Building a Successful International Treasury Team with Jim McHale

Foreign.

So welcome to this week's Treasury Career Corner podcast and it's a rerun. We're going back to September 2020. This is myself and Jim McHale. Jim was at the time when we spoke, he'd recently been the corporate treasurer at Greybull Companies. So it was great catching up with Jim. At the time he was just on his way between roles and actually now we catch up with Jim in, well, a new role. But you'll get to hear about that at the end of the podcast. As always, let's get on with the show and let's talk to Jim now in his new home at Reconnext and everything else.

So let's get on with the show.

This week's show joined by Jim McHale, who was most recently the vice president, corporate treasurer of Greybull Companies, who were a global workforce and workplace mobility relocation management company headquartered in Colorado. Greybull helped Fortune 500, Global 100 and other organizations with absolutely everything when you're relocating their people. And there's a whole host of other stuff in there, but I'm going to get Jim to explain that a little bit more later on in the show. As I say always. Let's get Jim on the show. Jim, tell us about your career to date maybe and how you first get started way back when and in finance and then discover treasury and then brought yourself all the way up to vice president, corporate treasurer. So give us, take us way back to the dim distant past and we'll go from there. Over to you, sir.

Thanks for having me on your podcast. Yeah, my background is have an accounting degree from Louisiana Tech University and had the fortunate experience to interview on campus before I graduated and secured a job with kpmg Big four now public accounting firm at the time was called KPMG Pete Marwick way back when and at that time it was considered to be the big eight accounting firms but with consolidations and so forth, it's big four now. So I had a job when I graduated, went to work with KPMG on the audit side, you know, as an entry level accounting position. I mean it's kind of common to go the public accounting route to kind of start your accounting career. And I worked in the as an audit staff person, you know, doing internal control reviews, audits of trucking companies, oil and gas. This was in Louisiana, so oil and gas was pretty big. Banking, pharmaceuticals and other manufacturing, but basic accounting activities and auditing activities all the while also studying for my CPA certification. So started at kpmg, worked there a couple Years not to go into a sappy story, but dealing with, you know, I got engaged and my wife was from Chicago area so we ultimately moved to Chicago after she graduated a little bit behind me in college and so moved up to Chicago, decided not to transfer within the KPMG organization because I made a decision that, you know, I didn't think that public accounting was my long term career. And I thought well let's, let's try industry accounting. And at that time the Chicago Tribune, all the jobs were in newspaper at that point and the job section was four full pages of accounting positions. Anyway, so moved up to the Chicago area, started interviewing for accounting related jobs and ended up at Solo cup company and basic staff accountant. But it had a Canadian sales division, kind of the extent of the international presence of the company at that time. And I was the lead accountant on the Canadian sales division. So I got some introduction to a foreign currency, albeit only one, the Canadian dollar. But I had all the basic accounting activities but also had to deal with the foreign exchange impacts on the financial statements and everything else. So kind of interesting for me ultimately stayed there a couple years, moved on to a company called Hollister Incorporated. Not the clothing company, but a private healthcare manufacturer in Illinois and very global company, about 400 million in sales I believe. When I joined the company, I think there were 23, 24 worldwide locations. And this was pre euro. So we had all the currencies that rolled up into the euro in 1999, the lira, Deutsche mark, Irishpoint, et cetera, along with all the other currencies. So I was able to on an accounting basis now expand my career into the international arena with a lot more foreign currency activities. But what was telling in that job and what really got me to treasury is I was doing the accounting for the treasury activities too. So as an accountant, you know, we're always recording journal entries, doing reconciliations, recording the activities that other people have executed. Other people make decisions, execute transactions, we accountants record them. So I had visibility to what the treasury group was doing through all the interest rate hedging and more importantly all the foreign exchange hedging that they were doing. And I was doing the mark to markets on it, the FX calculations on the underlying exposures. Then I really took an interest in it and I of developed a good relationship with treasury and ultimately senior analysts in treasury had her second child decided to stay home. And the CFO asked me to join the treasury organization and I jumped at the opportunity. I thought it was great. This is way back in 1997 and essentially, I've been in treasury since. Anyway, I joined the company, did a lot of foreign exchange hedging, all the basic treasury activities in terms of cash management, banking and credit agreements. But I really was interested in the foreign currency side of things and the international side of business. And at that point I went to night school and got my MBA while I was working. Also specialized that in international business. So really like the global nature of business and certainly treasury, just to jump.

