Elevating Your Treasury Career: Industry Insights and Learnings with Sean O'Connor

Foreign.

To this week's Treasury Career Corner podcast where I interview treasury professionals about their treasury careers. Each and every week I talk to treasurers about how they build their careers, where they are now, where they see.

Both themselves and the treasury profession going to next.

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To my mate Greg Levin, their Senior VP of Sales. I get to ask Greg about who are Flywire and how they can help you and your treasury team with your cross border payment headaches. Just follow the link to the interview in today's show Notes. And now let's get on with the show. This week's show delighted to be joined by Sean O' Connor, the Global Treasury Director at at Indeed.com based over in Dublin, launched in 2004. Most of you will know. Indeed we certainly do. As a recruitment company we're very happy customers. No, I don't want to discount. It's all right, maybe later, I'm not sure but Indeed is an American worldwide employment website for job listings subsidiary of Recruit holdings, headquartered in Texas and Connecticut with offices throughout the world. Over 250 visitors, million visitors every month from over 60 different countries literally puts the world to work. And we know about that. I know it's a little bit of a picture indeed, but to be honest, it's a great site and we use it and very successfully continue. But enough of that stuff. Let's talk about Sean and his journey in within Treasury. We've had a pre podcast chat the other day and it was brilliant. I know Sean's a great chat so we're going to get some decent stuff from him. But we're going to go right back to the beginning of Sean's career, how he discovered the world, firstly of finance and then the wonderful world of Treasury. So Sean, over to you sir.

Hi Mike, thanks for having me. It's actually today is my fifth anniversary. I was reminded today at Indeed, so the timing is very good. Looking back on my career and how I fell into the world of Treasury, I go right back to what I studied in university. I did a business accountancy degree here in Dublin and I suppose I came out of it and like most people when you're young you probably want to still have your experiences. So I walked in financial services for a year with a plan to go traveling. So coming back from traveling it was 2007, 2008 and as we all know, it was a tricky time in the global world.

Horrible, horrendous.

Exactly. And I needed to get myself to work so I could start repaying the debt side accumulated over the previous year. I found myself landing into a role of one of the local banks here in Ireland with Bank of Ireland within Treasury. I had a friend walking there that had referred me on and it was actually a back office role. So I ended up spending a year there and to be honest, honest, I learned a lot about how corporate treasury works from a banking perspective and open my eyes to a career path that really intrigued me. Having spent a year there, I decided it was time to move on, to get more experience than just the back office. I moved on to some private banking role with LGT bank from Liechtenstein and there I was pretty much a one man treasury team for the Dublin branch they had there. So I was front, middle, back office and everything in between. I spent a number of years there managing the loan book and like I said, just expanding my experience. And at the same time I did some professional exams, I did my ACCA exams there and then I got to that kind of plateau stage with being a one man treasury team. There's only so much stuff. Exactly. There's a bit of a glass ceiling.

There and sure, just on that again, we said before the show that there are junior guys listening, they started early stages of their career and you say that was a good all round role, you throw it. But did you really know treasury there? You said you had an understanding of it or how did you discover the world of Treasury? Obviously wasn't through your degree or was it? Or how did you go? Oh, that's what treasury is about I suppose.

Look, you're exposed to it as part of your studies but yeah, I suppose not many people grow up or go to university saying I want to be a treasurer when I come out. Most of us aren't probably fully aware how corporate structures are set up and everyone knows about accountancy from an early age and you've got the economics and finance side. But I suppose I just fell into it like a lot of people do. It was forced out of necessity which ended up leading to a career that I've loved ever since. Yeah, and was really following that pattern, following my instinct at the time.

As you say you did the. And I always joke that people do a banking move and then discover the world of treasury but you did a couple of banking roles so talk us through this. As you say you touched on the Sort of Treasury accounting role for the Liechtenstein bank. But then you move to again continue the banking before more corporate treasury moves. So give us the insight there.

As I touched on earlier, that was probably around 2011, 2012, so it was still like from an economy perspective things were very tight, especially here in Dublin. We'd gone through a housing crash, there was a lot of people unemployed, there wasn't a lot of liquidity in the market. And at the time I really wanted to move into corporate treasury from that role. But there wasn't a lot of opportunity at the time and in the end I decided I needed to move on and I moved into, back into one of the Irish banks, this time with Allied Irish bank into more of a commercial banking role. So really this was looking at distressed loan books and looking at restructures. To be honest, it was a morbid element to the role because you were dealing with people that have probably lost their business due to over investment. But I suppose you learn a lot of empathy and you learn a lot of people skills in a position like that when you're dealing with people that really are investing, invested in everything that you're discussing. So having spent a couple of years there, a role came up with Xerox to get me into the corporate treasury world. And luckily enough I was able to get that job and work with a great treasury team out in Xerox here in Dublin where they have their in house bank housed and they've got maybe like from my perspective it was probably the largest corporate treasury team I've ever walked in because essentially their whole effects and cash management is managed out of Dublin for all of their global subsidiaries. So again it was more probably a kind of back to middle office role with some elements of front office on the investment side. But again I think these experiences are great because what they give you is a full understanding of how treasury works at its core. We touched on this when we chatted last time. I think it's important if you want to have a real successful career in treasury and really add value in your roles, you have to have experience, the back office, the middle office, the front office. And then it gives you that more holistic view on what needs to be done. Because how can you be expected as a Treasury leader to make decisions around the back office and the middle office and the front office if you've only ever walked in one. You need to have that kind of bird's eye view on things to make the right decisions to make value added decisions and also know the right people to Bring into your team as well. So I'd totally recommend it to everyone to gain experience to walk in different industries if possible like that and see what I mean as in on the industry side is more different types of companies staying within the treasury world but working in companies that are tech or fms. CG are old school. PLC is everything. Whatever you can get involved in, I think it's ultimately going to add more skills to your base and add more understanding on. Look, just because it was done this way here, I've learned that's not the best way to do it, that we can actually restructure or change how a process is done.

