Bounce Back 1 Week 2: Group Zoom Call - Professional Goals and Personal Aims

Amazing. 35 of you. There should be more.

It's a lot of people.

So your hopes and dreams are obviously somewhere far, far away. Oh, look at this. Yeah. Star Trek.

Hi to everybody.

Hi. Hello. Hi, everybody. I just said to the guys I've made it a space theme only because the background behind me is horrible. So I just thought let's just do a virtual thing, nothing fancy, so. Oh, hang on, that's a background. So can I. I'm just. Sorry, just a little bit of bureaucracy here. So if I make host, Katie, I'm going to make you the host. So can you keep omitting people on the right hand side? Just allow them participants.

Yeah, I've got waiting room, so that's fine.

Admit everybody.

Yeah. And I'm unmuting everyone.

Yes, Just lets everybody in. Here's my lovely podcast mic. Would you guys see it? Oh, yeah. They go, all right. Have we done 100th podcast? It's amazing, right? Everyone can hear me, which is great. You can't see this. I'm now seeing you on a massive screen. That's better. How's the sound? Coming through. Everyone, can I have a thumbs up from everyone in the room, please?

Yeah.

Thank you, Kieran. That's good.

Very good.

That's fantastic.

Thumbs.

Gabriella's got an amazing picture of balloons there, but she just wants to get away from everything in lockdown. Your headset is connected. Someone's connected. Wow. Right. Should we get into it? Oh, yeah, someone's getting into it. Someone's kids is like some joining us as well. They're like. Yeah. Right, for this week, I was going to start slightly differently, but only just so most of you were on the call last week, so thank you very much. I don't know which side it is. Let me do this. Yeah, that side, that's a recannon. She runs the treasury analyst to up to assistant treasurer and then that way someone put the baby away. Katie Hardy, European desk. Now, whoever's got a kid, mute that kid. Amazing. Casey, you can actually mute everyone just like till we get into it. Then we start throwing insults a bit later. Yeah. So I just thought I'd do try and give you a lot. As much information as we can. Katie runs our international desk, so some of you might have known her, met her. Dara Connolly. I know we've met before in Luxembourg and we've all caught up on various bits. So we cover all years, all countries, all levels. And I literally set up this program expecting 20 of you, just thinking you'd fill a screen and that'd be it. And I'm delighted that we have over 250 people. Casey, keep an idea, keep saying to me, admit some more people. I don't know if they're all admitted.

I haven't got any more to admit at the moment. I have now.

Yeah, there you go. Amazing. So the purpose of this zoom each week is to answer any questions you may have. They can be directed to myself, to Katie, to Aira and for us to get to know you better as individuals and also any suggestions you've got so we can improve the program because we're going to rerun this. We also want to answer your questions and people at start, so you can start to use the chat box on the side. This week, obviously the focus was on personal goals and areas, whereas next week we're going to be doing more of the standard recruitment stuff a little bit around your CVs and resumes and things like that. Now I'm going to say thank you to the people that didn't send me your homework because it's your homework. I don't want it. I'm not answering. And we've got 60 people's about your personal hopes and dreams and everything else. It's for you guys and it's for you to, you know, to answer and to think about a bit of self reflection, which I think a lot of people in treasury don't bother to do. It was good to see some of those things, but what I mean is I don't want to you send it to me and then me not deliver to you. In the time, you know, next week the assignments are going to be more around CVs and the typical recruitment of resumes and yeah, we're going to deep dive with that. Katie's done some amazing materials for you and I think that's really going to help. Now as I jump across, go into the second pages. Wow, amazing. Exit full screen. Now, what have we got chat wise? We got any chats, any questions?

Just to let everybody know you are muted just because of the volume of people. So if you did want to physically ask a question, then you would need to unmute yourself.

Yes, that's all. Nodding. Yes, a couple of nodding and stuff like that. And I can see a few people, so do nod if you are there. So let's do the group chat over here. Now, Ava, I know we had a question earlier from someone which I was trying to print out and just grab a copy of. Have you got the. Do you know the question or what? We were focusing on.

It was kind of. I think the question was based more about how personal goals fit in with your career. Yes, I sort of why you guys think it's important to have your own personal goals with your career goals and be good to kind of hear some of your thoughts, really some of the.

