Building Relationships & Driving Success in Treasury with Dave Cable

Foreign.

To this week's Treasury Career Corner podcast where I interview treasury professionals about their treasury careers. Each and every week I talk to treasurers about how they build their careers, where they are now, where they see both themselves and the treasury profession going to next. And a special thanks to Flywire, our fantastic sponsors. If you've ever wondered whether there was a way to ease your international transaction hassles, they're the guys to talk to. If you follow the link in our show notes, you can see me talking to my mate Greg Levin, their Senior VP of Sales. I get to ask Greg about who are Flywire and how they can help you and your treasury team with your cross border payment headaches. Just follow the link to the interview in today's show notes. And now let's get on with the show. In this week's show, delighted to be joined by Dave Cable, the Vice President Treasurer at ATI Inc. When the challenge is searing heat, crushing stress, blistering corrosion, or any and all of the above, ATI earned the right to be a customer's first call. That's right. I'm lead reading from the script here. But the key thing is for more than a hundred years they've been meeting these challenges for customers whose systems need to fly higher, deeper, stand stronger. All of their materials enable customers to do amazing things like operating jet engines at 3,000 degrees, equipping the nation's defense, all of those different things. I'll get Dave to explain a little bit more about ATI later on in the show, but they operate on a worldwide basis, 57 locations, 17 countries, amazing company. Now I actually reached out today because also they're very social media if you like. I saw some great posts on LinkedIn. I was this is a company, these are people I want to talk to. So we're going to talk about that later on in the show. But for now we're going to go back to the beginning of Dave's career, how he first started in finance and treasury, some of the choices he made, and then we're going to bring the story up to date. So as always, I'll let Dave carry on with the show. Dave, over to you. How did it all first start for you, sir?

First, thank you very much, Mike. It's an honor to be here and I appreciate you reaching out. Happy to be on podcast, you know. Yeah. So to talk a little bit about my early career and how I ended up where I'm at, I started out maybe a little bit less conventional than most people who are in my seat. I Started out actually in college as a music major. I was interested in, I played bassoon, I was interested in music performance and ended up going into college as a music major. I did have a dual major in business. That was my dad's sage advice is you gotta make sure that you can pay the bills. And he was, I think, rightfully concerned that maybe music wasn't the right way to do it. Started out in music and ended up having a capital markets class about halfway through my college experience. It really exposed me to the capital markets and what that meant and that really solidified my interest in finance. And since then I've been trying to go down the path of or from then I was going down the path of finance and in ways to get a job and make money in finance. And it really progressed from there. So my first job out of college, again sticking with a little bit more of the non traditional theme. My wife and I both grew up in Youngstown, Ohio and decided that we wanted to move somewhere new. And when we graduated college we moved to Denver, Colorado, sight unseen. At least for me it was no family, no friends, no nothing. We really just packed up the car and headed west. And so my first job out of college was actually at a coffee shop and spent about a year working at a coffee shop to make sure I could put food on the table and from there was able to get some a couple a foot in the door with finance. I was able to earn my Series 7 licensure and my Series 66 licensure while I was working at the coffee shop and had a lot of connections with the people in the neighborhood. It was where I was. It was a very good location and was able to make a lot of connections and, and one of those connections ended up getting me a job. It was my first quote unquote real job out of college working at a company called computershare. And I was sitting on the trading floor. I was trading employee stock purchase plans and employee stock option plans. Was there for about a year and a half and certainly enjoyed it. It got me back in for my master's degree. So I started my master's degree while I was there, but after the time there Computer Share decided to, to move operations from the, the Golden Colorado office to, to a different office. So was stuck looking for a job and frankly relatively new out of school, working on my mba. Just really started looking for jobs in finance with larger companies and ended up landing a job in treasury, which I had really no conception of what treasury was. Landed a job with treasury at A company called First Data and I got put in touch with one of my, who somebody who's now my, a good friend of mine at First Data. He ended up hiring me on and got to work in projects and on the treasury operations team. And that was my first introduction into treasury and it was, was an eye opening experience working for a large company in, in treasury and getting to see all the different things that treasury did. But having graduated school, that's not really how. That wasn't necessarily the career path I had planned out. It was just one of those things where you take the incremental step and I ended up settling into a role that, that I actually enjoyed.