So Sean, just there we talked about Xerox and you then did Aer Lingus and indeed I want to go through those roles because again, a number of times I've recruited into the, into Ireland, Dublin in particular and things like that. A real center for treasury excellence. I know a lot of it's been driven by sometimes tax breaks and things like that, but treasury over there is massive and stuff. So talk us through maybe Xerox and Aerlings. What is what those moves for yourself if you like and what you were gaining in terms of experience.

As I touched on earlier, I moved to a really great treasury team in Xerox and I suppose it was the scope of the role there and the number of different subsidiaries that we were responsible for. But then also the people that you were able to learn off that had been there a long time, had seen it all, so knew how to troubleshoot. So learning those troubleshooting processes, you know how to find worker and shortcuts and such. So learning those skills was off. My colleagues at the time was really they're the sort of experiences that stand for you like that in the long run. And ultimately when I joined Xerox, unfortunately at the time it was only a 12 month contract, which was extended. But around the same time I was due to get married and an opportunity came up at Aer Lingus, a permanent role. And everyone in Ireland knows Aer Lingus. They're a household brand from that perspective, having been the national airline for a very long time and aviation was, it was an industry from a Treasury standpoint. I think if you can experience, get out there and experience because it's such a diverse landscape from a Treasury perspective.

So I know I have my impression of Xerox, but Xerox is an industry. What were you focusing on versus people know, airlines look up, you see a plane. How did it differ in terms of industry? What was Xerox and their drivers versus suddenly you're in aviation.

I suppose with Xerox, it was a global business, like huge multinational. They had just gone through a large acquisition of another company at the time named acs, which was of equal size and scale. So they essentially doubled their number of entities and their exposures once they closed the acquisitions. The time I spent there was a lot of it looking at how do we integrate this acquisition into the current structure, especially from a Treasury standpoint. So when you're looking at a business like Xerox, which really has that full span of it's got hardware, it's got the paper side we've got, and then you've got the whole services side, and that's where the acquisition was focused. You're looking at offsetting exposures in certain regions. They had big partnerships at the time with other large companies like Fuji and such. So it was really looking at foreign exposures, cash management. And like I said, it was my first real experience running through a global netting cycle. And when you see the number of entities that were involved from an intercompany perspective, would blow your mind if you thought about it too much. But at the end of the day, the guys had installed a process that was both effective and efficient so they could manage those individual entity exposures, the levels of activity.

And I speak to a lot of the guys at various EasyJet, the Heathrows, the different Virgins and things like Atlantic. The complexity of the treasury work and the challenges are brilliant. Really help you as a Treasury professional. What was your role like that?

Yeah, look, I loved my time at Aer Lingus really was like I touched on. It was that kind of almost full treasury exposure experience. As in we had everything from our FX exposures because at the end of the day, we were an Irish entity and everything in aviation is US dollars. We had the commodity side of things from a fuel hedging perspective. We had structured debt from the aviation leasing and financing side. So really, for me, it was just adding more str my bow. And again, I look back at the team I walked with and there was a great team there that been a lot. A couple of guys have been there a very long time. So they had seen it all. And their Lingus had just gone through an acquisition by IAG at the time. So there was that whole PMI from an implementation perspective. We start working then with the guys in iag, in ba, in Iberia, in Welling at the time. We used to meet and talk, pretty much put out each month what activity we Implant we planned on doing from a hedging perspective on a monthly basis. So you got to network and speak and learn from other treasury teams as well. Yeah, I was. I have to say, I look back very fondly at my time there, and it was as much to do with the people that I learned from as what I was exposed to at the time. From an experience perspective, you went from.

It'S simply a couple of solid Xerox, great global flows to Aer Lingus and then. Indeed. And recruitment. But obviously it's not recruitment because it is advertising for recruitment and everything else. So it's a sort of that interesting hybrid situation. When you walked in, this is preloaded question, guys, because I know this. You walked in, not an established team. It was like you were their first treasury hire. You walk in, you're like, whoa, okay, I've got some good treasury experience, but where is everyone? Oh, hang on, it's me. So what was that like for you as a. An experienced treasury professional? What did you start to do? How did it work?

