Exploring Cultural Differences in Treasury with Christopher Emslie

Welcome to this week's Treasury Career Corner podcast where I interview treasury professionals about their treasury careers. Each week I talk to treasurers about how they built their careers, where they are now, and where they see both themselves and the treasury profession going next. In this week's show, delighted to be joined by Chris Emsley, the Asian Regional treasurer at General Mills and what I would say is the first ever South African on the show. So welcome. Looking forward to the lions in a couple of years. Sorry I had to drop in that rugby reference. We'll carry on. Gerald Mills. As many people may know, an American multinational manufacturer marketer of consumer foods sold across the world throughout their retail stores. So some of the North American brands you might know, Cheerios, Old El Paso, Betty Crocker, Blue Buffalo. Wide range of brands in the portfolio. Over 100 brands, 100 countries right across the world. They're actually headquartered in Minneapolis, Minnesota, usa. But Chris is obviously based down in Asia, so we'll go through that. Obviously Chris is the Asia regional treasurer, but originally he's got an experience, well, taking him around the globe. So he started off in South Africa and then moved around. Talk us through rather your career today and how you first got your break within finance from university and then. Then you found treasury, you found the path, as it were.

Yeah. Hello, Mike. Thank you very much. And it's always good to be the first South African. Always puts a feather in everybody's cap, I think. Yes. So my career started almost 20 years ago, straight out of university and then went into two articles and did my auditing route. Spent four years there. And then of course the natural evolution into finance worked for one of my customers who wanted me to come in and revolutionize what they were doing in finance and be their finance manager. So started in transports and trucking. We owned 40 trucks, great business to be in. And we distributed all the beer cans around the country in South Africa, a highly lucrative business. Then moved on to security, same sort of thing. It also all in finance and then in a small little engineering company where I cut my teeth and learnt a few things that you don't always learn in larger multinationals, especially in South Africa. It was then time for a change. So I then went to ABB and I ran their SAP implementation. So I basically was there conduit between business and the SAP team in implementing SAP at abb in early 2008, which was quite different. It was also a great time for a break and at that stage of my career I'd got a little bit tired of finance and the Month end procedures and just the reconciliations and everything else that went with that, including financial year end closing and the auditors. So it was a great break. It was a good two years of my career where I then spent just working out how to integrate this, the SAP system and how to build it and make sure that it was going to be the best that it could be both for the business and for the team that was implementing it. From that I got approached by the CFO in country in South Africa who asked me to then come and look at his liquidity, his cash and his accounts receivable to see if I could add some weight there and help them with the issues that they were having currently with lack of collections and of course lack of cash. That led to the opportunity of where I started in treasury, where we were then going to start the first treasury organization in Africa, based out of South Africa and looking upwards in those days, what I knew about treasury was probably what I could put in my little pinky. It was a totally new experience and a little bit daunting considering the lack of experience. I think we spent a lot of time on planning on how we were going to roll it out, what we were going to look at and how we were going to implement it. And essentially what I've now been doing at General Mills is in those days we had a blank sheet of paper and we built it from the bottom up. We had no resources. We had the Zurich in House bank, if you want to call it that, and a lot of opportunities to learn from the people on the ground in Zurich. But unfortunately no structure in South Africa or Africa. A lot of the regulations prohibited us from dealing directly with group and with Zurich. So it was a very difficult time and time that was spent on the ground pretty much learning, reaching out to as many individuals as I could and especially my bankers and the partners that we had on trying to learn how best to be a treasurer and how best treasury could work and how best it could integrate into the business. I think those early days were a great experience. They were something that we can that I would always look back on and remember fondly. Because I think in those days treasury was far simpler. It was far easier to open bank accounts, interact with the bankers, deal with the regulators than what we have now. I think with the KYC and all the regulatory changes that we've seen. I think treasury has become a far more difficult beast to get your head around than it was in those early days.

You're obviously a South African and you were then setting up the sort of treasury structure within South Africa, how key do you think that was? Being a native to the continent, to the country first of all, but also the continent itself to having those relationships or understanding how it worked. Because a lot of people have said to me, and I do have a lot of actually South African clients and things. How different is operating within South Africa and then operating with Africa as well?

