Climbing the Treasury Career Ladder with Kate Moorcroft from Barratt Developments

Hello, it's Mike Richards here from the treasury recruitment company. I hope you're enjoying the Treasury Career Corner. If you are great news, perhaps you give us a rating on itunes or wherever you consume your podcast content. This means that even more treasury professionals can benefit from finding out, or by finding out about how treasurers have achieved their career goals. The link to rate our show will list at the bottom of our show notes. And please remember as well, the show itself is as much about you as it is about us. There are specific questions you want us to ask or this feedback you want to give. Please drop me an email. My direct email is mikeresuryrecruitment.com inventibly enough, but anyway, that's enough from me. Let's get on with the show. So welcome to this week's podcast of the Treasury Career Corner. I talk to treasurers globally about their roles, how they built their careers, where they are now, and where they see themselves and the treasury profession going forward in the future. This week I'm delighted to be joined by Kate Moorcroft, Group Treasurer of Barrett Developments. They're one of the largest residential property development companies in the UK and a constituent of the FTSE 100. Kate started her career at the Coventry Building Society back in 2002 trainee and worked her way up through the ranks before being promoted to senior dealer in 2008. In 2010 she was offered the opportunity to move from financial organization actually to a corporate treasury in a corporate role and joined National Express as a Treasury Manager. During that time Kate spent at National Express, she was promoted number of times, where she eventually became the Deputy Group Treasurer, managing a small team and leading a variety of international projects. Kate now holds the position of Group Treasurer with Barrett Development. I'm delighted to be talking to her today about her career. So Kate, that's enough of me whittering on. Kate, tell us about you. Maybe take us back to how you got your first break in Treasury.

Thank you, Mike. So I was quite young when I fell into treasury and again, I think it's one of those things that most people do. I didn't know treasury actually existed, to be perfectly honest, but I worked at Coventry Building Soc, just in one of the branches where I was a mortgage advisor and I at that time was thinking about what did I want to do in terms of a career and I was in my early 20s and I haven't been to university and I've generally just worked in roles rather than, like I say, going to university and a job. Came up for a Treasury trainee in the head office. So I decided to go and spend a couple of hours at the head office just to try and understand what treasury actually is. And it was something that I thought I would be particularly interested in at that time. There was a front office, a middle office and a back office all in one department. And what the role was was to float around all three areas of treasury to learn sort of the ins and outs of the whole of treasury really. So it was a really interesting role. So I went for the role and luckily I got that. Then the FSA came along and said, you need to split out your front, Midland, back office. So I had that opportunity then to decide whether I wanted to, which area of Treasury I wanted to go into. So the middle office at Coventry on site was more sort of the risk side and risk focused and obviously front and back office are quite normal terms used within Treasury. So the bit that I was particularly interested in was the dealing side and comfortably on side too. There was a lot of dealing going on there.

What was that? Because it was the activity area and you're like, oh, yeah, get into it or.

Yeah, it just seemed really, really interesting. That was really exciting, really dynamic. You sort of spent the first four hours of any day on the phone to brokers, to banks doing so basically borrowing money and then we would lend money as well. So it just seemed really exciting. There was different instruments, it wasn't just cash. We looked at mortgage backed securities, floating notes, gilts. So it was just a real sort of fast paced dynamic area of the, you know, of the Treasury Department that I just thought I would really enjoy. And also the interaction with the brokers, the banks. I do like that. I do like picking the phone up and having conversations and building relationships. So that area for me really interested me and luckily that was the area that I ended up going into.

And how big were the team or you know, what was the sort of the coaching that you got there? Was it from guys that had been there for a while or how was it all structured?

Yeah, so the team in total was about 10 and then they split it out. And like I say, the, the area that I went into in the front office, there was three of us, so quite a small team and we were doing something like around 50 to 100 deals a day. So it was quite a busy team. Now they had a group treasurer and a deputy. The treasurer had been there for about five or six years, but he'd been in treasury for a very, very long time. And the deputy he'd been at, he'd been there about 10 years. So I've got really good experience with both of those that helped me bring me through my career at Coventry Building Society and helped me progress internally. So it's good definitely to get sort of training and support from them. And then we did have, because we were quite a lean team, somebody else came in and we actually got a trainee in and I was responsible for training them. So then I got promoted internally. It was good. So there was always that element of growth for me as well, even though I started there quite new and looking.

