Embracing Treasury Automation and Technology with Marianna Polykrati

Foreign.

To this week's Treasury Career Corner podcast where I interview treasury professionals about their treasury careers. Each and every week I talk to them about how they've built their careers, where they are now, where they see both themselves and the treasury profession going to next. Let's get on with the show. In this week's show, joined by a long term friend of mine, Mariana Polokrati, the group treasurer, Abramar Avramar is a leading company in the food industry as the world's leading producer of high quality Mediterranean fish and a number of other vertically integrated operations. So you've got brands, things like sea bream, stone bass, sea bass, number of independent companies. But I'll get Mariana to explain that a little bit more. We've known each other for many years. We're going to go back to the dim distant past, how you first discovered finance and then Treasury. We will literally go right back to the beginning of how you started and then go from there. So Mariana, how did you start over to you.

Well, good evening Mike. It's nice that you're having me here in this podcast. I remember we have tried in the past again but the circumstances was not ideal. So I'm very happy that we're having this opportunity today. I would say that I kind of popped into finance and treasury by luck, by mistake. You know what I always had in mind is that you always have to open and have an open mind in order to investigate all the different paths that your life can take you to. So when I was in high school I was fixated in becoming a doctor. So I was studying to enter the university as a doctor. I had a bit of not good luck at that time. So I went then to start doing psychology. Just like switched a bit the major in the, in the American College of degree. So I started in psychology. So I was studying studying psychology for two years. That was good because you know, in treasury at the end of the day you really need to be able to talk to people and understand the people. So I think this has helped me a lot in my background. But at the same time I was taking some other majors as well. So I was taking business Management, Marketing, Accounting, Finance. When I reached finance I really enjoyed the classes. So after the second year I switched into accounting and finance. In two years I got my degree and, and I decided to pursue then my master's in corporate finance in the States. So I left Greece, which I am currently located well. So I went to the States to start working and studying on corporate finance. That was very challenging because you know, at the time, universities in the States, I was maybe the youngest kids in the block there. I was like 23 and the old. The other one was like 35 with like experience, working experience, but it was good. At the same time I managed to have a lot of, how can I say, they were giving me like mentors their experience. So this is one of the lessons that I have always when you have the ability and the experience to help other people, I try to do that and I try a lot with the young people and the young treasures as well that I have around me. I came back to Greece to start working at the time it was the period when all the banks and the banking sector was booming. I found a very good position and a very challenging position at the time that was in one of the banking sectors that was a relationship manager in Eboliki. That was my first lesson in order how to understand and give credit to a company. That was really good, you know, because looking back, it really helps me today understand what the banks are thinking when they are trying to provide to a treasurer a credit facility. After four years, I had the opportunity within the bank to switch and go to a venture capital firm. As I say, I always like to have and see my options and see different paths of what I can see and what I can learn in my life. Because learning and the educational part is very important for me, right. So I always want to keep learning something. I had the opportunity within the bank, so I switched to a subsidiary that was a venture capital, which that added as well to my background, the ability to build business plans, to evaluate business plans and see how the companies structure all their financial statements. So having the background of what the company needs for credit, seeing what an investor sees in order to invest in a company, put equity. I decided to switch to the corporate side, which was, I think the best move that I made in my life at that point because it was right prior to Lehman, like two years prior to the bank starting to collapse. So, yeah, I think that was pretty much how I ended up into finance and Treasury.

And it's an interesting one there because a number of the guests we've had on the show previously, they cross particularly I say the Nordics and some of the German region in particular, they do a similar thing. So they will go and work and get their apprenticeship and they. They get to know banks and know what the banking guys on the other side of the table want, need and are looking for from a corporate. And then they start. I'm really interested in what you're doing at Treasury. Can I sit on your site? Can I join you guys? Or you know, they get said oh, we've got a role coming up. So you did that side of things. But as you say, sort of you were going through what was a tough time in the markets. What happened with your treasury career? How did it grow from there?

