Building Strong Relationships in Treasury with Tanja Holden

Foreign.

Welcome to this week's Treasury Career Corner podcast where I interview treasury professionals about their treasury careers. Each and every week I talk to them about how they built their careers, where they are now, where they see both themselves and the treasury profession going to next. Let's get on with the show. In this week's show, delighted, joined by Tanya Holden, the group treasurer, Ocado Group. Ocado was established in the UK back in 2000. When they started they were about changing the way people shop for groceries. Twenty years later, Ocado, a FTSE 100 client focused business providing services in technology automation to grocery e commerce businesses right around the world. But I'm going to get Tanya to talk a bit more about the group which she's recently joined and everything else. She can explore that a little bit more. We've known each other for many years, so it's a nice relaxed conversation, a good catch up. But we're going to go right back to the beginning as we always do every show and Tanya's going to take us from the beginning of that and we're going to talk about a nice segue from classical studies into Treasury. Not your typical start, but if you want I'll hand over the mic as I do. Tanya, it's over to you. Maybe talk us through how you first ever started and then talk us through from there. Over to you.

Thanks Mike. I think a lot of my life has been I didn't have a plan, so that included doing classics. When I was doing A levels. I really didn't know what I wanted to do at university and classics was a way of doing all the things I did at A level, languages, history, literature, all in one degree. So it was really broad. But like many people, particularly maybe humanities, I really didn't know what I wanted to do when I left. So I did a lot of temping and administration and then finance. The hourly rate was just that little bit better. So I thought well why not? And I realized it really, it really suited me as a career and I mainly started really from the ground up. I did expenses at McKinsey & Co. Management consulting firm. I then went off to do a lot of accounts payable work as a, as a temp and in between I was doing a lot of traveling as well. So I think the late 90s was a great time to take because there was always work. You could easily step away for three months, six months as a young person, as you do and can change your career and do a little bit of traveling as well.

Yeah, with yourself Then when did you discover treasury you were doing these temp roles? Did you discover it during that part of the early part or was that new?

No, it was later. So I went off to do, you know, when I realized finance was what I wanted to do. I went off and, and applied then for graduate trainee schemes with accountancy firms. So at that time the Big four had a recruitment freeze. But actually it worked really well for me because I was then applying for medium sized firms which I really liked. So I joined more Stevens and I did that for about a year. I was about 25, 26 at that point. I'd already had a few years experience. You know, I really enjoyed the audit work but I think I didn't click at the time, just how critical the exams were. I was really focused on, on being a great employee and being a good audit team person, but I just didn't quite understand the significance. So I didn't pass my exams. I passed some but not, you know, get one chance. But actually I just kept moving forward. I didn't let that get me down. I just thought, well, I'll just change direction. I really liked cash. I've always sort of enjoyed it seemed so straightforward to me, cash. So I went and did bank reconciliation for EMAP PLC up in Peterborough. They were just building a shared service center up in Peterborough and I was part of a team that was brought in, the robust four of us, maybe because they had implemented a new ERP and no reconciliation had happened. And actually bank reconciliation, I think in every career this has come up the whole bank reconciliation companies forgetting to kind of think about bank reconciliation. So we're part of the big cleanup. Did that role for about a year and a half with hundreds of thousands of items. And I, I was responsible for the accounts payable bank accounts got it all clean and we had a clean audit. So it was a really great thing to do. And they had a Treasury department as well and they didn't have anyone to kind of back up the treasury, the one treasury person they had. So I then became the backfill for him and learned a little bit more about Treasury. Meanwhile, I was living in Peterborough, really wanted to meet Bristol and I was interviewing and then was given the opportunity to join Dyson, so move to Dyson as their cash accountant. And I did that role for about six months and I was doing SEMA at this point in time.

Yeah, for those that don't understand some of our international. We have done a lot of listenership and big hello to all the guys in the US and across there, a lot of the US guys won't necessarily understand Siemen. Chartered Management Accounting. Can you explain that just briefly for the guys?