Balances and stuff like that. I think that's what Kate and then Katie and I are optimical. So I think a lot of you guys, you spent. You work so hard throughout the day and then, you know, get to the end of it restless and then you think, hang on, why did I just do that day? You know, that was one of the things that was coming back to me from someone's goals early and they sent, you know, their fat. I'll just bring up some of my emails, actually I did get a couple of them and they were saying, you know, and one of the things I was saying to Katie that I hadn't bothered to do mine. I have literally haven't had a chance to look at mine yet because again, I've been too busy with this program, you know, with you guys and making sure, you know, it was actually coming up enough, you know, getting enough time for you guys to get the feedback and everything else. So do come up with questions. Come on. This is your, this is your forum. Let's jump in here. The key one here. Dismiss all bomb Katie, what sort of stuff? We had that sort of CV advice for next week. Apologies here. Yeah, this one here. So this was the assignment when we were coming through and this chap who is actually on the call, I'm not going to name name and actually wouldn't shame. I think actually some of them are quite admirable. But one of the key things was about very directed goals. You're very specific. One of the things we noticed here was looking at the current crisis, treasury and its real heart of things, which thought was fantastic. But one of the things they were looking about was six months doing this, aiming for this and achieving this amount of revenues and everything else. When we then got to the sort of softer personal aims, one of the things I've noticed. And again, I saw this from two other people as well and one actually just commented and said I've never thought about my personal goals. And I was just like, really? And they were like, yeah, I mean, bar to have a really healthy family life and everything else. They've actually not set out, they just got into treasury and cracked on really. I don't know what you'd sort of seen from it when you. Because Both you and I set out this work together, Katie, when you were actually, we were both writing out, we found it quite difficult, didn't we? Particularly about missions and things.

Yeah, definitely. And I think when anybody sort of is asked to sit down and really think about themselves and actually what it, you know, what you want out of life and how the two sort of marry up together, I think people will always slip into it always ends up being geared more towards your professional goals. And actually, because we're so busy all the time, and because you guys work in an extremely pressured and hectic arena, you don't really have that time to really think about you personally. So it's always quite. When, you know, through all sort of training that I've ever done, when we've kind of asked people to do that, they've kind of gone, oh, that's much harder. Whereas doing the smart professional goals is much easier because people have a clear idea in there in their mind. But when it comes to personal, nobody really does. And if they do, it's very short term, it's not sort of longer term.

And on the Zoom chat. Thank you. This is great, actually, because it's gone to everyone, if everyone's looking. I don't know if you guys can see your chat just at the bottom of your screen, you can highlight it and it pops out onto the sidebar of your screen. Great question from Michael. Michael, feel free to unmute yourself because I think it's fantastic, this question. Where are you? Michael? Put your hand up, wave at the screen. Oh, there's so many of you. Where is he? Is he here? Michael, are you here? Come in, Michael. There you are, unmuting. If you're on mute, he's on the screen. No, it's quite. He's not unmutable, so maybe he's just listening. And he basically was. Fantastic question. He said, personal goals. Definitely missing some aspects. Let's get experience in hedge debt offerings, but other resources. So there was a working knowledge of these items. Now what I'm wondering is. Oh, you mean debt offerings and share buybacks, because obviously you've got CTP programs, you've got act, or if you're actually talking about more of the personal stuff. So maybe, you know, if you are looking working well, working leverage to have some working knowledge of these items. Well, we can reach out some of our treasurers and I can actually ask for you. Maybe I'll put that on LinkedIn and we'll see if we get some feedback from some of you guys.

Can you hear me now?

Yeah, I muted you.

Sorry, I found you and I muted you.

Is that what you. Michael?

Yes, yes. So, I mean, I have my personal goals, like one of them is to play. I'm in the US so I want to play golf in all 50 states. And you know, that's, you know, I have personal, personal goals like that. But, you know, I've spent a lot of time on my education. You know, I have my master's in finance, I have my mba, I'm a CTP professional as well as I have my FP and a certification. And there's pieces in my career that I feel like I'm missing. Like I mentioned the hedging, debt offering, share buybacks and those things where I'd really like to at least get some working knowledge of that. And it's part of my personal goals because I really want to be as well rounded in treasury as I can be because I figure I probably have 30 or 40 years left to work and I want to be as marketable as I can for those 30 or 40 years.

