Embracing Education, New Tech, and the Treasury Community with Keith Lynch

Foreign welcome to this week's Treasury Career Corner podcast where I interview treasury professionals about their treasury careers. Each and every week I talk to them about how they build their careers, where they are now, where they see both themselves and the treasury profession going to next. Let's get on with the show. This week's show joined by Keith lynch, treasury consultant at KPMG in Ireland. Formed in 87, many of you will know but KPMG is one of a global network of professional firms alongside many others like PwC, Deloitte, EY, you know, they're one of the top, you know, audit, tax, treasury advisory services companies in the world. You can find them out online, you'll see the guys out there satisfied. But Keith, today, what we're going to do, he's had many, many years of started in banking, then went through corporate treasury, currently with kpmg and we're going to go right the way through his career and you know, lots of other areas to cover today. Keith, take us back to the beginning and you know, your career to date, how you first got started in finance, banking, treasury and then bring us up to date today if you would.

Over to you sir, Just going, stepping back I suppose I've been the treasury sphere and the environment for the last 22 years or so and ultimately I fell into treasury by accident. It was when I school I wanted to get into computer science and I went and studied an honours degree in computer science but as it happened, by choice. I studied at Trinity College by night and I needed to find a job and that job was in the banking environment, treasury and International at a bank called National Irish bank back then. And I loved it, I loved the banking environment, I loved working in back office, I loved interacting with front office, middle office and the mechanics of how a bank operated and understanding how customers interacted with a bank. So that was my first sampling of banking and treasury and as I said it was by pure accident and my love grew from that point onwards but obviously I had to study and continue on and I qualified with my honours degree in computer science which had I suppose an economical aspect to it. So there was accounting, there was a business study aspect to it, statistical analysis aspect to my studies as well. So it was wasn't specifically or wholly dedicated towards the IT element. So my love for banking as I said and treasury grew from there.

So given that you did computer science and you were very much technical but then at the same time you were doing, you had your day job, you know, working within corporate treasury, within the bank, but then you made some moves, you know, so you discovered and understood sort of back and middle office treasury and then you made a move or describe that for. You've got listeners there who are probably in a similar situation saying, well, how do I make that move? Actually that sounds great, you know, let's copy him. But how did you achieve that? You know, maybe talk us through that.

Yeah. And again, I moved from National Irish bank at that point in time into Citi and it was a new unique offering at that point in time, an outsourced treasury product offering. JP Morgan had it in Dublin, Citi had it in Dublin, ABN a number of banks. So Dublin, as you know, was a center for treasury activity. Again, it was a role that was advertised very appetizing. For me it was something quite different as in moving from pure banking into an outsourced offering. Essentially we were sitting in the seat of the client, we were running their treasury function for them and we were running the treasury function for big hitting names globally that had an operation in Dublin. And that was, I suppose you had mentioned it earlier on, it was a midway point between banking and pure corporate treasury. And that's essentially where I did learn my trade, you know, and how I ended up in pure corporate, which was Doosan at that point in time in terms of setting up a Treasury function.

Well, just before you made that move to Doosan, and I understand it because I recruited a number of people out of the, you know, a very good friend of ours, Andy, who's now Gazprom, we will definitely get him on the show. I've been, you know, one day, it's take me two and a half years, I will get that man on the show. He's got some great stories to tell. It's probably, that's what he's worried about, that, that's probably why. But being an outsourced treasury, you were, I said it in some ways, you know, a joke with people back at the time, you know, above your desk you'd have dealer for Caterpillar, dealer for this. How did you manage if you like being the dealer for your corporate client as such, but you're actually working for a bank and obviously there's not a conflict, but there's a sort of tension between the two. Was it just simply that you could get them the best pricing and so that was okay or how did you do it? Because I know that there were some guidelines and things.

Yeah, definitely. You know, we were just strict governance in terms of how we operated across multiple clients. So we had an operating Procedure that we would have drafted and finalized and agreed with the organizations in question. So that was our guide document. And those organizations you mentioned around pricing, if we had a trade to execute for a particular organization, they had their own relationship bank. So that doesn't mean because we're a city, a working for city, that doesn't mean the trade goes to city. We have Chinese walls, we have the various governance around us. But we're following that operating procedure strictly to ensure that client in question gets the best service and the proper service. Just to add to that, all clients operate in a different manner. So I would have managed a team of five or six, what we call treasury analysts or senior treasury analysts that will be managing the cash, running the back office. And then we would also have our own trading room as well, our own front office. And they all operated differently. So one operating procedure would differ from organization to organization. And that was essentially what helped the likes of me and you mentioned Andy Bishop and a few others that you know yourself that helped us get that nice blend of, of how one treasury function operates against another.