Back as that was financial services treasury and I know you've got a career now and you've moved into within corporate Treasury. How do you compare the 2 that time FS treasury and now corporate Treasury? The big difference for you back then would you say?

Oh, they're massively different. Massively different. So I was at Coventry building site in treasury for about eight years, went through the credit crunch there as well, which was obviously a really interesting time. And what I realized there is I learned a lot around the different sort of products in the money markets and the markets as a whole, but I didn't know as much strategically about the business. And then the job came up at National Express and I thought it would be a good opportunity to get into corporate. And I remember starting on day one as a Treasury manager thinking started a brand new job that I didn't know anything about. It was so different to come to build an society. It was just revolving credit facility and I've not really done anything, you know, in a building site you don't have anything like that. So it was very different and also it was obviously international, which was something new for me as well. So completely different and completely different sort of focuses as well.

So when you started National Express, describe it. Obviously we here in the uk, but we've got quite an international audience. Describe what national you took the role of treasury manager, National Express. Describe for the listeners what National Express is and what they were like at the time.

So National Express, a transport company and most people actually thought National Express were just UK based. So you see their coaches going up and down the motorways and then they have a big bus network in the, in the Midlands. But also National Express had a third of their business was based in the US and they run the yellow school buses in around 30, 35 states. And also they have a small presence in Canada and also a third of their business was in Spain with a small portion in Morocco. So for me going in to understand the impact that treasury have around the whole business was really interesting and trying to manage. I think the key thing probably is that each division did things completely differently. And, you know, there's obviously the cultural differences as well between the different areas that we were based in. So I think from going in on sort of day one, it was trying to understand what impact does treasury have on those different areas and how can we help? Because obviously we were just based in the uk. And one thing I've never wanted is for treasury or being in a group function to look like we're sitting in an ivory tower and we're telling people what to do. And obviously, you know, even though each division ran buses and coaches, the different jurisdictions and different areas they were in, everything is done completely differently.

And what was the ethos with treasury down to those guys? Was it, you know, the treasury in the UK advised or strongly advised the US and Spain on what to do or how did it operate? And, you know, therefore, what was your sort of impact to those guys? Was it tell, not sell, or was it, guys, you know, you should do this, or how did it work?

When we first joined. So I joined at the same time as my boss, Michelle Davey, and we were both new into the role, so it was a new Treasury Department. And one of the key things that we found out when we were there was actually the. The interaction hadn't been great with the. With the divisions. And that was something that we both strongly believe is really important, because what we don't want to be seen to be doing is telling the divisions what they need to do. What we need to do is work together and support the divisions, but we need to make or get them to understand why we're doing what we're doing. And I think that was really key for us. So we made sure that we went out to meet the team and the finance director of the. The UK Bus and coach division, the rail division, but then also to North America and to Spain and to talk to them about the wider business. So, for example, in North America you have a third of our business, but we also have a third in Spain and a third in the uk. And the reason why we're doing what we're doing is for this reason. So they don't think we're just telling them to do things. What we wanted them to do was understand why we were doing things. And then we ended up building a really good relationship with the divisions. And what happened is, if they needed anything, finance leases, operating leases, anything like that, they would always come to group treasury and we work together.

And Risk profile for the business in that case, because you, as you say, you weren't just a UK business up and down the motorway. How did that sort of, you know, what advice did you give them on a risk profile or coaching them or how did it work?

Yeah. So obviously there's certain elements that we looked at from a group perspective in terms of FX and interest rate. Hedging. One of the biggest things that we did in treasury was fuel hedging and it was obviously one of the biggest risks because if you think how much petrol, diesel, is being spent around the group on a daily basis, it was actually huge. And one of the key things for us, we obviously had a hedging program, but the key thing for us was the reporting and the forecasting of that. And again, hedging. If you talk to people about hedging, not everybody understands what it means or what you were trying to achieve. So breaking things down and explaining why we have the hedging program and actually saying to them, your information is key. We need to understand how much fuel you're using on a daily basis, what you expect that forecast to be going forward. And, you know, we were looking at hedging, some of them sort of four or five years in advance.

Yeah.

So we needed to get clear sort of information from them as much as we could. And I think it's just having that two way dialogue to explain why we needed that information and why it's so important.

