Challenging the Status Quo and Using Tech Wisely with Abraham Geldenhuys

Welcome to this week's Treasury Career Corner podcast where I interview treasury professionals about their treasury careers. Each and every week I talk to them about how they've built their careers, where they are now, where they see both themselves and the treasury profession going to next. Let's get on with the show. In this week's show I'm joined by A. Abraham Geldenhuis, the vice president and group treasurer at Kongsberg Automotive. Now, Kongsberg Automotive, they provide world class products to the global vehicle industry. And Abraham is actually based over or AC as I know him, as we're mates and stuff like that. He's actually based over in the headquarters in Zurich and he actually joined the group Midsummer Relocation, which we'll get on to a bit later on in the episode. But he's got this amazing background right the way through from South Africa and everything else. But again, as we said before the show, we're going to whiz through his career because he's got some real, well, amazing stuff to tell us and he's won some awards, some Adam Smith awards, which is great through treasury today and does some really amazing stuff around cash. And again, the only thing we're going to have to do is control ourselves because this could be a two hour episode rather than a 40 minute one as people used to, you know, have on a commute and stuff. Abraham, or A.C. as I'm usually calling it, mate, tell us about your career today and how you first discover finance and then treasury, really. So back to you, sir, as always.

Yeah, Mike, thank you very much and thanks for having me this afternoon for the session. Yeah, I mean it really started as, you know, let's say, let's take it a little bit further back as to high school, you know, I thought to myself, you know, what is I want to go and do. A friend of mine actually said to me, introduce me to the chartered accountancy route. And then it was a done deal for me because right there and then I realized, you know, having that I'll be able to do anything in the finance world, at least on a global level. I spent two quick years outside of high school in New York, actually carrying on a private golf course before I started studying. And then I started the route of, you know, going into the finance studies on route to become a chartered accountant which then includes the, you know, your typical training route through a big four audit firm which I spent in South Africa. And then I got the opportunity together with my family to move to Switzerland. But still in auditing, once I spent enough time in Auditing, you know, I really decided, you know, I would love to sit on the other side of the table and as many treasurers, you know, I never decided to go into Treasury. You know, I got, you know, almost stumbled upon it and I had the opportunity to join the consulting practice PwC Switzerland in the corporate treasury site.

And when you, sorry, and you say you had, you know, you not had exposure to it, how did they sell it to you internally? Did they say, oh, here's treasury and things they say, oh, actually that sounds interesting. Or what hooked you in, if you like, at that stage.

I always had an interest in financial instruments, you know, specifically financing instruments. And that was always interesting to encounter. You know, I think it's also due to the complexity that almost the over overshot complexity sometimes. You know, I met somebody actually at an informal break in the PwC office in Switzerland. They're starting to talk about treasury and right there and then I thought to myself, you know, this could very well be my way out of audit. Exactly. And I think, you know, once I started to discover more and more about that and I was then encouraged to, you know, to look into the ACT program of which I've done some of it, I think it, for me it was, it was clear this is something that has the reach and I still see that every day today has the reach into almost like, you know, almost all sections of finance. So yeah, I mean that then I actually, you know, joined that team and that comprised out of, you know, the typical treasury consulting practice. But I also then had to still, you know, do treasury specialized treasury audits. So, you know, centralized treasury departments, which was kind of the deal with, with the audit department back then.

You'd had enough of consulting and it's a great way to get a really good range of expertise. Did you not want to continue within consulting? And you know, I know that sometimes it drifts you, you know, a lot of consultants, they sort of actually drift away. Recruitment in a way. Sometimes they. You do recruitment, group recruitment and then they now manage in consulting a lot of the time. And I've had some really great consultants on the podcast. You do the job, you then do more treasure treasury advice. And there's. Oh, hang on now, start selling. Is that the way it was going to go or why did you then think, actually I want to be working within a core Treasury?

