Chasing the Ultimate Work-Life Balance in Treasury with Felix Luber

Foreign welcome to this week's Treasury Career Corner podcast where I interview treasury professionals about their treasury careers. Each and every week I talk to them about how they build their careers, where they are now, where they see both themselves and the treasury profession going to next. Let's get on with the show. This week's show join by Felix Luber, the head of treasury and payments at Marley Spoon. Now for those of you don't know, Marley Spoon was founded in 2014. It's a cooking platform that makes it easy to cook a delicious meal at home by sending you tasty recipes, fresh ingredients directly to your door. And with the group, as they say, you're in control. You decide what to eat, when to eat it and how much to eat. So we'll go back to that later on in the show and bring us up to date with that. But Felix, one of the big things we've had a nice pre podcast call. We talk about work life balance throughout this and you know, leads that actually Marley Spoon the work life balance training which I think will come out as we talk through some of the roles he's done and things like that. But we're going to go right back to the very beginning of your career many, many years ago. Not that many years ago. Felix, talk us through your career today, how you first started and discovered finance and then Treasury. And over to you sir.

Okay, how do I start my career? I think when I think back to my studies. So I studied mathematics by the way in Berlin and I think it was just a random event that I ended up in finance in the beginning. I mean one of my tutors that from the past she was working for a bank and she needed desperately a working student and she reached out to me and asked me so if you would like to work in a bank in the liquidity risk controlling. She's, she's in need for a working student. That working student needs to, needs to be able to do some development work in SQL. I had no clue about SQL but developed a little bit in Java and she said well just put it in your CV that you can do it and you will learn it quickly. So this is how the journey started, with a lie. So my finances, a few of them.

On resumes and CVs but, but that's not too bad. At least you were technically strong so that was a good thing.

At least the hiring manager asked me to lie.

Okay, I'm not recommending that on this podcast. Let's just fly out the head. He's already gone down that rabbit. But What I'm saying is you were very technically able in IT and technology, so yeah, that was a good start. But back to you.

So I started there and I had to do lots of SQL stuff there and actually it was quite easy to learn what I needed to do there. So being there, I mean, the liquidity risk department, they are overseeing the treasury activities. So they are kind of the bad cops next to the treasury guys. And I don't know, I always thought like these treasury guys, it's kind of interesting, they're always talking about the markets and I had the feeling they know everything about what's going on in the financial markets. And they said, well, I would like to learn that. Honestly, I had no clue what treasury actually is, but I decided so after I finished my studies, I want to work in Treasury. So as it is when, when you finish your university studies, my feeling is people usually don't have a clue what they are applying for in their first job. So I applied at the Dexia. It was a small bank in Germany, but within the group of the Dexia, which was in France and I think Belgium, a big bank. Before, before they, before everything went south with them. There was a training program in Berlin for Treasury. So I said, well, this is what I want. So I applied, applied for that job. And this is how my treasury career initially started. Let's say with that sort of.

You say it started there, but you'd seen treasury, you'd heard a bit about it. What did you expect? And was it what you expected?

Absolutely not. But this was coming a little bit from the fact that the bank was already in runoff mode. And actually I had no clue what runoff mode means. So I just said, well, let's do it, we'll be cool. I had always the imagination, like the treasurer in a bank is trading the whole day. Well, with the bank in runoff mode, this is not true. We were not trading that frequently for some obvious reasons, of course, but I mean, I think you should always make the best out of each situation. So we were not trading that that often but, well, there's still enough things to learn and to do. So my dream, liked trading up and down, everything just broke. I realized that maybe treasurer is as well, not the position that trades all the day, but, well, it was, it was really interesting to get to know what, what a banking treasury is, how everything works together. And I mean this bank was kind of cool because what it was a really small bank and so we had, I think in Berlin, 80 employees. That's why you really got to Know all the departments. So there was a kind of rotation in the, in the program. So was then working in the back office in the controlling. I think one day I repaired chairs. So I did almost everything in the chain of a small bank and yeah, somehow understood, understood how the bank was working and I think a really, really happy time there. So I was quite lucky to travel. Great manager over there. I think he was one of the managers during my career where I learned really a lot about how to manage people well, how not to overstress them, to lean back, and how to give the people the freedom to do what they're best at.