Can I chip in here? Yeah, Michael, it's Cyrus. So I worked in London for 30 years, first as an accountant, then as a credit structure and then as a treasurer. And I have had that all rounded experience. The one thing I would say to.

You is.

It'S quite interesting from an employer's perspective, sometimes they look at that all round experience and say, well, doesn't look like you really know what you want to do because your experience is too wide. And I think the issue about getting that experience academically is that it's then very difficult to actually put it into practice at a high level without actually having some real practical experience. And so it is a bit of a catch 22 that you have there. And when I look at your chat and you want to get a consultancy off the ground, it's probably a case that you want to get a working knowledge of it. But then in terms of building a consultancy, partner up with somebody who does have those skills and then can bring them to your clients together.

One of the other things I was just. Michael, you're obviously based in the us as you say, you remember the NOI Group at all. I am not basically what we'll do. I'll send this out to people as well. Joseph Noy, he was a guest on the podcast quite a few weeks ago now. And Joseph, many years ago he got into the sort of support peer group side of Treasury. Wasn't a Treasury professional himself, but he just loved getting things just as you described there Michael People had gaps in their knowledge. He loved to help them find ways to study it. There's a lot of the time at that stage, certainly when he was doing it 20 years ago, there weren't real programs actually did that. And actually on the podcast we go through and he sort of labors upon a little bit, but you know how he did that and everything else. But he's a real giving guy. And the NOI group, actually I know that they. What's the word? They sort of support people in that way. You can go to some of the groups are free and I'll connect the two of you. But also they get some of the big corporates. They also tailor them with different things. And Ann Freeberg as well, wonderful lady. So they can, you know, they're definitely going to make recommendations and really help as well. And just going down. Sorry. And I hope that does that answer it a little bit, Michael?

Yeah, that definitely helps. And if you could connect with us.

We'Ll do that as well. It's an interesting one actually. Julie and I totally. Well that you said you fell into the treasury role and maybe you comment on this. Where are you? Wave. Wave to me. Julie, I saw you in a moment. Julie Fabres, come back. You run for a cup of tea. She's coming back. There you are.

Yes.

Just explain what you. Well, if you would. You just gave a really good question. Really good.

Well, yes, as I say, my background, I've been sort of like in treasury pretty much all my career. I started off as a chartered accountant. So I've had over 25 years experience in treasury. And I have to say I fell into it to start with. Loved it, loved the variety. And as you guys probably mostly do as well, I've just sort of skipped from job to job to job. And I think that it's all very well having your personal goals, but some of it has to be like market driven. Like what's in the market there for you? What job's out there for you? Is it a job that you're going to enjoy? Are you going to enjoy the challenge of it? And I kind of like think of it that way, you know, and then have a look at the industry, have a look at the company, have a look at the people you're working with and do they kind of suit and fit with, you know, your own, I suppose, goals, but trying to keep them a little bit loose, not to be so rigid. I think, you know, if you want to go for a specific thing, you know, is the market available for you to be able to do that.

Yeah. And I think also what I suppose there were sort of, since we sent me probably sending out a bit late, we this week we're going to be getting stuff out a bit earlier about CVs and resumes, but in particular when people were coming back to me and we'd started to set out the personal aims and goals, it was a little bit fluffy, if that's the right way. And you guys are very factual when you're in Treasury. You know, like, this is the debt buyback, this is what. This is the prices and everything else. And, you know, the feedback I was getting from a lot of people, they were like, oh, this is my softer side, this is my emotional side, EQ and everything else. And both again, Katie and I, when we sort of put our heads together and we're doing this, I struggled with it. I really did, because, you know, I got some training a couple of years ago from a mentor, Chris Ducker, and he does an entrepreneurship thing and everything else. And he's sort of very much more in touch with that side. I'm not. But actually one of the things that we did was there was this sort of mission book actually, and I'll perhaps again include the. But here, this mission, and it's about what you're grateful each day and what you're thinking about and actually touched into that I thought was a little bit, you know, the book itself is you have to do. You have to do every day and every week. And I ended up doing it every week, which I thought was very useful, but it definitely helped. You know, that was one of the things I found. So, yeah, so we had great advice from Cyrus. Come on, what other guy? What other things we thinking Anyone really struggled with the assignment and getting in touch with their. The softer side. Mr. Mundt. Edwards? No, you were fine. You were completely in touch with your inner self, were you?

