Building Global Treasury Impact Through Data and Analytics

In this week's podcast, I feature Takachida Kahudzai, the head of treasury at Avon. Known Takachida for many years, placed him originally at Kimberly-Clark way back a number of years ago. Great guy. Tell you what, have a quick listen, get some great inspiration.

First of all, one day I got invited to a meeting with the international CFO. She was trying to find ways in which there can be one way of looking at working capital globally. And then I told her about the analytics platform I'd built for the EMEA region. She got fascinated. We arranged a meeting. I showed her what I'd done and she said, okay, give me a job, do this globally. So my task was to build a global analytics platform for working capital. So got the team together, team of 10 with the support of my bosses, and we put together a roadmap, a project plan. To over a period of a year to build those global analytics. What I didn't realize was we were creating a one source of the truth for the whole company. And all of a sudden, that platform was now used to track performance around working capital. So people's bonuses were now tied to that, to those results we were using in that platform. So this became a critical platform in which the company used to track free cash flow. Which was an amazing outcome. So one of the biggest headaches was Nigeria because there were severe currency shortages and we were investing a lot of money into the country and trying to move money out of Nigeria, not easy because there's, there was a currency shortage and also there are lots of restrictions. And so for me, it was working with the local business to manage the volatility of the business. And ensure that we got that factory built. We got them— we got the funding we needed in terms of FX to make sure that we had all the materials to build the factory on time. I think I had lots of sleepless nights on Nigeria, but we— but we got the factory up and running on time. But it worked because we worked as one team. The global treasury, the local business procurement, all working together to find solutions. Sometimes you had to look for— it taught me how to think outside the box.

Welcome to this week's Treasury Career Corner podcast, where I interview treasury professionals about their treasury careers. Each and every week I talk to treasurers about how they've built their careers, where they are now, where they see both themselves and the treasury profession going to next. Let's get on with the show. This week's show, delighted to be joined by my good friend Takachida Kuhutsai, the head of treasury at Avon. Avon is a multinational company selling cosmetics, skincare, perfume, and personal care products. More than just a beauty company, they're a global movement for women embracing their power and have been doing beauty differently for 140 years. As a company, they connect people through beauty, shared passion, innovation, and expertise affordably. Now, Takachida and I have been friends for many years. I actually placed him on one of his original roles many years ago. But we'll come back to that later on in the show. Tekachida, if you would, but take us back to the beginning and then we'll catch up on our stories and stuff. We go all the way back to dealing in a bank. So over to you, sir.

So thank you, Mike, for having me on this show. I've been looking forward to being on this show. So yeah, all those years I started off in banking in 2023, sorry, 2003. You can tell about how, yeah. So I I worked for— I joined a startup bank called First Banking Corporation at the time in Zimbabwe, Saharare. But I think if I start off how I ended up into banking, so my first job out of uni was working for a market research company called Research International. So I was the executive assistant to the CEO, and part of my role was to manage portfolio projects for the CEO and we were doing a project for a large international bank. They wanted the research strategy for Africa, and we're helping them craft that research strategy for Africa. And one of the senior executives from the bank had come down to explain what they wanted with the research strategy. And the way he talked about banking, my heart just lighted up, and I felt drawn to banking. And so after that, I went around applying for different banking jobs, and I got into a graduate training program that First Banking Corporation ran. It was a 2-year graduate training program. So you go through all the areas of banking— retail banking, corporate banking, investment banking, treasury. So I started off in corporate banking, 6 months, retail banking, 6 months, and then last 6 months— well, the next step was a retail bank, so treasury. And at the end of the 6 months, when I was due to move to investment banking, which was where I wanted to go. I wanted to be an investment banker. The head of the FX desk asked me to stay on for a little, for one more month, because they wanted a cover for some, some of the traders who were going on leave. And there I was as a young graduate trainee learning to manage an FX desk with just the head of the FX desk there. He was quite interested in how I performed in that whole month. And asked me to stay on. So I never got to finish the graduate training program. So I missed out on going to investment banking.