I suppose the decision to move was a hard one at the time. Moving to the unknown from, you could say security. At that stage at Aer Lingus, I knew everything I needed to know. I performed the role very well. But this opportunity came up to set up a team and with a US tech company that I was aware of, but not overly aware of how they operated and what their exposures were, but ultimately I had to get in there and really get under the bonnet. You have to spend those first few months in the weeds. You have to identify what is it that I'm responsible for here. Because unfortunately you don't have somebody beside you that can ramp you up with here's all the treasury information or here's our tms if you want, we'll get you access and you can go and have a look. But it was very much, you're going to have to.

Yeah, you had to go in and.

Explain and say, look, this is what a TMS is. And they're like, what's that then?

We're only live a couple of years now with a tms. So it even took us a couple of years to get there. Mike at the start was really, look what we need to do. I said to myself, you have to set yourself those small goals and objectives and then the longer kind of term targets. And we know in treasury nothing very well, very little happens overnight. Change takes time. And it's also. It takes time because ultimately you need executive buy into anything of materiality you want to Change. But ultimately you need to have. For me, I needed to have the information, I needed to have the understanding and awareness to make a proposal. Because it's almost like that whole cash flow forecasting cliche of garbage in, garbage out. So you're only as good as the information that you have. So I really spent those four, six months really meeting as many people as I could, gathering as much data as I could, creating spreadsheets at the time for recording information, looking at historical flows, then ultimately carving out a Treasury policy that was adequate for their exposures at the time. But I suppose where the role was then, where the role is now, it's grown as much as I suppose, indeed business has grown at the time because within a year and a half we had our own in house bank set up.

So, Sean, so many people say, oh, we must have immediate know exactly where our risks are and know exactly where our cash is now. And the only way to do is to have a TMS now that needs to be in book now, now and throughout pandemic. Actually, I was asked recently to do another session and someone said, oh, let's talk about the development of treasury management systems throughout pandemic. I went, no. Why? Because it hasn't happened. It's like people, a lot of people put things on hold and you talked about earlier that you were then bringing in a Treasury management system. It was new. Why did you think that important? Is it just because everyone says you have to have one? There you go, being a little bit provocative. But because everyone said you have to have one. Yeah, we'll have to get one. What was it for you? The driver, if you like.

I could have taken that approach. I always had one in my previous roles. So can I have one here, please? But it wasn't necessarily that approach. It was really comes down to timing on what we're actually looking to use the treasury management system for. At the time we thought the timing was right because we had launched our in house bank so suddenly. Now the diversity of the flows were change. We had a lot of intercompany lending start to go live. We had the rationalization of our global account structure. So we needed somewhere to record all this information because prior to that it was on spreadsheets. And look, spreadsheets are good up to a certain time, but because of the manual nature of them, they're not resilient. Yeah, exactly. And they leave themselves, they're not scalable and they leave themselves exposed from a controls perspective. So we needed a system that essentially at the start we just Wanted a repository where we could record this data. So again, we were armed with information that we could make this decisions if we needed to do so quickly and.

Formed you brought that in. But at the same time, and let's focus a bit more on the people aspects, you had to then bring in a team. Was it just you needed someone else to share a coffee with? What was it? What did you need to then did you map out your sort of your all chart and go on them then, or how did you drive it? Again, I've got listeners that sometimes listen to the show and they're in a similar situation. Where did you start with? What was it? Actually? I need a Treasury account or how did you map out what you needed from that?

Yeah, look, I was fortunate enough at start, even though I was the first treasury hired, was a colleague who's still on my team now at the time, who had been with indeed for maybe a year as a finance admin, so somebody a graduate at the time, and she joined me on the treasury side because at the time she was responsible for maintaining kind of the bank accounts and that sort of stuff. So she had some exposure. So I was fortunate enough that she joined me at the start and was able to get me information that I needed at times, but then also work with me and obviously grow and develop herself alongside the role after a bit of time. It was clear with the launch of the In House bank that we're going to need to bring somebody in that had some experience. So that's the kind of role we pitched out, a kind of senior analyst role at the time to bring somebody in that could add. Alleviate some of the pressure on myself and my colleague at the time, but then also come in with some new ideas as well. Look, I think it's really important when hiring people. A lot of us get caught up in just looking at a CV and not looking at the potential. And I think it's really important when you bring people in that A they fit from a culture perspective and they're going to be a great member of the team or B that they have the ability to grow and develop further, but also to challenge and ask questions. I operate a very kind of flat structure. I like my teams to challenge me with ideas and look, we may not always agree and go forward with those ideas but. But I don't want them ever to be deterred to come back to me with more ideas because it's only true that type of conversation and those type of challenges that we actually refine and find out what it is we actually need. So I think it's important to go back there when you're hiring people to not just get caught up what's on the black and white on the paper in front of you and really look at the person and look at what their. I suppose how high their ceiling is and their ability to grow. And I think. And it's something we may touch on later, but I think that's why we're seeing, I suppose, the diversification of experience in treasury changing, you know, and it's changing with the times, it's changing with what the responsibilities now look like. But that's something approach I've taken from the start when bringing in new people into the team.