Yeah, it was like an early training ground because then, you know, I remember placing some of you guys into roles and they were like, well, they're coming from a bank. I went, they are, but not what I said. They've been acting as the treasury dealer for this company. This company, this company. Oh wow. So they really know. And I said one day they have to deal with. And every company as you said, had different challenges. You know, some would be debt laden, some would be catch rich, you know, and the way they operated. But you were getting frontline experience. So that, that was really good for a period. But then obviously things were changing in the Irish market. So you then made a move or how did it come about?

So I think yeah, a role was advertised at Doosan and it was an organization that I wasn't familiar at all with at all. It was South Korean conglomerate, had acquired a big business called Bobcat from Ingersoll rand back in 2007. And it was at that point that the role was advertised. I came board then in March 2008 and set up the treasury function in the EMEA and was so appetizing for me. It had given me a chance to build from the ground up. And that's what I did over the course of the 11 years that I was there. And it's thoroughly enjoyable.

Yeah. And when you came into that role, what was the shape of Treasury? You were sort of, it was a newly formed treasury but an established company. So There were some treasury things in there and again, I'm asking this on behalf, you know, if I'm listening today, so. Well, actually I'm in a similar situation. You know, I've just accepted a role there. I'm going to go there. Wow, that sounds familiar. What, what would you say, you know, sometimes on the podcast, the checklist, when you walk in the door or how was it laid out for you and was it like that? You know, what was it like? What, what were the first things you would, you know, you were doing when you were setting up sort of thing?

From my standpoint, it was to manage a transition away from the company that we had acquired from. So we wanted to disconnect in a way, establish our own functionality, our own independence in terms of how we operated, standardize all of our processes from simple things like payment functionality to bank relationships to our own credit lines. Bringing innovation to the table in terms of having good control and visibility around our cash on a global basis. Simple things that just needed to be bedd down at that point in time. They were, I suppose, the low hanging fruit. And then you build upon that going forward. Once you have a solid formation, you can look at innovation and building upon that, as I said, with your banking partner or banking partners. And I think it's very important to have a strong bank in place, a strong cash management bank in particular in place that can see you through that journey.

So you're all about the awards, aren't you? You're all about the medals. Look at you. You know, it's a little bit recognition. It's like, what can I have? And look at us, we've got the Adam Smith Award and corporate finance. And I saw a post on LinkedIn from one of my mates the other days and it's all about, you know, which bank pays the other bank and more to be, you know, the best partner. But on a corporate side, it's actually a lot of hard work to get those things. And it's not just, it is actually recognition. And also, you know, just on a recent podcast at AC Golden Hires from Kongsberg and he's won a number of the Adam Smith awards because he kept questioning their cash management solution. You know, he kept pushing it down, right down to the supplier level. And people like, well, we've never done this before. He said, I don't care whether you've not done it before, we're going to do it. And it was amazing.

Yeah.

Now with you guys, you won a couple of these awards, why did you do it? Was it Just about recognition or what was the situation?

I have to say, you know, getting those two awards, one internal, one external, it's absolutely lovely recognition and it really does put a spring in your step. But that wasn't the ultimate goal to get an award. It was all about having that continuous innovative mindset and I've always tried to infuse that within any of the teams that I've managed to always think outside the box. And you mentioned just there in relation to somebody you were speaking to not being afraid to re look at things every so often and pull things apart if needed. If you see something better, why not pull it apart? And that's actually what we did in relation to the Adam Smith Award. I was a joint lead on Global Cash Management rfp. Very successful project and the outcome of that was to roll out a virtual account structure which is very innovative. Banks are pushing that quite a bit over the last couple of years, two or three years. And we were one of the first to do it at that point in time. And we weren't afraid to pull apart our cash boundary structure at that point because it was good but we wanted to push the boundaries.

Why push the. But surely is it loads of. It can be sometimes a lot of time and effort spent on marginal improvement. You know, was it. Or did you. Could you see actually if we did this or did you set out the goals if we throw this up in the air, you know, break the part apart again and redo it, we could make X amount of cost saving from day one. Or was it a different way of thinking?

