Broadening Your Treasury Career with Richard Garry

Hello, it's Mike Richards here from the treasury recruitment company. I hope you're enjoying the Treasury Career Corner. If you are great news, perhaps you give us a rating on itunes or wherever you consume your podcast content. This means that even more treasury professionals can benefit from finding out, or by finding out about how treasurers have achieved their career goals. The link to rate our show will list at the bottom of our show notes. And please remember as well, the show itself is as much about you as it is about us. There are specific questions you want us to ask or there's feedback you want to give. Please drop me an email. My direct email is mikeresuryrecruitment.com inventibly enough, but anyway, that's enough from me. Let's get on with the show.

Welcome to this week's Treasury Career Corner podcast, where I interview treasury professionals about their treasury careers. Every week I talk to treasurers about how they built their careers, where they are now and where they see both themselves and the treasury profession going to next this week's show. Delighted to be joined by Richard Gary, Group treasurer of Informa Group. Now, for those that don't know, they're a FTSE 100 company based in the UK, in fact in London, but they're a multinational events, publishing offices, over 43 countries, 11,000 employees. Richard and I have known each other for many years, so we'll get into that. Let's start off today's show. Richard, you originally started as a finance graduate, so you, you thought that was it finance and then treasury was your calling from when you were a young lad, was it?

No, not quite. Mike studied a pretty generic degree, which kind of gave me a few options in terms of what I wanted to do. So I had a look around at those. So I settled on the finance scheme of British Airways, which served me well, gave me a good grounding in accountancy through the SEMA qualification. And then from that I moved on to Reuters and again an accounting role. After a while, a job came up in treasury and thought, oh, that great, that would take a box. I'll do that for 18 months or so. Went in and the group treasurer said, yep, we think you'll fit into the team, but you must do treasury qualifications. They were very supportive. So I did that and then I was hooked. Never left.

You say you hooked. What was it about the treasury then that you were like, oh, this is a place I want to stay. What was it that grabbed you then?

In those early days, it seemed like real finance. So. And I started off in a Cash management role, just trading. I say trading, just managing the sterling cash positions. Reuters was generating a huge amount of cash, just getting money in, putting it on deposit, looking where it could be placed on deposit. And then about halfway through my 18 month there, they decided to restructure the balance sheet. So the treasurer got me involved in some of that work around debt and I just kind of found it was just a live piece of finance. It wasn't just counting numbers and kind of presenting reports to your manager. It was actually doing real transactions, which I found quite interesting.

You were there what, four years? What were you looking for next or what happened?

There's an established team at Reuters. I did my qualifications and I just wanted to broaden my experience and at the same time some life choices around. I had a young family, I didn't want to be working in central London anymore. And a role came up which was a bit closer to home, broader treasury role. So I went to work for the financial services arm of Toyota and a great opportunity to grow with them as they're expanding their business. Lept on the opportunity which was presented to me.

People are going to know Toyota as a car company and everything else. I know from personal experience some of the guys I've met with Toyota, both over in Asia, right the way across the world, they're very innovative with a lot of the financing they do and things. So what was the involvement or how does financial services operate in conjunction with Toyota main group? Or explain that.

Toyota is an auto company, it makes cars, that's what it does. And it's very famous in its Toyota production system as well. Everybody's heard of things like just in time and continuous improvement. But they use finance to help sell their cars. You walk into a car showroom, you see these deals. £179amonth, 0% down. That's provided in most terms for brand new cars by the auto finance companies. That's part of their business. Another part of their business is helping their dealerships stock their cars. All the cars you see in their forecourt are generally financed by the auto finance companies on short term working capital loans. There's quite a big business for the auto companies and for some of the auto companies it's bigger than the automaker itself. Toyota, that's not the case. They see themselves foremost as a car manufacturer. But yes, it's a big balance sheet. I was there, which was over 10 years ago now. The balance sheet was north of $120 billion across the world.

Amazing. And how was Toyota structured in so far as you were based in Europe, how was it? Did you just report to someone a million miles away? Or what was the structure, if you like, around treasury fees?