Yeah, well that's typically the way it goes. I mean the higher you go up the ranks, you need to. Need to start generating revenue. Right. I mean, I mean there's no, just no Doubt about it, you know, somebody has to pay the bills. So then looking at the consulting world, I mean I think the life of a Treasury consultant today can be a very, very exciting one. I think it just depends on what you encounter. But you know, I think it also depends as to, you know, what you're exposed to, what is running in the market, who wants to look into, let's say treasury management system implementations, who wants to revamp their cash flow forecasting cycle, et cetera, et cetera. So it's really, I would say a bit limited as to what is available but then you get to work on a big part of the process but not the end to end part of the process because at one stage you basically hand it over and then it's the corporate that has to run with it. So I think very exciting about the consulting practice and I think I wouldn't take anything away from that is you get to see quite a lot of different companies, different setups. That was very much the same in the audit on the audit side. But I was really curious to, like I said to sit on the other side of the table and be part of a decision maker. But obviously that was not my day one in the corporate treasury world. I had to almost take a bit of a lateral step again because then you're stepping out of the consulting world and now suddenly you want to step into the corporate world. And it's not necessarily that you're just going to start been getting promoted with regards to that.

You made that step and you joined Aleris. What did they do? And that was your first treasury, corporate treasury role as it were actually. And then a couple of other moves talk us through those.

I think Aleris and as well as Constelling which I joined subsequently to Aleris is both in the metal mining business, rolled aluminum, so provided products to the aircraft industry, also to the automotive industry and also extrusions. So two very similar and I wouldn't call they were almost a bit of competitors but it was an easy transition. But I think what I was very, I would say fortunate there was to get introduced to the corporate world but I would say more a cash management setup on the Aleris side. And when I got the opportunity to move to Constellium that was really a centralized fully fledged treasury with I think with all the bells and whistles that you would find in corporate Treasury. So I think that was a good experience and it was a good introduction as to how I would call it how a corporate treasury should look like.

You can stellium and then let's get into Kongsberg. So how did the role come about? And tell us about the sort of what the group does then? You know, and it's great, it's nice and early in the episode because we've got lots of, lots of time to really focus in on that. So back to you.

No, I mean, I think. Absolutely. I think the opportunity then came along. The Kongsberg and I joined Kongsberg in October 17, Mike. And you know, I think, you know, just kind of almost interrupt myself a little bit there. One thing that I always felt that gave me a little bit of an advantage, you know, was having the accountant accountancy background as well, to being able to kind of really get the front and the back end of, let's say, the transactions, if you may call it that. Typically when I moved into the corporate treasury world and I quickly realized that very often, more often than not, the accountants and the treasurers have a little bit of, I would say, intense discussions around certain topics, which is now not something that's uncommon, but that basically was laying a lot of groundwork. And then when I got the opportunity to join Kongsberg, it was right amidst their transition or let's say their relocation from Norway. So Kongsberg Automotive is an automotive part supplier. And we can talk a lot about Kongsberg. I mean, it's a very interesting setup. And we operate the business basically in three segments, which is driveline, powertrain, chassis, we have interior products and then in what we call specialty products segment, the company is very interesting. I think if you look at the revenue base, it's about 1 billion euros. But what makes it really interesting from a Treasury perspective, Mike, is it's a real multinational, I would say monster from a Treasury perspective because we are really east to west in a lot of jurisdictions and typically like in the multinational setup, dealing with 13 plus currencies of which euro and dollar is the main ones or are the main ones, that makes it really interesting. And then what to highlight as well, just before we go into the details of what came about with this exciting role and opportunity for that matter, is that all three of these corporate treasuries that I worked for was net debt and still is net debt and single B rated, single B rated companies. Now that always brings a very interesting and not an interesting, but it brings a special focus right onto the Treasury Department with regards to financing, refinancing, cash management and risk management with regards to FX and interest rates, et cetera, et cetera. So the opportunity, when the opportunity came along for Kongsberg, this is Roughly a green, I would say Greenfield treasury opportunity. Although there was an existing treasury department. But I think through the changes and Kongsberg made one big, big acquisition. Things just, I would say not even organically, but it just exploded for the company that size. And then suddenly with the relocation to Switzerland and refinement that had to take place and a new vision, new management, I would say a lot of new departments had to be established and to support the strategic growth of the company.