So and when you were, when they were pitching the idea of hey, this is treasury, you're like treasury, what did they say treasury was going to be like and what was it like? Were there any differences? I know it's a while ago but you know, did it cover everything that you thought it would because you'd got your first role? Okay, hang on, here's a Treasury position. What was it like then?

I would say it's probably less strategic than that. It was more just a, Hey, I need a job. And this sounds interesting to be, to be somewhat transparent, but no, I did like the idea that it was in finance first aid. At the time when I joined they owned Western Union and they were a large global company. So my idea was this sounds interesting. I, my boss and I clicked pretty quickly. I recognized that was a very important part of any job is being able to click with your boss and the work sounded interesting but even then I wasn't sure that's exactly what I wanted to do. But I recognized at that time that it was a great next step and it was the right next step. So I, I went ahead and took that step.

And so you got this intro to treasury and did that for two or three years. What then happened next? As I said before, Dave and I were talking about some of the tipping points, if you like, between moving companies, moving roles. What was the next thing for you?

Yeah, so the next thing was again, it was less my choice than it was something that was going on. First Data announced and I believe it was early 2006 that they were going to spin off Western Union as its own public company. And they walked through what, what that means for the employees and the management at the time helped determine who was going to go with which side of the company. And so initially I was slated to go to the First Data side. Working in it was projects within our treasury operations Group. And it was a few months before the spinoff was pulled aside by my old boss who was going over to the Western Union side. He said, listen, we need a little bit more bandwidth here. We need somebody who can really do a lot of the quantitative work that I had been doing at First Data. And he asked if I'd come over to Western Union. And it was one of those decisions do. How do you think about that decision to choose between what, what amounted to really two good options in front of me. But ultimately it came down to I've done a few years of the treasury operations and projects within treasury operations and this was a chance to get into the capital market side and that was a very appealing next career step for me. So just that the opportunity that came up and evaluating the choice that was in front of me, that was one of the things that I decided I wanted to do and frankly in hindsight was really a good kind of stepping stone for my career is that ability to get that capital markets experience and beyond the experience of the role itself, just the ability to participate in spinoff capitalizing a company for the first time. So it was a key part of the team that issued Western Union's first publicly issued notes, put together the, our credit facility work with the bank group, rating agencies, all of that. It was just at the time in my career, it was just really a landslide of new information and new experience. It was just completely valuable and something that very few people get to do in their career. And I was fortunate enough to be able to have that experience and then.

That experience developed from there, didn't it? But you started off in the capital markets and have had a number of people that then stay in capital markets maybe overstay because they're enjoying it so much, but you then took it to a different level, you went to different roles and things like that. Can you talk through why that was important? As you say, you got lucky in a good way. But what I mean by that is I get candidates coming to me, I want to be in capital markets. And sometimes that's quite tough to get because they're limited number of roles in treasury and they're even more limited in capital markets corporate finance. But you yourself, you did that for a period of time, but then moved onwards and upwards. Can you talk us through that?

Yeah, I think one of the things, and if I had any advice for people who were earlier in their career, I, and I've said this to the people who work for me, but your body of work and what you accomplish in Any role really helps act as your portfolio is. People look at you for what's available next. And so you asked about what led to the next step in my career. So I was in capital markets, I think it was about five years I was in capital markets and it was time that I was starting to think through, okay, what's next in my career. And had an opportunity come up and frankly it just came about. There was some discussions about what's next. I talked with my boss at the time, I talked with a couple other people around the company, said, hey, I'm just starting to think through what this may look like. And I got reached out to by somebody I worked with before to come over to Western Union's M and A group. And at the time we were trying to close one of Western Union's largest transactions with Travelex Global Business Payments. And to me it was just a good opportunity to try something else. But that's where I think that advice comes in is that portfolio of work really represents who you are. And the reason that I got reached out to was because of the things that I had worked on previously with this person. So they knew I had the capability to come in and really be adding value pretty quickly on just because they've seen me do that before.