In there, we were speaking before the show about that international thing. Really, that's one of your passions. For all the diversity and the different mannerisms of different cultures, as well as, you know, just the working cultures. That's always been an interest or that started then. And that's why you thought, oh, that's it, hooked you in with treasury. Because obviously for some people, oh, yeah, like the treasury piece, but not the cash management or. But that was a real thing for you, is that right?

Yeah, it was a real driver. You know, it's funny, when I, when I joined treasury and when I got involved in the active side of hedging, so actually making decisions, executing transactions, and I could see the results, whether I anticipated them or. But based upon what we needed to do, we executed transactions, but very dynamic. I mean, everything changes. And the reason everything changes so quickly is it's just, you know, the global economies and the interrelationships between global economies and I'm not an economist, but I would like to be more of an economist. But once you're in that and you're enthralled in it, you really pay attention to everything going on global, globally, not just in your little world. So from a business perspective, very exciting. But then in. Through all that, I had opportunities to travel and in fact, my MBA program, we traveled in the international specialization aspect of that for project work in three or four different countries. So just recognizing the cultural diversity, you know, in the world and certainly how it impacts business has always been a key driver for excitement for me. It's just incredibly dynamic, changing all the time, and I love it.

And so you carry that on with your next move to Honeywell. Well, you said it's not a subsidiary uop, so maybe explain that if you would.

Yeah, so I left. I left Hollister looking for my next career level and so joined UOP as an assistant treasurer. It was a joint venture of Dow chemical and Honeywell 50 50. We operated it as an independent company while trying to meld in the policies and expectations of two large public companies, which from a Treasury perspective, in many cases were rather diverse. I know you had a podcast with Gary McGuire and he talked about the Dow Chemical side and he talked about the Dow Chemical as a. Even on the treasury side as a trading group. Right. Honeywell is completely the opposite. More of a hedging and a protection risk management mindset as opposed to a trading mindset. So we had to meld all that together in the treasury organization and at uop. For me, interestingly, it grew my treasury experience because I got involved in commercial paper. So commercial paper was the primary funding vehicle for working capital sources each and every day. So I was able to trade commercial paper, manage rating agency relationships to make sure that our rating agent, our ratings on the commercial paper were investment grade enough to spur enough demand. So anyway, that was a great opportunity for me. But after about five years, Honeywell bought Dow Chemicals interest out. So we became then a wholly owned Honeywell company which strategically the treasury group was to be absorbed in the Honeywell headquarters. So I had to unwind all the credit agreements and commercial paper program private placement debt, foreign currency hedging positions and transition that into Honeywell. Then I did a stint in accounting with Honeywell while I was trying to find my new treasury opportunity.

And so you did that role. That was 07. You then made the move to, how do you say, Fenwall.

Yes.

Yeah. So talk us through that sort of thing because, you know, similar industries or some differences but sort of crossover. Well, they look like different industries but you know, I know that we've spoken that there's been some common themes if that's the right way to do it. So I'd rather explain that, you know, get them, get my teeth in. Now you've worked with private companies, work with public, but this is more private company. So maybe explain Fenwall to us and you know, and then go through that role.

I appreciate that. Yeah. Fenwall was a great opportunity for me. I joined the company as a treasurer as the first hire of the cfo. And Fenwall was the blood collection products business within Baxter Healthcare and tpg. Texas Pacific Group private equity carved that division out to create a separate company. I was hired to build a global treasury function from scratch. I mean we didn't have one. No bank accounts, no people. There was financing sort of set because TPG had to have all that squared away to execute the carve out. But we had to build the infrastructure of the company. So a private company. I spent one of my greatest accomplishments so proud of all the work that was done there. And we built a hell of an organization. 65 bank accounts around the world. Everything basic treasury, cash management, banking, credit agreements, foreign exchange. We did some equipment leasing and yeah, it was 26 locations around the world. So very global company. So much like UOP in terms of a footprint. Very similar, a little bit different in that uop, while private independently is an independent company, but public in terms of expectations of parent companies. Whereas we were private equity at Fenwall and that's completely private. From a Treasury perspective there are some differences, public and private, but there's a lot more similarities. And even certain types of financing that are only available for public companies and have different investor audiences that are catered to the process for securing capital and things like that. There are many similarities, whether it's offering memorandums, roadshows, phone calls, marketing campaigns, whatever. A lot of that is the same. Whether it's part of it or public. Those experiences are transferable pretty readily.