Ultimately what we saw with a virtual account structure was a two pronged approach. It was enabling us to reconcile better identify transactions a lot better, giving us flexibility around account opening. KYC Lite was a term that was being thrown around by banks and it is true. And bank account rationalization. And that was at the core of what we wanted to do. We wanted to trim down and become more lean and that's where we ended up. That's why we didn't have the fear around pulling apart a perfectly suitable cash concentration structure and bring it forward to the next generation.

Yeah, and then you made, you know, you were there for 11 years, very successful years obviously and then it was time for a change or talk us through moves and stuff like that and then into your current role. You know, how did you. Where are you now today? And talk us through that.

Yeah, today I'm at KPMG Ireland and I was there or hired to set up a Treasury Solutions or Treasury Advisory offering. I Started in March last year, 2020, just one week before our first lockdown, which was very unfortunate. I've managed to sit in my seat for about five days in the office and, and at home ever since.

When you scared when they said, right, you've been here five days, go home, you know, whoa, whoa, whoa. Just got here, fellas.

And the funny thing about it is I left Tusan Doosan restructured and moved a lot of its operations from Dublin to Prague back in March 19th. So I consc some time out, I had the luxury of doing so and took some time out in 2019 to spend time with family, which is also very important to me. And by the end of that year, my kids were standing in the driveway waving goodbye to me, glad to see the back of me when I was going out the door to kpmg. And a week later I said, kids, unlucky for you. I'm back, I'm working from home and.

Without deep diving too much, you know, because we've all been through the past year and a bit and it's just been rubbish. But now as we start to recover and we look towards the future and things like that, what there's been within consulting a lot of time, you go in, do health checks, you do various bits, you do reviews and things. Where are you seeing the market now starting to recover for you guys? And what are clients saying? You know, what are you, you know, your front end, like ourselves, we're obviously, you know, restarting some clients. People are starting to move around. But from your perspective, you know, looking at best practices, looking at the kpm, what are you guys seeing now?

I'm sure you've seen yourself at the front end of the pandemic itself. There was an element of panic that ensued and that understanding we're all working from home, where is our cash? What is the visibility and control around risk management? Who has access to what? I think having that touch point and visibility is absolutely key and not all organizations had that at that point in time and we saw that it was very evident in terms of some of the organizations that we were speaking to, we are definitely seeing in this calendar year organisations breathing a sigh of relief. 2020 is over, we're now in 2021 and an element of movement definitely from our standpoint, organizations now coming out at the back end and they're seeing that flexibility around. Actually we're seeing more traction on our side of things in terms of approaching us and not letting something like that happen again. You know, if, if it does happen again or Something of a similar nature does happen in terms of how can we be ready, how can we ready for the next one. It was just an alert, alarm bell went off. And I think that realization hit home.

One of the things I was going to add there is. And similarly, when I've spoken to a couple of other guests in a similar situation, but some of the time, if you like, they had all these project plans and things and they, you know, this came on and they went, oh, hang on, grabbed off the shelf and dusted down the contingency plans. They got that book out and started to go through that and things like that. They pulled that down and they put back up these projects and they said, well, look, they can gather. And they've been gathering dust for a year and a half. And you know, I talked to Phil recently about relevance and things and he said, you know, a year and a half ago, blockchain was, oh, yeah, that's been sitting on the shelf gathering dust. And then people go, do I need to get that off the shelf? And actually, you know, these, these theoretical ideas. But actually there are things that are going, actually, we do need a Treasury system. Actually you need more rigorous risk management. In the case of another, you know, when you're seeing that stuff coming off again, what are the pressing things? What's the number one thing coming through to you from the treasury profession? You know, you know, you're doing conference calls, you know, clients are going, can we talk to you about X? Yeah, what's X?

Well, I think the approach that we take is, and it goes back to a point that you made around a health check. We conduct regular diagnostics on treasury functions and those organizations that we speak to do want that diagnostic exercise to be conducted. And that teases out the issues. So what we do see is very simple things that are lacking in terms of governance, policies, procedures. They're the very basic structural items that should be embedded in a Treasury function from the very front end that gives you your structure and your form. You can then move on to the nice things that we're seeing around innovation nowadays and things that I like around technology, because I do have a technology education, as I mentioned, and I love to embrace that type of technology. The fintechs that are out there pushing out the likes of cash flow forecasting, visibility around that, applying artificial intelligence to the, the data, machine learning to that data. I think treasury functions are now starting to embrace that sort of next wave of technology. And it's, it's very simply understood. It's. But I, I love it, you know, it's. And I see it's, it's, it's something that should be embraced. Treasury systems, back to the old days, they used to be quite expensive. You would get one treasury management system that did everything. Now you don't need to do it. You can pick modules within a Treasury management system. It's like a little menu. You can pick from. You can pick your liquidity planning, your cash management, you can pick a risk management module purely because each treasury function can be different and you can pick a customized version if you want. So that's what we're seeing out there. And organizations are starting to embrace that, to have that visibility and control and good workflow management within their function.