Dave, I want to backtrack a bit. Apologies listeners, we should have done this because I'm just enjoying it so much and listening. But can you talk about. So you joined Western Union in 2006. You were there for a number of years. How did it. What was Western Union like when you started? Because you were there 06 to 2017. What was it like at the beginning versus as it developed? So when you started them, who are Western Union? What are they? We see the brand name everywhere, but what were they as a company at the time?

Yes, they're a money transbender. So really their goal is and I think they've got a really unique spot and I don't know that it's necessarily as appreciated as it should be, but they have a unique spot where they help with remittances, where it's where there's a cross border component and a cross currency component. And since spinoff it's really been also about compliance as well. That was there are kind of three key pillars and where transfers occur. With each of those three pillars, Western Union is really helping to facilitate that. If you think of a transfer from Venmo, that's usually going to be same currency, that's going to be domestic. There's not really a Big compliance component. Mostly it's going to be with those who are part of the banking system. Those aren't really where Western Union focuses their efforts. They focus on people who may not necessarily be banked and where there's going to be a cross currency component or at least one side of the transaction may not be banked and where there's a cross currency component and where there are compliance needs to make sure that the rules are being met around money transfer. Yeah, we had, when I was there, we had a board member talking about how most companies focus on the richest 1 billion in the world. Western Union really focused on kind of the next 4 to 5 billion of people below that tier. And so I think, as I've seen even working with bankers and investors, a lot of the experience that they have as bankers and investors in your company comes from their own personal tangible experience. And so I'm jumping ahead a little bit. We can certainly come back. But when I was at Walgreens, you could see with the bankers, there's stories of, hey, my daughter was sick last night. I went into a Walgreens. They really understood what it was. But I think it was a lot harder for investors and bankers to understand what Western Union did because they're just not really the target market for it.

Yeah, yeah. Because it's below their radar, as it were. But as you say, you go back to the Western Union, your development through there because you develop these portfolio of experiences. You then started to move, you knew the group and everything else. And again you started to build this portfolio by going to M and A and then talk us through the next moves.

Yeah, I was in M and A and I think one of the interesting things, and this is, I think the importance of trying new things. I came into Tamina and I had more of a quantitative background from the work, the capital markets work that, that we did so very heavy math and analysis and things like that. I assumed that there would be a lot of that in the M and A group and certainly there was that component of it. But by and large the largest part of my role while I was there was about coordination and getting a global team to work together to evaluate different projects and really being able to then put that into how we evaluate each opportunity. So it, it became a lot more about project management and people management than I expected going in. And I think as I've advanced through my career that would, that is one of the biggest assets that I gained in that experience that I had no idea I was going to gain when I walked in the door, it was. It's just that ability to experience new things, try out new and different roles that I think is really important because you don't know what experience you're going to get when you try it out.

And so talk us through then the next couple of positions because I want to get through to Walgreens and bring us up to David ati. So walk us through, please.

Yes. After about three years in M and A, I, I started asking what's next and what was going on. And at the time there was some transition happening at Western Union and some opportunities that opened up to come back and lead the team that I worked on within the Capital Markets Group. And it was just a little bit fortuitous, started asking the question about the same time that opportunity came up and it was just, it was a chance to come back and really blend the learnings that I had in our M and A team with the experience that I had for the first five years and frankly, lead a very talented team. To me, it was a great opportunity to come back, had the chance to work with some really dynamic people I knew at the time. I started thinking about overall career. Where do I want to be and what do I want to do? And that's really where I started mapping out, okay, where do I want to be in M and A? Do I want to be in finance? Do I want to be in Treasury? That it was around that time that I started saying, listen, I want to be a treasurer. I think that's really the path that I want to go on. And so to do that from the M and A seat, I needed to get back into treasury. And then I needed to start that progression from a Director of treasury, the Assistant Treasurer title, and then on to Treasurer is the most common path at least I had seen in my career. So I started asking, how does that look? And that really led me back to treasury to get those couple years of experience leading, leading that very talented team within the Capital Markets Group.

And then. So you did capital markets, let's bring in what happened next sort of thing. The next moves.