And when you say that you sort of talked about that being that net debt position. It sounds like, and again we've spoken about this before, that you know, that cash becoming king, it's not private equity, you're a standalone company and everything else and that's not the case. But again, I said to you before that Julie Fabris, who we had on a previous episode, she's worked for lots of private equity companies and you were just again we've commented about the real way you drill down with cash and that being a passion area for you. Why is that the key thing? Again, you gave a really good description of why it's right the heart of every business.

Yeah, I mean I think there's definitely a different flavor Mike, when you are working for private equity versus a public company. I mean Johannesburg is a publicly listed company in the Oslo Stock Exchange. So was constelling being on the New York Stock Exchange. So I mean there's a different flavor when it's private equity versus public company. However, for the focus what I refer to when I mean I would say net debt and single B suddenly refinance risk in your ability. I said to you earlier, you don't just get hand me downs from financial institutions when you're single B rated. So refinancing, setting up your finance and your capital structure is a bit of a different discussion than somebody who's AAA or I would say then that just literally drills down to the way you also behave in your cash flow forecasting and also you know, let's say you know, manage your cash because again, you know, every, every piece of cash you know you can save, you save and if you can deleverage, you will do that. But you know, cash management does then become, I would say a lot of the center of the attention. However, you cannot put the refinancing and the financing part aside just due to the fact that you know your net debt. Right. So it's going to come up that you have to refinance and then the question is, you know, how much experience you have going into these in These areas. Right. So before joining Kongsberg, I have not. I've never been as actively involved in for instance a high yield bond transaction. It's always a question for certain Treasuries, you know, how hasn't done this, what is it to it, right. And then you suddenly realize what it's all about. But this is at the forefront. So I joined Kongsberg and before I joined Kongsberg you have a lot of these articles that talk about the first hundred days of a treasurer. What are you going to achieve in your first 100 days of a treasurer and then stepping into organization who doesn't really know. Treas put a little bit of a different flavor on it on top of that as well. But at the forefront of that with regards to then sitting in front of the CFO laying out a strategic roadmap to say listen, I think this is what we have, this is where we should go and that's how we're going to get there. And then with the refinancing in the forefront that made this opportunity in this job so much more exciting. So we just set out to literally turn every stone, if you could call it that Mike, with regards to anything Treasury. So from refinancing to trade finance instruments to cash management to treasury system implementations to a little bit of fintech on the transfer pricing. That's one of the Adam Smith awards that we got for the intercompany pricing and rating tool. I would say touching the way cash is applied, cash is released. I think we can go on and on and on and on. Once you're sitting in a position where there's really low hanging fruit and then lots of opportunity, I think that's what ultimately excited me. And that together with the increased level of responsibility as you know my passion to make a positive change.

You've restructured it, brought it up together but at the same time you won this again, two Adam Smith awards. One was the fintech solution, but then you actually took it on that next level and won the harnessing the power of technology. Can you just talk us through that before, during and after phase of not necessarily just the award and I know that we were talking about this. Oh but you know, don't want to go on about it too much and but I'm very happy to hear about it because I think it's really powerful to people and we had a pre podcast call a couple of weeks ago and you explained to me how you went down to that next level, next level and just kept going like deep dived in the in the mining there of cash. Can you just describe that? The before. So what was the situation before, how you then took it and then where you are now? So talk us through that.