And you say that and when you got that first introduction to treasury, and a lot of people that I speak to, particularly in Europe, actually a lot of the time in Belgium, in Germany and various places across Europe, you know, you get your first start in treasury within a bank, you get broad breadth of experience and you either then deep dive in cash management or deep, you know, go into certain areas. But you then made the move to corporate. How did that come about? Or was it something you were particularly looking for? You said about the bank being a runoff and things. Was it you had to get a job or, you know, because I know that there were some other things going on or, you know, talk me through how you then made the next move.

So, I mean, this trainee program, it was limited to two years as the mother company was in runoff mode. The bank itself was not able to give me a vision, so a contract or whatever. So we had a talk about that. The HR department had to tell me, felix, we all think it's great, but we just cannot do it. This was then the point where I said, okay, well, obviously I need a new job, which is, by the way, if it's your first job and you don't get an additional contract. But it's kind of alarming and you're getting nervous. So I had to look around for a new job. And I was thinking a bit strategically at that point of time because I really like the treasury environment, I like the bank. But from my background, I was born in Berlin and the bank was as well in Berlin. And I want to stay in Berlin. In Berlin, the banking sector is really small, so there are not many banks here. So it's not Frankfurt, it's not London, it's not Paris or whatever. So I said, well, I would like to do that, but strategically seen, there are not many jobs around here, which, which I could do. And I said, okay, I want, I want to go more on the Corporate, corporate side. So to enable me in the end, I mean if I do both, so the banking treasury and the corporate treasury side, I can afterwards joined both sides again. So I just opened another door strategically and that's why I decided then to go to Zalando for a position, I think it was called Treasury Manager. So I was responsible for the cash management topics there.

Can you explain again in Europe, you know a lot of people, UK Europe, a lot of us know about Zalando international guys in the US and various.

Yeah, sure. Zalando is an E commerce fashion retailer. So they're selling shoes and shirts, et cetera to their customers. So it's I think the biggest in Europe as to my latest knowledge.

So you got there as had some, some basic treasury experience and skills and stuff like that, but then you made the move across and you know, became the sort of treasury manager. What was that step up like? Thanks.

I mean it was kind of, to be honest, I had to learn a complete new job and it was completely different. I mean I had basic knowledge in banking treasury but as to my experience, banking treasury and corporate treasury is a complete different thing. So I have never heard about a host to host connection. I have never heard about an Ebix connection. I've never heard about that you have more than one bank account because if you're the bank, well you have your account at the Germany, at the BundesBank, at the ECB, but you do not need to manage lots of bank accounts. And so this, this whole thing like thinking with which bank I want to have an account and how do I connect them, how do I manage my payment runs, etc. It was a complete new world and somehow I came there as someone who was recognized, as someone who has already experience. But honestly I had no experience at all in the topic I was working now and I had to learn a lot. I mean the only thing I brought with me I think was not having too much respect for bankers because I've been a banker and I didn't have too much respect for myself.

You knew what they were thinking about doing and things like that sort of thing.

So yeah, so on the one hand not glorifying a banker because it's just another person and they're just humans like all the others. But on the other hand it's always easy if you understand the needs of the bank. So if you know how they're regulated, why they're behaving like they're behaving, what is their key concern, what are their goals, etcetera. I think this is kind of easier to understand when you have been into a bank. Therefore, I somehow found me in the position that I talked a lot to the banks and was really relaxed talking to the banks. And I had the feeling that my colleagues at the beginning looked at me like I'm an alien, that I just started the conversation with the banks, making jokes with them and just being. Being really direct with them.

Well, you knew what they were, which angles they were coming at, and you. So you made that manager role, which is great, and you really got a hold of an. Because I sort of want to get into the life balances and things like that. But you did that for a few years and then you made the move to probably the most challenging period of your career so far, if we can say that, and people can read about it in the press and things like that. But you then joined Germania and stuff. Do you want to take us through that move and then tell us a bit more about it? Back to you.