Well, I joined in one of the largest Greek FMCG companies at that time. That was Vivarnia, which was. It came from a merger of five different companies in the food sector. I started as assistant group treasurer and within one year I jumped and I got the position as a captain of the Treasury. Being the group treasurer, that was a huge group that I undertook. We had like presence in more than 35 countries, operations in 60, a huge portfolio and a very diverse brand portfolio at that time. I believe that it was very challenging because during my six years that I, that I stayed in Vivarte, we changed three times. Shareholders, as you can see, treasury remained its position because I think, well, generally I think that treasury is a position where people remain for many years in the same position because it's a job that requires a lot of trust. You know, you have to build a relationship and usually top management and the shareholders have a lot of expectations of the treasurer and they rely at the end of the day in Greece you will see this in general that there are treasurers in the treasury position that are more than 15 years in the same positions in companies.

And when you say that is that because you know there's. They want to hold on to those guys or what do you think the reason is?

I think two things in general companies. I don't want to see the company's purse, you know, being changing hands. Right. So they're keeping the cash into quite solid and to have it in closed doors the treasury and what the cash and the debt of the company is and not share this information open to all the other departments. Furthermore, usually treasurers in Greece are also the treasurers of. I don't know if this happens in many countries of the main shareholders, you know and because they're usually family owned business. So the treasurer is also the treasury of the family owned business shareholder. Right. So this builds, builds a lot of trust. Usually we don't change positions that, that easily.

Yeah, and I've heard of that with. It's interesting there are some groups within UK across the US as well where as you say there might be a private group and you then become not just the treasurer of the company outside there's a couple of clients of Ours, that. And it was like, yes, you're going to do the company money and start doing the company money. And then once they get to know, know like and trust you, then it's. Right now you're becoming the treasurer for the family holdings as well. Now you're becoming the treasury and you, you're sort of taken into inner circle. Once you get in that, it's sometimes difficult to leave in a good way because you're trusted enough and you get rewarded, become the family's banker as well. You know, you're looking after their cash and you invest yourself in it. So yeah, it sounds very similar in that way.

That is correct. Majority here in Greece, it was like family business. Now it's changing the landscape changing. Right after I left Ivarti and I went to Chipita. Okay. Chipita was also quite like, was the shareholders there for many years. So I remained in the position for the following nine years until we had the acquisition from Modeles. I mean, this is a huge deal that happened in Greece. It was one of the largest deals.

Can you just explain Vivatia, what did they do? What did Chapita. Now you and I both know because I've known listeners for many, many years. So, okay, tell me about the two companies. And so listeners know a bit more.