A little bit of background to that, Mike. I mean, I think that's a great question. I think we can elaborate a bit on that. Is that when I started, you know, setting out my plan and my strategic roadmap and, you know, getting all worked up and excited, I still remember that first week I joined the company, I went to Norway, came back to Switzerland, sit in front of the cfo and I was almost a bit shaking. I said, listen, we need to do this, this, this, this, this. And he said to me, listen, just calm down, make sure you have everything transferred, all that. And I was already thinking about, you know, changes and implementations, et cetera, et cetera. I was then, you know, I would say, approaching a couple of peers. And I had a couple of, you know, soundboarding sessions and we brought in a consultancy, you know, and I started speaking to the consultant and he said, and he looked me in the eye and said, listen, if you pull all of this off, you know, we should absolutely nominate you guys for the Adam Smith Awards. And at that time, Mike, I said to him, what is the Adam Smith Awards? Probably I shouldn't say that out loud, but I didn't know what the Adam Smith Awards were. I think it's probably just because I haven't really looked into these things. I mean, it's not really why I do Treasury. So he said to me, listen, you know, you need to look into this. And it's a really nice platform and it's a prestige award that recognize movements in the treasury world. So I said to him, okay, great, but let's first get it done and then we start getting going for the nomination. So it really started with that. And the first one that we targeted was this implementation of this tool. And I think we probably shouldn't go into the details of this tool right now. Then it basically evolved and elaborated into the big transformation which we aim to do. Mike. Right. So we wanted to really, like I said before, turn every stone. And then we started talking about completely reorganizing the banking structure, making sure that we partner that with the correct technology, but then make sure our processes are there to support that. So I always say that process should lead and technology can enable that. But once we started to work on this, it just grew bigger and bigger and bigger and bigger. And obviously like any of these programs, and I would say transformations goes with business cases and presenting it, it's not just somebody saying listen, yeah, go for it. I mean it's money. And so it grew. And I have to absolutely tell you, I mean you talk about the team and involvement. I mean it was a monumentous effort. But you know, it was not just the treasury team. We had incredible cross departmental collaboration from legal to accounting to a guy sitting and I would say IS&T department which is an SAP for instance generalist. And this guy just simply stepped it up and started looking into payment types as detailed as your so called DME trees in SAP grass the project. So that just went from phase to phase to phase and it grew big. But we also presented it, you know, as a full end to end transformation. And one of the key things is we wanted to also take on commercial payments in the treasury team. And that's something that you all, you know, often you get into corporate treasuries, they talk about treasury payments and commercial payments. But we wanted to have it all in one, under one umbrella and a relatively small team. But we wanted to almost have that, you know, we wanted to have that red button to say it goes out or it doesn't go out. So payment wise.

Yeah.

And then coupled with proper planning. But we could probably speak about that a bit later. But then what I want to refer to, you know, is this, a transformation like this takes a lot of effort, comes, you know, it's together with a lot of stress, a lot of hard work. And I think most of the time people underestimate that. You know, a lot of treasury departments underestimate that. You know, people think they can do that amongst their own team and you know, then, you know, I think I would say if you think you can do that with your current team, you know, and take on a massive project like that, you know, what were they doing before? And then, you know, it just comes to mind that you have to have the right support in order to bring something like this life. So monumentous, big effort, cross departmental collaboration and also PMO involvement. Right. I mean you need to have the stakeholders need to take accountability and move this forward and me as being the owner of the project, you know, you have to ultimately drive it, but you have to show your people the excitement. So I spent quite a bit of time, Mike, traveling around sitting in front of people. But I also try to excite them and with the, with a focus on try because when you start talking about something like an in house bank, which in that in a corporate treasury world is not something new. I mean it existed since forever. If you could say that in other departments, they don't know what. What it is, what you mean. So you need. I needed to spend quite a bit of time, you know, getting people excited of what this transformation will mean, because the first question that they normally ask is, you know, is it going to mean more work for me? Right. So there's, there's multiple components of that. But, you know, to your question, the Adam Smith Awards. Yes. So we, we nominated and we entered that. That was also through our banking partners, the consultancy and also the treasury management system provider, sort of a team effort, entered and we were very privileged to win the Harnessing the Power of Technology section. And I think we have a couple of more in our sleeves. But maybe we should also slow it down a bit.

Yeah, well, take a breath because you're going to pass out.

Normalize it.

But it's great because you've got this passion for treasury, which I absolutely adore and I think it's great. But let's go back a stage. So you just talked about there, about resource and stuff like that. And I had. In the midst of lockdown, I've talked about this on a little bit or touched on a little bit in panels. There's one of my treasurers and they might even be listening today. So, you know, we'll see if they identify themselves or self identify. They've implemented a new treasury system throughout lockdown, you know, a really testing, trying year. They were like, oh, we've done really well. They've actually said, we've done great and everything else and they've not done so well. They think that they've got to themselves, you know, into this state where they. Oh, yeah, we've done really. Two of their team have registered with me now. I can't obviously disclose that to them or. And everything else. And I'm just sort of saying, oh, yeah, they've done really well. They're not. The team have had to cope with the challenges, you know, the pandemic thrown at them, the coping with homeschool and. And on top of that, their day jobs and as if there weren't enough bringing this new system and they're like, oh, you know, they're just absolutely broken. You, you looked at that and you did it differently as well because, you know, that workload upon workload. Talk us through how you harness that people wise and some of that. Because I thought that was a really interesting point as well from before.