Yeah, I think there are two main accountancy kind of qualifications we can get in the uk, so SEMA and then acca. And it's a way of. I think in the uk, we don't have to do that degree at university, you don't have to do accountancy, for example. You can really learn on the ground, do that formal qualification, working within a company. So I started doing the SEMA exams. I just felt it was something I needed to do, but I wasn't really totally sure if that was to be for me in the long term when I looked at that full qualification. But I was building a really strong relationship with the treasury team at Dyson. There was just about two of them at the time and they previously hadn't had a great time with someone applying their cash, so they would try to cash position in the morning and found that no one had applied their cash. They never really quite understood their position. So we worked to build the relationship and I always made sure their cash was posted first thing. That was the first thing I did because it was big numbers, it really mattered and they really appreciated that, that how much I took that to heart and I felt I was really responsible for that, to make sure their work would be right, you know, they were going to be in a good state, start their day.

Were you doing that deliberately or was that just a thing you did? And then they started to go, oh, actually, can you get my rear, please?

Yeah, I don't think I did it deliberately. I just think that's probably how I am. Just I like to be helpful and I felt that was my job and I just liked the tidying. I liked reconciliation because it was just so tidy every day. You had an achievement and it just was very satisfying.

Completion.

Yeah, yeah, A sense of completion. And it was just nice to help them, I guess. I didn't think about it as anything other than that that was my job and it made sense to me what they were saying. So I think an opportunity had someone retiring and they approached me and said, hey, do you want to apply for the analyst role? And I thought, well, why not? Let's give that a go. And I interviewed and was successful. So I joined treasury and I would say from the moment I joined, I never looked back. I just absolutely loved treasury immediately. I knew it was for me and I'd never had that feeling before. Just feeling like that is then my future I never looked back from there. Yeah, I was completely hooked and I just love it. I love my. I've loved every job I've done and I just never tired of Treasury. I'm definitely going to be a career treasurer because I.

Well, that's fine. And I don't mind, you know, that you're on the treasury career corner. And I've been a Treasury recruiter. I did teaching recruitment and then someone said, oh, do finance recruitment. I wasn't sure. And they said, it pays twice as much. I was like, yeah, I can do that.

Yeah, that's what happened.

Then they went, oh, we do treasurers. I mean, accountants, really. And then the first treasurers I met were the. I've always said they were the first of the bar and the last to leave it. Very relationship focused, Looking at the future, all about that. And that's, you know, we've just got that so many times on the podcast and that's what I got. And I was like, oh, yeah, this. These are my people. This is it in 20 odd plus years. Now my wife and kids are like, oh, yeah, they're treasury widows. You know, they're like, oh. But I said, yeah, but it's treasury, it's cool. They're like, yeah, still finance dad, you know, but. But they're wrong, you know, because it's great and, you know, I love talking about it and stuff, so. So you were then hooked into. Again, we take it for granted. You're like, Dyson, listeners are going, they should hopefully know it. I've got a couple of. 1, 2, 3. Yeah, I've got four devices in my house anyway. But enough of the fandom there for Dyson. But Dyson, who are what and what are they?

They're a vacuum. Where they were at that time predominantly focused on cleaners and they were very innovative. That was really innovation. Yeah, yeah, it was all about innovation. The engineering function was absolutely phenomenal. The amount of investment and thought, not only the functionality but the design, that's really important as well. Well, and I think they did at the time have washing machines as well, but they were really focused on the vacuum cleaners. So when I joined treasury, it was myself, the treasury manager and Tax and Treasury Director. And over that period they just moved to Malaysia. I don't know exactly when, but that had already happened. But when I was there, they were predominantly a UK that their revenues were predominantly from the uk. And over the time I was there eight and a half years, the overseas business grew and grew.

Global.

Yeah, yeah, it went global and now, of course, the airflow, they've decided to specialize not just in vacuum, in airflow, everything airflow. So I was there when they launched the hand dryer, the fan and I left around the time that they moved into the hair dryer, I think was being developed at that time. So really phenomenal business, really focused on innovation and it was very sophisticated. Treasury department headed up by the Tax and Treasury Director. So I learned a lot and I was mainly an analyst there. I did leave as senior analyst but it just grew enormously, really. My role was treasury dealer and over time it naturally developed into analyst. I started doing my treasury exams. The first one I did was the International Cash management. So I sort of started with the mid tier paper and then decided, right, this is definitely for me. And I then did the whole amct and it was definitely really hard work. It wasn't natural for me because I come from this Classics background. I was so motivated in a way that I wasn't the seamer. And, yeah, I love the forward thinking picture of treasury, the relationship management and that sort of business partnering you're often doing kind of unnoticed behind the scene. I just loved every part of it.