So Vivartia was a huge group that came as a merger of five different entities. At that time it was a 1 billion revenue company. We had a dairy division, a snack division, a frozen foods, fast food, restaurants business. The good thing for me when I joined the team is that I was kind of, as I say, a UN person. I was not coming from any of the different businesses. So that made my role quite easy because as you know, when you have in mergers, what happens when companies merge. Usually there are small rivals and competition between the different people from different entities. Right. Being a person that was neutral, coming outside of the businesses of these four businesses, I managed to help everything and help structure and build the treasury function. At that time I started in Vivarte, I was a person of one and I had one assistant group treasurer. We really did a lot of mergers and acquisitions. So I believe at that point, the fact that I had my venture capital background assisted me a lot in helping and jumping into different M and A cases that we had. Because we made, I think during the six years like four or five different acquisitions for a company in the us, a company in Bulgaria, in Cyprus. So we made a lot of acquisitions. That's why I remember. I think one of the key points that I have somewhere in Mind of one of my mentors is that the role does not define the person. Your abilities and the options that you provide define the role that you'll have in the company. So even though being the treasurer, I was involved in every MA transaction that was within the group, I think the skills also of a treasurer being so structured and organized is something that really assists on this. Right. Furthermore, we have also the mind with having a financing transaction. So it is similar to a deal structure. We can also finance the acquisition and all the parameters to do the financing for the acquisition in the proper time, with the proper means, exactly as it needs to be in order to be smooth going. Okay. I stayed in Vivartia, which was an FMCG company, as I explained, until 2013. Then I jumped to one of the companies that was in Vivartia. So Chipita was one of the. Is still, I would say, one of the largest bakery confectionery companies in Greece. It is a Greek multinational, as they. As we say, the main product is packaged croissants with factories in 10 different countries all around the globe and commercial entities in more than 20 countries and products sold. It was half a billion business. This was one of the entities that was in Vivartia, but was sold during the period that I was in Vivartia. Three years after it was sold, the CEO of the company asked me to join in order to assist further in the business development of Chipita. Chipita was opening new markets every two years. So it required a lot of financing in order to do this. But at the same time it had many mature businesses and other entities. So you needed a treasurer that would be also a cash traffic controller in order to be bringing the cash and sending the cash. Whatever needed at the time needed. A very interesting period of my life. I stayed there for nine years with many different things doing, you know, from setting up treasury, because there wasn't any treasury at that point there. I started by myself. I finished with two treasury specialists in the team up till the day that it was sold to Mondelez, which was a deal transaction that took for two years, which I was involved then as well. So further doing the treasury business that we had, that was from cash management, debt restructurings, acquisitions, opening new markets, FX transactions, because we had like more than 13 different currencies and exotic currencies as well. I was strongly involved in the process of the sale of the company to Mondelez, which was a two year project. A special task that I had here was handling the VDR of the company as well, which is very interesting. Because, you know, it is, as I say, the mindset of a treasurer is being structured and organized, which helps a lot in doing, like, type of a project management. Right. Very interesting. A lot of data information, you know, within the company and with the external stakeholders until we reach the final closure. We closed the deal successfully in early 2022.

Bring us up to date with sort of the moment. I know, I know this is a quiz show. This is what I'm doing. This is my job. I've got to keep going.

Okay? So at the time, I was more. The less very interesting time, because I managed. The truth is, I never had the glimpse of how a multinational works and how it operates, how it creates an educational process. Right. But as I say, I believe I was a bit too old in order to do this type of project with more than less. And as I am a treasurer that has holistic view and I do an overview of everything. Unfortunately, multinationals have blocks of treasury. Right? So they have a part, a department in one country that is strictly on risk management, one that is in debt structuring, the other one that has to do with investments. If I was to jump on the vehicle of Mondelez and join them, I would be involved in only one small part of treasury, which is something that I really didn't want to do. And the truth is that the people in modeles, which I respect a lot, they had the same opinion for me because they thought that I'm very broad in this. So, I mean, it wouldn't be the best fit for both of us. What I did is I decided, after we finished, to have a sabbatical of six months, which is very interesting because I never considered myself. I've been working since I was like 17 years old. Right. I was studying, going to college. I was working while I was going to college as well. So I managed to do something very interesting and stay for six months, not working, but at the same time being involved in many different projects, like getting involved more deeply with the Hellenic association of Treasurers joining think tank, which is called the boardroom that talks more and tries to educate women in order to be more capable and enter the boardrooms. Right. I was also signed as an ambassador for gbbc, which is automation. Right. Very important for me.

GBC is global blockchain.

Yes.

Council, isn't it? So, yeah, that's one of the things. So you're. Because I know that you love technology. Let's. Let's just explore that for a moment. Let's use that as a springboard for that.

Okay.

Why Is that so important? You know, in automation, everyone wants to use a system and automation. But why are you so passionate about it?