Yeah. Why it actually helped you guys and in turn would help them make their lives easier.

Yeah, exactly. And, you know, and the wider group, because they, although they were, you know, quite individual divisions in different, you know, countries of the, you know, in different countries, they all form together as one group. So it was trying to understand the impact that, you know, each division was having on each other and the group as a whole.

And how was treasury structured? Because you came in, you say with Michelle, was yourself relatively new? How was it structured, you know, UK wise or globally and things with treasury and stuff.

So there was just, to start with, just myself and Michelle and then we recruited a Treasury analyst as well. So there was three of us based in the uk, and then each division had, whether they were called treasury or an accountant, but they had somebody that we would deal with in each division as well. So the three of us managed, from a group perspective, the whole of treasury with the three of us. So what we would generally do on a split between our roles. So, for example, I would manage on a day to day basis the fuel hedging and Then the Treasury analyst would look after FX and then the group treasurer would do more of the sort of strategic projects. But then as treasury, as we got more and more involved with the business, and I think that's one big shift that I saw from when I joined to when I left, that I think the divisions really respected what we were doing from a Treasury point of view and we were getting involved in a lot more from when we started. So when we were looking at bids, for example, they bid on a contract in Bahrain and we were heavily involved in that bid process and, you know, that was fantastic for us because we ended up learning a new culture, new documentation. So we looked at some Islamic financing and I think having that relationship with the finance directors and the divisions and having a really good, strong relationship helped us to be involved from the start rather than, you know, at the end and then you end up having problems at the end. And the one thing we didn't ever want to be is a Treasury Department that said, no, you can't do that. Yeah, what we want to be is at the start, be involved and then sort of guide them in the right direction that we know by the end point that we can say, yes, documentation signed off, we're all fine and it's good to go. So, you know, we were very small, lean team and I think that's a very good thing because we ended up learning so much and we were involved in so much. So yeah, we sort of had someone that did the day to day, sort of cash management and then we again we expanded the team to end up having four people in the team and.

Then you got promoted or the roles sort of graduated. What happened over time?

So I went in as Treasury Manager and then Michelle was the deputy sort of when we first started and then she got promoted to group treasurer and then I got promoted to assistant treasurer and then we ended up having like say four people in the end. And because I ended up taking on more responsibility, I took on the Bahrain project and there were some, you know, quite big projects and Michelle was a fantastic boss in the way that she let me shadow her on some of the projects. So I was constantly learning new things. And that project specifically she gave to me and said, you take this one for yourself and run the Bahrain project, which was absolutely fantastic. And at the end of that project they then promoted me to the deputy, which was brilliant and basically just meant obviously that I could cover for Michelle. So I think during that process I was obviously promoted twice while being at National Express, which I'm very Proud of because I think it's not the easiest thing to be promoted internally. But I think when I look at when I started on day one as a Treasury manager and then when I left five years later as a deputy, the amount that I learned in those five years was phenomenal, to be honest.

Kate, given your role as a group treasurer, you're a lady within treasury, we know this. And campaigns such as the Me Too campaign. And equality. And equality. And that's been very much championed by people like treasury today. And what are your thoughts in general around that?

I think the industry is changing definitely. When I started in treasury in my early 20s, it was definitely a more male oriented environment. Definitely. And I think I've certainly seen a shift in that, particularly in the more senior roles in the banks and in corporates for women. And I think I am very much proud of women in senior roles. Equality. And I think it's not just about the women issue. There's obviously various different forms of diversity and inclusion and you know, it's making sure that women who have children are supported in a way that they can do their roles as well as look after children. And, you know, men, you know, there are men obviously who take more of an active role in, you know, in parenting and need that support. So I think for corporates generally, it's just making sure you're supporting individuals, whether they're male, female, you know, or whatever age they are, trying to support them, to do a good job and just to get the right people in the right roles. So I think that's probably where I look at things and you know, certainly when I'm recruiting as well, I don't look at whether they're male or female. I just look for the right person for the role.

The right treasury person. That's fair.

Yeah.

And also you were coaching. It sounds like you expanded team wise. How was it structured in terms of coaching? Do you have more people reporting into you or how did they structure it there?