You're doing amct, which again are the UK exams. You have AFP in the US and a variety of others. Did you find they were really helping you with your role? I had this with one of the guys, he'd done the MCT exams, put all the books up, I placed him in a role and a week later he joined this company where they had a profits warning. So he was like, oh, great. Got those back off the shelf and went through that. Did you find it because people sort of go back and forth about qualification to work to help it. No, you don't have to, but it's a. Not only a tick box, but actually helped you in your role. Did you find that yourself?

Yes, and I refer to it all the time. I'm very regularly referring to the exams and particularly people in my team who were more recently. But it's gone through a huge transformation in that, that qualification. So whenever they're studying, you know, we get the latest PDFs and the coursework, because I'm constantly referring to. I'm using that word, constant. I'm regularly relying on it.

Yeah.

And I think with the exams, it's so painful doing it. You're working, you know, you've got your own life, your personal life, family life, whatever it might be, and it's really hard work. I never regretted doing it. All that investment and it's incredibly helpful and also just gives companies a benchmark to think this kind of background you might have and that qualification.

And you then made the move to cola US Corporate, but you stayed locally in the southwest of England. Can you talk us through that move and what that was like?

Yes, so I was very focused on staying in the southwest as a Treasury, but there weren't many companies to go to and I think at Dyson they were very supportive of me and my career. There just wasn't a lot of movement for me and I'd been a senior analyst for a long time. An analyst and I really wanted to get that sort of first management experience. So Kohler EMEA Corporate Services, that was the sort of shared service center for Kohler in Europe in the EMEA region, they had a manager role that I literally thought, I'll just try. I don't think I'm going to get this job because I've never been a manager. So I was very relaxed because I thought, I've got nothing to lose. Yeah, whatever, I'll just try. Why not try? And I really went in with no expectations. So. So I was relaxed and I was myself. And it's six months of interviews. It was a very heavy interview process. Lots of psychometrics. I had like a two or three hour interview with a psychologist from America. I met the whole American team all virtually on the day when no one was doing virtual stuff. I. That was quite unusual to be sitting there in a sort of room with video. That was an unusual experience. And got the job. So I couldn't believe it. I was very, you know, I was delighted but I didn't realize I maybe was quite senior at that point. So I joined the team, I think in January 2013, I believe. And I think when my first day, I think someone ran over and said, oh, they're starting the media, the finance leadership team. So I thought I was going along to take some notes actually. I was part of that team. I was actually part of that team.

Again, can you explain Koda headquartered in Wisconsin, but can you explain who. Koler Kohler again, for the listeners. You and I take it for granted. You know, nobody said. But I sometimes have to sort of step back and get right. Oh, we need to re. Explain to people who. Who the group are.

Yeah, yeah. So they're very. It's very interesting companies, that private company, one of the oldest private companies in America. They're very well known in America. Every single. If you go to America, any hotel business at home will have some Kohler bathroom Product, the bathroom, manufacturing faucets, sinks. And like Dyson, they're very focused on design being part of your life, that everyone should benefit from beautiful products in the home. Myra is the UK brand. They also power that started in the 20s, so providing engines, generators around, that's also global. So it's a really interesting business to work for. So I was head of treasury for the EMEA region, servicing the team and I were servicing treasury needs around Europe, whether it was financing, cash management payments. And we were very focused on automation because shared services is all about. You've got to automate all these things, manual processes and standardized. So I really learned about that type of Treasury. It was about innovation, using your systems. And the team, when I started, there were two cashiers and over that time that I was there, we really built a full service Treasury Department.

Well, I'm going to pause you there. What does that mean again? I know, but what should treasury be as a full service? And because you were there for Cola for 2013.

Yeah, almost 10 years.