I have, in, in my career, I have set up three times Treasury Departments. Right. Or restructuring a bit the current process and procedures of a Treasury Department. What I see is a lot of people doing a lot of things manually. That is something that should stop, should the companies and the people working the company should stop doing. Because currently there are a lot of tools that can assist you in order, how to do things more automatically in order to be more strategic than an operational traditional treasurer. Right. So instead of just going in the morning and starting pulling out the bank statements, trying to find the bank positions, it is great to see that there are RPA's, software, you know, robotic process software that what you can do, you can set it, you can have it regulated. So in the morning when you go up, everything pops in one folder and in one screen. So you have much more time strategically to think, what can I do with the cash that I have? Instead of trying to find what is the cash that I have? Right. Automation and, and it's growing fast, right. Because I still see people in companies in Greece that are manually, this, they're doing manually the accounting entries for the bank movements, they are doing payments manually. So it's a lot of time that is wasted in doing things that are unnecessary to do today. Right. And you can use this time to facilitate and do more strategical things. And the truth is that in Greece, treasury especially new ones, new treasures are a bit difficult to find. Right. So being able to do some things more automatically will allow you to have much more time and train people coming in for treasury as well.

And throughout lockdown, did you see that was happening? Did you see people embracing that and did it help?

Well, I think lockdown was trigger point, I think because everyone started being much more accustomed to doing things remotely based much more on technology and things that they didn't do in the beginning. Right. Because everyone started saying, okay, let's work with DocuSign. Previously you said, okay, I have to go to the bank, sign the contracts, the two legal representatives or whoever is being appointed, do paperwork, sign all the copies and everything. And now during the lockdown, we had the DocuSign and we started changing the processes, the policies and the procedure in order to harmonize this with all the new developments. So you could have, you didn't have to be at the office to have everything signed or to make even the payment transfer orders when you need it.

In some cases, as you say, People were then using Docusign and actually leveraging technology, but there's this passion for it. Where does that come from?

The truth is I never considered myself to be, you know, tech oriented. You know, I was always thinking that I was doing the basics, but slowly, you know, with all the people around my age, I'm not going to tell my age, but, you know, a bit us not so young people in the treasury profession. I was saying that I had the ability to do more things. So, as I see, technology is growing, we have to take advantage of what it's doing, but at the same time we have to be quite cautious and put a lot of policies and procedures in order not to miss the focus as well. Right. It is nice talking about artificial intelligence, RPA's, robotics, ChatGPT, everything. But question is not using these tools, just to use them. This, first of all, to see what problems we have. So you have to do forensics within your Treasury. What problems I have, how can these be solved and can new technology help us? Right, Because I think everyone think it's like a trend and everything is trying to do it. You don't have to use a. Why? I mean, you can still use traditional things, what you're using, but sometimes, you know, in order to save time and the resources that we have, because we're quite limited in resources, automation is the only way to go. I'm not afraid, Mike, of technology. That is one of the things. I mean, because a lot of people are afraid that automation, technology, they will lose your jobs. We just need to educate and train ourselves into different things. At the end of the day, which this is something that I have done during my whole career, right? I always tried, I didn't remain stagnant. The only thing I have that I really enjoy and I don't want to leave is Treasury. I really don't want to leave out of dysfunction. I don't know, for some reason it's stuck on me, right? It has become another part of me. So I don't want to leave out of treasury because one of the questions that everyone has is like, in five years, what are you going to be? I mean, a lot of people say, you know, treasures go and become CFOs. I say, why can't I be a treasurer doing different things, restructuring, setting up new treasury in different companies. Can't. I can't. I mean, with all the new things and the new developments and so you've.

Got this passion for technology, but bring us up to date with your current role and then we'll talk about connecting people because that's something you do very, very well. And that's how you know we've been connected for many years. So current position, bring it, bring us up today.