So, yeah, but then Treasury, that was your— that was their loss and Treasury's gain. So you were— yes, that was it. You said, right, I'm in, you know, Treasury. And then you were learning a lot. And I remember you, you know, I've talked about this in the past. I know you've talked to other people, but big learning curve for you then. What was Treasury like back then, sort of thing?

Quite fast-paced. The markets move quite quickly. So I was on the FX trade, on the FS desk, doing— so it's a dual role, doing FX sales and doing the FX trading. And the markets moved very quickly, and so you had to be alert on what was happening in the world, what was happening in the country, or managing all the geopolitical risks, and being available to clients because clients would phone in and want to know what's happening in the economy. So you had to have your A-game. On all the time because clients were looking to us as their bankers to give them the best advice and to give them the best, the best service. And so that was quite a steep learning curve, learning how to deal with clients, learning how to sell to clients and how to look after them. And those are essential skills that have really helped me later on in my career. Yeah. And yeah, I did that for about up to from 2004 to 2007. And then I had an opportunity to get a work permit to come to the UK. And my boss at the time was the head of the FSD, said, no, these don't come often. You've got my blessing to go over to the UK and try your luck in London. So I did. So I came to end of 2007, 2008, but that was at the start of the financial crisis. And a friend of mine who worked in one of the large investment banks in London then said, if I were you, I'd hide in corporate for a while because banking right now is not the right place to be. Hide for a couple of years, then when this all blows over, you can come back into banking. And so that's when I reached out to you and you placed me at Kimberly-Clark. I did.

So who were Kimberly-Clark at the time? Because I know they went through a transformation as well and they changed their business. But I placed you, as you say, back at Kimberly-Clark. Global multinational, but as an analyst, sort of talk us through that, if you like, in your words, rather than mine.

So Kimberley Clark is one of the world's largest health and hygiene companies. It's got a broad range of portfolios. Some of the famous brands are Andrex toilet paper, Huggies diapers, Scott paper. So well-known brands, Kleenex. So Kleenex is actually a verb in the world.

So if—

yeah, so it's amazing portfolio. Of brands. And they were expanding, though primarily Europe and North America and LATAM, very little presence in Africa. They're expanding into a lot of the emerging markets. So it's a great time to join. They had an in-house bank in Brighton. So I joined the in-house bank in Brighton, which was a couple of years old. So one of the early employees of that in-house bank, and they're still building out. So it's part of the team that helped build up the services. And amazing learning experience, learning It's different from banking treasury because it's a slower pace, but it's more understanding the business, manufacturing, how to run a business. So you had to learn how the business works, understand how all the elements impact how you do cash management, how you, you do FX hedging, how you manage the company loans. It is all aspects of treasury. So it was great to come in and learn how the other side of Treasury works.

And it was quite an unusual structure. I remember I did a study actually for one of my clients and we looked at lots of companies in the sector and, you know, we were talking about the way that they were structured and they usually had a typical, very, you know, triangle structure. So your Treasurer up the top and Regional Treasurer maybe, and, you know, further down there were some dealers, whereas you guys had a lot of analysts and dealers doing different countries and things like that over time. And then you split it out that way, you know, or talk us through that evolution, if you would, because it was quite different over the time, wasn't it? Sort of. I know that the, that changed quite a lot.

It was a flat structure. So you had the, in the, in the in-house bank, you had the head of the in-house bank and then the treasury analysts. We were given a lot of responsibility. So even though we're treasury analysts, we were basically doing roles that a typical senior manager would do. Uh, you had lots of responsibility. So I looked after certain regions in terms of FX hedging programs. So my responsibility was to work with the business. To manage those exposures. You had exposure, right, all to senior leaders. So every quarter we had what we call an FX Currencies Committee where you could present what you're proposing to do with those, with those exposures, how you propose to manage them. And this was an analyst level. Typically Treasury Manager 11 and above typically have those responsibilities. But yeah, but you have the analysts.

But how many analysts were there?

Because it was It was about 6 of us. Yeah, 6 of us.

Yeah, it was, as you say, very flat. Normally you get 2 guys just being given very little responsibilities and, you know, and whereas you guys were like, when I used to talk to you, it was like, right, I'm doing this, I'm doing this, I'm doing this.