Yeah. So what does full service mean to you? Because again, I was talking to one of my clients, we were talking about another client who are relocating their team to Luxembourg and they said, oh, it's the full service. Well, what does full service mean? What, you know, I haven't been asked. And he was like, are they going to issue commercial paper? Are they going to do all the capital raising from there or is it going to be done somewhere else? Are they going to do this? They can do this. And he quizzed me for about the. Gave me 10amazing questions which I've related back to my client because I'm going, right, we need to nail this down. What do you mean by full service in that sense? If you would.

Oh, okay, no, that is a very good question. You're quite right. So I reported into a Treasury team in the us they were responsible for financing the company regionally. We were responsible for cash management payments and very local facilities, largely overdrafts, trade finance lines, guarantees, that kind of thing. So when I mean full service that Kohler acquired a lot of businesses around emea and all of those had their own finance departments. None of them had specific treasury, but there were lots of people doing treasury activity. So full service, I think, meaning that we became that center that the businesses would come to treasury to either do something regionally for them or we would then have conversations with the U.S. so all the treasury needs would be met by either myself and the team or the U.S. treasury team.

Yeah. And you would look after them. And everything else. And throughout that 10 year period you came in what was the shape of Treasury Day 1 through to Day 10. Because also then you made a move location wise. Talk us through that transition there because that's a great 10 year period as well.

Yes. So when I joined treasury was a cashiering function. Payments were being done outside of treasury at that time. Treasury team, I think, didn't have a Treasury identity as such. I think, you know, I upskilled the team and as a team we developed a vision. This is not cashiering, this is business partnering, helping the businesses grow, thinking about instruments they could use to, particularly in the trade finance space, for example, helping them grow as a company, making sure all the needs were met. We're thinking about currency, how to control currency for them, making sure all the payments were made for the suppliers. Because I think anyone who works in a shared services, there are lots of challenges meeting what business need. These transitions happen very quickly. Meaning you're transitioning work from a local finance team to a shared service center. There's a huge growth curve that needs to happen. You can't easily replace the knowledge a local finance team have. So you have to really build those strong relationships. Businesses start coming to you and they see you as a business partner rather than as a sort of threat that you've essentially taken away their finance team. So over that time the team developed into analysts. Someone in the team who's actually still at Kohler, she also, like me, suddenly realized what treasury was and loved it and did her exams and is doing a great job over there.

And you were there for a period of time and then you made the move to the us. Can you talk through that? Because you know, bigger role and everything else you were then really, okay, you've been doing the servicing of all the business so you really understood the businesses. And then you made a transition which quite unusual all the time when people say, oh, can I work in the U.S. and yes, if you're sponsored by the company, if you go across and that, oh, well, no, I just want to go over and get a job that you can't. You need a green card.

And you know, it was exactly like that.

Yeah.

When I joined Kola, I asked that question, would that be a possibility? And I was told a flat no, no, that's not going to happen. So that's fine. I'm just happy learning in the EMEA region. But I built a really strong relationship with the treasury head office, treasury that we were also partnering and I was very good at communicating relationship Building because they also, the corporate team also had their own trying to figure out what was happening in and funding it. I always got them involved with everything. So we became sort of one team rather than a kind of regional versus head office. We started our identity became we are one big team. And I built a good relationship with the treasurer over there. And when my boss, the corporate treasurer left, it just sort of organically happened that I offered to help because in the US people don't have long notice periods gone within a week or two. Yeah. And it was a particularly important time percola because we were developing systems and that we didn't want to lose that continuity. So I offered to come over for a month and support the transition. And then over that time we then discussed whether or not that would be a role that I could start fulfilling and it would make sense to move to corporate. So as a family, we moved out there for about six weeks just to sort of try it out.

Yeah, try before you buy.

Yeah, try to see what we felt. There are lots of similarities between Wisconsin and Ukraine and it felt it was quite an easy transition, but it's far from family. And I had a young family and of course the spouse, you know, my husband needed to be happy and he loved it. He absolutely loved being out there. We loved it as a family. So we moved there and in 2019 and then I joined that kind of corporate treasury team over there.

Obviously a different role, you know, how would you contrast them position wise? But you're really at the heart of the treasury, right at the heart of things. What was it like?