Yeah, it was a really interesting journey. I was at Toyota for 10 years as well. So it started off very much siloed. I was the treasurer for Europe and Africa. My role was about funding the Europe and Africa balance sheet and expanding Europe Africa business as we kind of moved into new territories. But as I say, with a balance sheet the size of Toyotas, you have to fund in the global capital markets and you find yourselves tripping over each other. Your colleagues, your US colleagues, your Australian colleagues, your Japanese colleagues. By the time I left, we did a lot of work in actually becoming a more coordinated finance function whereby we would work with each other on our transactions in various jurisdictions. And that meant actually we operated on a kind of global treasury basis from a coordination perspective. Now, I'm still responsible for Europe and Africa, but I spent a lot of time out in Asia or across in the US working with my colleagues and saying, well, how do we present a unified face to the markets? So colleagues really close. My direct reporting line was into Germany, as that happens, because we were financed at a bank in Germany for regulatory purposes. I reported into a German cfo, a mixture of coordination and report into Europe.

Then after that you did a series of different moves and different experiences, things like that perhaps touch on some of them, maybe more than others, because there were different periods at different companies. But you've got then car automotive, but then you've got high speed rail. Then before you eventually get into a publishing company, you've got engineering as well. So there's a bit of a theme there, but walk us through some of those other bits and we'll dive in a bit.

Yeah, that's really interesting. We may touch on later in terms of words of advice. You try and plan your career and sometimes things take a bit of a turn, which you don't expect. And some of the times it's about capitalizing on those unexpected, let's say, opportunities. So, yeah, I looked to leave Toyota, I'd say spent 10 very happy years there, but it was still a subsidiary of a large Japanese manufacturer. So I wanted to get exposure to PLC World to the board. So I moved and it's one of those moves that just didn't quite fulfill my expectations. So I went to an auto retailer and things just weren't as I wanted. So I decided to move on and took some interim roles, which actually turned out to be some nice, interesting work. I'VE done particularly you mentioned high speed rail. So I worked for the high speed rail, high speed one, which is the infrastructure from London St Pancras out to the Channel Tunnel. And they wanted somebody to go and refinance their acquisition debt. It was bought by two Canadian pension funds and they said, look, we've got this bank debt, we've got this asset for 30 years. Can you help us restructure our financing to match the life of the asset? And it was just a golden opportunity to do something I hadn't done before. Really interesting work with some very smart people internally at the pension funds, but also externally at some of the banks and advisors and had a great time.

So with that role, just going in there, private equity, you're an interim. We've got a show going to come up when we're going to talk about treasury interims and project treasury and things like that. Did you approach it as like go in. This is purely a project, do it, get it off the balance, get off the balance sheet, literally get it sorted and everything else. And also what was that like being an interim with private equity involved in there? Because they can be quite challenging or. Right, where's the numbers? What did you find?

Yeah, no, great question. So in terms of the role itself, it was definitely, it was a role. The objective was to. They had this asset, they owned it for 30 years. That was kind of the way it was. The draft is a concession. So the role was to go in, do the refinancing. It was a one time refinancing and get out. So that was very clear. So expectations right at the start and that was fine. So that was very clear for me in terms of working private equity, I think it was a soft instruction to private equity, shall we say. Canadian pension funds have a tried and tested approach to owning long term assets to manage their funds. So very much buy and hold type investors and run it in a very sensible manner. And they're very good at structuring, finding the assets, structuring the acquisition piece. But they need the expertise in terms of managing the debt and refinancing, which is where I came in. So I had a great experience. I think partly because of just the objectives they're looking for are different to, let's say other types of non pension fund ownership.

And then. So you did the role, it sort of lasted a set period of time. Were you then sort of looking for more stuff or did this come around or talk us through your IMI and stuff?

So yeah, the role, it was open to the Extent, you know that I left when a file. So it wasn't the case if you're in for 12 months and then it should be finished because you picture timing to enter the market and refinancing that. We were financing nearly 2 billion sterling of debt. So it wasn't a case of we're going to do it on the 31st of March and we're clear it's a case of what's the right opportunity. But you know, when a project's coming to an end. And at that time I thought, do I want to do more interim, Do I want to do more of the same, which I could have done with the same shareholders, or actually do I want to jump back into having more of a career, treasury career? And the opportunity came up which actually led me back down that path. Imi based in Birmingham. We're looking for a group treasurer. They were a Footsie 100 business. I thought actually, you know, whilst I've loved being an interim, I don't want to be doing start, repeat and leave, you know, for the next 30 years of my career. I wanted to build something else. And when the opportunity presents itself, I thought I'd grab it. So off I went up the M40 to Birmingham for three and a half years.