So Jim, when you come in and you've got to build a Treasury from scratch, what's your checklist if you like? Again, there'll be people listening today who are in a similar situation. Private equity backed company, some PE houses are cash, cash, cash bring in. Here's our checklist with you. And you've been in this situation and what's your key checklist when you walk in the door?

Yeah, certainly in building a global treasury organization, I mean cash is king and always is king. So it really starts out with the access to capital and making sure that we protect that access to capital and maximize that, make sure we manage the relationships around that, whether with rating agencies or the lenders themselves. So that's kind of the baseline. And then from there, you know, for me it's all about a risk management mindset. So as treasurer of the company, I represent the company and I represent, I always call it kind of the guts of the company. You know, treasury is enabler for the company to do its business. And to be an enabler, I maintain a risk management mindset that I need to make sure we can continue to enable you having disruptions and there are market events like COVID 19 and things that do impact it, of course, but that's why you have to have a risk management mindset. So whether like you said, from a currency's perspective, you know, it's. For me, it's protecting the company from currency risk as best as I can. Insurance programs for corporate insurance, you know, I've done that. It's all about protecting the company. So it's having access to capital, protecting that access, deploying it in a risk management mindset kind of way and then recycling that cash to maximize the use of that liquid asset for the company where we're not straining our credit capacity unless we have these external events or whatever. But that's sort of my checklist. It's really about access to capital and then maintaining the cash cycle with a risk management mindset.

Keep it there. Then they move on to Greybull, maybe talk us through that. And then that was in 2013. Big company. Interesting. You know, with all the relocations and lots of different challenges from a Treasury perspective. Well, what did you find? Over to you.

Yeah, and just, just to go back to FINLA real quick. So, you know, built a global treasury organization. You know, we transitioned the company from sort of blood collection products business to supporting a transfusion and therapeutics type business. And ultimately a large German competitor bought the company. So ultimately that's why again, I was transitioning treasury out to another new parent company and everything and on my way find a new job. And yeah, I was lucky enough to land at Greybull here in the Denver area. It's great company, new industry for me. And in fact, interestingly enough I was in Chicago, so hired by Grable and then Grable relocated me to Denver. So it was kind of an interesting.

I was gonna say I hope they did a good job and you were able to give them a good thumbs up.

Yeah, yeah. It was the opportunity to experience what my brand new company was offering to customers. So. And it was an awesome experience. So very proud about that. Yeah. Joined the company here as a treasurer. Wasn't a new role, however, it was a new management aspect because it was one person doing tax and treasury company kind of split that out and I took the treasury aspect of it. A very global company in the relocation industry. So effectively Grebel executes the relocation programs and policies of its clients and in doing so effectively operates as a bank for our clients. Meaning that, you know, we're arranging services all over the world in about 160 countries, arranging services, paying those bills to support employees of our clients who are on either permanent projects or temporary projects or whatever all over the world and then billing the clients back, collecting that cash and recycling that. Well, the fulcrum or the balancing act in that case for me was an asset based borrowing program which was a new type of financing that I was introduced to. So another great opportunity to kind of expand my experience. So anyway, all the invoicing and the payments we made ended up being collateral against which we could borrow money. And then again, it's all about managing that cash flow cycle to be able to continually meet the demands and expectations of the clients.

And then with that, you were obviously managing and mentoring a group of treasury professionals around the world and everything else. How was that structured? How was treasury structured?