Oh, of course, Michael.

So tell us, how did you find it?

You know, it always is challenging, but, you know, having having done this in the past, it's just so vital to write it down on paper. And, you know, I always kick myself because whenever I take the time to do that, I always achieve everything on the list, which is great.

Yeah.

But you know, I should do it a whole lot more. And people who don't definitely should, because it's extremely helpful.

Cool. Thank you, sir. Well, I think you're right and I think again, it's when you guys are very practical, you just crack on and get stuff done, which is one of the key things. I've got a question here about someone targeting a career shift. What would you give advice to trying to move into treasury specifically for internationally focused opportunities? Well, give me a call and then we'll sit down and talk about it. Really? Well, in fact, no, give Katie a call. She's much better than me. You see that already. Katie, what would you say to this question by Alex on side recovery, treasury targeting as current function because market risk doesn't have quite the long term. So what advice would you give someone trying to move into treasury specifically for internationally focused. I think it's the best place to be, isn't it? That's all you do. You guys are all focused on international.

Yeah, it is. And I think, you know, we can have a, we can definitely have a chat, Alex offline about it in regards to how to sort of make that move. I think what I'm finding is that a lot more potential employers are getting more open. But I think again, it's a lot to do with how you can present yourself on your cv, which next week will help picking out the skills and the achievements that you have that can be transitioned across. So. But yeah, definitely something we can talk about outside of this. I'll make a note and contact you.

Okay, great. Thank you very much. Appreciate it. And one of the things. So then another question I had in here with Kieran, you were then talking about with Alliance Share, being in banking and things like that. And one of the people, you know, one of the things that I think Kieran and you and I discussed this as well, is the problem with having been in banking for quite a of time, period, period of time, is you become very, very specialist. You become an expert. Brilliant, amazing. But you say to someone. So you're the specialist cash management guy. Yeah, yeah, this is it. I'm brilliant. Great. We need you to do this foreign exchange deal. Oh, no, hang on. Somebody else does that. No, hang on. You're the treasurer now. That's your job. That's what you have to do. It's the cross training aspects of that and that's where things like the ACT can help CTP and things like that. I know you and I spoke about this, Kieran, and you're, you're doing stuff like that. Are you finding that working so far? You know, you mentioned there about finding a mentor as well.

Yeah, so you're absolutely right that I found that when I, when I try to call up recruiters and discuss the possibility of switching from the banking background to a corporate background, it is fairly Challenging. But I also get bizarre comments like, you know, because I switched around quite often, but fairly frequently within banking as well. So I have a broad depth. Sorry, a broad experience and.

But usually it's been.

You're right, I've been in liquidity and then they. I know I can talk about that all day long, but some of the aspects, I wouldn't have the comparable experience that some of the payers on this call would have and that it does become very challenging. But I found that one of the things you and I specifically talked about, you touched on just now is around the mentor piece and being able to reach out to peers and people that we can bounce ideas off of and trying to get together so that we can all, you know, go up the curve a little bit in terms of our knowledge base. I think to circle to what Alex was saying earlier about switching from market risk, I did that. That was my first role. I started off in market risk and I moved to treasury because I developed a relationship with, in a professional manner, the treasurer. And so I was able to pivot over to treasury and get my experience that way. But the switch from out of banking to corporate, I haven't made that jump just yet.