And exactly as you say, I think from. It was one size fits all many years ago. Now it's a la carte, you know. Well, actually, yes, I won't have that starter. I don't need it, you know, you know, we've got enough stuff there. Let's just have this main course and we don't need the pudding. That's very much.

Absolutely.

Just going to focus on this.

So you can. Yeah, exactly. And, and organizations are all ranges of size or varied sizes. So you have small treasury functions that may have taught. Well, I'm too small for a Treasury management system. I'm too small to have something like that. Now they can consider embracing that type of technology. They can pick from that menu.

Yeah. And it'd just be a cash system and whatever it might.

Exactly, exactly.

You mentioned there your, you know, your background within computer science and the logical and all that stuff. And I know that you're passionate about education and guys getting qualifications, you know, why is that, you know, in your. Why do you think that's such a key thing to have in your back pocket? And, you know, again, the listeners today, you know, sometimes I get guys who said, well, I don't need it and stuff. And I said, well, it's all right, but just accept that. You won't go on the shortlist. And they're like, why? I said, well, because the other 10 people applying for the job do have it. And you're going to be.

Exactly.

You're going to be 11th in the queue. Is that the only reason people should do it or just to get up there for the next job or what are your thoughts about it?

That is one of the reasons, you know, if you're, if you're stacked up against a number of individuals in an interview process, of course, if they have the same experience, you need to have that education to bring you above and beyond your competition. But that's not the only reason. I studied my honours degree in computer science at Trinity College. Actually after those four years of hardship and studying by night and working by day, I swore I would never do it again. And I did this twice afterwards. And it's hard to explain it, but there is a kind of a love hate relationship studying by night, you know, and I went back into it and I went back back into it with the ACT and studied my diploma in Treasury Management. And even though I had a wealth of experience over a number of years across the various aspects that I'd mentioned, banking, outsourced treasury and pure corporate, I felt that I wanted to have that all rounded experience. I wanted to challenge some of the things that maybe I had picked up along the way. The education may challenge those and then say, okay, well maybe this aspect is something that I had molded in a way based upon the experience, but maybe I, if I add a bit of education to that, that may kind of fine tune it a bit more. So that was ultimately the reason why I wanted to do that education and to see what else was out there, was I missing something else? And, and I thoroughly enjoyed the journey, I have to say.

And as well as filling in the gaps as you say there and we talked about before the show with that sort of doing the education qualification, it sort of introduce you to other treasury professionals and you then, you know, you become very much involved in the membership associations, you know, because, yeah, you know, we talked about giving back and you know, coaching others and the fact that you can pick up the phone anytime to talk to another treasurer about, you know, or have you heard of this or what do you think? And you know, the collaboration of ideas, is that why you do it? You know, what was the sort of, you know, why do you see those associations? I recently had Caroline Stockman from the ACT on the show. Why is that important to you?

Well, in Ireland, as you'd mentioned, the Irish association of Corporate Treasurers is a charity organization. We have 400 plus members. I had joined the committee about five years ago. We have a blend of experience on the committee. I'm president this year in a very.

Lucky position shows anyone who can be president, you know, get a Twitter account, you know, Trump did it, you know, big on Twitter.

I will need to get myself a Twitter account actually.

So you get your Twitter, that's it. You then become. I'm sorry, for any Americans listening, it's just me joking, sorry. Okay. It's just a joke. Sorry, I'm English, it's Irish. We have a good, you know, bit of banter. Sorry. Anyway, moving on. So you're the President, you know, and.

I am the president.

So what, what's that about?