So Puer Gemani. And by the way, this was the only changing position in my career that I actively pushed forward. I really liked Zalando. It was a great place to work. My colleagues, I caught them, most of them friends. So it was really awesome, great time. But I wanted to come into a managing position. And even though I had the title manager, this meant at Zalando, well, that you're managing a topic, but you're not managing people. So. And I wanted to manage people because I had the opinion at that time that it would be really, really fun for me and that I like to help people, I want to like to develop people, and I wanted to try that. But at Zalando there was no opportunity for that at that point. My manager made that clear. So we had to depart at some point. And this was somehow clear, I think, for all parties. Actually, the move to Germania was then, again, a bit randomly to be hon. Because my situation at that time was I was on parental leave with my. With my first kid. We were just building our house. I think it was two months before the construction ended. So it was really stressful. I think one of the most stressful times during my life. I saw the position on LinkedIn or something like this, and I said, well, it's a team lead, treasury position sounds great, but I don't have time to produce cover letter, et cetera. So I just said, well, another time in life. But then I think two weeks later, a headhunter called me and he said, look, I have a great position, I'm currently trying to fill. It's in the airline industry. And I was like, ah, I know which position this is the one I have no time for. Then he said, look, you just need to send me your cv. And I was like, well, only the cv, so I don't have any actual workload on that. Well, for that I have time. So I quickly updated my CV and sent it to him and then I went to the interview. So they invited me and it was, I mean, I had the interview and I had the feeling like, okay, it's not working with them. So we were a little bit distant. People that know me know that I'm directly into the discussion and I'm connecting with people, etc. The feeling we are not connected. So which is for me, I cannot live without being really connected to the people next to me. So I was really lost in this, in this discussion. And then they didn't come back for three months or something and I was already like, okay, well yeah, yeah, yeah, you could at least tell me that you don't want to work with me. It's fine. And then out of nothing, they had under called me and he was like, well, they don't want to hire you as a team lead Treasury. And I was like, okay, what's coming now? I mean, same position, smaller company, makes no sense for me. And then he said, but they would like to hire you as a head of position. And I was like, really? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, sounds like a fairy tale to me. I mean, I read these things on the Internet that sometimes if another position is there, companies would ask you for another position as well. But I always thought, well, there's a legend. No one ever faced that. But they actually asked me and at that point I wasn't sure to take that honestly because, I mean, you, you already mentioned the word work life balance. So work life balance. I mean, it's kind of tricky to define because I think everyone has a different definition of work life balance. But for me it was always. I mean, I do usually try to work only 7 till 8 hours if possible. I mean, depends on the workload, of course, because I'm most productive if I work this amount of hours. So then the best results are coming out of me. I was doing that at Zalando without problems. And then I thought, okay, ahead of position. And they told me, well, you would have two teams, two directs, 10 people in total under your management, a significant budget, etc. And I was like, okay, this is not going to work with how I would want to live my life. I mean, I just a small kid at home, I never wanted to be always far away and only the good night. That let's say it like, yes.

And also just there wasn't really the culture at the time. It was much more, you know, where you'll work here and you'll do these hours. But you were very explicit from the beginning, weren't you? And I know that we talked about this. What, how did that go down?

This was on the, in the, in the interview then. So when, when I came to them about the head of position. So we talked, all the details about the job, et cetera, salary was clear. So we were at this point of the interview where everyone asks like, okay, do we have any further questions? You asked two questions, they answered them and then everyone was ready to say, well, okay, we don't give you the contract now, but we will. We, we all knew we will sign it. Then I said, yeah, well, look, there's one thing we, we just need to agree on that shouldn't be a big thing. Look, I don't work after 6.

The jaws hit the floor, didn't they?

I mean, they were really like, I had the feeling they thought I'm living in a different world and they heard the wrong thing in that moment and they were just sitting down again and asked me, became a little bit nervous, these guys, I think, and they were like, yeah, well, but if it's an emergency, so sometimes we need to work longer here and told them, look, if it's an emergency, I'm always there. I like to get the things done and they are normal responsibility, but not day to day. Because day to day, I strongly believe that you should be able to finish your work during your working hours. And this is in my opinion, a healthy approach. But this is only valid for me to be quite fair because I think work, life, balance, everyone defines it differently and I think everyone needs to. Needs to see how much he or she wants to work. And the most important thing, in my opinion is that you are happy with how your setup is. But for me, the setup is like, I don't want to work that much because A, I want to have lots of time for my wife and my two kids and B, I think it's as well the best for the company because I'm more productive if I work less. Sounds stupid, but that's how it is with me.