And I think that blends across to something. Michael Glazer, you just mentioned there, you said that over the past couple of years you've noticed requirements. I don't think requirements have changed, Micah. I think you say that some potential employers are looking for people who can do everything. Whatever personal goals you might have, it might not work. I think there's just greater pressure. In simple terms, I think that I said this a bit on last week's call, so bears repeating, but I think that people are asking people to do, you know, you have to hit the ground running. They don't have a training time. If you're a CFO and you're replacing a treasurer, I get treasurer, I get cfo. Some say, oh, I want something to do, something new. I want to something. You knew, brilliant. This is fantastic. Someone's gonna do something new. And they go, yeah, give me a second, hang on. And then they just reach down the bottom, they get out of the job, the job description and they cross out the day. It's a 2014, 2020. They go, there you go, this new one. And I'm like, oh, so you want a new kind of treasurer then? And they went, yeah, but not that new. Someone said, oh, so you want a six year old model? Yeah, yeah, just the same, please. And that's the issue. I think there's a great pressure on CFOs, on finance directors, I think actually on all the people on this screen. And I think if you guys were recruiting a Treasury analyst, how many times would you say you just get out the old job description, you try and fluff it up a bit, maybe change your treasury management system you used or anything else. I won't ask you to put name and shame you, but I think a lot of people on this call will find that if you look back and you get sent a job description, a lot of the time you'll find it's one that's been reused five times over. And I think that's the issue that people aren't moving with the times. And Ava, you find this a lot of the time, don't you, that you're sort of having employers where you're sort of trying to coach them, particularly about systems and things.

Yeah, I think as well, sort of the battle sometimes can be with internal recruitment. So you may have sort of your own guys in your companies and you're saying to them, find me a Treasury manager, that's all very well, but you'll give them a list and you'll say must be act qualified or must have experience and sort of be very, very capable in all this. But then what if I have a candidate, he's not act qualified but could do the job, easy peasy, great person would fit in the team. Sometimes just because of one thing, that's it, they're not counted. So it's really sort of, I think as treasurers, especially now, sort of the markets bit quiet, it's gonna start picking up guys, positive vibes. I think it's just kind of maybe having a bit of a bigger picture and I think a lot of companies need to be a bit more open minded in as to what they want from their treasury professionals. Because you guys are literally saving companies at the moment. So well done. So a lot of people are going to want you guys in the future and I think it's just having that open mindedness.

And I was asked actually pre this it was a bit more of a markets question. So I didn't want to bring up too early but one of the questions they said, you know, where do we think it's going now? And obviously lockdown every three weeks. Brock Boris is like for the uk, but we've got so many more international people on this as well. One of the key things is that I've always said that I thought we will start to see a loosening enough that people will start to make the move face to face interviews, obviously with your 2 meter gap by the beginning of July. And they were like, yeah, great. And I said, when are the quietest two months of recruitment in the entire year? Oh, yeah, July and August. So I do think the market's going to recover. I don't think that treasury is going to be as affected in a recessionary sense than other areas, if you like, but I think we would come out of it just as everything's getting quiet anyway. So I think it's going to be more towards sort of come September. There's going to be churn, there's going to be movement and things like that. I don't know if you guys think the same. I mean, some of you have been recruiting, some of you on the other side of it and seen recruiting process just suddenly stop. Avery, you saw it as well. Katie, yours seemed to sort of lag on a little bit. We didn't with Europe that your processes and you would carry on recruiting whilst Avery and I were just sitting there having cups of tea.

Yeah, yeah, I think I mentioned it last week as well. I think in Europe, the whole, the whole piece around them doing virtual interviews is a lot more common and a lot more normal way of, and the way of the process than it is in the uk. I think going back to the point about employers wanting to have somebody who's already doing all those things. I know a couple of the roles that I'm actually working on now. You know, going back to Mike's point, one of the roles has been newly created because actually the Director of Treasury physically can't now focus on the operational side because he's being pulled to deal with the external portfolio. So actually that's why the roles come up. But actually he hasn't got time to train somebody, which is why he's very specific in what he's looking for. But yeah, I mean, Europe, it's been going on for the process has been with everything very, very, very, very drawn out. And I don't. And I believe that's probably while things are kind of moving and shifting. I've had a couple of people that are looking to. They've started their role with a business in France, but they're waiting to see how they can physically relocate out, out there. So it's moving slowly, but it's still there. Not as, not as free flowing as we've seen prior to coronavirus, but within Europe it's still there.