That was one of the things I was going to draw out. Some of the guys listening, they maybe, look, we talked before the show about people taking opportunities in different parts of the world. Mark from Johnson Controls made the move Belgium to Milwaukee to Asia Pacific. But now, okay, it's a bit different. You live in Sussex or based in Sussex, but then you're up to Birmingham. Do you then live up there? How did you operate that? Because that's quite a challenge. But it was like, I've got to go for this role or how did it work?

And I'll say, clearly Birmingham is the more glamorous location. So that was. That was clearly a draw. Yeah, look. So for me, I had. Didn't have a young family, but I had a, you know, a family where I had teenage children important to me to be around. So I took the choice to kind of do a half commitment commute, which was pretty tough. So twice a week I would. I would drive up and down the M40, say, from Sussex. I would stay a couple of nights at a. At a place which I'd arranged and I would try and spend a day a week in London, you know, which is given a role, you know, we're fortunate to do so I could, I could split my time between home and being away because that just suited my family at time, you know, my again, my advice there would be, you know, you've got to do what's right for yourself and be true to yourself as well. You know, family is important as working. So you've got to get that balance how I got the balance. But I say after three and a half years that was quite challenging. And so again other opportunities came along and I moved on.

And then Informa. Tell us about Informa perhaps and explain the business for those. IMI obviously is a footsie engineering business. And then you went. I know, publishing magazines, that's a natural step.

Yeah, Informa. It's a really great opportunity that came along. So as you say, it's FTSE, FTSE 100. It's been on a huge growth trajectory for the last five years or so. Mobitex, what do we do? You know, we provide business intelligence. We provide academic publishing, books and journals. We provide conferencing and events. People say, what's an event? The easiest way to break down an event is a trade show. It's that kind of thing and things people may have heard of. So I guess our most glamorous trade show is a Monaco yacht show based in Monaco. Every year we do the largest yacht show in the world in Fort Lauderdale in the autumn of each year. Publishing. Taylor and Francis is our biggest publishing brand. Routledge people might have heard of mainly psychology, social sciences, humanities and business intelligence, all of that. We're not a Reuters, we're not a Bloomberg, but we provide services like Lloyd's List for example, so maritime shipping for the insurance industry. So that might be something people have heard of. And Informa itself has just grown by consolidation over the last few years in 2014, new CEO, new CFO. And they set a path to grow by investing in the business. So just literally capital investments where it's required, but also by acquisition. And they've done a number of acquisitions and I've been lucky enough since joining in 2016 to seeing the company pretty much double its market cap as we've grown. Both those acquisitions, both by borrowing the funds, but also using our equity on.

Our balance sheet and solid revenues coming through from that business. Again, some of the listeners, they'll be in cyclical businesses up and downs, much more exposed to the market as such in the Windsor chain. Oh, hang on. We're going to make a loss next year just because this is happening. Much more solid trajectory with you guys. Much more predictable, would you say in treasury terms?

Yeah, definitely. We talk to our investors a lot about the predictability of our revenue. I mean first since we got kind of four business streams. So there's some diversification. Right. The publishing revenue stream, you're into libraries, you're into journals. It's kind of subscription based and in itself has a certain resilience through cycles. Just because it's. That it's a different kind of market. Has its own challenges, of course. Libraries and publishing budgets are certainly closely looked at, but more predictable than others. Then you go to the events business, you must say, well, events must be massively cyclical. And yes and no, we operate in very specific niche areas and areas where it's business to business, where it's fragmented, where trade shows become a driver for people's sales. That's important to turn up again, the politicality of the revenue comes from people booking up next year's show at this year's show. So we have a year in advance line of sight in terms of what's happening. And the cash flow is in a similar vein. People pay in advance, which makes for a healthy working capital position for the great.

And you know, describe how treasury is set up for you guys, you know, and how that impacts on it. Is big treasury team or what's the sort of breakdown?

Yeah, no, I think having somewhat worked in a number of places, I think it is a relatively good sized treasury team. We're centralized, we're based in London at the head office, literally just outside the office of the cfo. So we can make sure we're behaving ourselves. We run the kind of like a front office kind of transaction based operation in my team and what I call middle office or our infrastructure kind of team. Those who kind of do the plumbing, you know, the systems and the bank accounts and the sweeping sit with me and our back office kind of, you know, reconciliations. Accounting sits in our service center out in Colchester. We manage the global position, whether that be, you know, from revenue collection and make sure the cash comes back to the center to repay debt through to working very closely with our MA colleagues in terms of managing transactions, both structuring transactions, then of course on the execution side as well.