We'll talk about that now. I think that's you segued nicely. You can do this podcast by yourself. Sean said to me before, oh, Michael, interrupt me. But I'm just loving this. This I love to ask a guest a question. And then I said shut up and let's listen to the treasurer talk. Because it's not about Mike talks and the treasurer listens to a load of it. It's actually your treasury career and I'm fascinated by it. So that's why I shut up. But so to talk us about that, how did it. What's your driver, what's your ethos sort of thing. And because that then neatly segues in. Awesome. Into the future. How do you see it growing now as we've recovered from the events the past couple of years, pandemics and all that stuff. You and I have been through a couple of recessions and three for me, two for yourself. I'd say a couple of years younger. But where are you seeing it going now?

Yeah, look, I think if we rewind back a few years ago, I think a lot of focus was on how technology was going to change the landscape. And look, that has been the case. Roles and responsibilities have become automated. Stuff like we. We shouldn't nowadays see treasury analysts or senior analysts or a team of analysts spending the morning cutting cash positions so they can spend their afternoon then making investment or effects.

That's.

Those type of processes should be automated now. And that's rather true. Efficient bankruptcy. Having the treasury management systems or cash flow forecasting systems in place for recording all of these. But I do think what's required to be successful in treasury is changing. I think ultimately you have to have an analytical side to your personality. You have to be good. They all cliche. Be good with numbers. But I do think it's evolving more. I think we're seeing more people moving into treasury that are coming from maybe more kind of technical backgrounds as well. Like I think roles in like data scientists and business intelligence. Having those skill bases really help drive models and ultimately models influence how we make decisions. So I do think there's plenty of room within treasury teams for people coming from those more. I wouldn't say it, but those more kind of technical backgrounds. But ultimately I think such a large portion of treasury is relationship management and people management and being able to collaborate. It's one of the most important aspects of my role right now is being able to collaborate because as a treasurer you have an influence or you have an interest in so many areas of the business, be it from across the whole finance org and your colleagues in tax, in accounting, in procurement, in AP and ar. Obviously we're vested in those areas but then we look sideways. We do a lot of work with our product guys around the whole receivable side because we manage our merchant services and alternative payment methods relationships. You look across how important working with legal, working with your corporate development teams. So when you have that many stakeholders and ultimately treasury has evolved now into more of a service model, I believe you have to look at who are your internal customers and how do you serve them best and being able to manage and meet expectations. So I think collaboration and relationship management are such a cornerstone of effective kind of Treasury.

Can we just talk there, Sean? I mean I talked about it earlier in the show that indeed is a job board is where you put jobs and everything else. What I just wanted to touch on there give of it bit a big thumbs up with hard stuff through using the indeed platform and things like that. But you and I talked about this before that you're separate to the business in a positive way, so you're not influencing those decisions but you're then being that support and actually leadership function for them. Was he indeed as a business, for you as a treasurer? What are the challenges? Is it the global nature of it, the sort of 247 or what are the key things for you as a treasurer? Sitting blew my neck. I didn't. Didn't think it was going to be like this or in a good way.

Being entirely candid, I. There's not many if any complaints I have over the last five years but indeed from a business perspective. But the challenges usually are, I suppose how quickly things are expected to be turned around. I've always described indeed since I joined as like a sprinter whose body and legs are not attached and the legs are its revenue is Technology and its growth. The body is the systems, the infrastructure, and if we want to say, call finance more of it, of an operational side of the house, how we actually keep the lights on and make sure that the tax man's paid and all our bills are paid and all the revenues collected and all of those type of things. So, unfortunately, the legs have been always ahead of the body and is trying to keep up and keep pace. We're quite as far as, I wouldn't say aggressive, but we have continued growth plans and we move into new markets and it's been able then, from a Treasury standpoint, to meet the expectations of the stakeholder groups that are running the projects for new entities. Especially when you move into more challenging entities from, say, banking and documentation standpoint, where you've got to go home, get stuff uphost, sealed and you need this form signed and that form signed, and obviously you've got to mediate between the project team and the bank and trying to manage the project team's expectations and ultimately they only have you as a team to give their feedback to. So it's trying to manage those relationships, I think, are generally the more challenging because they're ultimately your colleagues and you want them, you want to meet their expectations. But sometimes because you're dealing in external markets and you're dealing with external partners, the partners don't meet the expectations. So unfortunately, you have to be the purveyor of bad news when certain timelines aren't met. So I would say that the systems, which while it was an issue at the start, the body has caught up with the legs over these last two years. The launch of a new ERP and as well as our tms. So we've definitely shortened that gap, but the legs aren't stopping, so we've got to keep pace.

It sounds like an interesting one about standardization and things like that. With again, I read through and we. You and I talked about this, the sort of how you roll out into a new country. And again, someone before we. We are going to get to the end of the show soon as the things. But before we get there, I've been asked by previous. Couple of previous guests. That'll be great. You could write a bit of a handbook from a lot of these treasurers like yourself, about how you go into a new country or a new entity or a new setup. You've come in, you've set up your new treasury team, we've talked about that. But then when you're helping the company, someone knocks at your door and says, Sean, we're going into XYZ jurisdiction or country or whatever else are you then the big gatekeeper? But you say, here's your playbook, do this please or how are you and what are you asking those entities to do?