Umar, I'm going to come back to your question, which I think great Actually on the sidebar here, just two or three things I want to. So next week, by the way, we're going to be doing CVs and resumes so yeah, so I'll pick apart a few of those but we're going to try and not make it too personal. Nasty if you like. Excuse me. Week after it's gonna be LinkedIn. So focusing on some of that's why I've been trying to chase you down for your registration forms and that's when I will get personal. Oh yeah, there's gonna be some naming and shaming, not mentioning too many names yet, you'll know and actually then the week after we're gonna be doing virtual interviews as well and so giving you some more tips about that going forward. Umar, you just mentioned I'm about to have a coughing fit so I might have to mute myself for two seconds. Could we touch on the difference in working and treasury across banking versus corporates? Would be great to get some insight turns to work as anyone works across both. So actually yeah, please do contribute if anyone wants to. I mean my marketing insight, the compensation side of things, compensation corporate to banking, you're probably looking at a 25 to 30% step up minimum. You become quickly a specialist in one area. Is it easy to move back to the other area? No. Do I get treasurers from banks every day emailing me hey, hey, I want to get to corporate? Yes. Do they make the move across to a corporate? No. Why? Well, because a lot of them actually have a different set of skills. They might be called treasurers but they're not actually treasurers, not corporate treasurers as such. They don't have the breadth of experience in cash management, in FX and everything else. Not to say their skills are any less valued but the things that they have are different. So they are ares, they are alm, they are alcos, they are liquidity risk and they're much deeper sometimes than any corporate treasurer will need to be. So it's not a criticism of a corporate treasurer's experience. They don't need liquidity risk. So I mean a couple of the guys, if you please unmute yourselves and jump in sort of thing. So regulation banking, Alistair. That's a great one. Yeah. So Alistair, over to you. Stroke meekly, Mr. Glaser. Either of you guys jump in there?

Well, I made a switch in 2005 after a seven year career in banking, mostly in corporate banking and cash management, GTS services and I got an opportunity to move to one of my clients who were setting up their treasury in Switzerland. And then it was a learning on job and got all the opportunities by the CFO and got my qualifications in Swiss certified treasurer and later on a master in NYU Stern in risk management. So I just got the opportunity to move which was not common and even going to a client was not common common. So yeah, sometimes you have to be lucky.

But with that, what did you find the biggest switch in terms of corporate banking? Banking, corporate. Was it that specialism?

No, it's yes and no. You only deal if you're on a banking side. You deal with a lot of clients on one subject. If you're on a corporate side, you have multiple banks, multiple subjects and multiple issues to deal with. So it's not one stop, one item thing. So it was everything. I went from cash management to funding, pricing up until. Yeah, all what was involved with setting up a Treasury in Switzerland.

Yeah, very different as well.

So it was for me like I was, I don't know how you. I don't know if that's expression is in English. I was just like I was hanging loose and left the CVO let me fall, just make sure I didn't fall too far. But he picked me up when needed.

But on job and anyone else wanted to contribute.

Yeah. So I used to run finance and treasury and risk management for a large multinational corporate. And when I was looking to find candidates, I know I reach out to you and other folks. It was a challenge. I put out requests for treasury analysts or managers and I get banking submissions. And I found it really hard to hire people from banking for a corporate simply because like you guys mentioned, they had experience in FX transactions or managing an FX desk or some other part of liquidity. But in corporate treasury you're generalist. So part of your job is accounting and bank recs and dealing with wires and other groups and business units. So it's very broad set of skills that lend itself more to a generalist. So you would have to, if you brought somebody from banking, you'd almost start to have to start from scratch in some respects to do a broad based generalist type of Treasury. And I imagine it's the same thing trying to go the other way. If you're trying to get into banking, if you don't have that specific skill set that what you're going into, it's a learning exercise and depending on where you are in your career path, whether they're willing to train you or bring you on at that level.