Yeah, so Michelle was the group treasurer and then as deputy, I then had two people reporting into me. So we had a Treasury analyst and a Treasury manager. So I was responsible for looking after those two members of staff and training and development. And it's something that I'm really, really keen on because, you know, I've been developed throughout my career and you know, like I said, those five years at National Express, the development I had and the opportunities I were given were fantastic. And I believe everybody should have those opportunities. So training and development was something that we were really hot on. Anyway, at National Express. And, you know, it does make you proud when you look at where people are now and how well they're doing. And, you know, you've actually, you know, helped them to get there and you've tried to develop them. Yeah. And, you know, it's a massive sense of achievement. So. Yeah.

And you say about sort of coaching and developing them, did you study at that time or how did it work with? What was the ethos around, you know, professional qualifications or, you know, other things like that?

So I started my ACT exams towards the end of being at Coventry Building Society and completed them at the start of National Express. And, like I said, I hadn't been to university, I am not an accountant, so I thought the ACT was something that, you know, I really needed to have, you know, to help me in my treasury career. And I think there were, you know, there were fantastic exams to do and I would encourage anybody to do them. And in fact, we, you know, we did at National Express. Anybody that came in as a, you know, a trainee, we were supporting them through qualifications. And I think it just gives you that, you know, overall, you know, look at what treasury is. And treasury goes into so many different areas and it's accounting, it's tax, it's legal, you know, and you also get into the operational business. And I think the exams help show you, when you're training and developing actually what different areas treasury get involved in.

And then you sort of. You moved on or you got promoted there, or what happened at National Express?

So what happened at National Express? So Michelle left the business and I filled the gap of group treasurer for around 10 months while they were recruiting. And it's one of those things. At the time, I didn't think I was quite ready to be the group treasurer. I'd been the deputy for about two years. So they recruited externally and by the time they brought somebody in was probably the time that I realized I could do the job. Yeah, yeah. And the group treasurer that came in, David Daniels, he again, he was a brilliant support. He understood that obviously I'd been there for quite some time and I'd done the role for a period of time. And he actually also said to me, you need to be looking for a group treasurer role. And, you know, luckily the Barrett job came up at just the right time, to be honest. And so I applied for the job and luckily got it. And it's a great role to have for my first group treasurer role. So I've been here now for two years.

I hope you're enjoying this week's show, I just want to interrupt briefly to invite you to be part of what we know to be the best global treasury salary survey in the world. They're bold words, I know, but it's true. We're just approaching the 500 participant mark. So it's a survey of real value, but we still need your help. All you need to do to take part is visit treasurysalary.com takes about two minutes of your time from start to finish. And as a reward for taking part, you receive a free copy of our 200 page global treasury salary survey. It's a real practical use to you, whether you're a Treasury analyst in Chicago or a global treasurer in London. We give you the numbers you need. In the simplest terms. Our survey helps you as a Treasury professional understand what you should be paid. We benchmark your treasury compensation in relation to your peers, both locally and globally. So when you are next asking your boss for that long overdue pay rise and you know you deserve one, well, you have the practical facts you need, just visit treasurysalary.com and I look forward to sending you the next copy of the survey. That's enough from me. Let's get back to the show. Okay, so you're the FTSE 100 treasurer, you got that? Barrett Developments. As I said at the beginning of the show, Barrett Developments are buildings of building group. Do you want to explain a bit more about Barrett and then your role and size and things like that?

Yeah, of course. So Barrett is the largest UK house builder. Like I said, we're a Footsie 100 company. We build around 18,000 residential homes a year and looking to expand that to 20,000 this year. Barrett is purely a UK based company, literally, or should I say Britain. So from top to bottom, we've got divisions in Scotland, literally all the way down the country. So we've got 27 different divisions. So, you know, although we're only base, we're an absolutely huge company and all those 27 divisions obviously report into the group head office. So it's really from a Treasury point of view, it's very, very interesting that the key priorities that we have, so cash management for us is a huge part of what we do on a day to day basis. So we originally had four banks looking after our cash management. We've actually just done a cash management project where we've that down to two banks and we have over 400 online banking users which are all managed within the treasury department. So, you know, it's very key if you think about what we're doing on a daily basis, you know, we're building dream homes for people and they're looking to complete, say, for example, on a Friday, which is the normal completion day. And, you know, we need to look into the bank accounts to make sure the funds are in there from the solicitors to enable them to move into their property. If that doesn't happen and there's an issue, you know, we may well have people standing outside with keys, you know, that we can't give them because we haven't seen their funds. So ensuring that, you know, the bank accounts are actively managed, they're working, you know, we've got online users ready that can get onto the platforms is really, really important for us. The cash management is a, you know, a real key focus for us.