I'm like, really?

I was like, wow. It was just like, it was, it's crazy times. I loved it. And I recruited other people there for Kimberly-Clark. It was, you know, people saying, oh, go in there as an analyst. I went, yeah, but you won't be just doing analyst stuff. And they were like, oh, okay. It was because it made a fascinating job, I think. I mean, what were your highlights, if you like, of that time, if you like? And then we'll go as you, because you grew there, you were, you were hiding from banks for what, 17 years at Kimberly-Clark. So talk us through that.

So, yeah, so you got a lot of projects. So in the morning you do your normal daily treasury activities. So come up with your position, invest. Surplus cash, close out any FX positions, and, and make sure that all the operational activities were closed off by lunchtime. In the afternoon, it was time to do projects. So you knew that the afternoon, there were always various initiatives going on in the company, whether it was spinning off a subsidiary, onboarding in a new sub— a new business that had been bought. So doing the integration. If there was a company restructuring, you always got involved in all those different activities. So you got exposed to a lot of different stakeholders. And you began to be exposed to ways in which you had to sell ideas, which was fascinating because part of the job became influencing stakeholders to improve how treasury could, could add value to those departments. So you end up being like an advisory role as well at the same time. So I did that for about 6 years. I've lost track of the number of projects we did. They were just phenomenal.

You were doing lots of, and then a theme for you is about working capital. And improvement programs and things. But you carried on and you got more senior as well. Then you were leading a global team. Talk us through how you progressed in that time. If someone's listening today and they're thinking, oh, this sounds great, but how would I progress in a role like that? How did you do it?

So an opportunity arose to become what they called a working capital consultant. Working capital was becoming a key theme in the company, and the company's philosophy was, yeah, we're an A-rated company with lots of cash. But we could do a lot better at managing our balance sheet. And so roles were created to try and provide insights analytics around working capital. So I left Treasury, joined the team that worked directly with the business. So my— so part of my job was to provide insights to the CFO of the EMEA region. So my task was to build a set of analytics that will help them drive decisions around how they managed working capital. So that's when I introduced to coding. So I had to learn how to code to build analytics, which I had no background in, in IT. So I had to learn on the job how to code and how to build these analytics. And it started unlocking insights that started saving the company lots of cash and generating cash from the balance sheet. And one day I got invited to a meeting with the international CFO. She was trying to find ways in which there can be one way of looking at working capital globally. And then I told her about the analytics platform I built for the EMEA region. She got fascinated. We arranged a meeting. I showed her what I'd done and she said, okay, give me a job, do this globally. So my task was to build a global analytics platform for working capital. So got the team together, team of 10 with the support of my bosses, and we put together a roadmap, a project plan to over a period of a year to build those global analytics. What I didn't realize was we were creating a one source of the truth for the whole company. And all of a sudden, that platform was now used to track performance around working capital. So people's bonuses were now tied to that, to those results we were using in that platform. So this became a critical platform in which the company used to track free cash flow, which was an amazing outcome.

Yeah, yeah.

And started getting— as we were developing this platform, we realized that we needed additional ways in which we could make this platform efficient. So I got exposed to things like machine learning way before they became trendy. Yeah, which was an amazing experience, understanding how to leverage machine learning to drive analytics. And this platform became key in unlocking millions and millions of free cash flow from the balance sheet for the company.

And it, you know, I was gonna, I was gonna actually explore this about saying how did you get buy-in from stakeholders, but from what you're saying is you were just giving clarity and you gave clarity and then everyone was buying in. Was it that easy or what was, and how was it?