You know, we were lucky to bring this live before we hit this pandemic. However, you know, one of the things that I want to refer back to, and that's what we spoke about is when you staff your team and when you build your team and it is really difficult in a scenario where you first for us had to sell treasury and bring an understanding of treasury into the organization and then if you start asking for resources, they're like, no, no, no, you know, you guys, enough, I mean you have one person that's enough. So but then, you know, you need to get to a point where you need to say, okay guys, but it's going to mean this. We're going to take on commercial payments, we're going to do all this and this we need, we need a, I would say at least small to medium sized strategy team. Now when you staff your team with the, with the, you know, I would say, you know, vision to do a transformation of the scale, the size and at the speed that we were trying to do it, you need to take that into consideration. You absolutely have to think now you can only hire like, you know, what is available in the market. But I think one of the things that you absolutely have to focus on is that you will be able to be there enough for the people that works in that team. Now looking back, you know, that's probably something that I feel I could have done way better because you know, sometimes that also comes at a cost. You know, it comes at a cost because you know, I have the, the other side of things. I say Mike, and I'll come back to the, to the crux here but you know, people start transformation projects and implementation of management systems and new banking structures and it takes certain corporates three to four to five years. Now yes, there's a lot of variables but if you start spending that amount of time on transforming, depending on the size of a company, then you start losing steam because you know, inevitably you're going to start, you know, having rotation in your staff levels, etc, etc. However, the point that I want to make is when you staff up to do something like that, you know, it doesn't always make sense to just get the cheapest resource out there, right? You know, you need to make sure that you have somebody senior and independent enough to be able to run the race with you. Because in those months, and I think a lot of people can identify that in those months, you know, running up to the go, live date, you know, the stress builds and you need to have all the stakeholders on track, whether it be legal, whether it be a Treasury management system provider, whether it be your in house, your internal accounting or treasury or say, group finance department, you know, you constantly have to do send checks. And yes, you hit roadblocks. And inherently there are conflict that occurs. So, you know, one of the things that I, you know, at that specific point, and a point that I want to make, is you need to be able to, number one, spend enough time with those new hires. And we were also in that. In the place right there where we. We had to take on, you know, completely new hires shortly before we went live and that stuff, because then suddenly somebody comes in and they basically running your race. You need to convince them. You need to kind of. And that's something that I think I could have done or we could have done better. It comes at a cost when you want to move at that pace. And I think a lot of treasurers and a lot of departments can sort of identify with that. But, you know, it's a tough one. It's a tough one, Mike, because, you know, go live. And I would say a fully encompassed, I would say transformation that we did is a stressful scenario, you know, and it comes with weekends, it comes with extra work. But, I mean, that's just what. That's just what it costs.

And with the, you know, and with that, as you were planning this out, and again, there'll be other people, this is an advice show as much as anything you, you know, standing back from it and, you know, maybe the. Actually when you were looking and planning out that project, you maybe had your checklist and your roadmap, if you like, so you then did it. Now, if you look back at that roadmap, which bits of that roadmap. Hang on. Right. I wouldn't take that motorway or I wouldn't have gone that way. What learnings do you have from positive and negative? You know, the journey you've been on because you've been there three and a half years plus sort of thing, you know, what are your learnings?