Mike, I think you're quite correct. I think you've hit the nail on the head there because it is extremely difficult to find yourself in South Africa and then Africa and then try and understand one, the nuances, two the people and then three, the regulatory landscape. Because it is extremely difficult. It's not somewhere where you can go in, integrate yourself and just believe that things are going to happen. Unfortunately, in both South Africa and Africa things take time. There's a huge bureaucracy that you need to overcome, there's a huge regulatory burden that you need to overcome in order to be able to facilitate the deals that you're looking for or even just to facilitate the simple day to day movements of money, whether it's coming from Zurich or from Europe or from the Americas into Africa. It's extremely difficult. I think having a knowledge of what one, the local markets and being a local person, I think it does make life far easier. My two successes in ABB South Africa were both foreign. Tenzing was from Nepal and the current treasurer is from Zurich. So it was a little bit more difficult for them to understand what was happening and how to get a handle on it. Because unfortunately it is not just day to day business where you can get up in the morning and think what I'm going to do these 10 transactions today and it's all going to just work because you're going to hit number two and all of a sudden the whole world's going to end and you're going to be able to, you're going to have reach out to your partners in order to facilitate the trade or the deal just to make sure that things are much easier.

And where does that come from? Why is it so bureaucratic regulation there? Where does that come from? I've talked to a couple of guys about it before but what's the history behind that would you say So I.

Think it's quite simple. I think in the past Africa has been undermined by corruption. I think many have used the opportunity to move money across borders, to move money out of countries that really shouldn't have happened. And I think that's where the regulators and the powers that be have been Decided to enough is enough that they've really put some stringent measures in place to stop that from happening. A lot of regulatory words around moving money cross border, the limits that they set that you can't just take $10 million across and out of the country, it can only be a million dollars because of the things that have happened in the past. And I think that's where people don't understand it. It's not like a transaction even now in China where you can move 50 million, do cross border, no problems at all. As long as you have safe approval and everything's easy and all the paperwork has been done and the government's giving you the approval, it's not a problem at all. I think in Africa, it really is still difficult. There are mechanisms for it to be facilitated and to be done, but I think it's just a hardship and I think you need to be able to navigate quickly and easy. But it's not always possible.

Is it improving, would you say? Obviously you start with that in a very strict line and then. Or is it stayed, stayed static over the past few years, once you've made.

Yourself known to the regulators and they've seen that you're above board and your documentation flow is easy, things start to open up and all of a sudden things start moving far quicker. It takes a little bit of time to get to that point. It's not something where you can click your fingers and all of a sudden it will be done. But once they know that you're above board, they see what's happening. And then of course the regulator and the tax authorities got quite cozy and got quite close together as well to facilitate open trade. Remember, it is sort of a growing market. It is still the do business because there's a lot of opportunity in Africa. I think it needs to be done. But once you move out of southern Africa, I mean you get to deeper starch Africa, then it becomes even more of a problem as well. And that's still where I would say South Africa was probably 15 years ago. Right.

So it's catching up sort of thing. But you were there for within that role for sort of three years before making a move out of the country. What, what happened? They said, right, that's it, enough of you here. Off you go more like.

My wife said she's moving to Singapore. Are you coming or not? So I think that was the catalyst, that was the perfect catalyst and it was a great opportunity to look across the border and see what else was out in the world. Was our first forage into a foreign country. Lucky for us it happened to be Singapore. I think the opportunity came. My boss then in Dubai, had moved to Hong Kong, gave me a call and said, I believe you're looking for a job, can I help? And I said, yes, I'd love a job, treasury job in Asia. And he said, well, I've got one for you in Singapore. When can you start? So it took a few months. I traveled for seven months backwards and forwards between Singapore and South Africa, working those 18 hour days in both countries to make sure that we were covering everything while the powers that be decided exactly how it fits in. And then in 2015, on the 1st of January, started in Singapore with a new ambit, a whole new challenge in Asia in markets that I really knew very little about and had to start all over again. Right from the culture briefing on how to speak to people and how to act and then to understanding the regulatory landscape and how everything else in treasury worked. And then of course finding new partners that would then help me and guide me on my journey as we, as we move forward.

So you've been from that South African developing region, Singapore, far more advanced in many ways, but very culturally different. You know, you talk about the cultural fitting in and things. How did they compare and contrast between the two, would you say, in that move?

So I think between Africa and Asia there are many similarities. I think there's from an emerging market point of view, I think the regulatory landscape and the issues and the problems on the table are very much the same. I think if you look at places like Singapore and Hong Kong, I think it's far easier to integrate yourself in. You've got 264 banking institutions sitting just in Singapore alone. So you really do have the backing and the partnership that you need. But not always easy to integrate. One, on a staff level, two on a business level. When you're dealing with people within your own organization, because one, you're a foreigner, they don't necessarily trust what you have to say and it takes a little bit of time to build up that trust in that relationship where when you speak, they listen and when you give them advice and better business advice, they really start to understand and they know that you only have the best interest of the business at heart, that they will then take that advice and act on the advice that you're looking for. I think a model that I looked at, we were always wanting to be as treasurers, we wanted to be a business partner with value add. I think that was very important to us and that was the crux of what we were trying to sell, because remember, we were selling, we were functioning, we were almost like a bank to say, well guys, we're here, we're here to add value. We really want to be your business partner and this is how we're going to go about it. So those first six to nine months were very much training, educating, teaching people just exactly what treasury is because many people don't know exactly what a Treasury function is. They think, oh well, we open bank accounts and we do a little bit of forex on the side, not quite understanding the intricacies and how much more involved in the business we are. So I think that was the challenge to overcome was to set ourselves up, that the business partner knew exactly what we were, they understood that we were coming to add that value and really try and grow the business from the bottom up as well. And we were sitting side by side. If they failed, we failed. If we couldn't get them a good deal, there was a problem and we failed together. But if we succeeded or we got something right, we made a big cost saving. I think then we started to see things happening and I think that was started to come about in probably the first 12 to 15 months where they really started to see that real good value add.

