Building Your Own Momentum in Treasury with Kevin Wang

Foreign.

Welcome to this week's Treasury Career Corner podcast where I interview treasury professionals.

About their treasury careers.

Each and every week I talk to them about how they've built their careers, where they are now, where they see both themselves and the treasury profession going to next. Let's get on with the show.

This week's show delighted be joined by Kevin Wong, the vice president and treasurer at Eastman Chemical Company headquartered in Kingsport, Tennessee. Founded in way back in 1920, they are a global specialty materials company producing a wide range of products found in items you're using every day. But Kevin will explain that a little bit later on in the show. You know, globally inclusive, diverse company. Eastman employs over 14,000 people around the world, serves customers in more than 100 countries. But that's the Eastman bit. We're going to come back to that later on in the show. We're going to go right back to Kevin's origin story if you like. Kevin, if you would take us back to the beginning how you discovered first finance and then treasury because obviously yours was slightly different again, different, different background before you really got into finance, but you were looking at different areas. Over to you, sir.

No, absolutely. And Mike, thank you for the introduction and thanks for having me on the show. My pathway into treasury was a little bit of an unorthodox and as you talk to more and more treasurers and treasury professionals, you find that many people also had varying paths into, into the business. For me myself I was actually a pre med student in college and going through that, you know, realized that pathway wasn't the way for me. But so as, as a pre med, right. I had cobbled together finance degree in about a year and a half and it was after that of which I was literally just looking for a job with the relatively lower GPA from the pre med day. So very lucky to be able to meet with actually con of brands were connected foods back then who listened to the story, right for a change versus some of the other companies that had dismissed me pretty, pretty early, you know, understood the story, saw that, you know, my finance major and my finance studies had gone well and offered me a financial development program rotation. And it was through that that I was able to really glean over you know, three years or so a good wide and broad experience within finance, having worked in journal audit, having worked in brand finance and customer finance. So really seeing different aspects of the company.

As you say, not a typical start if you like. So there'll be someone, you know, someone maybe some guys very early on in their careers Going, wow, that's me. You know, just identifying that with everything else, just on a personal level, that made you a bit more resilient, would you say? And things that early on in your career where you're actually doing this, not starting out, you know, sometimes you just. Right, yeah, do this move. This move, as you said, if you carried on with the pre med unit, step, step, step, that's it. It's all laid out. Whereas you were, like doing quite a massive pivot. I know we had this in our pre podcast call. What was that like for you? And then, you know, discovering finance, because now you're the treasurer of Eastman and stuff, so, you know, you've got something there. You know, that's what we're going to say. But what was that like for you, would you say?

First, it was a very humbling experience. Right. So for me, it really helped me get grounded and realize that, hey, life doesn't work perfectly exactly to the way that you plan it. So with that, you have to learn how to be adaptable, right? And you have to learn how to utilize the strengths that you do have, right. To try to come up with your own momentum, right. To move forward. And you also have to be open, right? You have to be open to trying out new things. You have to be open to learning, be open to working hard, because those are how the opportunities are going to come for you. In my case especially, you also have to be a little bit lucky. Right. I was extremely blessed to have a couple of mentors throughout my career. And the first one I had was Scott Meso. He was our treasurer over at ConAgra. He was the guy who actually listened to my story. Right. And being able to establish that relationship with them and, you know, have him offer me advice, really, throughout the first three years of my career helped inspire me to want to be someone like him one day. And someone who, in having that role model, really helped me serve as a, as a strong North Star for me throughout my career.

And with that, you know, were you. Had you discovered treasury at that stage or was that that off in the future? At that stage.

So Treasury I discovered actually through internal audit when I had a Treasury project with them. So. So seeing the Treasury Department through the audit lens was helpful, not just from a compliance perspective, but also as a way to get to know the folks within treasury who I really got to enjoy and get to know over time. But at the same time, having that mentorship was. Was great as well, because, you know, as we would talk about, you know, early career development and the like, right. Seeing his passion for treasury itself really inspired me as well to say, hey, let me, let me go and see what this is all about. Right? So after my rotational program, I requested to get into Treasury. The only position open at the time was a credit analyst position. Took the bull by the horns and just dove right in. And it was through that where things started coming together in place. Having gone into credit, you know, really being able to work through balance sheet analysis, cash flow analysis, P and L analysis and the like. To look at other companies for really, the first time was, was really eye opening for me. And that inspired me to go after the CFA program, which really just helped me compliment kind of the CFA background with the many, many different but, but connected areas within treasury and Kevin conagra Brands.