Yeah, ultimately I had about 17 people indirectly and directly reporting to me at one time. Primarily I had a Treasury manager, an equity operations manager, a credit and collections manager, and then I had. Those were direct reports. And then I had a couple of treasury supervisors sort of focused on cash and payments and a credit and collections group of fine collectors and collection representatives. And then our equity operations group, we had a few equity operation representatives which kind of focuses on the equity aspects of relocation programs. And then I did have a Treasury specialist in Ireland. You know, I was fortunate enough to be part of a core, part of a team that we established a financial shared service center in Ireland and was able to, you know, based upon the regional aspect, the time zone aspect, insert a Treasury specialist there to do kind of all of our international subsidiary treasury activities. So managing people is an interesting and ever evolving process. And for me, from a hiring perspective, let's say, and it's always hard to really judge, but, you know, I'm always looking for, and probably most people are, but, you know, somebody that you can assess that has the personal values that allows them to take ownership and accountability of their job, they work autonomously and everything else. Because if you think about treasury organizations, except maybe Dow with Gary, you know, that many people, but, you know, they're very small organizations, so none of us have the opportunity to just sit back and purely manage. I mean, I've always been a very involved working manager, so you have to rely on your team and you're only good as your team. So I think putting people in the right roles, in the right places, giving them expectations and empowerment and expecting them to follow through based upon an accountability and ownership kind of process is the most effective way of managing those teams. And if they don't fit in, you know, as we say, you don't have all the right people on the bus. Sometimes you gotta change out some of the passengers, kind of achieve that kind of a managerial relationship so that the team functions well.

When you say that again, people in similar situation, you know, how do you swap out people? How do you match them up? You know, what's the critical thinking behind that? How do you do it effectively?

Well, in terms of matching them up, it's all, you know, certainly a background thing, but it's really about giving people opportunities to show what they can do. If you have somebody in a role that's not. Doesn't seem to be performing well, then of course it's that process of, you know, sort of a collaborative interaction where don't sugarcoat things, right. We talk about this is the observation, this is what's going on, this is how we need to fix something or whatever. And then if that doesn't work, then it gets a little bit more formal and everything else. But I mean, you don't want to ever be a surprise for somebody. Obviously there needs to be feedback all the time. People need to know how they're performing, they're meeting your expectations, hopefully they're meeting their own, which helps them meet your expectations. But it is a constantly evolving process and everybody is different. So there's not a one size fits all managerial process with each individual person or as a group. It takes each individual person, I think.

And the flip side of that positive way, when you've got superstars in the team or things like that, how do you manage them and stop them from running away or, you know, have you had to deal with that in the past where you're thinking, wow, this girl or guy could get my job. You know, what's. How do you sort of mentor those guys or, you know, have you had that in the past?

Yeah, you know, it's interesting. I want people who could take my job. I mean, I want bench strength. I want people that are confident in what they're doing and I'm confident in what they're doing. Having that bench strength is awesome. I mean, getting it is. You know, when we talk about treasury groups typically being smaller, not always structured career paths or whatever, I think that's where some of the challenges become in terms of managing those people. And I think it comes down to a couple things. Number one, it comes down to trying to find opportunities outside of the core daily responsibilities to get them involved in. And then number two, and it could be cross functional. Team projects and everything are a great example. But then number two, you know, it's managing their feedback process, engaging their interest level, because as they become interested, they typically perform better. And then the third thing, if I would add on top of that, is then promoting people. I learned from a couple of good mentors that always have your team's back and always give them credit in every. Even if you're not asked to make it a point to give your team credit either individually, as a team, in whatever meeting or other, you know, frame of mind or interaction with people that you have, always promote your team because that's going to get back to them one way or another. And again, you're just being honest and having integrity to support their performance, which supports the team.

As a. Jim, you. I'm very happy to say you've been part of our Bounce Back program. Now we put together this program to help a number of treasury professionals in this weird, weird times. And Jim happens to be just going well between roles and things. It was great to have. We've got treasury analysts, we've got treasury managers, we've got global treasurers. So it's designed for all levels. And we talk about where you are today, your future with the treasury skills wheel and everything else we then do about CVs resumes. This week we're doing that. We've got LinkedIn profiles, we've done a lot of different things. And I'll get Jim knows to answer what he's enjoyed about the program. But then I also wanted to sort of explore a bit more that Jim has seen from what he sees as what CFOs are looking for, you know, and you know, he's worked for a number of different CFOs, so, you know, bring out some of those. So let's do doing the Bounce Back thing. Jim, you've been part of the program. What have you enjoyed most about it, would you say? What are the things that have been interesting to you?