Well, and when you're splitting out the treasury responsibilities and coaching the team because obviously you've got a breadth of experience across Treasury. You know, what's your ethos for those guys? Are you wanting them to come in and right guys, let's streamline everything or are they coming back to you with look, you know, I've assessed this new system or how does it work? The interflow between you and the guys.

And stuff like that, you know, I like to give as much as I can and I wouldn't say that I manage it all the time. As much freedom as I can to the team to use their expertise. We hire talented people and I want them to use their talents. But some of it's driven by the business. I see our role is to facilitate the growth of the business. That's kind of what I talk about here. So big M and a transaction going on takes a lot of our bandwidth. We are definitely going to be focusing on that piece and some of the more bread and butter stuff, like to your point, streamlining our treasury, making sure our cash is working better, all those kind of cash pooling arrangements. Sometimes they take a bit of backseat when we're very, very busy, but then it flips around when there's pauses and we're not doing the M and A stuff. Then we can focus on looking at the. And again, my team's responsibility is to work with the business and kind of make sure that stuff is working as efficiently as it can. And I try to give them space so they can come up with those ideas and look at what's going on in the market and say, well, Richard, what about this, what about that? And we then put that into our plans. We work very much corporately as a team to grow the treasury in our organization.

Well, I've not really asked this in other podcasts, but I'm going to jump in here with goal setting. I know it sounds a bit of a weird one because I think it feeds back. I spoke to a treasurer a while ago and he, he's very much, you know, about empowerment and stuff like that. And the previous treasurer was exactly the same apparently, although he wasn't. Well, I remembered, you know, we were having a beer one day and he said, yeah, I've just had to cancel my week's meetings. What do you mean? He said, well, went in and we had the goal setting meeting for the year and this was back in the December, they were setting them up for the following year. They said, right, you know. And he was sat down and said, okay, these are your goals and stuff. How are you going to achieve them? And the treasury manager looked him quite blankly, said, no, no, that's not how this works. He went, what? He said, no, no, what is. You explain the goals and then you tell me how I'm going to do them throughout the year. And he said, but if you do that, you don't own them. You know, you're not. He said, I'm not being your mentor. I'm just being your bit of a big stick, telling this rather than a carrot. This is what we want to achieve together. And people talk empowerment, but that's what it means, you know, about owning that stuff. I know, Richard, actually, on a personal level and things like that. And I know that you're much more into that side of things, perhaps explain how you get there.

So our first step is to align with what the organization is doing. And it sounds a bit of a cliche, but it's absolutely true. You know, I don't want to be going off on a tangent with my team doing stuff which the organization just doesn't care about and doesn't support. So I first, what's the organization doing? What's this driving? What's my boss? What's important to him? And from that, we kind of set out broad. Well, this is what the department is aiming for. And literally. And again, it's a bit of a cliche. It kind of cascades down. You know, I have my objectives now. I will look at what my boss is doing, and I will set my objectives in line with that. And your point? I will set those myself. You know, I go to my boss and say, look, this is what I think I should be doing. Of course he'll challenge that, and of course he'll put some stuff in which he cares about. But broadly, it's kind of driven by me. I then try and take the same approach to the team and say, look, Tim, this is kind of the stuff that's important to the cfo. This is kind of what work kind of how I see it panning out broadly. What specific things do you think you should be doing, kind of which helps us get our goal as an organization, and then so they build them up themselves and they kind of, you know, so my direct reports will cascade that down to their reports and so on. And that way it means that when people are working, whatever they're working on, they know that it's going in the right direction to the business. So don't sit down in December and say, well, I've done this great thing. And I say, yeah, that's great, but actually what we need you to do is this other thing over here. And we haven't communicated. So getting it right at the start, but yet to your kind of earlier kind of example, making sure that people are setting their objectives and buying into their objectives right at the start, and then it's part of their job, so there's no surprises throughout the year. In terms of what they're doing, it's all along. Because that helps, you know, frankly, it helps me, you know, if my. For all heading in the same direction. I hit my objectives, my boss hits his and you know, the organization is doing the right, right thing as well.

Yeah. And there's ownership all the way through so that they're driving towards their own goals rather than your goals sort of thing.

So we try, we try and do things that are important. You know, people want training, you know, if people are looking to develop their careers, of course we. And that's important to people. Right. So we absolutely want to support them. So we will absolutely do that at the same time.