Yeah, I think, look, it's not the most glamorous side of the job, but documentation and having playbooks, having process stocks are so important and integral for that because they do help manage expectations. Another area we've moved into recently is looking at a service catalog that is like an SLA agreement with our stakeholders so we can try manage their expectations, give them timelines that we don't want to over promise and under deliver like that. So we've got to look at, well, what's feasible and functional. But I do think it's important to have these playbooks and checklists when moving into these areas so people have an understanding of what you need to do as a team to get, be it the bank account set up or I always love this one, depending on the country, it's do you incorporate the entity force or do you open the bank account force? And then you've got to speak to legal to find out. Exactly. Or speak to your banking partners. And you can end up in a bit of a roundabout at times and ultimately spending time that you would rather be spending getting documentation done and getting over the line. But it's the fundamentals on the banking side that tend to cause the most frustrations. I think for most treasurers, it's what you expect to be standard and standardized or even digital now in this day and age. And that tend to cause the bigger headaches as opposed to bigger, more glamorous stuff like managing our exposures or even implementing a tms. It usually comes down to the basics where we we see or we have the most pain points.

We'll put your LinkedIn details in the show notes so that people can actually connect with you if it's right to have them in the network. And I know that you're doing a number of different conferences like we do as well. So you've got sessions coming up and things. People will want to connect with you that way as well. But as you reflect on all of it. And again, Sean, you and I talked about this before the show. We get a sort of variety of listenership. So we have the guys first starting, like yourself a number of years ago into treasury. So maybe a tip for them. The tips for the guys is again, when I've met some of the listeners at various conferences said, oh my. We listen to it to find out how to get my boss's job and what other people have done rather than just listening to a boss and then the war story. So what are the closing, the closing remarks or top tips for you that you would give to some of the people listening today?

Yeah, yeah. Look from a top tips perspective, what I would advise. I did some work over a year ago with a leadership coach and I'd never done anything like that at the time and I was not skeptical, but I would be a little bit of some of that stuff. But to be honest, it was one of the best things I did because what it helped was to give you focus and I think and hold yourself accountable. So what I did at the time was set myself a couple of goals over the preceding 12 months and a roadmap and mini goals on how to actually achieve those goals. So I do think by actually writing stuff down and planning it out, you're more likely to achieve your goals. I can fortunately say that I achieved both of the goals that I intended to do within the timeline I intended to do them, but it was by following that approach because I do think when you write stuff down, you are more inclined to hold yourself accountable to actually achieve those. So that would be one tip I would give people to actually think about what you actually want and what your goals are and what's, I suppose, realistic as well. It's all good to aim high, but we have to be realistically high as well. The second point, and it was an area I touched on earlier, I would say, is to gain experience. I think some people know that they're maybe in a role within an organization that maybe they've plateaued and like dependent. Some corporate treasury teams are pretty large, so just sideway moves, but some are. Most are only getting smaller. So you've got to look well what's going to be best. For me, it's not always that the grass is always green on the other side, but it's going to potentially arm you with more experience, more knowledge and more understanding of what you're going to do. I more say because I think some people maybe hang on too long somewhere and knowing that maybe the opportunity is going to be there and it may make them a bit stagnant. So go and experience other roles and sometimes it might not be right. But as Mike, the Treasury market is quite liquid and there's plenty of opportunities there in a lot of great businesses and a lot of great treasury teams. And in some instances, like my own, moving into a Treasury team where there is no treasury team and you've got to put the foundations in place and those experiences stand for you going forward. So I would encourage people, they would be. My two tips really is figure out what it is you want and set yourself goals. Let them be high, but let them be realistic and set yourselves two, maybe three goals and then break them down. And the second point would be is don't be afraid of new experiences.

Really Sean, I knew it'd be like this. We had a pre podcast call that went on for ages and we eventually had to finish because just great. And I can't wait to see you as we've said before in real life in, in flesh and blood and everything else and long may it continue so and Google up with the rest of it and and can't wait for to see you soon, sir.

Great. I appreciate it Mike, thanks for having me. It's been a pleasure.

Thanks very much.

So welcome back to this week's Treasury Career Corner. You've heard the amazing Sean o' Connor. When we last spoke, Sean was at Indeed that amazing job platform. We've used it, we love it. But Sean had been there at that Stage I think five years back in 2021, we're recording this now in 2024. A couple of years later, things have changed, moved on. I'll let Shaun do the talking but Sean, talk us through what happened next for you and then we'll dive into actually you. You took some of your own advice with your roadmap and stuff but over to you sir.

Thanks Mike and thanks for having me back. It's great to chat again. Back in September last year, so September 2023 I moved to MongoDB. So MongoDB are, I suppose it's a challenging product to des to us non tech people.

Yeah.