Yeah, that did feel different because suddenly I was in the center of things which I really liked. I had more context to things that were happening and continuing to build that treasury team vision, that one team mentality that we had because we had China treasury, the Asia Pacific treasury team that were still reporting up through the businesses rather than Treasury. So over that time that I was in the role as senior manager for corporate Treasury, I built a really good relationship, the China treasury team. And then eventually they reported onto me. So again, we had that single focus as Treasury. We were deciding as a team. Myself and the managers who reported into me that we are developing treasury together. It was always as a group. And so everyone's identity was treasury not well, we have some regional Treasury. It was always we are corporate, we are Treasury. Yeah, we are Treasury. And that was a sort of powerful thing. And I feel that the team liked that as well. The managers. I had a very good relationship. It was a peer group, essentially. Not like, hey, I'm the manager and they're reporting into me. It was very much a peer group. Ideas were shared. It was very inclusive.

I talked to actually to the podcast this week with someone, and we didn't actually dig into Covid or Pandemic and everything else because it wasn't really that relevant to their role or our discussion. Whereas with yourself, you'd move there prior to Pandemic, you'd gone into this role. What was that like for you? How did the organization react? And, well, how did you run things sort of thing as one treasury.

So, yeah, that first year, 2019, before the pandemic happened, we did a lot of good things in that year. And then it was about March 2020 that of course this was happening to everyone, wasn't it? Where you sort of started hearing about the pandemic and then it started getting closer and closer. So then I do remember even two weeks to prior, prior to everyone bring in snacks at Kohler, and they had a really nice culture where, you know, they would have potluck suppers and everyone bring in crock pots full of hot foods. And it was just very sociable. And I remember our treasurer saying, I don't think we should be sharing food like that anymore. It's just not a good idea. With the Pandemic.

Yeah.

And then within two weeks of that, then it was, so we're going to shut down the office and everyone's going to work from home. But people transitioned really quickly. I think that seems to be the story everywhere. You got used to it. It certainly was challenging because family at home and I had young kids who were really young, and my husband was working for a law firm at the time, and they were not very flexible, unfortunately. I was generally having to figure out work and also having very young children. I think My daughter was 4 or 5 and my son was about 2. So it was definitely difficult. But we did get through it. Koda were very supportive. I had a very supportive boss who was just very flexible. Hey, you're sometimes going to work in the evenings because you had some disruptions. It feel it worked well. But maybe I'm forgetting how hot here it was. It just. It's almost. You just forget. It was tough, though. I guess if I really think about was tough.

But I tell it really the weird bit is done this in a number of panel sessions eventually that, you know, in February, everyone was in the office and then maybe talking about, oh, well, maybe we'll do some transition. You know, a month and a half later, everyone was working from their home office stroke shed. It's like that was it, Bob.

Well, we all thought it was so short term. I remember it will all be back in a month. That's what I remember. Yeah. It didn't seem like such a big deal going into. Because I think if you'd realized, well, this is going to be a year, that would have seemed overwhelming. It just kind of organically happened.

And I think you'll have taken more tea bags from your office.

Yes, I did remember when we finally opened up the office again, having to clean out. Yeah. All of that kind of stuff. Because I think I'll be back in a month. But I wasn't.

The point I was going to make on that is we've talked about it, this new way of working and working remotely rather than working from home. I think that's a better way of describing working remotely. Everyone's just, as you talked about that with your husband's work, that they were less flexible. Well, you had to get more flexible. But now actually I've seen this reverse transition as people are coming back. Oh, yeah. Well, we're, you know, coming back into the office and we're going to work one day a week, maybe two days a week. But there are also people going, yeah, I'd like to be back in five days a week. That is a negative if you're going to say, oh, it's going to be five days a week. Back in the office, people proved in that a month later in the pandemic that they can work 100% from it. They don't want to always work from home. I don't think, you know, people are social creatures and everything else, but you don't have to. You don't have to be schlepping on the train every day to get into work. It's just not necessary. I think that the clients and we recruited for that brace this remote working or an element of it, they can pick people. Whereas again, it sounds like Kola were very understanding of that. And that certainly worked.