So I joined the committee five years ago and I was asked to join the committee first of all and it was an absolute delight for me to do so. It's a real, there's a real mix of individuals on the committee and it was an opportunity for me to infuse myself even more in the treasury community. And I have to admit one of the things that I had lacked midway, early to midway through my career was my networking capabilities. And it was something that I would recommend for young and up and coming treasurers to do network a bit more, get themselves a mentor, do all of those things that get, get you out there. I didn't do that up until midway through my career and I thought this is a good opportunity for me to bring maybe some influence to the treasury community in Dublin, bring some value and also for me to learn as well and me to network as well. You know, that was the area that I had lacked and it was a two way approach, the iact, I suppose, hopefully I've learned from me and I've learned from the iact. So I've been there five years or so. As I said, President, this year we've rolled out a number of initiatives. We set up a mentoring program two years ago, three years ago actually, to encourage up and coming treasurers to get themselves a mentor. We formed that relationship and that bond and that has proved ever so successful over the last two to three years. The aim behind that is ultimately to reinforce the treasury knowledge, the treasury hope that is in Ireland at this point. And those up and coming treasurers will become the big hitters in years to.

Come through that networking and things. And actually one thing I will mention and we'll put in the show notes, I've recently done a session for Treasury360, the conference organization, and they're particularly focused on a lot of the Nordics, but actually, and this will be recorded and people can see on our YouTube channel about the power of networking in both the virtual and the real world. You know, we're going to do a hybrid event later this year just like this, but Treasury 3, you know, in sort of a Treasury career corner live like we did before. But you know what, if anything the past year has talked to us about is the power of networking and doing a zoom cocktail on a Friday. I'm sorry, it's not as much fun as doing real life cocktail on a Thursday or Friday or whatever day it might be. But that power of networking. And I'd reflect there, you know, exactly as Keith said, that the. A number of my clients, you know, when they suddenly, oh, I need a job, or I'm thinking about the next move.

Yeah.

Oh, I need to start networking. Well, well, well, start NETWORKING, you know, 365 days ago, you know, or, you know.

Yeah.

Because then also jobs come to you.

Yeah, exactly.

Chris Fulton on the show years ago and it was just brilliant. He. He's a great networker, but he just gently works at his network and then a job came hunting for him and it sounds like you've done some similar thing, I would say.

And the treasury community in Ireland is. It's a great community to me. I'd liken it to this kind of village feel. You can go down the road and knock on the door and ask for an opinion. You can pick up the phone to another treasurer quite easily as a good sounding board. And I've done that over the years. I've often picked up the phone, you know, over my days at Doosan, to understand and trying to utilize that sounding board to the best of my abilities. And I know for a fact that that's how a number of treasurers and treasury people operate. You can easily be people the phone. And that's just such a nice thing about what we do in the iact.

Yeah, that supportive network and things. Amazing, sir. So, you know, we've covered there about the power of education and things like that. What we're going to do is we're going to put your LinkedIn details in the show notes so that people can connect to you. But again, as people look through your profile, say, do you know what I want to be like, Keith? I want to have a similar profile to yourself and things like that. And we. One thing I would say is, you know, again, before the show, we sort of. He showed me some of his notebooks and, you know, always kept that sort of ready to hand past experience, things like that. So I did one of the tips. You know, I have the red and black books, he's got the black books. And, you know, when he goes back over that stuff, that might be one of the tips. I'm not. I'm not putting it in your mouth, but I'm just saying it might be a tip. But as we wrap up today's show, what. What tips would you give to people, if they are at any stage of their career, early Stages mid later on. You know that a lot of our treasurers want to hear war stories and stuff, but what sort of advice would you give them as takeaways today?

I suppose I've given a few snippets of that in terms of my recommendations. But to reinforce what I would do going forward, if I was starting my career again or even midway through the career, I would definitely get myself a mentor. If it's a mentor for one year, if it's a mentor that's informally formed throughout your career, it's definitely something that can form a good sounding board. I think that was something that I didn't have in the front end of my career. I definitely did have a mentor and I still do have a mentor that I can pick up the phone to. An ex boss of mine. I think it's just a must have and it gives you a good steer. If you're ever in any sort of difficulty or wondering what direction to take, do I go left or do go right, you can pick up the phone and unlock that. That's one piece of advice. Networking we touched upon. Get out there, understand who's out there, speak to people, get phone numbers, engage with those individuals. They're great sounding boards as well. Beyond your mentoring relationship, get yourself out there as well. Get comfortable with speaking again. That was something I wasn't comfortable with many, many years ago. I brought myself, I put myself in uncomfortable circumstances in my early years to break that mold and to speak at events and to speak whether it be an internal event, whether it be an external event. I wanted to push the boundaries. I didn't want to be that person that regretted not doing it. Push yourself out there. If you're uncomfortable doing something, get yourself into position and do it because you'll regret it when the years go past. And it would be rude of me not to mention those notebooks, many notebooks I showed Mike earlier on. I have multiple notebooks. I'm a person that takes notes all of the time and they're very handy to look back on, you know, whether it be years back in terms of something that you've done in a particular project, always take notes and look back at those notes.