And a great program, Mike, I appreciate the opportunity to participate. You know, when you're in a job search, you're sort of, you prepare your materials, Whether it's the LinkedIn or the resume, cover letters and all that, and you don't set it and forget it, but you know, we kind of repetitively use it and so forth. But I mean, this program, frankly, for me, through the probing questions and skills wheels and, you know, it actually made me sit back and think a little deeper about, you know, some of the things that I've done or some of the things that I want to highlight. And certainly the resume feedback in the session, you know, was awesome because while 90% of it, you know, may be there, I mean, just talking about it and hearing feedback from the other participants as well, you can always find a little kernel of information or a little edit that you might want to do that's just going to make it that much more relevant and that much more powerful. And the same thing for the LinkedIn profile, LinkedIn profiles, I mean, there's various versions of them, there's some similarities, but I think certainly people like on your team, Mike, that have been in the recruitment industry and everything else and have been on that side of it versus people like me who are looking for a job, you know, having that feedback, how do I use the LinkedIn profile, what do I key in on and what would that look like versus looking a different way mean in terms of punctuating the experience level? I think all that's been awesome opportunities for improving the tool set that we as job seekers have to find that next career opportunity. So I do appreciate your program.

No pleasure. And I think part of that, and that's probably the kernel of the question as well, that that piece of self reflection, that's what we wanted to give people, that they're sort of, this is where you're up to different levels, different things, but there's a lot of commonality in there. And again, sort of to use that and continue that theme just here, when you've spoken to and worked for a number of different CFOs, when they're looking to you as their treasurer, what is it that they've really looked to you for? Is that you're the FX expert or is it you're the cash or all of the above or what are the key things that you've seen from CFOs sort of knocking at your door as it were?

Well, certainly at the treasurer level, I would say it's all of the above. You know, the CFO is looking for somebody who has broad based experience in Treasury A to Z, from the financing aspect to the banking, the cash management to, you know, depending again on the company and the scope of its international operations and so forth, you know, heavier fx, you know, experience, certainly some interest rate management. And again you can get into that public where we talked about before, that public and private kind of differential in terms of treasury opportunities. You know, a company, a CFO might want somebody who's done a public bond deal or whatever. Like I said, even though you may not have done that before through other financing transactions, there are many similarities in terms of, you know, sourcing that type of financing. But all of those things are. Management experience is always very key as well. So CFO is looking for a treasurer who's got broad based experience, is very dependable, high level of accountability. And I think most of them, at least all that I've worked for, do prefer and expect a kind of a risk management mindset. You know, the funny thing is that for me in treasury and I've also had the credit and collections and the credit review aspect, meaning setting credit limits for customers as well as vendors, you know, treasury becomes sort of that balancing aspect between the sales organization and the corporate development organization and then the operations group. We have the company that we're looking out for and the other groups are rightfully so looking to expand the business and we have to always expand the business, but we need to do it in a responsible and like I say, a risk managed way. So I think that's what a CFO is looking for. Somebody that again, a CFO has a team tax, FP&A accounting, treasury maybe risk management as a chief risk officer or something. And that CFO is only as good as his team. And so you want the right people on the bus, so you want the right treasurer in the role that has the experience and is dependable and doesn't need to be managed on a daily basis.

Awesome answer there. We like that. We'll wrap that up in the show notes which I really like. Jim, as we come towards the end of today's show, as we always ask, we'll put your details in the show notes so that people can connect with you if they think it's good. And again, as I say, Jim's a great treasurer. You should be talking to him out there. What are the top three, two or three things for yourself when someone looks back and says, do you know what? I'd like a similar background to him or that really appeals to me. What are the points you would make?