So after we got, I, I got this commission from the International CFO, naturally you have to create stakeholder meetings. So you go around the world. So there was a a committee set up which my boss at the time took part to help smooth the passage, so to speak, to get buy-in from different stakeholders. Because this was not just a platform for EMEA, so LATAM, Asia Pacific, the US, the whole globe had to buy into this. So there was a lot of stakeholder meetings to show them the benefits of this platform. So once we did a prototype and people could see the benefits, over time it was easy to get the buy-in because people could see the benefits of this platform. Yeah, I remember word got around of this, how we'd build this platform. So we had a team that managed space. So, so there was, they had a store for space for the different factories around the world. And they tracked, you know, usage of space. And they had always had trouble understanding where the space were, how much space we had. And they heard about this platform. And I didn't know that I'd actually built data that they could live with. They felt like they'd gone into a candy store with all the data I had. And for them, this became the key platform. So it wasn't just serving the business, but it was also serving other areas we would not have thought of. So all of a sudden this platform was being used by different teams around the company.

And when they were using it, what, in what way were they using it? Sort of thing, just to adjust in time delivery or, you know, for, or what were they using it for?

They were using it to not only that, but to then work out plans how they manage the inventory of space, for example. Right. So they knew how much space they had so they could then work out around different parts of the world. So if, for example, a factory in Brazil needed a spare, they could see that there was a spare in the US, they could easily say, okay, this space doesn't look like it's going to be used in the next 6 months, let's move that spare immediately to Brazil. So you've got that just in time, and then the US can then backfill that spare at the appropriate time.

So, and this is— and what goes into that space? Is it like sort of, you know, different products, different Andrex loo rolls, or what is it? What is it?

So these were spares for the machines that manufactured the products.

Okay.

Yeah. Yeah. But you also had visibility of all the products. So in terms of how much inventory you had of the Luerolls or how much inventory you had of the different SKUs that we had of the different products. So it was an encompassing platform. Yeah.

And you'd gone from, in this time as well, you'd moved from consultant role to then regional treasurer. You know, you've got that as well. Do you, you know, maybe it was easier then to influence decisions and things. How did you yourself build your own confidence to make decisions? Was it a case of you were growing into it because you're saying, well, hang on, these guys are using it in Brazil to, you know, space plan and do this and do this. Was it a natural thing or, you know, did you have to work on it? Would you say?

I would say I had to work on it. I think the working capital role really helped me develop those selling skills because As you were building the platform and as you were building the service that the company was using, you had to collaborate with different teams. So if I had a problem on that I needed to solve, I had to look for people. So I had to learn to build a network and that network ended up proving valuable because you develop relationships to say, this is what I'm trying to achieve. This is how it'll benefit you by using this service. And as you build those relationships, spending time with people, it became easier to then say, let's do ABCDE. And because they know that you're providing something that will benefit them, becomes easier to sell.

Yeah.

And so that period really taught me a lot about how to manage stakeholders, how to build stakeholders with, with people you've never met before, to build those relationships. And so that proved, well, That proved valuable for me when I became the regional treasurer for the EMEA region because that network I'd built, I had access to information. So that means I knew what was happening in different parts of the business. It was very easy for me to get insights and then be able to come up with strategies to solve whatever issues would occur. Challenges, yeah, yeah.

And then you were— I know that you were rolling out FX hedging programs that were great for It reduced the volatility of, you know, some of the challenges you face. Great on paper. What are the challenges behind making that happen? Surely, you know, given your background, everyone was like, yeah, that's great. He just says do it, we do it. You know, it's an easy— this is it. What would, you know, when someone else is facing a similar thing, what would you say that they need to think about?

So you need to think of the business as a whole. So understand the business model. So it's not a one size fits-all solution. Yeah, each market has got different nuances, especially emerging markets. So I'll give an example of South Africa, which has got exchange, you know, strict exchange controls. Yeah, so traditionally in most markets, so if you want to hedge for 3 years, you can easily hedge for 3 years in, let's say, Europe or North America. There are no restrictions, even up to 5 years you can hedge. But in South Africa, they've got exchange control regulations that say your hedge cannot last more than 12 months. And so you've got a policy that says hedge 3 years, but some markets are saying hedge 1 year. And so you then say, okay, how do I adjust that to the reality on the ground? So you're then working with the business to say, how do we reduce volatility in your market? I've got these limitations against your local regulations, but I still want to reduce volatility in your market. And so you work with the business together They tell you, you understand what the constraints are, you understand what the regulations are saying, and you then work with the senior stakeholders to then come up with a win-win solution that works for that market. So it's still adhering to policy, it's still adhering to the local regulations, but you're tailoring the hedging program to suit the conditions on the ground.