I think you recharge and you make sure that you give it your best when you're there. And it's not. And again, we Both Felix and I spoke before the show and I got a better understanding because it was like, you know, you're 100% there when you're doing your time there and it's like. And then you not disengage, you know, but you actually then were able to get your rest and actually have that balance rather than elongate the hours every day and just work yourself to a standstill. And. And we, we both talked about this and I thought was really interesting and we'll come back to work life balance. But can you then talk us through again? The group then went for insolvency at a later stage. So let's go into the industry before again. I don't want to run out of time on today's episode because I think you've got some great information to give to people about how you then made a couple more moves with an Internet company stuff. So talk us through that situation because obviously that wasn't the sort of nine to five, that was the emergency situation. But talk us through.

So the insolvency itself. Well, yeah, this cannot be a 9 to 5 job, of course. I mean, I think it started some one or two months before we filed for insolvency that all my vacations have been rejected. So like I'm on the weekend, so we have a week off, I'm on the weekend away and my manager already calls me like, okay, well you can have the Monday. But you say please be back to the office. And so this is how it started. And I mean the good thing as a treasurer is you usually see this coming. So from a financial perspective, you stop spending on things, you stop booking expensive, expensive vacations, etc. For the next year because, well, you don't know what would come. So you're prepared. I mean, the workload comes and I think it was, if I remembered correctly, must have been between, I think Christmas and New Year's Eve when the calls came, like, okay, now we are in a serious situation. We are building data rooms for potential investors, et cetera. Then this whole thing started through the January until I think 6th of February where we filed for insolvency. The real sayor Rashi time of that was I think two weeks. So the last two weeks were really intense where you stayed at the office until, I don't know, sometimes 2am in the morning or 3am in the morning and you were back in the morning again. So at 8 or something you're there. You're as well on the weekend there. I mean, lots of pressure there. Because I mean, why is treasury that important at that point of time in an airline? The thing is the regulation. So if you need to file for insurvency with an airline, you don't have any assets left because every airline is selling their aircraft before they file for insurvency. So people out there, if you hear that your airline is selling aircrafts, be aware that you might not be, might not get the service. It's a long notice. So of course we didn't have any, any aircrafts left that we, that we could have solved. So the only value that an airline has left is their, their slots. So they have the right to, to fly through a specific time from Berlin to London or whatever, or in our case to Iran. This was as well route really interesting part of the treasury career to cross the field to say to the bank, well we do have business with Iran, but this may be a different topic.

Well, so I was keen to again because we can't run out of time today. But you got through that period and then it's sort of, well, you close down things, if that's the right way to put it, before you then made a move, not really sort of a career move just to get your balance back a little bit. Would that be the right way to say it?

I mean, after that it was really intense and then came the phase where everything dropped. So we filed for the insolvency and then you are from 100% to zero because you have nothing to do anymore. You're not allowed to do via any payments and you're close from burnout to bore out. You have this transition very quickly. And then I was looking again for a job because, well, obviously I needed one. Of course, in my discussions about the next position, work life balance was as well a big topic because I had one kid and my wife was currently pregnant. So really bad timing to file for an insolvency. I don't want to say there's a good timing for filing for insolvency, but for me it was kind of really bad from a personal perspective. Well then I had two job offers. So one was becoming head of treasury for a digital company and the other one was to become an investment controller at Rocket Internet, which we see in Berlin. So there, for example, they founded Zalando or HelloFresh, et cetera. So these kinds of companies, they make big at that point of time. I mean, from a work life balance perspective, I think I talked this through with both of them and for me at that point of time it was really Important to see where's the biggest development, because I was there at my first management position at Germania, and I really liked it. I mean, in the beginning is what is really hard. And to. To be quite honest, I cried quite often in the evening because it was really, really stressful. So the first, the first three months or something like this, I think almost every week I cried because it was really, really tough. But then at some point I learned to do that and I really liked it. And I said, well, I would like to do more management. I want go more into management. And then I thought, okay, if I want to do it and want to step up, if I would be the hiring manager, would I hire me as director, finance, or however you want to call it. And I said, well, obviously not, because what do we have in my pockets? I have, I mean, treasury experience. Fine, a little bit of payments because it was responsible for payments at the airline, but nothing more. So I said, well, I cannot sell that story to anyone. So I need to do something that I haven't done before and to learn something new. And that's why at the end of the day, I took the offer from Rocket Internet and moved to them. And by the way, the job was not as I expected it because I thought investment controllers look really into the figures of the company if they're worth spending more cash into it, et cetera. This is what I thought. And once again, I realized if you haven't done the job before, you have no clue about the job.