We've skipped past that actually. So let's, let's deep dive in that because you work there for a number of years and we have some amazing people in common and we'll come back to that. But conagra Brands, who are they? What are they? I know it. But you, and, but some of the listeners today would go, who. So can you explain what the company did and what that was then like in finance and then Treasury? So, you know, round that out if you would.

So back when I joined, it was a fairly diversified consumer packaged goods fat company which had private brands. It had food service, had commercial aspects, but also consumer packaged goods that were for, I guess, your American audience. They had brands such as Slim Jims, David Sunflower Seeds, Banquet Marie Callender's frozen meals. So really the gamut of a lot of different snacks and different foods from frozen refrigerated that were in, I think above 90% of people's pantries in the U.S. so over time, right, that evolved into being more of a pure play company of which treasury was hand in hand with a lot of the different strategic actions there, right. Whether it was selling our private brands business or doing a spin off of our Lamb Weston business, which was primarily on the commercial side of things for us to really create, go from ConAgra Foods to ConAgra Brands, which is then purely just on really the CPG aspect that consumers know and love. So, so that was, that was very eye opening, right. Throughout all of that, right. There was a lot of different changes, including some organizational structure changes which had allowed for organizations to be more agile and nimble, which included a flattening of the structure, which gave me actually a lot of opportunity, right. So as I was gaining ground within treasury and learning about different Things and learning how to be more efficient and effective in my analyst roles, I was able to tack additional responsibilities to my repertoire. And as the organizational changes happen. Right, partially me being lucky, I guess. And the opportunities were there for me to take on more and more. So I went from just having credit to learning more about capital markets to going into foreign exchange, heading up the, the staff for the pension and defined contribution plan. So really well rounding out my skillset through throughout that transformation. So no, it was certainly a case of which I, I felt like I grew with the company and its evolution.

And you were then working for one of our previous guests, Johan Neusted. What was he like as a boss to you in, in so far as in treasury terms because you got huge amount of exposure through the group and then that'll sort of bring us onto your next role. But before we even get there, because you were getting some great debt, capital markets, DCM experience, you're doing lots of different things. What was that like for you? Because you also then were doing DCM plus you were doing, you know, a rounded treasury role with your treasury management systems and everything else. Talk us through that if you like. And Johan.

So I had the fortunate circumstance of being able to work with Johan given the headquarters move from Omaha, Nebraska to Chicago, Illinois and this I think was back in 2015 or 2016. So it was with that my prior treasurer, Scott Mussel actually ended up retiring and he's doing fantastic down in Florida, enjoying you know, tennis on the clay courts over there. And we still keep in touch quite a bit. But it was through that where Johan came in and I had a chance to meet him. And I will tell you, those three years that I had a chance to work with Johan were probably the most challenging from a the amount of actions that we did. But it was also the most rewarding from an experience gain right through those three years. You know, we got through the sale of a large private label business within conagra, very sizable tender to reduce debt through that almost a year or so after that we, we immediately then did a spinoff of Lamb Weston which was one of the few tax free debt for debt exchanges that we were able to accomplish back then. So a very complex transaction there. And then I capped off my experience with conagra and Johan through the Pinnacle acquisition which involved jumbo financing on both debt and equity. So you probably say that in those three years I ran through an entire treasury cycle of being able to lead and work through a very high level, very complex transactions that really helped me develop into the person I am today, right. On top of that, Johan was always great at providing me additional opportunities to learn, you know, being involved in pension and 101ks, getting involved in reassessing the foreign exchange program for ConAgra at the time, like really giving me those opportunities and empowering me to lead many of those cross functional initiatives. That I always like to say is that Scott, Mel was the guy who inspired me to want to be a treasurer. Johan was the guy who basically I would say, made me feel like I could be a treasurer one day. So it was through those two guys that, that got me to where I am today.

Why do you say that? I know we, we had this as a great catchphrase, if you like, without it being cliched. You know, what was different about the two of them? Again, this is, I'm trying to bring to life, if you like someone listening, today is going, wow, that's what I'd like to give as my legacy to some of my team that I can actually teach someone to be a treasurer. You know, tell us, you know, how, how were they as bosses?