I would say probably one of the most critical things was sitting in front of the CFO with that strategic roadmap, you know, really sort of talking to that so that. So that the understanding of the groundwork and the foundation is there. Because, you know, if you just have discussions and meetings, these things go in one year and out the other. And if you don't. If you don't approach this in a strategic approach and a roadmap approach, it's difficult to kind of convince the rest of the community because, yes, it goes up to the CEO level and sometimes it goes up to even a board level. To get approval for certain levels of projects that you want to implement. But I would say an absolute success from my own personal point of view. And this is advice that I took from a colleague in a previous company. Make sure that you've got your roadmap sorted and you know where you want to go. So it's almost like your goals that you want to achieve. So that's always a document that we refer back to and we look back at, okay, what was our risk then? How is it addressed now? You know, what do we still need to refine and change? So, absolutely, that ties right back into the, I would say, cliched first hundred days of a treasurer, you know, getting to know your stakeholders, making sure you invest enough time in each department and so that they know who you are, but they need to see what your passion is and that you. That you're here to make a change, to make a positive change for the environment. So one of the things, Mike, you know, looking back also at the journey, you know, it sounds like just everything went well. I mean, obviously that's not always the case. One thing that I'm particularly, I would say, excited about and was happy to do is the way we implemented and let's say, try to drive the change management, which is most likely one of the most technically difficult things to do in a global transformation like this, because you have massive cultural differences. But what we try to do is we try to have your typical, you know, I would say, information sessions. We had slide decks. But then what we did is we created a lot of Microsoft Stream videos where people can actually go in and say, okay, but this is how I do this process. And these are the five clicks to retrieve that information. So we really tried to kind of meet all, you know, I would say learning, I would say mediums for people. But even still, even though I thought that was brilliant, some people, you know, just didn't look at it right. So those are the things that I always wanted. How can you do that differently? And yes, we also brought in support there. So that was something that we were also particularly proud of. You know, I would say in this journey, you know, looking back, I would say you can always spend more time, you know, informing and educating people and getting them, you know, to believe what you believe and see what you see. Sometimes that you're just a bit of, you know, I would say drawn back about, you know, with the amount of time you have available to bring it forward, you know, so timeline adds all the pressure. So looking back, and I would have loved to spend more time, you know, with people. But I'm. I'm not so sure that would have, you know, made such a big difference because in certain cases you just have to bring it live before they start working on it.

Yeah, but you say that I, I love that idea of the. And I. And they've done that a little bit. Honeywell. I remember Severine saying this before some of the. They created videos and actually we ask our website guys a lot of the time now because, you know, they've had a change of staffing and stuff. But what we did is I said, look, can you show us how to do this? You know, a lot of the time I don't want us to do it, but actually if we're stuck, rather than waiting for them to do it or anything else, is that, can you just do a screen O matic, show us how to do it? We're not always going to do it. And I think that's the mistake. Somebody, oh, well, you must do it. I've said to the guys, you know, that's not our key things. We. They're much better designers, they're much better web programmers, but if we need to jump on the tools and things. Yeah, that's, you know, really empowers people within Treasury, I think as well.

Absolutely, absolutely. And then, you know, one of the other things we did, Mike and I think that's probably the, the auditor that came back to me and also being involved in the SOX environment, you know, we really went out and flowcharted our processes because I wanted to also distribute this to our stakeholders to see what is happening behind the scenes. So that I think a lot of people kind of think, okay, as treasury, what did treasury do? Okay, great. What's the cash balance today? And it's about way more than just that. Right. I mean, it drills into various other things as well. But we have a complete set of flowcharts and these we will make available to the stakeholders. And we've distributed some of that so that there's a. Hopefully they can be looked into and say, okay, okay, now I understand the process and that's why we need to do this in order for treasury to do that.

And A.C. let's just, you know, you say about where are you up to now with. With Treasury? And you know, we've got another, you know, five, ten minutes of the show, you know, and before we do get to that stage. And I know that, as I said at the beginning, we could just talk for hours because I love the passion but also the Understanding of Treasury, where do you see it? So of you've embraced this technology, it's, it's working with you guys, not straight through processing a lot of stuff, but where do you see it going next? Where do you see it developing? You know, and then we'll come on to sort of a reflection if you like, for the other, you know, the people listening today. But you know, where do you see it?

