Embracing Change and Trying New Things in Treasury with Mattijn Bak

Welcome to this week's Treasury Career Corner podcast where I interview treasury professionals about their treasury careers. Each and every week I talk to them about how they build their careers, where they are now, where they see both themselves and the treasury profession going to next. Let's get on with the show. In this week's show I'm drawn by Martijn Bach, the group treasurer at Veon Food Group headquarters in the Netherlands. Veon Food Group are an international meat producer with production locations in Netherlands and Germany, offices worldwide. Annual revenues over 5 billion making them one of the world's top food and beverage companies. Veon supply customers home markets and across Europe and the rest of the world. And we had a really good pre podcast call, Martin and I and one of the key things we talked about how this Covid crisis had been and effect on the world of supply chain. So we'll get into that a little bit later in the show but as always we want to hear about Martin's history and how you got started in your career. And I know that you started with a bit of a law background to then go into banking and then discover the world of Treasury. So bit of a an interesting start there sir. And as always over to you.

Good afternoon Mike. Like you said, I started studying law and during my law studies I also worked a little bit in law practice. Well for me it's personal of course it was not dynamic enough and then a friend of mine arranged an interview with ING bank and I sort of landed the traineeship there, got to see all the departments and at the end made the decision to join the treasury cash management department of ING bank where I worked for a few years and I enjoyed but few years I got the opportunity to change seats or places with and join a Treasury department of Friesland Campina which is a, I guess one of the larger, I think top three in the world dairy companies.

You say you got the chance to sort of chain. You had really good cash management treasury background within the bank but then what tempted you to treasury as it such.

When working for a bank you tend to believe that what you are selling is the best product there is out there. You don't know what the implication is of your sale and the next steps in the chain are known to you and then it's interesting to see what's more out there. If you're on the treasury side of the business you to speak to all these consultants and banks and they have all different palettes of solutions for a similar problem. Yeah, that's just a different view on.

Things talk me through then the role that you got at Friesland and what was that like as you start in Treasury, a corporate treasury, as it were.

I started partly as project manager so one of the projects was implementing a big international cash pool for instance. And I also was. Because they have an extremely international footprint, so I got to travel quite a lot because they were from a financial point of view, extremely decentralized, but they did not have the treasury knowledge or experience. So for instance they have. In Malaysia they have a company with a few thousand people and of course a cfo. But the CFO does not know anything about how this should be financed and how the cash management works and fx. At the start I got the job to travel a lot and help these people set up a decent cash management, FX management and finance the company. I was sort of an internal banker because you got to learn a lot of cultures, a lot of banks and bank think culture. That's fantastic.

And the role itself within the group, again you've been within food service or food groups and things for a number of. We'll bring that out as well with your latest role and things like that. What was that like in. In terms of some people they're just within the services company so you can't really touch the product and everything else. Did you get really involved in that, get to know some of the business?

Yes, although I do think that treasury has evolved the last few years more to a business partner than it used to be. In my opinion it was more decentralized and more of a headquarter department than it's now. At least the way we do it now that is of course different. But yes, of course when you start in the company you need to learn the business. Otherwise it's difficult to assess where you can add value. So yeah, I would always advise people who started a new company to make a tour through the company. You get to learn all the different traits and then it's easier to add value also from a headquarter point of view.

So you did that role or a couple of roles there and then sort of grew your career and then joined. How do you say, Nutrico, Is that right?

Yeah, it's. It's also an agriculture company. So from the dairy I went to the feed. Animal feed. Indeed. My last job at Friesland Campina was corporate finance manager. And then so I did their project management, cash management and financing the company. And then within Nutraco I became the treasury manager, sort of an assistant treasurer, which was a broader function and also interesting because Nutraco also has an international footprint on the stock exchange. It used to be on the stock exchange, now it's not anymore. What was already, I think, with the treasury at a quite high level. So it was more difficult to really add value, I think.

And then with the role there, you also made international moves and things like that. Or talk us through that.

Yeah. In Draco, the holding company was with not many people, so you got to know all the. About 60 people in the holding, whereas it was a big company with 4 billion turnover. I think so. And then every now and then we did an acquisition and then if you're close to the fire, they gave me the opportunity to join the acquisition as a finance director and to see and experience a new culture and a bigger finance job. So I was responsible for implementing the acquired company, but then hr, but also the accounting and Imant and what have you. So it was extremely learnful year, especially the first. First year, I think. And I would always do that again, although I did not stay in a function as a finance manager or CFO or finance director, because for me it's. The repetitive part of the job is not interesting enough. The rest of the experience was extremely learnful. Also, I think I became a better business partner because I now know how a finance manager thinks, what he has to do, what his priorities are and what not. Of course. And what experience they might have and what experience they might not have. So that makes it easier to reach out to him and connect. That's extremely important because you're always seen as a headquarter function which is extremely specialized with a sort of language not most people understand. And then you will only connect if you start talking to people and listening to them.

And let's just explain again for the listeners, because we sort of whiz past that bit, but actually you'd relocated and were actually based in Vietnam, is that right?

Yeah. And what you meant.

Yes. So what was that like culturally as well, sort of came in from a Treasury perspective. This is what I'm looking at. Treasury finance, you say it was people now listening back with. Oh, right. Okay. So somewhat might get into the business and have to move from the Netherlands to France or to Spain or something like, you know, or something relatively local. Might be differences and things you were moving the other side of the world, you know, what was that like?