But it's very much software for software developers so it's used in the back end to support applications and websites. MongoDB have been on a really interesting journey over the last number of years where they have gone through some hypergrowth over recent years and they made the decision that they needed to bring in their first treasury hire. And given I'd gone through a similar journey at my time and indeed as being there for treasury hire, I really seen the opportunity as something I wanted to to grab a boat hands and to really apply the lessons and learnings of what I did in my previous role with Indeed and apply them in a new environment. It's not all apples with apples so there are nuances to each business. But yeah, the opportunity to take those earnings and Apply them somewhere new work with new personalities. There's elements of the role that are new to me as well. So there has to be a stretch there for your own progression as well. So yeah so seven plus months in now and I'm really enjoying the the.

Journey so far and we were talking, I reviewed our previous chat which people have just heard and you talked about going into and I said about new treasury regions in this case a new treasury role and your first treasury you said documentation SLA that was in your toolkit. What have you brought to these guys? Exactly the same or what's it been like?

Yeah, look just there has been an element of that given again seven months in which in human years isn't that long but I suppose in tech dog years I'm no longer a new person so it's. But yeah it still takes you time especially when you're on your own to force look at what do we want to bifurcate from roles and responsibilities in into me and ultimately my team as the team will grow to also what's the current status quo. So what are we working with and what I would say a big thing with MongoDB is even though it's not wouldn't be at the revenue levels of where indeed was when I moved on, its geography is huge. So we're looking at about 30 different countries, some new countries for me to do business in. So parts of Asia in countries like China, Taiwan, Korea so their new markets Argentina in the Latam regions, Israel and uae. So there's been some new markets for me to get comfortable with and to learn but ultimately it's. I think I touched on this in the original forecast conversation. It's ultimately getting your cash management structures right from a Treasury perspective is what sets you up for success right now at MongoDB. That's the force protocol for me our cash management structure. It isn't that it's bad, it's. But it's quite standalone so it's a lot of manual kind of processes involved in short term forecasting and funding exercises which ultimately add risk because we've got to ensure. I suppose it's like Treasury 101 ensuring that you have the right amount of money in the right bank account, in the right currency at the right time.

Yeah.

And if you're having to do that manually or if the team are having to do that manually, you're adding risk just from ensuring that the funds are available. And generally when the fire drills happen it's when payroll is due to be paid. And again I Think it's something I touched on last time we spoke. Payroll is one, if not the most important payment we make every month. So ensuring that our employees aren't impacted in these regions and ensuring that there's adequate local working capital is. It's. It's essential. Yeah, exactly. And so looking at how we can automate processes, how we can optimize our cash management structures has been a big part of the, the last few months. So working with our banking partners, putting a plan in place and then looking to execute on that plan. So at the same time, MongoDB had been looking to hire a VP of Tax. Not like when I joined and luckily enough we had someone join us back in January. So waiting on that person to come on board as Mike Tax and Treasury go hand in hand, especially when we look at cash management structures and transfer pricing and local tax requirements, depending on the geographies that you're involved in. So ensuring that everyone's comfortable with that, so having to wait for that person to get on board and allow them to ramp up and then to start having those conversations around what's the right fit for MongoDB.

Yeah, for the group. And you talked there, you touched on recruiting and things and obviously that's been front of mind for yourself recently. I know that you'd been out there using the wonderful LinkedIn. I've talked to a couple of clients recently about the fact that they were saying, we went on LinkedIn now it was good because you had a clear picture of what you wanted, but they were quite surprised. They were just getting quite random people applying and they were also getting. They said, why is this? I said, because LinkedIn is a general platform with treasury. It's a very specific niche and you're looking for a person that's making a step in their treasury career and people are getting a step in their treasure career. Not all the time are looking on LinkedIn that day. So that was one of the things. What was your experience of it and how did you see this front end with being indeed a job, job company and what was it like for you?

Yeah, look, I think that is always a challenge and going back to my time and indeed I know that was always a, a big KPI. There was two sides of it. On the recruitment side, there was what they call the black hole and that's where we have applicants applying and never hearing back from hiring managers or from the companies that are hiring. And then the other side of it is it's maintaining the quality of applicant. So ensuring that the qualified applicants are actually applying for the role. Look, we. I had some applicants like that, same people applying from outside of the regions where you're looking to hire that may need visa applications and there's nothing like that called out inspects. We have, I suppose, similar to a lot of tech companies as well, an internal recruitment team who act as that filter. So I don't have to go and review every single CV that comes in saying that. That I did review every CV that comes right in because I am a bit, I wouldn't say a control freak, but I know in the past in, in previous roles when I was hiring, I've hired candidates that weren't forward to me, that were rejected by the manager.

Okay.