I did this six month sabbatical. I kind of took a break. The truth is I was working all day doing different things. And in April 23rd I had very interesting proposal from Avrahammar which is, as you said, one of the largest aquaculture companies in Greece. So it is in the food business, which I really enjoy and I find really interesting. It is a FMCG and it has also a global position. It has presence in Greece, it has presence in Spain. 80% is in Greece and 20% is in Spain. I have the group function, so I am on top of both groups overviewing the cash. And the truth is I had no idea of Aquaculture prior to joining. So, you know, this is one of the nice things that the treasurer, you don't have to know a hundred percent the business because pretty much what we do, we can apply in different sectors. We just need to pay attention of the specifics that impact cash flow, cash management and debt management in every new sector that we join. So Aquaculture is very interesting, but it has, globally, it is in a difficult position in general. There is a lot of turmoil in the aquaculture business. I was called, this is a group that came from the merger again. So I'm starting to believe they're calling me whenever they're having a merger. Yeah, I'm such a person to try and connect all the people within the organization. So I joined and this was a mix of, I think 10 to 15 different aquaculture farms. So there were people in the business and they were still thinking a bit in treasury, this is what we did in our company, this is what we did in the other one. So one of the key challenges was I had a Treasury team of 10 people in Greece and four in Spain. So in Greece I had to try and get have these people aligned with one target and that this is one treasury team. We manage cash unilaterally and we don't have all this difference. So we had two big challenges. This is the first one to help the people and have them all joined under one brand name. The second one was due to the mergers of many, many companies at all times. There needed a lot of house cleaning in all the bank account management. So I came and there were numerous bank accounts within the same bank because it came from all the different entities from the past. So it's not easy, you know, Trying to clean up 150 bank accounts, bringing them up to 10. Right. Furthermore, as this has came, this was from a restructuring from the banks. You understand, this comes from a lot of different. The owners of this company in the past were the banks. So this was one of the restructuring projects that was in 2019. So still it needs a lot of work regarding the debt structure that it has. Currently we are in discussions with the banks in restructuring because as I say in my career I have never repaid a bank loan till it's end. You usually refinance, you have like five year bonds. After the third year you refinance it with a new one. Pretty much here was kind of the same thing, right? Because it was like a 10 year bond and there were like four years. The company has passed, business plan has changed from the beginning. So at one point within the next year I believe we will start restructuring the debt in Greece as well.

So you've been at the really, really challenging time. But I know throughout that you've, you and I have talked a lot about people, you know, you're a great people, connector, both internally. So that's where I was going to go with that one because it's about you're a very good internal networker and connector people but you've also got very much involved with the Hellenic association of things. Can you, you know, maybe talk to those a little bit?

Having an association, I will tell you it is something that was in, in my mind like in 2008 there was a group of treasurers in Greece which we wanted to do this and start an association and talk about our problems and do all these things. But 2008, don't forget it was the Lehman crisis and the collapse of the banks. So at that time, while we were thinking we had different priorities, right? So we had very tough and difficult times at the time. So we left the association on the side. In 2021, I was approached by a young group of five Greek treasurers that resided in the Netherlands and they were talking about building an association of treasurers in Greece. And the truth is that they didn't need to talk to me more than 10 seconds for me to jump and say, yes guys, you know, I'll join you and of course, and we will try and we will build that and bring it up to any speed. The unique characteristic of the Hellenic association is that it's a hybrid form. I mean we have Greek treasurers from Greece. I think Today we're approximately 200 members out of which 75, 70 to 75% reside in Greece, so they are Greek treasurer, working in either multinationals or Greek corporates. And 25 to 30% are Greeks that reside outside of Greece. So we have Greeks that are treasures in the uk, in the us, in Switzerland, Netherlands, Cyprus, Dubai, in any region you can imagine. So it is very interesting because we started at that February, I think, 21, very small, having our first summit. 21 with 60 members joining, 22, we reached approximately, I think 110, 120 members. And in 23, we have reached a very good number of 200 members, which is really fascinating, right, and extraordinary compared to what we hear from the other associations all around Europe. In the beginning, I was in a lot of the committees, you know, in the PR and Communications committee, reaching out to all the treasurers in Greece and, you know, just convincing them to join wasn't very difficult though, right, Because I think everyone was searching and trying to find out more about treasury and be able to speak to someone the same language that they speak. Why? Because I believe treasurers in their companies are a bit like a. An exotic animal, right? It's. Sometimes we talk about things and nobody understands what we're talking about. You say, I say, okay, guys, I have this derivative that I. I want to see, let's see the mark to market value. And they look at you and say, Mariana, what are you talking about? What is the derivative? Right? So it was very interesting because I think we have grown and we have grown quite well between amongst ourselves, we know each other. We have formed working groups, we have split treasury into the different functions. So we have a corporate Sustainable Finance working group, a cash management and treasury infrastructure working group, bank treasury, because we have treasures from banks as well. Risk Management working group. So we have split a bit the function of the treasury into separate themes. And what we do is we meet twice a month and we have like brainstorming sessions, we call residents in order to find, you know, different things, how we can improve ourselves or different solutions that we can have. And in general, we have very nice networking events as well. Right. In order to join and do much more things.