And what would you say maybe stands out to you, not as the biggest win, but maybe the toughest challenge or environment situation that you've had to navigate in that situation? Were there any particularly you think, wow, that was a headache and we got through it?

So one of the biggest headaches was Nigeria because there were severe currency shortages and we were investing a lot of money into the country and trying to move money out of Nigeria, not easy because there's, there was a currency shortage and also there are lots of restrictions. And so for me, it was working with the local business to manage the volatility of the business and ensure that we got that factory built. We got them, we got the funding we needed in terms of FX to make sure that we had all the materials to build the factory on time. I think I had lots of sleepless nights on Nigeria, but we, but we got the factory up and running on time. But it worked because we worked as one team. The global treasury, the local business procurement, all working together to find solutions. Sometimes you had to look for, it taught me how to think outside the box.

Yeah, creative ideas.

Creative ideas. And you had to come up with innovative instruments with banks. To try and get access to currency, to start looking at, you know, leveraging instruments such as standby letter of credits to try and manage access to FX, which was quite fascinating. But I'd say I'm really proud of what the team and I did in trying to manage Nigeria.

And so after 17 years, it was time for a change, bring us up to date sort of thing. What's— recently stepped into this role with Avon, you know, what have been your Talk us through, I gave a bit of a headline what Avon, I think most people know it, but what is Avon now? And you know, what have been your biggest challenges as you joined the group and stuff? And, you know, a year or so ago.

When I joined, the company was still under public ownership and it was owned by the Natura Group. So I joined with the plan for me to help prepare the company for sale. So I was with the senior team and the challenge was to make sure that we had the right treasury infrastructure to support that. So supporting the treasury team. Having the right bank accounts, having the right infrastructure for the sale. There's a lot of uncertainty, and— but I think the key was working with banks to ensure that it was a seamless transition to private ownership. And that was the biggest challenge for me in those first 6 months. So thankful for my banking partners I worked with. We worked quite well to make sure that we had that smooth transition from public to private equity ownership. So one of the challenges when you're moving from private ownership to private equity is, from a banking perspective, the banks are usually nervous around who the new owner is. And so you need a lot of stakeholder management around that. So I leveraged those relationships that I'd built over time to ensure that we put those banks at ease in terms of the transition. And the transition went well, smoothly. And it's, it's been an amazing journey. Private equity is more fast-paced, Things move quickly and I love complexity. I love things that move fast. So it's keeping me on my toes, but I love it because I'm learning a lot at the same time.

And you, I know you went in there, you've sort of redesigned global liquidity. You've been doing, as you say, that complexity leans into that. You know, what have been the biggest challenges so far? Biggest hurdles that you've got over? And, you know, again, working with, is it working with the stakeholders or it sounds like that's one of the challenges or how have you smoothed that path? So if someone is in a similar situation, they're going, oh, this is great advice. What sort of stuff?

So the key is to build— I think the biggest challenge, especially when you're coming from outside, is no one knows you. So you're trying to build those relationships and you're bringing in new ideas. So a lot of my time has been spending time with people to try and explain those ideas, especially how we want to set up the in-house bank, the cash pooling, the journey we're on, on trying to leverage AI. So it's a lot of stakeholder management. That's a key part, especially when you're coming in from outside. Because if they begin to understand your message, they begin to see your benefits. And that's how you start getting things done.

You got the buy-in and things. And then I know that the— you've gone through this period of change and you've also come into a new role, if you like, new systems, new things like that. And, you know, I know we talked, we were just talking before the show about technology. But as you've come in, what have you— what's been your checklist? And we often talk about that on the show. What have you been looking at?

So I always operated in, in it, in what I can call a 3 framework, so to speak. So the first framework is look at the operational, you know, whether I've got a 5-stage process that I look at in that operational pillar.

Talking through the 5 stages, love it. Maybe even put it in the show notes, who knows. But yeah, so talk us through it.