And it did. Absolutely. And I think the hours are different. I think I spoke to a colleague of mine, roughly in my age group that, you know, for us, work life balance is 9 to 5 and go home, it's changed. And maybe younger people, this is more what they've been sold that you get very flexible. You can go to your gym between 10 and 12 during the day, but then maybe you're going to work a bit later. It's just a very different way of working and it suits me but it's definitely a bit of a change. I think trying to keep the boundaries, that's the hard thing. Now it's very easy to be starting work very early or checking for emails in the evening.

And this blended way of working is.

Yeah, blended. That's the way to describe it.

Yeah. And just, you know, your commute, shower to kitchen to desk and back again. And then, oh, it's nine o' clock, I'll just check that one thing. And then you're suddenly drawn into it for another hour. And it's not about being rewarded, it's more than having the break and, you know, getting away from the desk and everything else. That's one of the key things.

Yes, absolutely.

Well, talk us through then, the transition back, because you're now with Ocado. Talk us through that journey again. I know about it, but for the listeners out there and who accado are and stuff like that.

Yes. So we, we were living out in Wisconsin, you know, things really started opening up again in 2021. We were getting back to normal life. We absolutely, absolutely loved our time in Wisconsin. But as a family, we had. We had aging parents, both myself and my husband, and felt that it was the right time to move back to the uk. And I think Mike, you and I even had a conversation over that time, you know, what was the sort of market looking like. I wasn't sure what Cola would feel about it because I was. I was Senior Manager, Corporate Treasury. It's a head office role that I had. Again, the same boss that I reported to for almost 10 years, he was very supportive and made it work. Cola were incredibly supportive, supported to relocate myself and my family and I'm always thankful for that. Definitely was the right decision, but certainly having come back in the uk and at that time I was promoted to Treasury Director and that, to me was a real sign of Kola's faith in me that I could continue to act in my existing role. But from the uk. And of course, because everyone was used to remote working, there weren't any challenges to that people were used to. I had teams in China, the uk, the us. We worked really well as this one unit, but certainly for me, I felt I was out of head office and missed things, of course, because they're six hours behind, meetings could be happening four or five o' clock their time, but of course that for me would be quite late. It was a very. This team were really stable as well and it seemed like a good time to just start thinking, well, where do I want my career to go next. And I was not really seeking anything. I was just starting to think about. It was the very early stages of thinking about it, where do I really want to go next? And Ocado sent me an email and it probably very similar theme to when I joined Kohler. I just thought, let's just have an informal chat with the recruiter. The role sounded really interesting, sounded quite familiar to me that they've grown enormously as a business internationally in the last sort of four or five years. They had new systems, they had a Treasury management system system that was in its infancy, in the maturity cycle, was quite sort of at the beginning and it was a way of being part of that. All a UK team, which have appealed as well, because just the hours, of course, when you have a very global team, it definitely taught, particularly with the young family. I have young children and we're a very close family. So I just started talking to them. I thought, well, again, why not try? I've got nothing to lose, let's have a chat. I met the recruiting, the hiring manager and we had a good discussion. I then went through to the next round and met some more of the senior people at Ocado and then met the CFO and we had a good rapport. And it just sounded like an incredibly interesting business to be part of. Very energetic business and a business that's growing and they're really focused on innovation as well. So all of those things really appealed to me as. As a treasurer. So I then made the decision that it was the right time for me to.

To join. I said about the group, you know, that you've joined, it's still quite stage of, though they're established.

It's the international side that's early. Yeah, yeah, around that.

Well, talk us through that. Because they brought you in saying, we need you for this international beast. Just locked in because you've got that experience and everything else. What was it that they were saying? Oh, we need this experience from Tanya. What were they saying?