Yeah. So after that, I had been there about two and a half years as Director of Capital Markets and Investments within Western Union. I started looking at what roles are next and how do I advance. And it seems to be, I think there's a theme that when you start looking, answers start appearing just about as I started asking those questions, I got reached out to by a recruiter for Walgreens and I had to evaluate it against any internal opportunities. But Western Union, they'd done very well by me. I had a lot of different exposure and experiences within the group. Frankly, I, I felt it was really a time to, to try something else and try a different company. And so when Walgreens came up, it was a little bit closer to family. My wife and I at the time had a two and a four year old. So we said, now it's not a plane flight, it's a car ride back to where our family was. And so looked at that and frankly, when I was at Walgreens, it was a chance to go from a $6 billion company in terms of revenue at Western Union to if I recall correctly, about 120 some billion of revenue per year in Walgreens. And it was just a chance to try a much, much larger company. And I certainly had very good experience there and learned quite a bit when I was at Walgreens and bring us.

Then up to date. So ati, I touched on them at the beginning of the show. Who are they? What are they? In your words?

Yes. Yeah. So from Walgreens, I was there for about two, two years and started asking the question, okay, how do I advance and if I'm really on the treasurer path, what does that mean? And again, it's, it was one of those things where I, I had anticipated staying a little bit longer at Walgreens and really had just started asking that question when all of a sudden get a call from a recruiter that said, hey, we have this company. ATI would be interested in talking with you a little bit more about potential assistant treasurer role. And that was exactly what I was looking for. But got me from more of the capital markets funding team at Walgreens to something that was a lot broader. So I would have a lot broader of a role at ati. But the first step was ATI is not a household name. I had to look them up, I had to see what they did. I wasn't familiar with them. And what I saw was a company that was in the process of moving beyond just more of a stainless steel manufacturer to something that was a lot more specialized. So ATI historically had more of the legacy stainless steel business where they, they melted and rolled stainless steel and then they also, and a number of other products as well. But they also had a segment of the business that was focused on aerospace and defense. But as I was doing my research, you can see the transition of the company from being that legacy kind of mixed player to something that is a lot more intentional and focused on high performing products that frankly Other people have a difficult time making since I've even before I joined, they started hearing paring back the portfolio to focus more and more on specialized materials and specialized metals and getting rid of some of the legacy products that they had made. And that continued after I joined. In 2020. We got out of the, the commodity stainless steel business to really focus our time, our effort, our money on being a high performing aerospace and defense company. So where we are now is we are a metals and materials company for the aerospace and defense industry primarily. We try to produce materials that have a material science component to it. So something that is not a standard commodity grade material, but something that is a lot more purpose built for and purpose designed for the application. The other thing that ATI really focuses on is materials where there are process technologies. So one of our big products that we make are discs that go in the center of the hot section of a jet engine. And to make that, you have to start with a nickel alloy. You have to melt it down, turn it into powder by running it through an atomizer and then reconstitute effectively a round of metal that then gets further forged in, in very specialized forging processes so that it can withstand the extremes of temperature and stress that occur in the middle of the hot section of a jet engine.

Okay, so I'm just sitting here just literally geeking out on it. It's really cool. But so those are the things that the company does. What, so you started there as assistant treasurer and then VP treasurer and stuff to talk about treasury in that industry, if you would. Because I think if I was a listener and I'm in FMCG or in, in a water company, I'm going okay, but what's Treasury, how's treasury structured with you guys?