Because I suppose it's the reason why people like you are successful. Mike, in so far that treasury is quite a niche market and a lot of the recruitment team and it's no slide at them, but they're more generalists and being able to identify someone that's a good fit for a role, especially if it's a nuanced role within Treasury. It's not just treasury analyst or treasury manager kind of role where you. You can see it straight away on a cv. But if it's a nuanced role within treasury, you have to look beyond just a person's job titles, you have to look into what they were doing and how that fits. So because of that and because of how successfully that worked for me in the past by looking beyond just what's been referred into me, I did that myself for this role as well. So I did review each CV that came in and each applicant. And yeah, it's a tricky one when you're using platforms like LinkedIn, you don't have control on the applicants and some people are right to try throw their hat in if it's not an exact match to their experience because they're looking to make that transition. I think some people are. I have to watch my tongue here, but I may be just throwing enough stuff at the wall, hoping someone stick. They're just looking for a move and they're sometimes attracted to companies more so than roles.

Yeah, well, Sean, I'll jump in there and we can I. Well, I will jump in. And the reason being, I tried to explain again to this client, I said, it's not that there's anything against you, it's just they want to leave where they are and that could be an unhappy situation there. They're not happy in their role, they're not getting paid enough, maybe they're not working with their boss very well. They're looking for an exit. They're not necessarily looking for an entrance to join you where whereas, and, and also I love that nuance thing as well where you talked about because treasury is specialist and then it becomes even more specialist when actually I need some middle office experience that's done this within financial risk management. You're like, it's got narrow and then you try and explain that to an HR person, they're still going okay and risk which area and they, you know, they're glazing. But that's what you and I have done for 20 plus years. So that's where. And that's where why we exist as well but without being a suspect. But as you say, you and also I think you'd had some, you were talking about some finance guys that come from banking or other things. How did, what advices were you giving those guys?

Yeah, well that's the other thing is that I think when people go out of their way like I had candidates contact me directly that we're looking to apply for the role say through LinkedIn and such like that. And they were asking me about the role and if they were and, and some of these candidates, it was clear that they were looking to make the transition be it from maybe treasury operations in financial services into like corporate treasury. And but both roles are very different to our nuance point that we touched on there earlier. So I think it's important for people, I think if you're looking to make that move or you're looking to get into corporate treasury where you've already worked in other roles. So you're not just a grad looking to get in at a very junior level. Like my tip would be to look at the large corporates that have, have large legacy and treasury teams. So locally in Ireland you've got companies. I did it and I was fortunate enough to get a role in Xerox have been having an established treasury function and a large in house bank here in Dublin for a very long time. But getting into a company like that that you may be taking a side step or a little step back, you're going to get so much exposure to what best practices. Look, you're gonna, you're gonna see how a corporate Treasury, a large corporate treasury function works and ultimately you're gonna work with people that have experience that you can learn from and you're going to be exposed to tasks and responsibilities and see how a big treasury machine works that it's gonna, it's gonna aid you then when you want to continue on in your career and then make the next step and I found that's what worked very well for me to get that four step just toe into the door in, in the corporate treasury world and taking that approach it's, I'm not going to say it's going to work for everybody but if you take that approach and you make smart decisions with your career and set yourself realistic expectations if you're moving from one industry into treasury or you're moving, I suppose corporate I, I see a, I'm like I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on it but like to me corporate treasury, regardless of the industry obviously there are certain nuances. If you're in pharma or aviation and you're going to have different risks to manage versus just a tech company per se to financial services and the banking side of treasury they're very, to me they're two different career paths now there's correlation and understanding there but they are very different. So sometimes people struggle to make the transition from one to the other because it's almost like that old adage of when you were younger trying to go get into the nightclub and you're told regulars only and you're like how do I become a regular if I, if you never let me in? So similar for people experience.

Yeah, yeah.

How, yeah, getting that four step in. So you just maybe have to look at that those, I wouldn't say lower level getting into a larger function and you're going to see a lot more while a, a lot of companies that say at the size of MongoDB like I'm one of one right now, now I'll be one of two at the end of the month fortunately enough because I have someone coming in But a lot of other newer treasury teams are quite small compared to those larger legacy large corporations where you're going to get to see a lot more and it's gonna, I, I personally think it, it just gives you that kind of overview of what good looks like.

Yeah. And sure you invited me to once and that's oh it's great. I'd never get invited to speak on my own show. There was recruitment but the, and the answer is, and I've answered this so many times it's just so lovely to be able to speak on my own show and actually directly an question because I get a number of people come to me and they say oh I want to get into corporate treasury but maybe it's later in their careers. And I say look, you've Doing cash management in a bank.

Right.

And they're like, yeah. And I said, and you're way up this very narrow pillar. I said everything about cash management, they're like, yeah. I said, when did you last implement a Treasury management system? I haven't. Okay, okay, we have to come back down the pillar and do that. Or when did you last do foreign exchange? Not just cash and APIs and stuff.

Stuff.

I know that's somebody else's. Oh, hang on. When did you last do this? When did you last coach a member of staff? Actually, no, and that's one of the key things that. The breadth. Exactly. You've talked to there, Sean, that corporate treasurers like yourself are brilliant managers.

Right.