What would you say in terms of a candidate sticking out from somebody else or somebody who's prepared for a Treasury career? I think number one, depending on where you're starting from, you need to have a passion for what you do and a kind of a continuous learning mindset. Treasury, as I said before, certainly a global company is very dynamic. So you may have a core set of responsibilities that have some similarities on a day to day basis but, but the majority of your day in my experience is sort of predicted and depends on kind of what happened overnight in international markets, either financial markets or your global locations or whatever. You're always having to react to things and handle issues and so forth. So I think, you know, having a passion for that integrity and honesty above all with accountability as a driver. Those are absolutely keys for me, you know, in terms of developing yourself in a Treasury role, starting at the lower treasuryanus levels and everything else. Like I said, there's not always a direct career path up to a treasurer. There typically are stepping stones, but you typically drive yourself through those based upon the experience that you gain, not always the results that you gain because we also do make errors or whatever and we learn from them. But having that passion for what you're doing, stepping outside your comfort zone, getting involved in other projects, trying to become a consultative person within the company and a business partner. And that's where I think treasury is going. It's been going from tactical to strategic all along. But I mean, if you get situations like now COVID 19 and everything, I think the profile of treasury as a department in an organization has been escalated, typically gets escalated when there are issues. Otherwise it kind of operates in the background. But I think forecasting, getting involved in forecasting, honing those skills, data manipulation and management, those are all keys to, I think, a successful career in Treasury. But again, I like that risk management mindset with accountability as your driver.

Awesome. No more words for me to say. Not going to summarise that. I think it was great and I've loved today's show and, you know, it's great talking to Jim and he's, you know, great treasurer out there, so you'd be lucky to have him. Anyone look him up. We'll put his details in the show notes to connect with him. Jim, thanks for that. You know, we've covered everything. Deep dive in some areas. We've gone about private, we've gone about public. It's good because you've got this great depth of experience and, you know, I think people can, again, you know, take tidbits as they go through and that's what I want people to gain from the show is, you know, they listen in, they get a bit from this show, a bit from that show and, you know, it's great and gives enough back to the treasure profession. So thank you very much for your time today and I look forward to. We can see you in the next Zoom Call for a Bounce Back program. But other than that, you know, hopefully you'll get you sorted out with the next role soon, sir.

Yeah, I would definitely be on your Bounce Back call. And Mike, I appreciate the opportunity for hating on the podcast and more than anything, I appreciate your promotion and support of the treasury function in the treasury industry. You do a great job and I think all of these podcasts, and I've listened to a number of them as well, there's something that everyone can take out of them, I think, and they're enjoyable, you know, if anything else. But I think you can get a value from them as well and appreciate that you're. You're doing this.

Thank you, sir. And as I've said before, I really appreciate that, you know, I've Just said to people, I, you know, I've talked to treasurers all my career and I just think, you know, you tell such great stories and about your careers and what you can give and, you know, I just want to bring them to life. That's what I've done. And I think you guys do a fabulous job every day and yeah, it's just great fun talking to you. So. Well, thank you very much, sir.

All right, Mike, thank you.

Thank you.

So I hope you enjoyed that, that sort of recollection of September 2020. Now, we're actually reconnecting with Jim today. I am saying that with my telephone cheat because Jim now is the director of corporate treasurer, reconnext. Now they are a leading aftermarket services company headquartered in Texas, but covering the world and technology, oem, cable and satellite operators. And used by those guys, they partner with different companies delivering aftermarket solutions about returned electronic devices and everything that's involved in that business. Now, I'm going to get Jim to bring us up today, so I'll shut up and Jim, take us back to then and then let's, you know, catch up over what is now approaching two years later. So back to you. Saw your story. Over to you.

Yeah, Mike, Thanks. Yeah, back September 2020 in the midst of COVID And when we had our session here was a different situation where I was in between jobs looking for a job in the COVID market, which was difficult, very difficult, very competitive, but very uncertain in terms of jobs. But luckily did land my next opportunity. I started at Reconnect in March of 2021. Yeah, as you said, Reconnects is a, we're a reverse supply chain company in the electronics industry. So many of the big electronics companies that you would know of, we buy products from them, sell products to them, but we take products and we refurbish, recycle. Maybe it's cosmetic, maybe it's the electronic components. Maybe it's a little bit of wiping of hard drives and resetting back to, you know, the kind of the standard and setup. But yeah, we're recycling electronic components to give, you know, them further lives, sometimes in different markets, sometimes back to the same people we buy them from. So kind of an interesting business.