I think, yeah, so they were very different, but they were both very effective, right. And I think what I took from them were different partially because of where I was on a level perspective. Right. So if you think about Scott, right, his style, very passionate about treasury, very familial family type of environment within treasury, ultra healthy engagement from everybody, everybody's watching each other's back. It's a very, very close knit type of a family feel with him, of which that really appealed to me, right When I was younger in my career and you know, him being the nurturing guy that he was, it was great to be able to get advice from him all the time. You know, very fatherly, like a figure, exactly what I needed at the time. Effectively. Johan, right, that guy is a driver, right? In terms of getting results done. He will get it done and he will optimize things. He will get people really excited about projects, you know, really seeing the big picture. And with Johan, especially in terms of how he worked with me, he really empowered me. And through delegation, really saying that, hey, look, Kevin, I know you might be a little junior on this, but why don't you lead this anyway, right? See what happens, right? And then he, he would give me really good feedback, good constructive feedback when I did mess up and. But he gave me that space to fail, which I greatly appreciate because it allowed me to make mistakes in more low risk situations, but at the same time prepare me for the More high exposure type of situations that I ended up excelling in.

And that nicely segues into this next move and joining Eastman because you had, you'd filled out that DCM experience, you had a lot of different areas throughout your career. By that stage, you then joined Eastman. Talk us through the roles that you've done there because I know it's step, step, step. So talk us through, if you would.

If you don't mind. Let me talk about why I moved over to Eastman as well. Yeah, because so I never really thought I would ever leave ConAgra. But what appealed to me about Eastman was a couple of things. One, it had a much more of a global presence in that added complexity, added situations for me to really be able to expand my own knowledge base as I aspire to be not just a Fortune 500 treasurer, but also one that can handle global situation. So with conagra was more of a North American based company. So the appeal of the complexity was certainly there also. Just from a people perspective. Right. Fantastic people over at ConAgra at Eastman, you know, met a couple of folks here that I thought I could really work with and do some very special things here at Eastman. Given the caliber of the folks here, how open they were for me to come in and, and use those learnings I had at ConAgra to really help drive change within Eastman. And then the last piece that really excited me about coming here was the innovation you think about, you know, CPG and innovation. It's usually more, you know, innovation surrounding packaging or innovation surrounding how foods are microwaved or put in the oven or those types of technologies. In researching Eastman, my favorite story was reading the K as I was learning about the and they were talking about this performance films that hey, if you put it on a car and it gets scratchy, it'll heal itself. I mean, to me that was stuff from like, you know, science fiction compared to the innovation I was used to seeing in the CPG business. So that, that really appealed to me. And even now with our entire sustainability growth vector that we're going through and circular growth vector, you know, there's even more momentum behind that innovation which is continuing to keep me very excited about the company. So but in terms of the roles, right. That we had talked about, I came in as a director of Capital Markets and financial Risk, so headed up capital markets and the hedging programs effectively for foreign exchange and commodities. Over time I was able to be successful here at Eastman and going through early on initiatives, ended up adding both pensions and fine contributions to My portfolio, which then effectively matched up to what I used to do back at conagra, but also added, erm, to my portfolio as well here. So that got me to the Assistant Treasurer position just a year and a half, two years ago, and with some recent changes as well, you know, had the opportunity to become the Vice President Treasurer here as of two months ago.

Was it all deliberate, did we there thinking, right, I'm getting, I'm going to push myself each of these steps. And was treasurer on the radar for yourself or was it a natural progression? So without wanting to tread on anyone's toes, what was the sort of situation? Because I know that you were a driven guy, very successful, but you thought, right, this is a place I can go to. What's it been like?

Yeah. So, I mean, it was through the interview process of which Willie McLean, our CFO, who was actually the treasurer back at the time at Eastman, laid out really a path of how he envisioned me growing within the company. Right. It was through that of which, hey, that I knew from an experience perspective, right, that hey, there is a path, right, for me to become treasurer here as well. Now, exactly when that, that would happen, right. Obviously you're not going to know because circumstances are going to happen and things occur, right, that can either accelerate or decelerate that path. But it was a good opportunity for me to really understand, you know, long term what Eastman wanted to do as a finance organization. But also having confidence in myself knowing that I could bring the value right into, into the company. The accolades, you know, the accomplishments that you've done before, certainly helps you get into the door of a company, whether it's certifications or high profile transactions or initiatives of that like. But to go up the stairs, really, it's applying value, right, to what you're doing at your new and helping the company see what you can be doing in a future role as well.

You talk there about the vision for finance there. Is it ever increasing efficiency and growth or again, without going into confidential stuff, this can be publicly stated. What's the aim and how does treasury.