The way across the function. You know so much about so many different areas. And. Yeah, and then you go to, as you said before, you were talking to one of your banks and things like that. You talk to them and if you want some expertise about this country in Asia Pacific, you go to that specialist about that level. And then if they would say, oh, can I come work for you? Say, yeah, but I need you to know about XYZ countries in Europe. Oh, no, I haven't covered that for five, six years. Yeah, but that's what I need now. I need this breadth of experience, not this narrow. And it's not a criticism because the fact is they're brilliant at what they do within their niche and so they've got to come down. And again, sometimes I'll get a CV from a banking person. Oh, I want to get to corporate treasure, be a corporate treasurer. I'm like. And I'll ask them about these other questions and they say, how do I say you can drop down and you become a senior treasury manager or deputy treasurer? And gay, you've got a lot. Maybe they've got a wider experience, but generally, then they go, oh, I don't want to take that cut in salary. I'm like, well, okay, that's your choice, me saying you're approaching me. And I'm just. Just explaining the practical way of the world, really. So, yeah, it. And it's challenging because you want to give those guys advice. You want to be, you know, honest.

About it as well.

But I think you answered it very well as well there.

And look, I think, don't get me wrong, there's plenty of examples of bankers making a direct move into corporate treasury at very senior levels across corporates, but you'll probably tend to find that a lot of those corporates are almost have some kind of financial services element. To them like that. Be if they're a. A payments company or if they. They've got a very maybe detailed and debt portfolio that needs to be managed. So they're looking at that sort of stuff. Or it's aviation, leasing, which to me is finance. Is financial services more than corporate treasury, but it may be viewed as corporate treasury by some people and that's why they want to get in there. So industries like that. The other thing I'd say is, and I'm sure you, you see this as well Mike, is that. That does like especially here in Dublin at the moment, there's a lot of liquidity in the market at that kind of analyst, senior analyst, specialist level.

Yeah.

So there's a lot of. There's a lot of competition. There's a lot of companies looking to hire the same people. So there's opportunities in. At that. At those levels for people to make that transition. And to your point around salary and comp. To be honest, the levels are very competitive at the moment. Those roles compared to when I was an analyst myself. And I see what expectations analysts and senior analysts have right now. I'm thinking, I know we've had inflation, but yeah, it's definitely a competitive market right now and it's. It's a market that people with the right experience have options there and then ultimately. But there's only so much liquidity in that market that they're going to have. Companies are going to have to look for their field and just straight corporate. So they're going to have to. To look at people maybe on the banking or financial services side and look at tempting them to cross over as well into the corporate world. Again, it's getting the levels right and setting your own expectations I think is very important.

Amazing. You've been very kind. Thank you for rejoining us on the show. We're gonna.

What the.

You've given some takeaways there, so given some golden value. But we're put your LinkedIn details in the show notes a second time if you like. And the takeaways as we wrap up today's show that you think, think anyone listening today should be putting in there.

Yeah, look, I think if anyone. If it's people considering moves and next career steps, I, I think to touch on again what I mentioned already, I think set yourself realistic expectations. If you're looking at making that move. Look beyond just what the current role and title is. Look at the company, look at their growth trajectory and look at the opportunities it may offer. Just because you move companies doesn't mean it's forever. So you can go as part of a two, three, four year plan, go get the experience which ultimately sets you up for the next move. So look beyond just a here and now and, and really just people just have to stick at it. It's like everything in, in life you have to face some adverse adversity and maybe some rejection that you're not happy about. But ultimately it's these experiences that build us and, and set us up for success.

We're grateful for your time again, Sean. Thank you for this and look forward to, as I said on the last one, we still need to catch up, get in the same place in the same time. But yeah, looking forward to seeing you soon.

Thanks, Mike. Pleasure as always.

Thanks for tuning in to another great episode. You really enjoy it. Thank you very much. You make it worthwhile us recording them with these amazing treasury professionals right the way across the world from the us, across the uk, across Europe. And there's lots more exciting guests to come and lots more live events. We love delivering this content. We get asked now, is this what you do? Do you just do content? Do you just know? The reason we do the content is to get to know you guys, to give you back the tips for success, if you like. But we're here to help you hire someone. If you need to recruit, call us. Because at our heart, we are treasury recruitment company. That's how we pay the bills, that's how we pay for the podcast and that's what we're passionate about. We hear from you at events and things. Can we also help you find your next great role? Can we help you hire? The answer is yes, that's exactly what we do. Yes, we do our treasury salary survey@treasurysalary.com that helps us know exactly how to benchmark not only your salary, but also when you're looking to hire. We know exactly what the market is paying. Wherever you might be, whether it's the us, UK or Europe, we want to make sure that we are the best informed, that we're not just finger in the air. We always know. If you want to hire the best in treasury, don't hesitate to contact us. Go onto the website treasuryrecruitment.com or in the US, you can contact Joe Grabowski Europe, Contact the lovely Katie. For more senior roles and roles across the uk, reach out and contact me or drop any of us an email. Joe@treasuryrecruitment.com Katie at treasuryrecruitment.com or Mike at treasuryrecruitment.com. let us help you make the hiring process as amazingly seamless and easy as our podcasts are to listen to. Thanks for your amazing support and looking forward to forward to seeing you at either an event or a conference very soon. Or just give me a call. Let's help you find the next role or recruit the next Treasury Professional. All right, until next week, Many thanks.