Whenever we talk about technologies and the so called buzzwords that you hear all the time is today, you know, blockchain, RPA and machine learning and all of that. The thing is, you know, fundamental to these things that the processes needs to be established. So, so you need to establish the process and then you can use the technology. The technology is an absolute enabler and you can already see that today. Mike, with treasury teams getting smaller and smaller and smaller and then with another crisis that hit now with the pandemic, suddenly it is not just a luxury to have a Treasury team, but it's also, it's a must to have that visibility on planning and cash management, et cetera, et cetera. So that sort of similar to the stories that I were told about 2008 because that's actually when I started with BWC just after my studies is it's an increased focus. So treasurers need to be technology savvy. I mean I think that's not something new. Right. So you need to be technology savvy but you need to kind of see where you can cut down. And I would say this sounds like a derogatory term, but cut down, you know, repetitive monkey work so that you can be strategic also in your analyst level. Right. So you know, free up time for people to be able to look at, at information that can make a difference. So yes, I think technology is the forefront. Yes, we're going to do see more around API connections, we're going to see more around, you know, machine robo, robot, you know, RPA's, etc. Etc. But you need to get your house in order before you can even look at these technologies. And a lot of us have been struggling to get the house in order before you go that direction. But yes, treasury will remain and keep on being a strategic business partner. And I believe it's strong resource for management team and especially a CFO to utilize and once that is understood, you know, it's just an, you know, it increases that CFOs. I would say toolset and I'm not really.

Yeah, again, I don't want to run out of time today. I Just want to keep talking, but we can't, we keep it at this. As we look back today and, you know, reflect back over, I want you to be able to give some tips to the guys today. And again, as always, maybe we're looking at the more junior candidates, you know, earlier on in their stage there they're you 10 years ago, you know, and they are, you know, working for an audit firm and do call us, we're happy to move you on and things. And then we maybe talk to the guys at sort of mid level and things like that, making the next step up or the, you know, guys similar level that are group treasurers and, you know, oh, actually we should be embracing these, know, technologies that get rid of repetitive, you know, and we can systematize this stuff. Looking at each of those, you know, maybe we reflect on those. What are the tips you would give people? We'll put your LinkedIn, you know, details in the show notes you do every week, sometimes just a couple of minutes. But I'd actually, I think there's more to give. So go back to you. What do you think?

Yeah, I would say for me, for me that's really twofold, Mike. On the one side is educate yourself and make sure you've got the right set of qualifications. Right. And I think that goes without saying because that gets you through the door. If you really want to advance your career, that gets you through the door. But then once you are there, once you are there, you know, then you're part of that group and part of that pool, then you need to show, you know, what you're worth. So I could not stress this more that you need to challenge the status quo every day. Right. Sometimes it comes with a bit of frustration and I don't think everybody likes it, but I would say challenge the status quo and show the people what you work for. You work with your passion for what you're doing and then lastly back yourself, you know, because I think, you know, more often than not you're sitting in scenarios we think, should I, shouldn't I, should I, shouldn't I? You know, and then looking back, you always would think, you know, I should have done that. So, yeah, I would say, you know, back yourself because once you've equipped yourself with the right, you know, experience, let's call it in qualifications, it's time to step it up and put yourself out there and make mistakes. Unfortunately, in the treasury world, you know, we are not, I would say, really allowed to make a lot of mistakes because it has real impact.

So.

But you know, I'm talking about, you know, the opportunity to do stuff and ask the questions and raise your voice. Exactly. Go for it. I mean, it does not hold. I mean we all said do not hold back. You know, don't hold back. If you want to, if you want to sit and you know, just happy with what you're doing, that's fine. There's nothing wrong with it. But if you want to go for.

It, just do it then with the mid level guys and you know, coming up, what, you know, looking back at the steps you've made, you know, what would, what would you say? You know, you got to that treasurer position relatively early, if that's all right. Some rapid moves, you've got that passion. Is that just you and the drive or what would you say to other guys?