Well, and that leads into. George has just asked a question in the sidebar. He was a Treasury manager. He's just been made redundant. What's my view on taking a junior role like treasury analyst to get back working? No, I don't think it would count against you. Depending on the role. You don't want to take too small a role because you're going to get bored, you know, sometimes. And, you know, I get this as well sometimes. There's a couple of people actually here, we talk about age as well. And people say, oh, you know, they, you know, they're being ageist. They're not sometimes being ageist. Sometimes the client's going, look, you just will put you forward for the job. And we'll always put you forward. But the client will come back and say, the problem is you've already got enough experience. You could just do this job in your sleep. And they will be nervous about that. So it's perhaps finding a Treasury analyst job that's wide enough for you, that's going to challenge you enough. I mean, George, did you come from banking or from banking to corporate or which side? No, I'm still from corporate, Mike. So it was more just to get back working and then seeing where that role could probably take me. I guess I'm sort of at the moment thinking, geez, I don't want that to count against me. Maybe I just need to be patient. I don't think you'll ever count against you. I think someone says, hang on, you took a drop back. I think if something, you just sit there twiddling your thumbs and let your skills go. You don't want to go back too far to a junior treasury assistant job. You know, be that. I know that Ara definitely love to help, but it's more. Or Katie or I. You know, the fact is it's about making sure you get the right role and the right breadth of experience. And one of the other questions I was asked as well, Akos, you just asked the split between corporate and banking. You know, side, this is the roles we recruit. So the roles we recruit, we're looking at probably about 90%. Well, 90% of corporates and 10% are banking. And the banking roles, we don't really chase after banking roles come to us. That's simply, what's the word, A practical thing. When I was at Robert Walters many years ago, I used to do a lot more banking stuff. But then it was a race to the bottom. As the markets crashed, they were like, oh, we want to recruit. Can you recruit for us at 15%, you know, or 20%? They're 15 and then 10, I was like, no, I was out at 20, I was that way back. We do recruit banking roles, but they are Group treasury roles or Group Risk roles. So alm. So recent roles I've recruited the global treasurer for Group Treasurer, Vanquish bank, group treasurer, national bank of Kuwait based in London, both of those. And then we've recruited some of their team members and we've recruited some international roles as well. But they are group risk and ALM type roles sort of thing. Julie, you've asked about the move from Treasurer to cfo. Same question for Treasurer to Deputy Finance when you say that. Because obviously our focus is treasury, but we do then see people moving. Where are you on my screen, Julie? Julie, you're up in the corner. Go for that.

No, actually I was just going to comment on your last piece about taking a more junior role and maybe being a bit bored, which I totally get. I went for an interview once and they said to me, will you look too experienced and overqualified for the role? And I sort of turned around and said, well, if you think so, then give us a, give us a job on four days a week. So I managed to get like a part time treasurer role which suited me at the time because I had young kids. So again it comes back to sort of like my personal goals then, you know, that was achieved at that time. So just something to think about.

Yeah, yeah.

So I was kind of like a bit lucky there, I suppose, but yeah, it worked out.

But the previous question, what about the move from treasurer cfo?

Yeah, I mean, yeah, I mean I sort of like feel as though it's something that maybe has always been a sort of like a divide if you like, because a lot of the trip, what a treasurer does, it sort of does overlap a little bit into, into a CFO type.

Right.

Maybe a little less on the commercial side. But I mean, you know, in your experience, have you seen that? Have you seen that move? Is it difficult to do still? I mean, you know, I think it's.

Getting, I'd say slightly easier from, you know, I've been in 22 years and I've seen it more recently. But when I've been talking to treasurers, I think treasurers are more front and center a little bit as well. I think, you know, your role is close to the business, you're more commercial. Not that you were less commercial before, but it's like Treasury 20 years ago became this like slightly ivory towered act or you get pay rise if you're a treasurer. All special. Special. Yeah. You get a bit more kudos, a bit of higher salary, but actually counted against you because it was like, what does the treasurer do? I would dunno, just give him the money or her the money. Give them the money and they'll look after it and do that stuff. And then I think actually what I've seen increasing and brilliantly in past three to five years is that treasurer's taking on more stuff. So one in particular guy who's recently taken a deputy CFO role. It's not quite been announced yet, but he took on investor relations, he took.

On.