Slot into that from a finance perspective? Overall, what I found here is, is that we have a really great balance of people who have been with the company for many years, 20, 30, you know, sometimes even 35, 40 years to complement that. Right. We've also have folks brought in from other industries. Right. Other states. Right. Other other areas that bring a more diverse perspective right. Into various initiatives that we can do. So it's through that that you have a leadership structure that consists of Folks who have been here for a very long time, as well as folks who come from other industries who are really able to work together very well to bring in not just the industry knowledge that the veterans here have, but also some external insight from folks who were able to glean great experiences from other companies. It was through that, that really allowed us to have a really solid structure within finance that helped us get through situations like Covid a couple years ago. But in terms of treasury itself, as that's worked throughout the years, I would say this isn't just something that we're looking at, Eastman, but I think it's a, it's a general thing that, that most treasurers are working with and to try to do is be less of that ivory tower concept, right. Of which, hey, you know, they're really the gatekeepers of, of the cash for big projects or big acquisitions into how to be more of a strategic partner to the business through our expertise. Because we, we have a very unique position within the entire organization. Not only are we able to help be the liaison right, between the back office functions and the front office functions for various types of products that we can think through, but also there's that level of external insight through the banks, through the investment consultants, through the actuaries, a lot of really, really smart external sources that we can bring in and help the company through various issues, such as a Covid or other types of liquidity issues. But a lot of it, really, the challenge has been for, I think for many Treasuries is folks outside of treasury don't seem to know as much about what treasury does. There's a lot of thought. I mean, when I, when I typically ask a person outside of treasury what's on your mind, right. When I say the word treasury, they usually reply back with like, like Scrooge McDuck in a gold vault somewhere, just throwing coins in the air, right? So that's what we're doing, right? But that's not really the case. And what I've really tried to do here, try to demystify treasury because at the end of the day, the treasury into a certain element, finance. As long as you know algebra, you're fine, right? We have all of these weird acronyms that we like to throw out there. But I mean, if you know algebra and it can work your way around the Excel spreadsheet, you'll be able to learn it, no problem. But with treasury itself, what I've tried to do was really demystify it from being, hey, this gold vault mentality and perception that we have into something that kind of goes back into my pre med roots a little bit. So for me, right, treasury is all about cash flows, right? The best way for me to explain that to folks is thinking about cash flows as a circulatory system, right? Which you have a company and if the circulatory system doesn't work and the blood doesn't get pumped around, it's the same as having no cash flows. But what happens to a company if it doesn't have cash flows much like a body of hot blood, it just doesn't exist, right? It doesn't work. So something I've been doing recently to try to demystify this has been really comparing pieces of treasury to parts of the circulatory system. You're thinking about cashops, for example, operation at the heart of the company. They're pumping the blood to everywhere it needs to go. You have credit organization, the immune system, right, of the company who are looking at our customers and suppliers and making sure that the stability of those cash flows are going to be there and that those cash flows are protected. Making sure that the bad apples are not there. Thinking through capital markets, it's like blood transfusions, right? Going in and out, right? For whether it's doing share repurchases or big projects or if the body needs blood, that's what the capital markets are for. Going out there and issuing. There's a lot of linkages there there that if you just break it down into kitchen English at times, it really helps you relate a lot more, not just to someone who's outside of finance, but also helps connect treasury to the strategy of the company.

So, Kevin, you've actually been with the group for four and a half years and now you're the new treasurer. Been in the role three months. That's obviously an interesting one for you because, you know, a lot of the people around the organization and things. So for you as the new treasurer, Reisman, what's that like? You know, how are you going to set out the, the Kevin Treasurer stall, as it were? Because I know you're a career treasurer.