Well, it's a lot of the times it's opportunity and timing base, there's no doubt about that. And somebody has to see something in you that and they would ultimately take you on. But you know, I think in any level, you know, I think for me one of the biggest challenges was running somebody else's race and I wanted to actually run my own race and I wanted to show that, listen, I can do this, this, this and that. Sometimes, Mike, is difficult because once you start challenging your leader too much, you know, I think the, it's not always received, you know, very positive. It's, it's in very mature managed situations where somebody said, listen, this guy's a go getter, let's bring him up, let's bring him up. But you know, at any level you need to see, listen, what can I do today? What can I learn today to bring me one step closer to where I want to be? And without a doubt, Mike, I think what I found for myself more often than not not is when I start the year, I write down a couple of goals, what I think I want to achieve in the year and where I want to be in two to three years. And that's almost like a subconscious, I don't want to go into psychology discussion, but it's almost like a subconscious programming where I tell myself, listen, this is where I think I should be and go. And then I take it from, you know, detailed levels to, you know, to title, remuneration and all of that, you know, so that, that is part of, I would say a little bit of the inside of how I've done. Planet.

What's next for you? What's next for the world of Treasury? You know, where do you think people should be focusing Their attentions, you know, you know, that's a bit of a. I know it's a massive question and stuff, and if I qualify a little bit, you know, let's look at us, you know, we're looking at doing the world's returning. You know, we haven't gone into Covid today. I didn't think, you know, I thought let's have a rest from that sort of thing. But we'll just, you know, bring it up. As I brought up, you know, we've got through that, you know, the world of treasury recruitment is improving. We're about talking, which is blooming brilliant and everything else. You know, the key thing for me is actually, and anyone listening today, we're going to be actually sending out a lot more and we're. We've listening to people like you and the embracing of automation. We have a great CRM and actually we're going to be reaching out automatically to people and that's not to take out human contact, it's to improve the human contact. But it's a lot of, exactly as you said, a lot of extra work to then get to that less work stage, that automation later on, which makes our jobs more interesting. That's a key thing for us. And it sounds like. I know that you've embraced that sort of thing, but what would you, you know, what's next? You know, that's the big question. Where do you see things maybe going? You know, we've got the internal, external, you know, back to you as we, you know, this will be the wrap up for today's episode. So what are you seeing, Micah, thanks.

So it's been a pleasure being on your, on your podcast today. I think for us internally, we'll keep on refining our processes and stretching, I would say, best practice, Treasury, I would say tools, you know, and to really enhance processes. But then also look at virtual structures like we've already been started to implement, you know, and then typical payment factories, etc. So we will just keep on working on that and refining and, you know, making the treasury more efficient with regards to new technology. Now, sometimes it annoys me a bit always hearing about blockchain and all these, although they're all great and brilliant and all exciting, but, but I don't see a lot of application of that with people that are still running Treasuries that need to be, let's say, revamped or transformed. So very, very exciting. But what I do see is I think there's just going to be more and more integration and take on a fintech solutions, whatever that may be. And that might also sound like a buzzword, but you could see the banking environment are also very much focusing on that to see how exposed they are and what do they need to take in and take off. But you can see the space especially around payment and spend management and you see that also with the latest, I would really just call it out, the latest acquisition from Cooper of Belen that you couple the spend management with treasury and it's going to be a winning solution and I think it's going to be great. So that I see almost like as high risk. I do see that there's a lot of focus on fintechs. And you know what, it's a reduced repetitive. The repetitive processes, you know, get rid of repetitive processes and be strategic.

Amazing. AC we as I said we could talk for hours. Then we will do over a beer or two when we're allowed out of our houses. Webinar. Thank you for today's episode. I know people will get a lot. We'll put your LinkedIn details in the show Notes is going to grow your network and yeah, another great person having your network and look forward to you celebrating you winning your next couple of Adam Smith Awards. You know, just a nice do the treble next time. That'd be lovely. Lovely.

Thank you, Mike. Thank you very much.

Thank you, sir. Hello, it's Mike here again. I hope you enjoyed this week's show. If you did, then maybe you want to follow the show or subscribe, depending on where you listen, whether that's itunes, Spotify or another great place to listen to the show from. It's totally free and means that you'll be the first to see each and every week when we release a new show. And maybe whilst you're there, you could even leave a quick review. Reviews and ratings are among the most important metrics for a podcast to effectively rank. And as you can probably appreciate, the podcast is a lot of hard work to produce every week. It'd be amazing. Just take say 20 seconds, leave a quick review of my amazing guests and their great career stories. We'd really appreciate it. Thanks very much and I can't wait to see you soon. Sam.