There's also a huge cultural gap if you move to France and it might even be more difficult. But I would recommend that experience to everybody. I think it makes you understand. Does not always your point of view is not the only point of view. And that's something. I think the experience of the business is that people from head office like treasury, but also control and what have you, and communications, they tend to think that their story is the truth. And people in business always struggle to understand why they think that is the case. And if you're out there on your own, because I was the only Dutchman in a company of 500 people, well, two French people, by the way, eating lunch and people start talking Vietnamese only. So it sometimes can be a little bit lonely. But nevertheless, you have to take initiative, you have to change things, you have to convince people because it's their country, their company, very useful experience.

You had that experience out there in the business and everything else, and then you returned back to the Netherlands and things with that transition. What was it like transitioning back?

What I did wrong, and I think that's a good tip for most expats, is that I forgot to connect with the head office. So I was there in Vietnam for, what was it, just over two years. In the meantime, the CEO changed, a lot of other management positions changed. I think you have to connect to these people now and then more regular than not regular if you want your career to advance. Because in my position, I was someone they stopped knowing when I came back. And then it's difficult for the next step in your career. And I want to go back to Treasury. After two years in finance, there was no place in treasury within New Zealand, so there was no issue. It was more my problem than the company's problem. And then I left for a retailer.

So what would you have done differently? Reflecting back on that, you know, if someone again is in similar situation, they've made a transition, they're listening to this, the other side of the world, wherever it might be, and they. They've got ahead of this. How would you go about it, you know, looking maybe just reflecting on that. Is that to sort of travel back some sometimes and try and remake connections or how would you do it?

The times have changed, of course, a little bit, because nowadays you can easily set up a teams meeting and have a coffee with the new CFO for 15 minutes. So now and then, or just have a chat with teams or zoom or what have you, but definitely do that. Yeah, I would travel more. Yeah. Stay more connected to the senior management in the whole day. Yeah.

Try and keep connected with those guys. You then sort of transition back in and, you know, before you then made a move to, well, this other group, plus retail and things like that. What was that like? Or just bring us back to Europe if you like.

I did not really like working for a retailer, to be honest.

Okay.

But that's something personal, I think for me, treasury job has to be for a company with an international footprint, preferably with some sort of distress, so that it should not be already at an extremely high level and easy access to liquidity. And everything is working perfect for me. I like digging into issues and then adding value to the business. So that's why I think I was not the best fit for retailer. Then I moved to Vihaan and that was something, of course, totally different. They were a company in distress, just sold one of their profit making units, business units or divisions to another American company and then we were left with pork and beef division and a small food service division which were, well, hardly.

Making any money, just going back a stage. When you were making that move, what then as you said, you came in and I remember we discussed this briefly sort of thing before that you came in and it was a tough time for the group. Why join a company like that? Surely it's. You want to join a company that's successful and no problems and everything, especially with a new job and everything else. Or did you think, do you know what, this is a great challenge? Or what was the sort of thinking from yourself?

Great challenge. And I was sure that with my experience I could add immediate value. Yeah, there was not much when I started. There was all the systems were outdated, so there was no transparency of funds. There was all different intercompany relations which were not really documented. And also the finance facility was only extended for one year, so there was an immediate liquidity issue coming up. You have to like it, of course, but that is the exact moment where you can earn your spot, your spot at the table and add value to it, to the business.

Yeah, we talked about this, that you did a series of different projects. So was there when you joined, was there a real checklist of stuff to go through or, you know, was it just you looking at it saying, right, these are the immediate problems to deal with, let's firefight, put these fires out. Or you know, what was the ethos when you arrived?

There was no to do list. As a treasurer, you want to have transparency of funds. So you want to know what do I have available and when? Which is of course I think the top of the list of every treasurer. And we had some system issues were not serviced, we did not have a forecast. There was no decent. Yeah, there was a Treasury management system was Outdated intercompany finance was not arranged.

So how did you choose it then? What was the methodology behind that? You know, again, there'll be listeners today who have walked into a similar situation.

Or if you want to move quickly, then you don't have the time to do an academic research program or project. So you move with what you know and you trust some of the consultants you know and go from there. So I hired one or two consultants and made everything transparent and they did not too much research, to be honest, but relied a lot on benchmarking. Yeah. So be experience of peers. So talk to them, reach out to them, listen. What is the best system to do this, this, do that and then make quick decisions.

If you could talk us through beyond as a group. So I know that I, you know, don't want to run out of time. I want to talk to you about, you know, how you've reacted to the pandemic and everything else and how it's affect you as a business, but it's just overall. So you're an international meat company, so talk us through that, if you would, and how that, you know, impacts on Treasury.

That's the way we sell to other meat producers and retailers. We finance part of the supply chain. I have book on in my office, which has been written by a research lady who has followed one pig and what products are made of this one pig and where it was sold. And this is over 600 pages. It's unbelievable what the pig has, what it's used for. But in the end, to finish the story is that you buy a pig for say €100 and then your EBITDA margin is one or two euro, so you earn on the last few sales. So it's extremely difficult to make money in the slaughtering business.

We discussed before that that knowing where it is in the supply chain and that tracking of it, that's a relatively new thing if you like, but you've done it before. But now the technology is caught up and how exciting it is, you know, why is that important to you guys? The veracity of that supply chain for.

A future point of view. We and Viond really believe in sustainability and animal welfare and track and traceability. And I think that's what you're referring to. One of the projects we're doing now is indeed, if you buy a piece of meat in the supermarket, there's a barcode and then you can see where the meat has been, where the pig or cow has, what he has eaten, etc. Etc. So we tend to focus less on volume for the future and more on quality and transparency and building balance changes, we call it so that in the chain from feeds to the retailers work together and have a very animal friendly, healthy product.

Yeah. Next. And. Well, we talked about this. Everyone's bored of the pandemic. However, whether we are or not, that was a massive shift for you guys because a lot of it came out of China and there was lots of different things with you.