Yes, you need to learn about it as well. And we've talked about this before. So then you made the, you know, sort of that role again. Let's sort of, let's listen Rocket through that role because you were there for a period of time, you learned some stuff, but then you made the move to Marley Spoon.

So let's go through those once again. There was kind of bad situation. So the CEO decided to delist the company because of this. Of course, there are some strategic, strategic decisions behind that. Why my job just vanished. So once again, I was sitting there looking, looking for a job and it was kind of. Well, it was too early because I wanted to learn a lot in general at Rocket and then step up to the next level. So I said, well, and what kind of situation am I? Have I learned so much that I can sell this to someone that I should have in the next position? I'm not sure. So I just started looking for jobs and wasn't really sure where to apply to. So of course I picked some things and Tested it a bit. And then a headhunter approached me. He said, well, I have positioned as a Treasury manager at Molly Spoons great company. And I thought, well, a, I don't know Marley Spoon, and B, I don't want to be the treasurer again because I want. I want to learn more. The head and was quite good because he said, well, let's. Felix, let's take a step back. I will take this information to the CFO and tell him, look, Felix would like to do something else, but maybe we can find an arrangement or whatever. So this was when I said, okay, let's do this. And then I had to talk with the cfo, who told me, look, right now I need a treasurer, so I need you to do treasury, but we can really think about developing you, et cetera. Just trust me that I will do it. By the way, we don't have a Treasury yet. So you would build it from the scratch. And this was when I somehow thought, well, building it from the scratch, this is new. So I didn't want to do the same job again. So being the treasurer there. But I thought building it, it's different. It's a new learning. So, well, it's great. And having the outlook to do something else is as well. Great. So why not then was kind of a quick process. I think I had seven interviews in a week. On week two, we all agreed that we want to do this and we signed the contract.

And tell us again, I gave a brief description of Marley Spoon. So you were building a treasury from scratch at Marley Spoon. So again, Marley Spoon, explain for the listeners what you guys do and a bit of a PR bit for you guys and how that then impacts on Treasury.

Yes, I mean, meal kit, subscription business, online Meerkit subscription business. So this means what is our business model? You as a customer, you register for a subscription, but very flexible subscription. Each week you can decide if you want to receive a box, how many portions do you want to have, how many meals do you want to have? So do you have an evening where you have friends around, so maybe for that evening you order more portions, et cetera, or you can skip that week or terminate your contract for the long term as well. So just skip it completely. The customer then receives, in the best case each week, a box with all the ingredients and can just cook and has, of course, the instructions to cook, et cetera, and get some. I mean, I really love cooking and I'm cooking every evening fresh for my family. But with Marley Spoon, it gives me some variety in the recipes because There are lots of things I would usually don't think about buying these items or combining them. This is kind of a great experience so that you enlarge your portfolio and you. It is interesting what the world you get to eat and sometimes you think like, well, I don't know if it's like it, but then you just say, well, let's try it. I mean it cannot be bad.

Expands your thinking as well as you.

Say, yeah, and this somehow enlarges your horizon a bit in terms of food. And that's awesome. So at least for me.

And then let's do this work life thing. So you're the trainee and we brought out a little bit when you said this before with your previous role and then you made a couple of things and this was something that we, we talked about it and it's new world. Working from home and working remotely, everyone listening. You know, some people will be all actually listening to this whilst they're sitting at their desks and maybe working remotely and doing stuff and having this going on in the background where they couldn't do it in an office. But you, you guys have obviously been doing that. But more, why is that so important to you and where does that come from and how does that fit into Treasury?