Get bold at that level of granularity. Surely you actually do have an input to that or.

Absolutely, yeah. I mean, it's managed by my team, so I don't necessarily manage it on a daily basis. But yeah, absolutely. I mean, the cash management project was, you know, it was a really, really, really high profile key project for the company. And, you know, we have certain divisions where we move them from one bank to another and the last thing that you need to do is have any change in sort of business as usual. If we'd suddenly left them without a bank account, then people wouldn't be able to complete on their home. So it was a sort of very, very high profile project that we've literally just completed. And, you know, I think from a Treasury point of view, we've had to work with every single finance director in all of those 27 divisions and the key teams in those divisions that manage the bank account. So the key thing for us is again having that relationship with them so they understand why we're doing it. What we didn't want to do is obviously go to one of the divisions and say, right, you're just changing bank account. If they don't understand the reasonings behind it and why we're doing it, you're not really going to get the buy in from them. So it was a really key project. There's only four of us in the team, so again, quite a lean team. So as myself, a Treasury manager, a Treasury analyst and then a part time assistant. So, you know, considering we manage sort of 400, like I say, 400 online users, it's quite a small team and that's obviously just one element of the business which is, which is cash management.

And as you say, the wider business because, you know, you've got, you're obviously sourcing materials from not just the uk. You're looking at international markets or what's the international sort of focus of the role? Okay, you're a British based house builder, as you say, but surely you've got all those things and other sources of funding or what's the sort of international scope of the role?

To be honest, it's actually very small. So about 90% of our materials are sourced in the UK. So we've only got 10% outside of the UK and that's things like timber, for example. So in Scotland all of our houses are built using timber frames rather than brick and there is a certain slow growing timber that we need to be able to build those homes. And it just isn't grown in the uk, so we need to get that from elsewhere. And small things like shower screens, believe it or not, we buy them from overseas. So it is a very, very small part of the business. So like I say, it's only about 10% that's actually overseas and it's not something that Barrett will be looking to change. We are, you know, definitely focused on, on being in Britain and growing in Britain and obviously with, you know, there's a lot of focus at the moment on building 300,000 homes, which is, you know, what we need to do in the uk. So that's where our priority is and we know how to do that well. So that's where we'll sort of grow the business.

And how does that, you know, the obvious, then that brings in Brexit and everyone's talking about it and it sounds like in some ways you're slightly insulated from it, although you're still exposed to it, but it's more sort of ring fenced in that way. Would that be right?

Yeah, I mean Brexit, I think we have general or one of our general risks is around skills shortages and that's something that we are trying to tackle anyway, regardless of Brexit. So yes, Brexit will probably have an impact on it, but it's something that I think all house builders have. And that's basically, you know, when I think the younger generation now being encouraged to go to university and get qualifications and go into more office based roles rather than being bricklayers, carpenters, you know, an actual trade. And I think, you know, that's where our issue is. And whether Brexit happens or not, we're going to have the same issue. So we're doing things internally to try and support that. So we have an armed Forces program. So we try and bring people out when they're finished in the armed forces, bring them in and teach them a trade. We have a huge apprenticeship program. So we do go out and try and talk to schools, to colleges and try and get people into those trades, which I think is one of our key risks for us. So from a Brexit point of view, we don't clearly have the same issues of, you know, sort of trade as such. But like I say, I think that, you know, the skill shortages is probably one of the, you know, one of the key points we've got.

And you said you're just talking there about a bit about the future. Where do you see the future of yourselves? Where are you looking at as you grow your role or, you know, where's it going from here? So I think.

So. I think from a. So from a Barrett perspective, we are continuing to grow, or looking to grow the business organically. So we have, like I say, 27 divisions. We've just opened a new division actually in Cambridge here, and we still have capacity in some of our existing divisions to do more completions. So we will just continue to organically grow over the years. Obviously, there is still a high demand for housing and obviously we've got help to buy that ends in 2021, but I believe at the end of October in the budget that they may talk about help to buy. I can't see them taking it away. They may well modify it. So I think, you know, for us going forward, it's just continuing to grow and increase completions and increase margin. And then from a Treasury perspective, we've done quite a few projects over the last two years since I've been here, and we've got qu. A few still in the pipeline. So looking at cash forecasting is quite key. Like I say, with so many different divisions, cash forecasting can be challenging. So that's something that's probably next on the list to look at as projects. And as we're continuing to grow, we need to continue to support the divisions in land purchases. We do bonding for them, so trade finance. So we're here to support the divisions to enable them to buy pieces of land. So, you know, it's a very much, again, sort of a key relationship point of, you know, key relationships with the divisions.