But talk us through with the change, right, with, with me coming in as a treasurer, you know, having been elevated to it rather than, you know, having been rotated in. The good news is, you know, the people know who I am. They've seen my style of leadership during my time as assistant treasurer, as a director of capital markets before that, you know, they know what my passion is for Treasury. They, they see it every day. And when they have A chance to work with me back in my prior roles, right. That it's something that I've always rein with that. Right. I think there's a, there is a sense of good engagement, right with, with the group. Given that they know that I have history, they know that I know what their capabilities are. Right now it's really just having us look forward, right, as, as we continue to develop and evolve the treasury organization. And you know what I've told really from a culture perspective, for us, the passion is still there. That's never going to change. The passion. Treasury is absolutely there. What I did want to do, and this is, I think has resonated well, is to empower folks to be able to hype less and think more, right. As they, as they look to develop their own careers. We're looking at ways for folks to be more efficient, you know, with various reporting and analytics and the like that I know all other treasures are also working through. But we're spinning it in a way and turning it around in that, hey, if you're able to reduce 10% of the menial work that you do, right. What can you do with that 10%, that extra 10% that you now have, right. Is it mentoring someone relatively new, right. Is it, is it learning more and being more of an expert in your area? Is it being a little more cross functional and learning about other areas of treasury or other areas of the company, maybe being a backup or doing some cross training there because you never know what opportunities may arise, right. And having folks have an intent on their own development and having that clearly communicated and having that also well planned out allows folks to get lucky like I did right. Early on in my career when, when positions opened up and I was able to rapidly progress my own career. So that's resonated very well with the group and it's something that we'll be continuing to hone in over time.

And with that and sort of looking at the future, what are the things that you're thinking? You know, we, we both go to conferences and things and you're looking at the future of treasury, you've taken over treasury there as a group. What are the key things? So you touched a little bit there on sort of IT technology, that being a big thing. I know the development of that. But other things about developing people or, you know, what are the other issues? You, you know, you're thinking, right guys, we need to keep an eye on this. We've been through Covid. It's quite nice actually to have, you know, sometimes with past episodes, we, you know, when we catch up with people, it's like, right, talk us through the past three years. You're like, wow, okay. Whereas with yourself, you sort of, you've been through that, you know, and everything else. But what are you looking at for the future? You know, what are the key things you're thinking that other people need to be thinking about as well?

Yeah, the key things, especially with this AI stuff that's coming, right? I mean, I, I was playing with Chat GPT the other day and it's just amazing what they can do. Less typing, more thinking mentality is going to not just be a recommendation, it's probably going to be a requirement. If you think a couple years down the line for finance in general, at the end of the day, right, an organization is only as good as its people. But from a organization perspective, here at Eastman's Treasury Group, right, it's really being proactive in working with the people to say, hey, what can we do now? Right, what can we do now to be able to add value in ways that are not just putting out reports, but add values in more of a consultative or strategic capacity. Right. Instead of spending two or three hours putting a report together, I'd rather people spend two or three hours work with their business partners on a credit analysis or something like that. Right. Going through a situation there that, that's the type of stuff that is going to absolutely drive a lot of change within not just Treasuries, but finance going forward.

Well, look, as we approach the end of today's show, we're going to put your LinkedIn details in the show notes so that people can connect to you. I know there'll be a host of people takeaways for today's show. I mean, maybe for the more junior guys, because you've come up that route and you've been a Treasury professional for many years. And some of the thoughts for those guys, if they're listening today and you're a Treasury manager, analyst and thinking, wow, this is what I should be doing, thinking about study or thinking about different things. And then if you're maybe a bit more mature in your treasury career, the takeaways of today's episode. So back to you, sir.

Especially for the early career people out there in treasury, right. And even for people who are outside of treasury, right. Who don't know anything about treasury, that's perfectly fine. I have hired people who were music business majors, math majors, economics. I mean, there obviously isn't a Treasury degree out there. Right. But as I Said, as long as you know your way around the spreadsheet and, you know, algebra, you're going to be absolutely fine. So I would encourage for anybody to give Treasury a shot just to see what it is, because it's such a unique aspect of a company that truly drives a lot of strategic value, especially during times of stress, such as Covid for the takeaways. Right? In terms of, and this is what I tell the early analysts, all the mentees that I work with is, at the end of the day, as long as you bring in a growth mindset and are able to have a little bit of grit, to be able to work hard to try to find those opportunities come up, you'll do absolutely fine. Right? And that'll get you into many, many doors and that'll get you in the right mindset to be viewed very positively amongst many leaders. Now, to go up the stairs, though, that mindset will certainly be a good foundation. But to really be able to progress on your career, there's a couple of things that I always stress. One is, especially within treasury, execution is key, right? So making sure that execution is absolutely flawless and perfect, you know, it certainly builds to credibility for you and reputation for you. As being someone who's very dependent upon. For many different situations, proactivity is massive. You know, not just waiting to see something happen before reacting to it, but also trying to think ahead, trying to find out what the predictable surprises are, to really be able to show that initiative. The very key trait that I see very successful people within treasury do, and lastly, but certainly not least, probably most important, is the customer service aspect. Right? Acting with integrity, working very closely with the clients, whether that's internal or external, to really be able to deliver what their needs are. Right? And sometimes they don't know what their needs are, and sometimes that's how we become more of a strategic partner, is to work with them to figure out what those needs actually are and then using our unique expertise to help develop them. Other than that. Right. Technical skills, I can't say enough about the ctp. You know, lots of great folks. I don't have one myself, but I certainly appreciate the folks who did take the time to go through that, to really learn the inner outings of treasury and the operations side of things. The cfa, I think, is a great target to also look to, try to attain. Typically, it's. It is more associated with, you know, pensions and investment management and the like. But there's a lot of great parallels within treasury that if someone is going to be committed to Go after the cfa at least opens your Taurus into things outside of treasury as well, versus a ctp, which is very, very treasury centric. So that gives you flexibility, but at the. At the end of the day, it's all about adaptability. It's all about the flexibility. It's all about having a little bit of courage to. To step up and say, hey, if there is opportunities available, I want to be a part of that. And stepping up and always offering yourself up to learning more, having that growth mindset, always offering yourself and showing the grit that you have to produce results, those will all get you great momentum.