Yeah, treasury is a, a smaller team where I'm, I'm. This isn't Walgreens, that, that is a big company. We have, including myself, I think six people on the team, on the treasury team. And we have responsibility for kind of the classic treasury elements, but also our risk and insurance group as well. And treasury for us is really about the fundamentals. We've got the cash management arm, we've got an asset based lending facility, our credit facility that we use and that leads to bank relationships. And then we've got a capital structure that's a little bit over 2 billion in debt right now that we manage. And that comes with rating agency relationships as well. It's a pretty lean team, but it's one that's also, I would say that the transition Since I've been here has been a lot of that follows what the company's done about trying to modernize. When I joined, we had a lot of people who were very experienced in treasury processes, had been the same for quite a while and the team was extraordinarily effective. Very few mistakes ever occurred with the team, but the question was, if we want to start looking at things like a Treasury workstation to automate some of the processes that we have, what does that mean and how do we implement something like that and what does that mean for the bandwidth that we have for the rest of the team? And so really my role here has been to ask those sort of questions of how do we take the processes that are highly effective and really transform them into something that's efficient, where we are leveraging the talents of our team as individuals and getting the most out of our team so that they are. They also find the day rewarding where they come in and they can do the jobs that they're meant to do. And there's not re keying of data or manual entry of things that can be automated relatively easily. So that's really been the journey that we've been on since we've been here. I would say the other side of it is really with the evolution of business and becoming more of a value add player. That's come with revenue growth, that's come with increased margin. Now, I think with exception of the pandemic that being an aerospace and defense company was really tough through that. But since then we've really looked to step up how we're viewed by investors. So we've reached out a lot to investors on the fixed income side to just tell our story, frankly, make sure that we are being viewed as the quality company that we are working with our bank group to make sure that we have with our credit facility, that we have the terms that we need, that we have the terms that allow us to grow. So it's been a lot of work on that side to. To really keep pace with where the company overall is going.

And you and I talked about how you've got this treasury team, but they don't just sit within their silo and just do their treasury stuff. Again, one of the examples of one of your colleagues, I'd seen a video about how ATI encourages team members and stuff to get involved across the group as well, rather than just be Treasury. Can you talk us through that? Because I think that's an interesting thing that if you're listening as either a more junior treasury professional or a more senior who mentors and leads your teams? This is what Dave and the guys at ATI do. So can you give us an insight to that?

Yeah. So as we started putting in a lot of the technology that we had, and so the treasury workstation and getting rid of some of the automated or the manual processes and replacing it with automation, the question came up, okay, you're creating bandwidth, but what do you do with that bandwidth? Fortunately, we were in a position where we had a lot of responsibilities for a very narrow team. And so one of the things that, that I've done in with the help of the leaders on my team and my team as a whole is really reevaluate, okay, what are. What should treasury be doing and what should different roles be doing? Should we have the classic silos of cash management on one side, new capital markets on the other side, and apart from the operational interchange that occurs, should we just leave it like that, or should we look at different opportunities that we can create for the team? And one of the things that I've really challenged our team to do is to think, okay, if we are creating bandwidth through some of the automation that we're doing, how do we leverage what is effectively a big workload? How do we also then with that, build opportunities for some of the people who have an interest to learn other sides of the business? How do we get them the exposure to that? And collectively, we as a team have sat down and looked at different roles and responsibilities and how we can change it, how we can grow different people's career by getting people who may have been more focused on cash management, more involved in things like insurance and leasing and pension and the investment management elements in our pension, and really tried to break down some of those silos to create a lot more of a flat team. And to me, that provides for some of the junior members on our team more opportunities to be able to grow and see different aspects of treasury was they look down at their career. Number one, they've got the ability to build it up on their resume and say, I've seen this, I've done that. Which I think is an important part of growth and how any future opportunities may evaluate them as potential employees. But I think it's also a very important thing for just keeping them interested and engaged. Frankly, it's. I think it's really a great way to leverage the resources that we have as a team to achieve the workload that we collectively have.

And Dave, you and I touched on the fact, and I touched on a little bit there, treasury, social media, the group itself. And I was speaking to someone actually today and yesterday, both of them mentioned, oh, you're all over LinkedIn, you're all doing this and you're doing this and it's great. And I do the content, do the podcast. But I was making the point to them, I said, the reason I'm all over LinkedIn and all over that channel is to spread the word of treasury, do all this, but also so that more people can learn, more people can engage with treasury. Twenty years ago, treasury went off into its corner and it's taken 20 years to come back into the mainstream. So with yourself, you guys very much embrace that. And I know that's a company thing and you guys are very much part of that. Can you describe that for the listeners as well?