And so you talk there. So I'm just thinking, financing wise, you've got these two major banks on the cash management side, or is that where you get most of your financing? Or where is it all coming from? Have you got these plans yeah, so we have.

So from a cash perspective, we have a lot of cash. So we're in the fortunate position where year end in June we had 790 million of net cash. So it's, you know, it's not a problem I've ever had before. But looking at where to put that cash is difficult. Obviously the returns at the moment, you're not really going to get a lot for your money. But obviously the key point really is counterparty risk and making sure you're spreading that risk. So we have two forms of financing. One is a revolving credit facility, which is quite a large facility of 700 million and we've got 10 banks in that facility. And the reason why we have the size of facility that we have, considering the amount of cash that we have is basically it's an assurance policy. So, you know, everybody knows a house building is cyclical. If and when, you know, it goes through another downturn, we just want to make sure that our balance sheet is in the right place to cope with that. And then we've also got a US private placement that we transacted last year of 200 million. So that's a 10 year private placement and that just basically gives us our core level of debt. So we wanted to diversify away from just having the rcf and when we did that last year, the markets were very, very strong and we got a 10 year deal done at 2.77% which is, you know, it's very, very cheap for 10 years. So that's our sort of core underlying debt. And then the rest of it comes from banks.

And looking at this role, sort of just going backstage on that, the nature of your role. So I interviewed second show Nick Taylor from Schroders and he said it's quite unusual for him. He'd been in corporate roles where looking after lots of debt and everything else and being cash rich per se or cash positive at Schroders was quite different. And he said his role as treasurer enjoyable, but in different ways. It sounds like you shifted that as well. How does that make your role as treasurer different, would you say?

Yeah, it is quite different. So, you know, a lot of our focus at the moment isn't on funding, which, you know, as a treasurer, it's a key part of your role. So we did the private placement last year and I can't see us doing, you know, any form of external financing for quite some time. So I think it's just using your skills in different ways. And you know, I'm learning things at Barrett that I would never have done at National Express, for example. And I think it's just adapting yourself to whichever sort of business you're in. And obviously, you know, like I say, if we do go through a downturn, at some point that focus will switch and, you know, we will be going out probably looking for different forms of financing. So I think in the last two years at Barrett have gone so quickly and every time a project has ended, we've. We've done a new one. So when I first joined, we did an amend and extend and I was asked to do that on my first day in the new role, which was a bit of a shock at the time, but actually got me straight into the business and into meeting all the banks and it's a great way to start a new role, to be honest. And then we went into doing a US private placement, then into a cash management project and now we're looking at cash forecasting and we're looking a little bit more internally at reporting and trade finance. So there's always different things that come up and it's always learning different skills and different things that you can add to your cv.

And when, when you. And you talk about there and bringing. You talked about the team and things and obviously you're on a podcast hosted by the treasury recruitment company, as you know.

Yep.

When you're recruiting, what is it that you look for? Because you've got that, you know, that great background. But of, you know, some people come straight from uni qualified, boom. You know, maybe do accountancy and then come into treasury, you know, they get that exposure. You've worked your way through it and then got the ACT qualifications. What do you particularly look for? Is it personality, is it. Or blend or. Where do you start?

I think it's. It's actually a mixture. I think in any team that I've ever worked in, the teams that I think do particularly well are teams that are diverse and they've got different backgrounds and they've got to where they have done in different ways, because I think you've all got different views, different ideas and I think that works really well in a team. So I try to not look for somebody that is just like me and I would look for someone that is definitely got their ACT qualification and also someone that is very just keen and eager, willing to learn, willing to be developed, wants to do new things. There's always new things in Treasury. No day is the same and it would be to a certain degree. Sometimes you could come in and not improve, not in change. And just carry on and still keep going. But it's good to come in and look at how you can improve things, how you can change things, how you can streamline things. You know, there's so much in treasury we do in spreadsheets or, you know, like, say we have 27 divisions. If everything was done on a spreadsheet, you know, it would take so long. So it's just looking for people that, you know, are willing to improve and change. I think that's probably really key for me. And personality fit, obviously, Just, you know, obviously, particularly here and where I've worked before, they're very, very small teams. So you do need everybody from, you know, from that perspective to work together as a team.