And what I would say, just add that, you know, we're pro study just like you are, Kevin, and that's one of the things that someone asked me the other day. So which would you recommend? I went all of them. Oh, okay. I said, we're agnostic about it. I think as long as you're moving forward, it's otherwise, you know, I've done this on a couple of AAP sessions, is you're facing the wrong way on that travelator at the airport. Because if you're just standing still and not trying to develop yourself, it will slowly take you back. You know, you're facing where it's like, slowly, you're like, oh, hang on, what's going on here? Yeah, because everybody else is progressing and it's a competitive market out there, but, you know, you're developing yourself and you're keeping up with your skills and you've got to work at it. It's not enough just to do your job and then expect and then go to your boss after three, six, 12 months ago, right, can I have a promotion? What have you achieved? Have you kept on developing yourself? It's hard work and that's what it is. And Joel Campbell, one of the things he said, it's work. That's the definition of it. It's work. You have to work hard, but I think there's a way you can do it and also enjoy it. So. Great words, sir. Any final bits? I always prefer you to have the final say.

So I wanted to add one thing, because it's also the cross functionality. Right. Of it. It's being able to work with folks from different departments. I mean, one of the first actions I had the opportunity to do here at Eastman as treasurer was issue our first Green Bond. That really was a eye opener. Right. In terms of the amount of cross collaboration that has to be done between us and sustainability, finance, legal, you know, all sorts of folks. Right. The Accounting, everyone that we had to work with just to get a couple pages in, right, on a green financing framework. It's absolutely amazing the amount of work that has to be done there. It's also a great opportunity, right, to really be able to connect treasury to the business strategy, because this was our way to marry up our financing tactics with the business strategy. And I'll tell you, when we were doing the actual deal, you have the live order book up and everything in the war room. And we invited folks from sustainability, Legal, you know, accounting that can actually come in and kind of say, see what the action was all about. It gave them more of appreciation as well, right, for capital markets, right, for, for the excitement that is treasury. Because, look, it's a department that we don't just read the news, we actually make the news a lot of the time. Right. And it's, it's great to be able to be inclusive, a lot of different departments that can really help share that space that treasury has. And I think as a treasurer here and for, for many Treasuries around, if we can all just try to be more inclusive to the other groups within our organizations, have them, you know, take a peek at what, at the cool things that we're doing, have them share that excitement, then that certainly builds a lot of goodwill and, and relationships as well.

We just read the news, we make the news. On that bombshell from Kevin, we'll put your LinkedIn details in the show. Notes everyone. I know he, you'd be lucky to have him in your network. So thanks very much. You've been an absolute star.

Thanks, Kevin. All right, thanks, Mike.

Hello, it's Mike here again. I hope you enjoyed this week's show. If you did, then maybe you want to follow the show or subscribe, depending on where you listen, whether that's itunes, Spotify or another great place to listen to the show from. It's totally free and means that you'll be the first to see each and every week when we release a new show. And maybe whilst you're there, you could even leave a quick review. Reviews and ratings are among the most important metrics for a podcast to effectively rank. And as you can, can probably appreciate, the podcast is a lot of hard work to produce every week. It'd be amazing. Just take, say, 20 seconds, leave a quick review of my amazing guests and their great career stories. We'd really appreciate it. Thanks very much and I can't wait to see you soon.