Yeah. So we. And a shout out to our communications team, they've really tried to. On our social media, they've really tried to focus on the employees and having the employees talk about the story within ATI rather than just having executives do it. And part of it was they did a bit about what it's like to work at ati. And on that I had one of my, one of my team members, there were a number of us who were part of the interview, but one of our team members was being interviewed and she, at one point in time, we had a company band and on her interview she talked about the band and she talked about how the band would work and build songs around themes within ati. And she did something more bold than I, I would ever be willing to do. But she, on the interview, she sang some of the songs that, that they put together and that ended up on social media. But it's been a good opportunity to see a little bit about what the people are like at ati. And I think it's very telling and it tells a very compelling story about the quality of company that we are.

We are going to put that link to that in our show notes so that people can. Because that also engaged me with you guys so that it's doing its job. Thumbs up to the communications guys. And that's not just so that they approve this podcast, but they will do. And each and every week, you and I, I talk on the podcast, we spread the word of treasury and some of the other things just haven't quite got to the end of the show. What are the things, though, that you think that treasury, by its very nature, needs to be thinking about at the moment? You and I have touched on AI and all that stuff. And it's not really that, it's more just where are you seeing your responsibility for treasury going and what are the things that other treasurers, maybe when you're at conferences, we'll be at AFP later this year. What are the things that you think treasury and treasurers like yourself need to be thinking about?

Yeah, so I think there's a couple things, I think just being engaged with the company as a whole, so even with peers, but also the broader team just plugging in, listening to what's going on and trying to lead with solutions. So what are the pain points that the businesses are feeling and the people who are, that are on the front line? What are they, what are the. Their pain points and how can we be a solution? The other part of it is working kind of hand in hand with your peers. To me, Treasury's always interfaced a lot with tax, accounting and legal. It's the holy trinity for Treasury. Treasury personnel is working with them, but just making sure that there's a good relationship and that we're working hand in hand and communicating openly. I think that's a really important element that really differentiates high quality teams from others is that ability to communicate, cross function like that and propose solutions. Those are really two of the key things that I see beyond some of the more topical things, AI, of course, automation. But I think those are some of the kind of foundational tenets of where treasury and treasurers can really make an impact on the business, is just connecting with people and trying to figure out what are their pain points and what are ways that we can help, what's the strategy of the company and how can we help really just taking that cue and running with it and figuring out what are the steps that we have coming up and how can we take those in a way that really reinforces what collectively we as a team are trying to do.

And David, for you as a treasurer, how do you instigate that? You talked about that holy trinity of treasury and Tax and legal and things like that. How do you encourage that? Because I know we talked about this before, but other people say this is all very well, Dave, you've got a big team. I know you haven't got a big team, but how do. What's the word? If I got pushed back from a treasurer recently, said there's only me and a couple of other colleagues, how do we do this? And I said, look, they were going to use AI to automate some of their processes. I said, but that just gives you more space to then go and integrate with the business. Not this enables you to get out there and things. How do you do it? Or any tips before we, you know, get towards the end of the show?

Yeah, no, I think that there's a couple things I think. I think just a dialogue is important and it doesn't always have to be the most critical elements that you reach out to. It's just having that dialogue that if something is coming up, be proactive with communication. I think the other thing, and I'll give you a great example, you brought up AI and us as a Treasury team, we're focused a little bit more on just automation. So I think we're not quite to the AI stage, but when we went about implementing the treasury workstation, one of the big benefits beyond us having time relieved was we were able to help our accounting team save time because the historically, a lot of the transactions that came through on the corporate side were entered manually into our erp. And so having a tms, we were able to plug right into our ERP and automate a lot of that. And thinking. That's where I say, as you're thinking through the projects that you're looking at, what other ways can you easily leverage that to make other people's lives around the company easier and save time collectively? And frankly, I think the time that we saved is balanced between treasury and accounting. But that's not something that I look at and say, how do I get more of that? It's to me, that's a win because that gives our accounting team time to do things that are more important and more impactful than re keying transactional data into the year erp.

And so as we wrap up today's show, we always wrap it up with we'll put your LinkedIn details and show notes. You've heard this yourself on a couple of them. We're over 330 podcasts now, so we do it every week because it's a nice way to close off because I want to give this advice to you listeners from I'm going to quiz an amazing treasurer, Dave, about his reflections and if you're listening today, what choices you need to make, what to be as successful as someone like Dave. Can you give. We'll put your LinkedIn details in the show notes. What are the takeaways you're going to give to the audience today?