So it's basic, but I try to make it as simple as possible. So stage 1, you know, what is my FX and cash position? And once I know my FX and cash position, you know, how do I optimize that cash? So, and how do I mobilize it? So if I've got pockets of cash elsewhere, how do I bring it to the center? And what's in the center? How do I invest it? And then the third way, third stage is, you know, how do I, what are my FX exposures? How do I manage that risk? Yeah. And how am I going to hedge? And then stage 4, execute those strategies. And so that will generate payments, and then you settle them. Then the stage 5 is you reconcile, you report, and you make sure that it complies with policy. So that's my 5-stage framework.

And then back to the top for the next region, or, you know, how does it— what does it— what comes next?

So then the next stage is basically strategic. You want to say, okay, what value am I going to add to, to the business? So it's essentially build those partnerships with the business. And then as you build those partnerships, understand the business model, then look at opportunities to optimize processes, uh, so working capital. And then from that, build predictive risk and scenario architecture. And then stage 4 is strategic capital allocation and funding. And stage 5 is performance insights that drive action, growth, and profitability.

People are scribbling down like crazy. Don't worry, we'll put this in the show notes for anyone listening now as well. So don't worry. This is great. Now, you and I, we see each other lots of the time at the conferences, you know, because they often ask you, you're a great speaker, you know, we got this now. But why do you lend into that side of things? Is it just you like talking to people or how come you enjoy the speaking circuit so much? Or, you know, you're great at it, I know, but why is that something for you? For me, You know, people say, oh, you love speaking. I don't really love speaking, but I love being in a room with treasurers. You know, we've just done it. You know, that's my place where I can meet lots of my clients. Why do you like it so much? Or what, why does it light you up?

So it's coming from my family background. My parents are teachers. And so that teaching aspect, creating value, so sharing insights with the community so that they also learn, but I also get to learn as I speak. And so For me, adding value to the community, especially the treasury community. And it's also a platform for me to meet others, other stakeholders in the treasury space, because I also get to learn from them. So usually after I speak, someone will come and ask me questions, so I'm learning from those people. And growing up, also had a love for drama, so drama teaches you how to speak. I just love drama, so it just comes out that when I'm on stage, I just love speaking.

And you and I have just talked there and you're very confident in things like that. And it's all been plain sailing. You know, there's been no hiccups along the way. Just anyone listening today say, oh, look at this man. Are there times when things haven't gone to plan? And what did you learn from it? Or what were the— if you just reflect back and you're sitting back, you know, with a cup of coffee or something like that thinking, wow, that was a tough one, but we got through it. What sort of stuff, you know, would come to mind?

Lots of things have gone wrong. I would not be honest if I say nothing has gone wrong. Lots of things have gone wrong. So I can go back to my previous role at Kimberly-Clark when I was building the working capital analytics platform. The first version that we built after I got the commission from the International CFO, she did not like it. Oh, wow. She did not like it at all. And at that time, I remember my boss and I saying it felt like the world, it came down on us because we'd spent a lot of time building that first draft. But it was a lesson to understand when you're building things, have the customer in mind. And every time I do things, I now have that customer-centric hat on. What, how does this benefit the customer? And so I have everything I design has to be customer-centric. So when we went back and designed the second draft of that, I'm listening platform, it got better traction.

All about the customer in mind sort of thing. And yeah, but that's perhaps not something that all treasury professionals do. They're like so focused on the task at hand.

You've got to think of the end user, so I think, yeah, you always have to. So even in the treasury space, so, uh, designing a hedging program, for example, ultimately who's the customer? It's the business, because you're trying to provide reduced earnings volatility for the business. But the only way you can do that is understand what the business does, what are the different dynamics. So once you know the working capital cycle of the business, how the business makes decisions, what are the key business drivers, then you can use that information to build an appropriate hedging program. Without that, you can have an ineffective hedging program.

Yeah, not gonna work. And you mentioned earlier on that you were an early student, if you like, of digital and digital acceleration, and it's a big thing for yourself, but you were before the curve, if you like. Now everyone's catching up with you, you know, sort of with AI and the March of All the Things, ChatGPT, the lot. You were doing that before. What are you seeing that as the biggest opportunity for treasury going forward? Is that one of the things, or is that the major one that you see coming along?