And you're working remotely. You and I were just spoken speaking before we reconnected, if you like. And what's it been like for you? You got that role, but it's actually a remote role now. Again, the market has shifted. It's open to that now, but it's worked very well for yourself. And you Know you're mobile with your role and everything else. Talk it through. Bring us up to date on that as well.

It's a good thing for me right now. And it was an interesting opportunity. Yeah, I mean, at that time, most roles, well, all the interviewing was virtual, of course, and everything. And most of the roles that were available were remote because offices were closed or whatever. And I was, you know, lucky enough to land this remote role. In fact, most of the people in, if they're not in one of our service centers or production facilities, most of the management team and so forth, and certainly executive leadership team, they're all remote. You know, we don't, we're headquartered in Texas, but we go to Texas when we need to or we travel other way, other places that we need to. In fact, it's funny, I, I didn't meet anyone in my company face to face until at least six months after I joined the company and then didn't meet my boss till about a year after joining the company. So. Been interesting in that regard. And today, you know, remote work is, is not as common, but I'm, I'm fortunate to be able to continue to do that. And it's also helped me on a personal basis where we've kind of sold a home in Colorado and actually kind of traveling the country in a travel trailer, working each day and then enjoying, you know, the sites and everything on weekends and stuff. But having a remote role obviously gives me that opportunity, which makes it a little bit more interesting and makes it harder to turn things off. That's always an issue when you're working remote. But I'm doing the best I can to try to enjoy some of the areas that we, we visit.

And any tips on that? Well, even when you're based at one location, you know, throughout lockdown and then coming out of it, one of the things that someone actually said to me recently that they have been enjoying going back to the office. And I said, oh, right, no, because I'm switching off. So what, you're going back to the office to switch off? And they went, no, no, there's a partitioning again of their day. You know, on their. They've started to go back in two to three days a week and they go in Tuesday to Thursday. And what they're finding is particularly on the Thursday, they sort of down tools at about five o' clock. They've probably still got stuff to do, but they said, look, I'll get to that tomorrow. I'm gonna go, you know, sometimes out socially or I'm going and I'm getting the train and I'm doing this and then I go. And they've got back some of their routine which I think has been better for their mental health. But again, you've got that sort of balance. You've got to keep that balance. But how's that been sort of thing? And as you say, you're obviously having to work on it. If you're otherwise, you could just work 24 7.

I'm assuming jobs in the past, you know, I would do as you mentioned, you know, okay, well, I got to go home. I shut things down but oftentimes I'm signing back on and doing more work at home. But I do have a break in between for dinner or whatever but, and didn't do it every day. But now, yeah, it's even more difficult because every day, you know, I'm sitting here working, you know, and it, it is a very conscious effort to say, look, you know, yeah, I could continue working but I need to save that for tomorrow and, and go out and have a walk or do whatever, wherever I'm at. And it's a conscious decision. It's very, it's much easier to keep working because you're in that mode and it's much more difficult to turn it off and it's, it takes some effort.

You have to work on your, your partitioning of your work.

Right.

As well. So and so reflecting on that time and bringing us up today, I know again we were talking way back when you talk about the job search and everything else but you know, the future of you and the future treasure. What are your reflections or thoughts now as you look back over that time? We're not quite the tips that we're going to give people as well. But you know, you look back over that time and treasury and everything else, what are your thoughts?