Very valuable, amazing takeaways. I'm just going to go through those. So get a mentor. We'll actually put a link in here to Karen Band Andresha's show when she was at Avnet. She's made a move since, but she referred exactly as Keith did there, to being a safe haven for crazy ideas. You can call, you know. Yeah, Is this a stupid idea or is this. But I love where you said about unlocking, you know, unlocking that secrets from someone who's been there and done it.

Yeah. And then.

Do you still have a mentor now you like?

I do, yeah. I pick up the phone to an ex boss of mine. He's on WhatsApp on phone, whatever, whatever I need, he'll always be there for me. It's. It's great. And it's, as I said, it's a sounding board. And no matter what level you're at, even if it's. If you're at a senior level, I think having a mentor there to guide you is absolutely key.

So again, we then talked about networking. You know what? And it's never been more powerful than ever. I think post pandemic and everything else. We'll put a link to the virtual and real networking session that I've done for say, Treasury360 speaking wise. I totally agree. And it's like, it's weird. People say how you speak all the time. I said it a couple of years ago in Chicago when we're allowed there. And I said halfway through, I said, you know, I really hate doing this. The audience like, what? I said, yeah, I don't do this. Oh, well, you're a natural. I said, I rehearse it. I feel sick before I do it. I do it really well because I rehearse at loads and I make an effort. But the fact is I knew that in order to expand our business and grow it, you have to do. And it makes you better, doesn't it? I mean, and you've seen that and.

Absolutely.

I know some of the stuff and, you know, that's got you to where you are now and the future as well, wouldn't you say?

Exactly. You really have to do it. If it is something that's part of your business and you want to grow, do it. If you're uncomfortable, just break that. Break the mold, get out there and do it. And it's interesting. I read an article, or I think it was a book by Richard Branson. He mentioned that he still gets that knot in the stomach anytime he goes out and then speaks to a group or, you know, an audience. And it can happen, you know, but I'm a lot, lot more comfortable than I was years ago. And I love speaking now, actually. And we will have conferences coming up with the iact and I will speak at those. And I've spoken at many events in the past. And I love it when you get up on the stage and when you speak in front of people, it's that first. Once you get that first lying out, you're away.

Yeah. And go. And again, I've got here about, you know, have a little black book. I love this, Keith. I don't know, I'm jealous. I've got a little, you know, book envy. I've got. I'll use red and blacks, as we said before. But I think, you know, as you say, your sort of past experiences inform your future growth. You know, you can refer to those. Hang on, I did that, you know, five years ago, 10 years. What did I do? You know, and I think that was amazing as well, wouldn't you say?

Exactly. You know, and then when I look back and I every day I do look back at those notes and some of them, my handwriting might have been the best. And it takes time to work, to work out what I've written down. But, you know, when you do tease it out a bit more, it makes total sense and it really adds value to your current work environment, you know, so take notes. Every little detail helps.

Okay, well, we'll put in the details to your LinkedIn details in the show. Notes to Mr. Keith Lynch, KPMG impresario, amazing treasury professional. Amazing show. And thank you very much and look forward to hopefully seeing a conference soon. It'll be great to see you, sir.

Be great to meet you in person and thanks very much, Mike, for the invite.

Pleasure. Hello, it's Mike here again. I hope you enjoyed this week's show. If you did, then maybe you want to follow the show or subscribe, depending on where you listen, whether that's itunes, Spotify or another. A great place to listen to the show from. It's totally free and means that you'll be the first to see each and every week when we release a new show. And maybe whilst you're there, you could even leave a quick review. Reviews and ratings are among the most important metrics for a podcast to effectively rank. And as you can probably appreciate, the podcast is a lot of hard work to produce. Every week it'd be amazing. Just take, say, 20 seconds, leave a quick review view of my amazing guests and their great career stories. We'd really appreciate it. Thanks very much and I can't wait to see you soon.