Some of the FPLA stuff. It wasn't. But he sort of took on more responsibility every time. He just kept putting his hand up. I think he crafted for himself a deputy CFO role. So when the CFO is going, he's being seen as the natural successor, but, you know, he's a lead player. Well, in fact, I've been told recently he is going to get the job. They just wait for official confirmation, you know. Oh, I've got surprise, you know. So that's what I'm seeing more. But I think it's when you get close to the business, you know, that's, you know, John, you said here you have to FB and a roll financial controller before considering you could do that. That's definitely one thing. If you're making your way up, become an assistant treasurer, then maybe do a wider role. I think that certainly works. But I've actually now seen more and more treasurers who have taken a broader breadth of treasury role within two or three different companies. Got a wider breadth and then making the move to FD or CFO as well. Another one, Steppy Stone. Corporates by side, treasury departments, much smaller. Yes, agree with that, Cyrus. Andrew, look at the course. There's treasury business, labor. Yeah, so. So, guys, anything else before we wrap up? We try and keep it to about half an hour, 40 minutes. I know the next week's gonna be fun with some CV stuff. Katie, are you looking forward to it?

I am. It's my favorite part.

Yeah, we're gonna get you lot. This is gonna be great. We're gonna name a shame a few, I think. Ira, any good bits about, you know, some of the bits which we love, where this lot say they're really motivated and flexible. Yeah, yeah.

I mean, sort of. It's good to actually see some of your faces because I think I've spoken to a few of you on the phone but never actually seen your faces, so it's lovely to see them but I think sort of. I think next week is going to really help some people. I've seen a few people CVs before and I think. So next week is really going to help you kind of see what we would use, how we would format and also how it's best to represent yourself. There's no point. You kind of put in a waffly bio so just kind of think how is the best way to sell you? So you don't want. You just want to get straight to the point. But I think it's been good to hear your views. I've really enjoyed it. Sorry I wasn't here last week and.

What we'll do as well. Paola, you got a question? What we'll try and do is collate some of the other questions. We'll also share the transcripts a bit quicker this time as well because again, we couldn't share it last time just because there were so many non treasury people that had registered as well. So we had to sort of do a bit of a filtering campaign for two or three days, which was a little bit challenging. But anyway, it's great to see you all and look forward to next week. So that'll be fun. Thank you everybody. Thank you. This particular guy who's recently taken a deputy CFO role, it's not quite been announced yet, but he took on investor relations. He took on, you know, some of the FP and A stuff it wasn't but he sort of took on more responsibility every time. He just kept putting his hand up. I think he crafted for himself a deputy CFO role. So when the CFO is going, he's being seen not as the natural successor, but he's a lead player. Well, in fact, I've been told recently he is going to get the job. They just wait for official confirmation and being asked, oh, I've got surprise. So that's what I'm seeing more. But I think it's when you get close to the business that's. John, you said here you have to FB and A roll financial control before considering you could do that. That's definitely one thing. If you're making your way up, become an assistant treasurer, then maybe do a wider role. I think that certainly works but I've actually now seen more and more treasurers who have taken a broader breadth of treasury role within two or three different companies. Got a wider breadth and then making the moves as FD or CFO as well. Another one, Steppy Stone. Corporates by side treasury departments. Much smaller. Yes, agree with that. Cyrus, Andrew, look at the course. There's treasury, business, labor. Yeah, so. So guys, anything else before we wrap up? We try and keep it to about half an hour, 40 minutes. I know the next week's gonna be fun with some CV stuff. Katie, are you looking forward to it?

I am.

It's my favorite part actually.

Yeah, we're gonna get you lot. This is gonna be great. We're gonna name a shame a few, I think. Ira, any good bits about some of the bits which we love with this lot say they're really motivated and flexible. Yeah, yeah.

I mean, sort of. It's good to actually see some of your faces. Cause I think I've spoken to a few of you on the phone but never actually seen your faces. So it's lovely to see them. But I think sort of, I think next week is gonna really help some people. I've seen a few people's CVs before and I think. So next week is really going to help you kind of see what we would use, how we would format and also how it's best to represent yourself. There's no point you kind of put in a waffly bio. So just kind of think how is the best way to sell you? So you don't want. You just want to get straight to the point. But I think it's been good to hear your views. I've really enjoyed it. Sorry I wasn't here last week.

And what we'll do as well. Paola, you got a question? What we'll try and do is collate some of the other questions.