I think it is important for me because it makes me happy and I think it makes me healthy. These are the main reasons for me and I'm trying to encourage as well other people to do that not to have the same schedule. Like me, everyone needs to know the priorities and how each and every person is happy in life. But to think about how to be happy during the working hours or during work and how to do the schedule and I mean, when it comes to remote work, it's always kind of a challenge because people usually think they need to be there all the time. And this is, I think one of, one of the biggest challenges because no one sees anymore if you're at the office or not. So everyone has the feeling like I need to be there, I need to show that I'm present, etc. Be available all the times. And I think this creates a lot of stress with the people, but it is a thing with the home office. So I think in that particular way people need to learn to relax and to say, well, I am there when I'm needed, but I'm not there all the time. I mean, my example, I usually stop working at 5, so I have a block on my calendar from 5 to 9. It's called Family time and in brackets, only meeting if Important and urgent. So I'm there if I'm really needed. But usually there are not so many meetings that are urgent and important at the same time. Then afterwards I sometimes pick up. I mean, it depends on the workload. I mean we are doing business in Australia, in Europe and in the us so therefore I usually have some topics in the evening with the us so like payment approvals or just communicating with the banks. Because the banks, they don't work 247 usually. So if you want to turn around things quickly, well, you should write an email while you're watching a movie or whatever. So just to quickly turn it around. So give them an answer. And most of the things you need to organize, you can organize without looking at an Excel spreadsheet or whatever. Most of the things are just quick communications. This I usually do in the evening. So it's not like I would stop working at 5. And I think we're not the company for that because we are too international for that. And we have as well meetings in the morning with Australia. I mean, how would you like to organize it without having meetings in the morning? But it's about, I think the flexibility you have on both ends. So it's taking and giving you lead.

The training for this in the group. And you've talked about this, what does that entail? How do you sort of encourage that to be. Do you say that it's about blocking out your calendar or it's about this, about that, how do you do it?

The most things we do is really discussing about what does work life balance mean for each person, how they would define it. And then we come usually to the fact that it's really linked to being happy. And then we talk about, okay, what is important for the people, how do they become happy and how do they have Joy at work, etc. And then of course we are coming as well to the topic, like what is blocking them from achieving that. Because we all want to have a awesome work life balance, whatever that means. We all struggling with it. And me as well, of course I don't have always the desired work life balance I would like to have. But then the question comes, okay, what are the blockers? And then we usually talk about, okay, how can we solve this problem? And then it's really specific on the needs that people have. So you can of course can expand with what, what I'm usually doing. So I'm actively managing my calendar. So for each task that I have, I just put a block into my calendar. So for example, I have a Block on my calendar where I say, okay, I read emails, one hour blocker. But during reading these emails, I only answer the quick, quick ones. If it's a bigger one and I need to do some calculations or whatever, I create a new blocker in my calendar where I say, okay, I need to write the following email. And this of course, depends on some background research or whatever. So I have another half an hour block only for that email, but I do it on a later stage because otherwise I would lose track on going through the emails. So I'm actively steering my day through my calendar and I think the calendar is a really great tool. This is really underestimated.

Yeah, the power of that calendar because.

Yeah, yeah, the power. Yeah, the power the calendar has because your calendar shows the other people if you're available or not. If you have a blocker in your calendar for whatever reason, the other person needs to ask if you have time. If the other person just sends you an invite for that time, you can just say, look, I am blocked at that time. Please can we discuss about another time? Or you prioritize something, something differently. So this can work as well. And not only work tasks, I think you should as well manage actively your breaks. So, for example, I have breaks in my calendar for doing a workout. So doing some sports during the day and then it gets respected and then you can actively steer what you're doing and the good thing as well. You see what you did at the end of the day.

Before we move on to the end of the show and giving the top tips to other people listening today, what would you say as you look towards the future of treasury and we've been through this into the crisis, we got through the other side. Is it the continual sort of embracing of technology that helps you as a treasurer like this and just as basic as your calendar and your times and things like that, or is it something else or what are the other things you're saying?