Yeah, so I would say there's really three things that I offer. One, people matter. And as much as I started in treasury, more on a quantitative path and that was a lot of analysis and things like that. It's really the people that drive the business and make things work. So investing in your relationships and people, your network is really important. But also within the company, that's important as well. I think the other thing is raise your hand for opportunities, even if it's something that's parallel or adjacent. I've gained so much by raising my hand or saying yes to the opportunities that come up. And I think it's really put me in a good position to where I am today. It also gives you the ability to learn different skills and different talents as well. And the last thing is, I think, especially for people who are more junior in your career, just understand that more important than your resume is the work that you've accomplished. Because people, they are people that will be asking, who is the next person to fill this role within a company will be looking at those people that they've worked with and evaluating that, making that determination based on the body of work that those people have put together. I think that portfolio of work or that body of work that you've done is really representative of who you are and it has the opportunity to open doors, even if it's not the most glamorous type of role or, or glamorous type of task that you're asked to do. Just understand that, Stan, the output from that really represents who you are. And it can be the differentiator between an opportunity and maybe looking elsewhere for an opportunity that's available.

I love that. And it's. And I'm jumping in because usually I just. That's it close up. But I think the point you've made there is I'm speaking at AFP later this year, giving people networking tips. And one of the key things I'm trying to ask treasury professionals, we did this in Chicago the other day. I said, look, how many of you guys do cash management? Everyone. How much do fx? My hand's been up. And I was like, so basically, if you walk up to someone after this session and say, hi, I'm Bill, I do cash management. Such and such. Yeah. I said, that's in the nicest way. That's really boring. No, it should be. It's not boring in the work itself. I said, what difference did you make by that work? You did? What did you, as you said, accomplish? And so you're getting this firsthand, people listening from Dave, that, yeah, wrap up what you've accomplished in your job. Even if it, as you say, sometimes it's tough, sometimes it's not the most interesting work, but what have you. What difference have you made to your current company, your role and this? And then next time you meet someone in your treasury code, go and tell them that. Would you say that's right?

Yeah. No, I think that's really important is being able to summarize the value that you can add. How do you stand out from other people who do cash management or fx. And that's really. I think the important factor is distilling it down from the what I do to the. So why does somebody care?

Love it. Last words with Dave. That's it, we're done. Brilliant podcast. Thank you very much, sir, and looking forward to catching up with you later in the year. And, yeah, thank you very much for your time today. Much appreciated.

Yeah, thank you very much, Mike. Appreciate it.

Thanks for tuning into another great episode. You really enjoy it. Thank you very much. You make it worthwhile us recording them with these amazing treasury professionals right the way across the world, from the us, across the uk, across Europe, and there's lots more exciting guests to come and lots more live events. We love delivering this content. We get asked now, is this what you do? Do you just do content? You just do. No, the reason we do the content is to get to know you guys, to give you back the tips for success, if you like. But we're here to help you hire someone. If you need to recruit, call us. Because at our heart, we are a treasure recruitment company. That's how we pay the bills, that's how we pay for the podcast and that's what we're passionate about. We hear from you at events and things. Can we also help you find your next great role? Can we help you hire? The answer is yes, that's exactly what we do. Yes, we do our treasury salary survey@treasurysalary.com that helps us know exactly how to benchmark not only your salary, but also when you're looking to hire. We know exactly what the market is paying. Wherever you might be, whether it's the us, UK or Europe, we want to make sure that we are the best informed, that we're not just finger in the air. We always know. If you want to hire the best in treasury, don't hesitate to contact us. Go onto the website treasuryrecruitment.com or in the US, you can contact Joe Grabowski. Europe, contact the lovely Katie. For more senior roles and roles across the uk, reach out and contact me or drop any of us an email. Joe treasuryrecruitment.com Katie, treasuryrecruitment.com or mike@treasuryrecruitment.com Let us help you make the hiring process as amazingly seamless and easy as our podcasts are to listen to. Thanks for your amazing support and looking forward to see you at either an event or a conference very soon. Or just give me a call. Let's help you find the next role or recruit the next treasury professional. All right, until next week, many thanks.