Yeah, definitely that. I think that appealed to them, the international experience and that transformation that you're building a very cohesive integrated finance team, whether it's in the UK or global automation. I think also I think that was something that appealed, that I understood because of the experience I'd had at Kohler, the sort of treasury landscape all around the world, whether it's Asia, America, other territories. We covered so many places around the world. In Kohler, the team and I, you kind of become familiar with the bank relationships and. And how those mechanisms work. Because it's going to be unique in each country. And I think the other thing was the people development. So that was a pretty big part for me at Kohler is creating that very inclusive peer group mentality that we had in Treasury. I think that, you know, obviously I can't speak for them, but why they hired me. But that's what I feel maybe most stood out. And it's very collaborative organization and that's how I like to operate. I'm very collaborative and I think it's easy to want to take credit for everything and you feel you need to deliver everything. You might feel I need to be the expert in the room and I need to always prove my value. It's really hard to be humble and think we are so much better getting everyone's inputs. And it's okay as a leader to not have all the ideas. And I'm always happy if people in my team shy. It's hard to do that. But I generally take that approach. Approach, yeah. I'm not going to be good on my own. I am good collaborating with peers and my team. That's what makes us good. It's hard though. You have to have no ego. Usually, I think when you deliver things and then you're doing it for the.

Company and your dog agrees. You see, that's the key.

That is my dog. Yeah, we got her in America. We were the sort of classic Covid story. I'd always wanted a dog and Covid gave us the opportunity, but I knew it wasn't right for us because we were always out, my husband and I, and we knew we were focus on raising the kids, happy children. But then Covid comes along and we were able to have a dog. So she came back with us from all the way from America. Very glad she came back. She likes being an English dog.

I can. I can tell. And when we talk ego, that's it. They chirp up and I'm here.

Right.

Thanks very much. You're in this new role and things like that. We're approaching the end of today's episode before we do wrap up. You're in this role. We're now in this period of recovery as a global economy. Really, you know, people are getting past Covid and stuff. What do you see as some of the things for you as a treasurer? Maybe you're being approached by rich conferences. We've got conferences. People are getting back face to face. But what do you see as the key challenges with for treasurers? You know, we have a lot of treasurers and I say oh, why'd you listen? I'd love to listen to the other career stories, but also the, the war stories, the things you've been through, if you like, you know, what are the key things that you're keeping an eye on? Not that keeping you awake, but you're thinking, oh, you need to be thinking about this.

Yeah. I mean, I think certainly the financing landscape, how much that's changed very quickly. There's the cost of financing. That's certainly something that I think every treasurer will be thinking about if you're trying to finance. I think I've read with interest, Mike, your article that you posted, maybe it was last week or even this week that companies really value treasurer. They've seen the value of treasury, because Treasury. Yeah, fine. And that was a huge topic for me as well throughout my treasury career. Is that value of treasury understood? Because it can be a mystery area. I think it's really simple because it's cash and it's just. I just think it's a very lovely way to view a business because it touches so many things and you can retrace the whole story from pictures. So I think I loved that article. In fact, I sent it to someone that I'd worked with previously because he and I always knew treasury, hey, this really matters to business. We really help businesses. We're not a mystery area. We're always thinking of solutions to support business growth and thinking outside the box and solution finders for things. We always find a way in Treasury. That's what my team and I always said at Kohler. I loved the article and it was great to see and I feel that Ocado Treasury, I believe that's been part of the culture. It's always been viewed highly, I think the career histories of some of the boards that they operated in that area for a long time. So it's great, it's great to see that and treasury, because it's such a collaborative culture. I feel people come to treasury naturally. They know that we're going to help figure something out as a group.

Well, someone actually referred it to me, they said about becoming full circle. And I actually don't agree with the coming full circle because as I said to them, said, look, when I started, and we're literally a month away from our 20th anniversary of doing the treasury recruitment company. But I've been doing it 25 years when I started treasurers and some of the associations who weren't, well, they are. They created this ivory tower and they sort of. We're specialists. Look at us in order to get these, you know, pay rise. They deserve the pay rise for doing the specialist skills. But actually what I've seen is, and certainly the past five to ten years, this transition to wanting to be more integrated with the business rather than being, oh, they're the treasure guys in the corner. And you exemplify that, that, you know, you're not in the corner, you're key part of the business and that's where you prove your value. You know, at the end of the day, not all of the stuff that I talked to the. This was the Wall Street Journal. I gave quite a long interview. So I'm going to cut it down. Lots of that's fine. But that was one of the things that probably didn't come across that I was saying that this has come full circle. I said, but it's not. I said, we've not got back to the point we were before in this ivory tower. 1015. It's the opposite. We've ended up at this place where Treasuries a service to the business. You've talked about it all the way through that it really is invaluable, improves it. And that's one of the things that we've done this through the podcast and through interviewing and talking to amazing people like yourself. Do you think?