So I take a, an even, I'll take a different view. So it's important now, but I think as treasurers, so we've had different technologies come up. So we've had blockchain, we've had, now it's AI, we've got stablecoins. So all these things coming. Yeah, I'm not focusing on the now in my mind. I mean, we can leverage AI, but my biggest question is how is Treasury going to position itself when all these technologies intersect? Because they're gonna intersect at some point. So how do we prepare ourselves for that intersection? Because that's gonna dramatically shift how we run Treasury. Cool.

Love it. Now we're not at the end of the show, you know, but I wanted to sort of say, Eddie, you know, someone listening, we have a range of listeners. To the show, we have treasury analysts who are studying their early exams, things. Someone actually was talking to me the other day because we are— shout out to our guys in Dublin University now that we are required listening, you know, the recommended listening rather than people listening to it. So what if someone's earlier on in their treasury career, you know, reflecting back, if you like, and across your career, what do you think they should focus on mastering first? What do you think they should try and get hold of?

So I would say early on, apart from mastering the basics, yeah, build relationships, not just within treasury but outside, because you'll do your job well if you've got access to information. And so how do you get access to information? By building relationships with different people in accounts payable, people in accounts receivables, people in procurement. They know what's happening in the business, people in supply chain. Once you build those relationships, you begin to build a pipeline of information. So when you are looking at your cash position has changed 30%, you know who to call to understand why has cash in this market gone down. And you know, once you know the drivers, then you know how it feeds into your forecasts and how you can prepare for that in the future, and you manage your risks in a much better way. So I'd say early on, build those relationships with different stakeholders, right? It doesn't have to be, it doesn't have to be senior stakeholders. It can be lateral people, in different departments. They have a lot of information and that will be critical for your success.

You're a very good networker. You see that person's really good and that person, wow, they're amazing. What is it, you know, relationships may be one part of it. Are there anything else that separates those guys as they move, you know, and you see them as more senior treasury leaders? Is there anything in particular you've noticed?

The first thing I've noticed is a unique perspective they have. So the unique perspective allows you to see the world in a different way, and that gives room to innovative ideas that can benefit other treasurers. Yeah. And so I've benefited from treasurers who, if I'm facing a problem, they've solved it in a unique way, and that unique way, that's what gives them value.

Great wrap-up answer. And other challenges for treasurers as well, you know, we, you touched, we touched on technology there and everything else, and as you say, but actually it's more about the relationships. Anything else that you think that is making you— you're keeping an eye on, or as well as a treasurer yourself?

So obviously geopolitical risk. I think we're in an environment where the world is getting more and more volatile. Usually used to have volatile events, yeah, once in a while, but they're becoming every— almost a daily occurrence. So I think having that mindset that volatility is here to stay. So the question is, how do you navigate as a treasury, as a treasurer, those risks when volatility is a constant feature. And so having a playbook that can navigate, that can help the business navigate that volatility is essential.

Fabulous.

Cool.

Well, we're going to put your LinkedIn details in the show notes. I know that it's going to light up and there'll be lots of people wanting to connect, which is good. But with yourself, what sort of advice, your takeaways from today? You've heard the podcast before. You said you were listening to some of the others, which is great. And, you know, we do the takeaways each show. What do you think, whether it's more junior style, you know, you've given some great stuff about having the playbook, relationships, anything else or any other wrap-up words or something?

I think it's critical to have an open mind. An open mind opens up possibilities. So when people bring ideas, and usually it's the initial, the typical inclination typically is to say, I don't like that idea, but have an open mind, listen. In listening, that's how you solve problems. That'd be my takeaway.

Love it. I'm just going to leave it there because great final words. Tukhacheeda, amazing to catch up with you. Thank you very much, sir. And I know that your LinkedIn inbox will light up after this.

Thank you very much. Thank you very much, Mike Richards. It's been fabulous to be here.

And you, sir.

Thank you.

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