Yeah, you say that you look for complementary things and not a carbon copy of you. If we did it a different way, if someone was to look at, you know, I want a similar career to you, they want a career successful and become Footsie 100 treasurer, what advice are you going to say to give them? Obviously, we've talked about some qualifications, but what are the things that you think, looking back, you think, you know, someone comes, you know, you meet them at an event or something, or, you know, with a junior senior, whatever, how come, however you achieved your success and what should they do to do the same?

I think for me, because I haven't done the university and like I said, I'm not an accountant, I think where I needed to excel was, I suppose I looked at things, I just wanted to learn all the time, I asked questions all the time. And, you know, when, for example, my old boss, Michelle, when she was working on something, I would constantly be asking her questions and I'd say, can I come to this meeting so I can sit and shadow and listen and try and understand what's going on? And for me, it was just getting that knowledge and also from a relationship point of view, you know, using your network, so either on LinkedIn, through you Mike, or through internal people at work and, you know, trying to understand the business and seeing where treasury can help support the business and make any improvements. And it was, for me, just down to sort of hard work and dedication and I don't expect anything to be handed to me on a plate. I've always had to work really hard for where I've got to. And I think if you can just put the time and effort in to understand, to ask questions and understand the wider business, I think they're all sort of really key points. And doing your own training and development, being proactive is really key, because not all managers are exactly the same and you have to do. You have to be a self starter and you have to be the one that says, I want to do this and I want to improve, want to develop in my career and just get advice from people on how to do that. And you know, I was very lucky and very fortunate. I had a very good manager that was happy to develop me, but every time I learned something new, I just wanted to learn more and more. So, you know, I do think asking questions is key. You know, no question is stupid and it's all about knowledge and building up your skill set. Yeah.

Okay, Just as we wrap up, as you said earlier there, you've been in treasury since 99, so century. I know, and same with me, actually, that's when I first started in treasury recruiting. You know, that's the past. Looking at the present, the future, where do you see the future of Treasury? You know, you've seen it change, you know, from 20 years ago. I certainly have. You know, back when I started, I said that there was no Such thing as LinkedIn, you know, there was a. The ACT director and he picked up the phone and called people and the real world of meeting people, you know, that damn thing. But now sort of we've come into this and there's social media and all this, all that stuff. But that's within my industry. But within treasury, where do you see the future of treasury going or, you know, what developments are you thinking that are really going to impact you guys?

I think obviously Systems is one, you know, looking at things like cash management, cash forecasting, anything to do with trade. Now systems that you can get to support you with that. You know, we've used spreadsheets for a number of years. We will continue to use spreadsheets, I'm sure. But I think with, you know, the workload always seems to be increasing within treasury, which I think is a good thing because I think we're getting more and more involved in different areas of, you know, of the business and we're not just pigeonholed to raising finance. We're involved in so much more than that. So I think Systems will help us to manage the workload to ensure that we can then be out into the businesses. And something that I certainly like to do is go out into the divisions and understand the House building process, what challenges they're facing in the divisions and what we can do from a Treasury perspective to help them. So I think anything we can do from a System point of view to streamline and enable us to get out sort of on the front line and understand the business. I think that's probably where the direction of treasury is going to go.

Yeah. Integrating more with the business right on the front line.

Yeah, definitely.

Wow. Amazing. Thank you very much. And if, you know, people listen to the podcast, they want to connect with you further. What's the best way through LinkedIn or, you know, is that the best channel sort of thing just to connect with you, would you say?

Yeah, absolutely. LinkedIn's fine. Yeah, yeah.

Well, Kate, thank you very much for your time today, and I hope everyone enjoys the podcast and looks forward to the future. And, you know, well, we see you as you move on to bigger and better things in the future. Of course, you know, I know you're enjoying Barrett as you grow your career.

Thank you very much, Mark, and thank you for asking me to do the podcast.

Pleasure. Thanks very much.