It's amazing the work you've done. And I know over the years, you know, we've connected and we're talking about doing some other things with you guys. I think it's just, it's just fabulous to see it growing and, you know, developing and everything else. So just going back a stage. Why is that such a passion for you? I mean, you've just talked about the practicalities, some of it there. But why Is this such a big thing for you?

The association?

Yeah, the association, Stroke connections. Why is that for you, such a big thing?

I think I was very fortunate in my life and I had very good mentors and people that have supported me in all the different aspects of my business career. I feel a bit that I can give back some of this. So with connecting people, it doesn't cost anything, right? When you connect and you make a small talk and see because people can assist each other, right? You can have something that you're very interested in finding about. And I say, you know, I met a guy at that conference, right, and he was an expert in this. Why don't you talk to him? And then it goes around, right? I mean, we have so much knowledge, it's nice to share it because, as I say, I had the privilege of working with people that shared a lot of their knowledge. So I really feel fascinated when doing the same.

Fabulous. So we come in towards the end of the show, as we do each and every week, we wrap up with your takeaways for people. So we'll put your LinkedIn details in the show notes so people can connect to you. And you'd be lucky to have Mariana in your circle, in your network because she's lovely lady and everything else. What are we going to take away? What are we going to give these people that you've given great value already, but what are the final takeaways you're going to do on today's show?

Well, the first one is that there is, as I say, there's not only one way to find the solution to a problem, right? So there's not only one path that you can take, there are always side paths and it's worth, you know, taking the time to investigate these as well. This mindset have helped me a lot in problem solving that there's not only, you know, one way to take a. To find a solution to problem. You can go around, you can go on the side, you can investigate different things. As I said, passing knowledge around, it's something that really doesn't cost. I mean, you cannot be an expert to anything. I have heard sometimes that said, it is not who what you know, but it is whom you know at one point, you know, you have a capacity to know so much things. I mean, sometimes you have to have experts, you know, assisting and doing further and more and more analytical things that you can do. Right. Another one I would say is don't let the role define you as a person. I mean, it's not treasury, it's this, this one, two, three. Right. Treasury can also go to different grounds, right? You can go in different sides. As I say, you can go in M and A, you can assist in project finance. I mean, half of my day I spent with lawyers and legal. So esg, wow. This is something that I didn't talk about today, but treasures are quite good in ESG and sustainability. We were the first that were, you know, in these questionnaires coming to us with ESG as the company with the banks calling us. So you can be the treasurer, but apparently you can do a lot of different things, right? So I guess these are the takeaways. I believe you have to be open to the different challenges, right? Keep an open mind into different things and solutions. Automation is a solution of the future. People need to be educated for this as well. And we can start doing it now in order not to be obsolete. Future, right. It's fast growing. It's developing very fast. We will have changes in the next three years and we haven't seen the last 20.

As I say, we'll put your LinkedIn details in the show notes. I can't wait to see you further throughout the year and into next year. And you've just been amazing today, so thank you. It was glad to finally get you on the air.

Thank you.

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Sa.