So looking back, you're treasury manager at Reuters to now group treasurer informal that what was the plan? You know, you were you back there going, oh, I want my boss's job one day or you know, and set about right, these are the steps I need to take. Or how did it sort of evolve over time really?

So sadly. So having your original question right back at the start that I always been a treasurer and me saying, well, I kind of fell into it once I had got into the treasury world. I kind of did say that actually, you know, I'm not sure I planned it and it's quite a step by step way, but I do remember saying to myself, look, actually I know I'd have made my career when I'm a FTSE1 treasurer. And at the very least it's in the back of your mind. And I think that probably even subconsciously then drives choices and decisions in terms of how you get there. So. Yes, but was it planned in the way that it's turned out? Absolutely not. And it comes back to that whole thing we talked about before about opportunities. You grab them, you take them and you kind of make it what you will. So broadly, yes, in detail, no, I think is the answer to that question of planning my career.

And when you look back across that, that period of time now there are, there are differences. When you started out, we talked about this on previous shows about manual processes and you know, a thing called a fax and all that malarkey. And we know people go really? But yeah, okay, systems have changed and everything else but that to one side and technology, because that is rise of technology and all that stuff. But in what other ways or any other ways have you seen treasury maybe change or evolve over the time you've been in it? You know, what was it like when you started, you know, maybe just a service to the. Or now this is what we do or how have you seen it change over your career?

Firstly, I think I was very lucky in being in some quite forward thinking organizations. I think when I started in treasury, the Reuters Treasury Department was actually pretty well plugged into the corporate center and was doing quite a lot of interesting stuff. And again Toyota is a financial services business. As a Treasury you're supplying the raw material, you're front and center from the word go. It's all about how do you do that efficiently. I think my perspective is a little bit different but in answer to your question, I think treasury is a broader profession than it used to be in terms of what it's doing and its centrality to delivering the corporate objectives is more embedded than it was. What I mean by that, I guess we're just looking at more areas of the business, we're getting involved in more things and then that may just be the way that we operate and the organizations I've worked to operate. But certainly I think it's broader and then it then really easily touches into what we would call adjacenc and it's not uncommon for many treasurers. I speak to many group treasurers at various functions and all of a sudden they're picking up insurance and you're picking up pensions. I've picked up those two things in the last couple of years. And there'll be other elements. It may be you're working in an airline and you're picking up the aircraft leasing business or whatever it might be. So I think that ability to turn those basic core skills around managing real assets as in the cash, managing real risks as in the value of that cash moves up and down and the foreign exchange that you're doing has real value to apply those to other role and again create that same mindset and bring those into your kind of your toolkit. I think that value of the treasurer has certainly broadened over the last 20 or something years.

I've been involved in talking about that increase in breadth and things and one of the things that I was going to highlight as well that you recently joined as a non exec over at Sovereign Housing. We recently actually helped Sovereign House, which is lovely, get their new group treasurer. So that's coming up. Looking forward to helping those guys. But how did you get involved or busy enough? Why become a non exec as well? What did that do for you? Why were you interested in that side of things?

Yeah, I guess it's two things. A big driver is development and it doesn't matter how senior you are, you can always be learning something and you can always be developing yourself and making yourself more valuable to your company or your future career, whatever that is. So I think a big part of it is that and becoming a non exec just gives you a different perspective. It helps me and it helps my company happy for me to do that. Because when I'm interacting with my board, if I have a non exact kind of understanding of what information is required, how the information is presented, the kind of decisions that a non exec has to make, I can interact with my board a lot better than I do today. So it's that development part of my career. The time is right and yeah, you're right, it's really busy and it requires a bit of discipline. But I think it's a worthwhile investment in my own career, which is why it kind of came up. Why now? Again, it's about opportunity and it's about sometimes these things take a lot of time to get off the clock ground. Sometimes they happen very quickly. I think mine was somewhere in between. So it was a case of saying, I need some development, here's an opportunity, let's grab it. And it's an industry I know nothing about and it's been great fun so far. Learning about how housing, the housing association sector operates and its challenges. Again, taking some of those learnings and apply them to what I'm doing here as well.

A lot of evolution in the sector as well, which is, yeah, it's fascinating times really, and looking from today and looking at that future because obviously that's, as you say, you're growing your non execs experience and everything else. What do you see perhaps next for you? And then as we actually broaden it out for treasury, in more general terms, is it technology and it's all that stuff or is it a combination of different things? Where are you seeing treasury going? What are you planning out for the next year? 2, 3, 5? As you're looking at that crystal ball.