I think we will all get more analytical. So I think in the past, the treasury functions sometimes had only, for example, from liquidity forecast perspective, they had a rough liquidity forecast that was maybe not that flexible. And now a crisis hit us all in both ways. I mean, some Treasury Departments had the problem that the company was going south. The other treasury departments, I think the challenge that the company was going north. And most times, I think lots of them had issues in forecasting correctly, the liquidity position, et cetera, because the whole business model was maybe disrupted or someone shook the company. My personal opinion is that this will Somehow speed up the process of treasurers being more and more analysts and becoming more and more analysts and really data experts, that the treasury is becoming more data driven. But I mean, who am I to say that? I mean I have less than 10 years working experience so I think that.

Means, you know, pushes you at the front of it. You know, this is people that have been doing it for 30, 40 years, you know, in the, in the. With the greatest respect, they're leaving it to you, you know, they're passing it on, that sort of baton sort of thing.

Yes, yes. I mean sure there's a transition and I think it's becomes more and more in the Treasury Department as well, but in other functions and finance as well, that you're implementing more and more complex tools that give you deeper insight in the data and you need to become an expert in A implementing such tools and B reading those tools and working with those tools. Excel is a great thing for some calculations, but it cannot be the solution for deeper analysis, etc. So you need, you need to be really with the time so. And becoming a really expert in data.

And know what you're doing and utilizing it as well. We're approaching to the end of today's show and looking back, you've got, we've deep dive on that sort of balance thing as well and everything else. But if you look at it and you've got some junior guys that were you a few years ago and you've got some mid level guys and you're moving towards that sort of seniority and things like that. We'll put your LinkedIn details in the show notes. But what advice would you give to those guys? You made that transition from being a contributor to being more of a manager whilst contributing at the same time. But you've been through that transition and there'll be people listening today. They go through similar or whatever. What are the top tips that you would give for those guys or people that are listening today?

I would say what was always my strategy. So what worked for me pretty well. I was always taking the position that added the most value in terms of learnings for me. I was never aiming for the cash. So there were several situations in my career where I took an offer that was paid less than the other offer. But I said my development is better in that position. So it's like an investment. So I'm investing in my career. If I take the position that is maybe with a lower salary but the higher development and I would always aim for positions where I learned the most I would always have a good look at the manager there. So I would always question the manager, okay, how would you like to develop me? What will I be? So the question that the candidate usually get asked, so where do you see yourself in two years? I would always ask the manager, where do you see me in two years? So what are you doing that I become the better me. So this is I think a big thing. And what I usually tell people when I do mentoring with them, I always tell them be strategical, never try to achieve it at the moment, but always think ahead in the future. So if you're changing position or not, I mean in my case I change frequently my position but I don't think that you need to, I would always say look forward for the job you would like to have. Think about what kind of skillset you would need to have that job. Maybe talk even with your manager about it and tell them, look, I want that you develop me in the following direction. What do I need to do? And then think strategically about it. Think like, okay, in this position I need to have some more accounting knowledge. Okay, then think about how can you, how can you get more accounting knowledge? Maybe talk to your manager, tell him, look, I would like to participate in projects that are more, more about accounting so that I can learn it. Because I think this would be a great chance for me and this some are combined thinking strategically and always aiming for the, for the, for the development. I think this was my, at least my key of success till now.

It's been great. We had a lovely chat and we chatted before and we were just, we could keep going. Well, you know, we want to keep it, you know, shorts. We want to focus on some of the things people can, the learnings as well. Felix, thanks for your time today. We will put your details in the show notes so people can expand their networks if you think it's right to connect with them. So, you know, thanks very much and looking forward to seeing you later on in 2021 and thanks for the show.

And have a great day.

And you sir, hello, it's Mike here again. I hope you enjoyed this week's show. If you did, then maybe you want to follow the show or subscribe depending on where you listen, whether that's itunes, Spotify or another great place to listen to the show from. It's totally free and means that you'll be the first to see each show and every week when we release a new show and maybe whilst you're there you could even leave a quick review, reviews and ratings are among the most important metrics for a podcast to effectively rank. And as you can probably appreciate, the podcast is a lot of hard work to produce every week. It'd be amazing. Just take, say, 20 seconds, leave a quick review of my amazing guests and their great career stories. We'd really appreciate it. Thanks very much and I can't wait to see you soon.