Yeah. And yeah. Because when I started my treasury career almost 20 years ago, that's exactly it. It was a white tower. It was all very mysterious. Think maybe it's that. That people can then Treasuries coming out of all of that. And companies were worried, I think how are they going to get through the pandemic? And the treasurers then were coming in, or the treasury departments coming in to get emergency financing, shoring up cash, all of those things to make sure the board didn't need to worry about where. Because in the end you've got to have cash. Right. If you don't have that, whether it's through debt or just on your balance sheet, that's what you need to keep going. It's that simple. And glad to have seen that in my career. But still got a long way to go before retirement. Whenever that is, I can't even imagine.

No, don't worry.

But I'm just glad to have seen that. I'm very glad to have joined ocado. I didn't know how treasury was necessarily perceived, but I liked what I was seeing when I interviewed.

Yeah. So as we do each and every week, people should connect with you. You're great to have in the network. And it'd be great to catch up with you throughout this year and everything else, but we'll put your LinkedIn details in the show notes. What are the takeaways? Now, they might be for the different levels. You've come all the way through treasury, you've got the passion for treasury just as I have. But what would you say as takeaways from today's episode? People listen to your career journey. What are the things that you perhaps got that you want to go, right, this is what you should think about, or this is what you should do, or just any final closing thoughts you have before we let you get back on to do your day job.

Well, I think for me that relationship part is the biggest thing that I think about. When I think of my day to day, I'm always thinking about that collaboration, building my relationships. And that also takes time. I'm very patient. Sometimes people say, how are you patient? Because I think things take time. Some people are quick thinkers and they can just get what you're trying to get buy in for. Others take time or they have their own stuff that's going on and they don't have time. So I generally am happy to bide my time. Sometimes if I think something's really important, the business, I don't expect to have that instant. So I've been very patient and I'm good at getting all the ideas from lots of different teams to rebuild a good business case. And I think just keeping an open mind. When I really didn't expect to get into Treasury, I just took the chance. When treasury at Dyson asked me to, I thought, why not see what happens? And I wasn't afraid to change direction. I think when I think of my early career, mid-20s, I didn't pass my exams, I just didn't let that faze me. I think you're young, you're resilient and maybe that's good thing to end with that resilience that excellent, you know, just keep thinking positive. I'm generally a positive person. I guess I'm lucky that I am like that, just naturally. But I'm always a positive thinker and yeah, all the knock that you have, process it and then just keep moving forward positively because I think you can decide how you want to think of things either positively or negatively. And I. I just choose to generally think about.

You said that positive mindset.

Yeah, there's having a positive mindset.

I've been referred to a book called Grit actually, which I'm going to look up and get at some stage. I haven't ordered it yet, but I want to read some reviews. But as you say, it's that positive mindset. It's about resilience and just keep going forward. And I think that's underestimated sometimes at treasury, but Amazing. I knew it would be a great chat. It was. We'll put your LinkedIn details and show notes and people will be lucky to have you in their network. So look forward to catching up with you at a conference soon or face to face. Who knows? Amazing.

Great. Thank you very much, Mike. Thank you. Thanks for having me on the show.

Pleasure. Hello, it's Mike here again. I hope you enjoyed this week's show. If you did, then maybe you want to follow the show or subscribe, depending on where you listen, whether that's itunes, Spotify, or another great place to listen to the show from. It's totally free and means that you'll be the first to see each and every week when we release a new show. And maybe whilst you're there, you could even leave a quick, quick review. Reviews and ratings are among the most important metrics for a podcast to effectively rank. And as you can probably appreciate, the podcast is a lot of hard work to produce. Every week. It'd be amazing. Destate, say 20 seconds. Leave a quick review of my amazing guests and their great career stories. We'd really appreciate it. Thanks very much and I can't wait to see you soon. Sa.