In my immediate kind of area of influence, clearly, you know, the growth of my own business continues. We've grown as though we've grown a lot. We've doubled our market cap in the last three to five years or so and I think we've still got great ambitions to do more of that. So in terms of mapping out what I'm thinking about, it's like how do I continue to facilitate that growth? You know, how do we move from doubling in size to moving on again and meet my own expectations? So it's about developing our business and the Other piece, again, I think it is, it's a bit about, you know, pretty tool challenges utilizing technology, but not for technology's sake. There's a great temptation to get the latest toy, the latest gadget and say, yeah, we really, really need that. But actually if you take a step back and say, what do we actually need and what is helpful to us and what is the wise use of our resources and our time? I think that certainly think greater use of technology across the business is important to us as we go forward.

Not looking for the shiny toys, as you say all the time, oh, look, new tech. But does it actually have a practical implication for you guys sort of thing?

Believe me, I love a shiny toy, so I've got to be very disciplined with myself. You know, when somebody, along with the latest whiz bang kind of thing, it looks fantastic, but then you kind of, you take step back and again, actually one of the things in my team, we're a very open team and we're very good at cross checking each other and saying, actually, do we really need this? But that's really important to take that assessment.

Okay, as always, we wrap up or as we head towards the end of today's show, again, Richard has given permission in the show notes, you'll find the link to him on LinkedIn so you can connect to him as part of the network growing that as well. Well, but actually looking back over your time, you've got all these different roles. As you said, you started as a finance grad, came into treasury and then you've effectively made these steps and everything else and there'll be people listening today, go, actually that's exactly what I want to copy and things like that. What bits of recommendation are you going to give to? Actually, I was going to say a few different levels. So not just the, you know, treasury analyst listening, going, oh yeah, okay, you know, this is what I need to build in. But maybe guys at treasury manager gets the air gets a bit thin up the top. You know, there's only 100 FTSE, 100 group treasurer jobs and you know, but people are saying, right, how do I prep myself and get up to that level and things? What key pieces of advice would you tell those guys to do now and today and to plan for sort of thing.

I was going to give you four things and I'll try and keep them each relatively brief. Firstly, you know, learn your trade, you know, training, education, whatever that looks like. Clearly treasury exams, but kind of broader that just so learning the basics, you've got a strong Technical foundation that sets you in good stuff. My, my first ever manager, when I was doing accounting, said to me, said, richard, learn your double entry, learn your debits and credits, which is clickable and it's so true. You learn the basics, it really sets you up. So definitely, first, learn your trade. Secondly is work with smart people. Look for the smartest people in the room and go and work with them. You know, you'll learn an awful lot and you'll get a lot of. You kind of their credit will rub off on you because they're smart people. And I've been very lucky to work with some super, super smart people across the world in my career. Thirdly, be willing. You know, we talked a little before about opportunities, whatever it is, be willing to stuff, put yourself forward, grab those opportunities, develop yourself when they present themselves. And they don't have to be big opportunities like going to work in Asia. It could be a small opportunity like taking on another project or mentoring somebody or whatever it might be. So be willing. And the final piece, which I think is really important, actually, is being honest and true to yourself. Don't try and be something you're not. If you try and be something you're not, at some point it's going to find you out to be honest, to your strengths, to your personality, to your type. You will thrive. People will value you for that itself. And it's a bit like that cliche, I'm sure, Mike, you've had it plenty of times where people go for a job and absolutely can do the role and they don't get it and it's just simply they won't fit. Which is probably a good save because if they went somewhere that they didn't fit, they would hate it and within six months they'd won out. So being true to yourself, I think is pretty important as you think about your career.

An awesome foursome to finish off with. So we've got keep your training and education, get, you know, knuckle down to do that. Find some smart people. We'll put these actually in the notes, but find some smart people and follow them and emulate them, maybe follow in their footsteps, roll your sleeves up exactly as Richard said there, which is get stuck in. And as you say, being honest with yourself, I think, well, great little summary, four lovely bits of advice. You could write that down, the card, stick it in your wallet and just keep looking at that, I think, and it's a good direction to go in sort of thing. Well, Tom, thank you, mate. Great show today. Thanks for your time. As I say, we'll put Richard's link in the show. Notes, notes and all remains. Thank you very much, sir.

Thank you very much, Mike. Appreciate your time.

Cheers.