Covid kind of changed things a little bit and I think a couple of things, I think it brought, I think it brought some focus and notoriety, if you will, or appreciation for Treasury. Think, you know, I'm biased. I've been in treasury since 1997 and I love it, man, but I do so because it's dynamic and because it's essentially the life blood of any company. You have to have cash, you have to have financing, you have to have bank accounts and moving cash here and there, both with customers and vendors. And you know, every day, you know, in a normal environment that I guess you would say gets taken for granted. As long as there's no issue, nobody really knows or thinks about treasury, but when you get in an environment like Covid, not that it caused a financial crash or anything like that, like back in 2008, but it did certainly bring to mind, you know, the, the idea of I got to have the financial resources to operate the company. There is a, an economic impact. Sometimes customers are shut down based upon Covid outbreaks or whatever, and it can have an impact. And I think, though, the treasury gets a little bit more representation and notoriety in situations like that. So. And in this case, I see it going forward, Covid is not going to go away. It's not going to be a big piece like it has been, of course, but who knows what's going be next? So I appreciate that that treasury gets noticed good way is kind of contributing to the company's success. And the other thing is, is, you know, again, I think the work environment's different now. I don't think remote 100% is going to be the way that, you know, the future will be, but I do think it's going to be a hybrid model. I'm hearing and seeing more and more about that where, like you suggested, people are in the office two or three days a week and then they're at home. Otherwise, I think it's a good balance for the employees. Provide some opportunity to do some more personal things and essentially you can be multitasking with personal stuff and working at the same time. But also reconnecting, I think is important. I've always enjoyed working with my team, whether my direct team or the broader finance group. Sort of miss that. I guess I would know how to do it again, but it probably take me a little bit of time to acclimate back in that environment. So I think hybrid work model probably is a good balance on the, on the way forward in the working world.

Again, if someone's listened to your journey up to then and then we've now caught up with you with this new role and everything else. Fantastic. We'll put your LinkedIn details in the show notes. What closing words from this next chapter, if you like, would you give to people when they're listening today and thinking, oh, wow, that sounds, you know, they look at your career profile on LinkedIn and say, oh, yeah, I want to do something light. Jim, what, what sort of final words would you give to those guys today.

From a career perspective and that, like I said, I love Treasury. Stay the course in Treasury. If you're not in treasury, think about a, you know, a Treasury career and at least getting immersed in it to see what it's all about the dynamics of it. You know, the reactionary aspect of the environment that you're in, whether it's Covid or another issue, and how that you, you can support the company. Stay the course. It's not always easy. The dynamics of it sometimes are stressful and frustrating. But I think, you know, you have to stay the course and do your job. Then the other thing that I would be second would be, you know, take, take some risk. It's interesting. During this time period I had some staffing issues and actually brought a staff member back on board after some period of time in that process, learned, I guess, a little bit more, and this is a development opportunity, but learned a little bit more about what that person really wanted to do. And that person really wanted to be more involved in certain areas, like our cash flow forecasting, which is really big for us in Treasury. Wanted to be more involved in that, not just in doing it, but more in terms of reviewing and delivering the results of that to the financial leadership team. That kind of was my role, but we've now transitioned now that that person kind of takes the lead in that and that person seems to be happier than, than they ever were before they left the company in the first place. They didn't leave the company because they were unhappy with that. They thought that they wanted to do something other than Treasury. And so this goes back to my first point. That person determined that whatever they went to which was more of an accounting based role, just wasn't as exciting as treasury and really wanted an opportunity to come back. And I had that opportunity because filling a role even at the back end here of COVID has been a very difficult process and was able to bring that person back and the situation can be better. I mean, it's working out great.

Amazing. Well, we know that you and I both know that once you, once you, you're in the world of Treasury. I've done it 25 years recruiting amazing treasures like yourself. That's it. It's in your blood. You can't get away from it. So why would you. So, no. Amazing.

Yeah.

Jim, amazing to chat, sir. Thank you for your time today and as we said, look forward to catching up soon.

All right, Mike, thanks for the opportunity and thanks for doing this and supporting the treasury management kind of career mode. It's awesome.

Delicious. Thank you.

Hello, it's Mike here again. I hope you enjoyed this week's show. If you did, then maybe you want to follow the show or subscribe depending on where you listen, whether that's itunes, Spotify or another great place to listen to the show from. It's totally free and means that you'll be the first to see each and every week when we release a new show. And maybe whilst you're there, you could even leave a quick review. Reviews and ratings are among the most important metrics for a podcast to effectively rank. And as you can probably appreciate, the podcast is a lot of hard work to produce. Every week it'd be amazing. Just take, say, 20 seconds. Leave a quick review of my amazing guests and their great career stories. We'd really appreciate it. Thanks very much and I can't wait to see you soon.