And how did you get that? How did you, you know, you talk about some of the process, what were the things that you did for them that brought them into you? I mean there was the education process, you gone to the, oh, this is what treasury does. But at the end of the day, so what was it? Pure cash saving, making their lives a lot easier or what happened then?

Yeah, so I think that the first thing was perseverance. I think that every treasurer needs perseverance just to keep pushing that and pushing it and pushing it. But I think for us it was the simple part. So first from the training and the education, showing them exactly how a bad transaction or bad forex deal or bad deal in whole would affect them and how much money would cost them. We spent a lot of time on the historical data, showing them exactly how much money they had lost on deals by not doing the correct treasury things. And by things, I mean on the bank side with the cash, moving the cash, whether we needed to get cash to facilitate the deal, two, by hedging the deal correctly and then three, choosing the correct hedging mechanism because in many instances we chose a swap where we should have just done a spot or we looked at forwards and the periods were all wrong because they unfortunately got the contract Milestones incorrect. So just showing that. And the more we started to show them the movements on the bottom line, the more they started to come to us right at the beginning, before they made any decisions on their deals to then be able to facilitate, go to our partners, get the best structures and look at the best outcome that they could see. We started this way back in. Even when I was in South Africa at abb, where we really became an integral part of the team. I always used to laugh. It used to be the business person, the lawyer, and of course treasurer. And we used to be that tripartite now trying to facilitate these deals. And I brought that mentality across to Asia as well to make sure that we had that tripartite. The lawyer was sitting there, the treasurer was sitting there, and we were making good business deals together to then facilitate better business in the future.

And then you were there, what, two and a half years?

Three years? Yeah, three years. Three years at ABB in Singapore. Correct.

How come a move or what happened to facilitate that and you just outgrowing the role or where you got to.

It was that time. I think, with anything. I think 10 years was always my ultimate number. I would have liked to go much further. I think at that stage in the organization, there were a lot of changes. There were a lot of changes on the ground in the business model and where ABB was going. And I think that coupled with my boss then took the big job in Zurich and he then moved from Hong Kong out to Zurich and I was reporting back into Dubai. It was time for a change. And I think it was a good opportunity to then explore my options in the landscape in Asia and see what else was out there and then to see what opportunities and where I could add value. I think that's always important to me is to be able to add value and really be an integral part of any team that I go to. I feel that's quite important to me. It's quite important from a growth perspective. And I always want to be busy. I don't like to be bored or coming into the office where you're not adding any value. I always want to be involved in everything that's happening. And it was a great opportunity for that change.

General Mills, tell us about the group. I mean, I alluded at the top of the program to sort of some of the products, the Cheerios, Betty Crocker and stuff like that. You know, some of the listeners will have heard of the group, some will just General who maybe. Maybe explain, if you would.

Funny story. When I When I went for my interview at General Mills, I had to do exactly what you did. I had to go and see exactly what General Mills did, what their products were, how they, how they fitted into the world and how I could, of course, add value to that. Little did I know that General Mills in their heyday was into far more than just food. They went to golf apparel. They were into many different things. So it was quite a change and quite a steep learning curve on trying to move from power and infrastructure into consumable foods. I think to me it was one of the product base. Two, the economies of scale are much smaller. And for those listeners who don't know General Mills. So yes, we do the Cheerios and we do the Betty Crockers. We have great cake mixes, we do cookies, but we've also got Nature Valley bars and we've very much into healthy eating with all things to make your life much easier. We've got waffles that can be put in your microwave and cooked in 20 seconds. But I think in Asia, it was always an interesting one, is that we've got Haagenos ice cream, which is our premium brand. We've got something called Wang Chai Fairy, which, if you're ever in Asia and you're looking for a quick dumpling, it's definitely the product to go through. And then looking at things like Pillsbury dough, Betty Crocker cake mixes and that, which I think are really big products for us, it was something that I needed to learn. It was some of the products that I never tried before. Unfortunately, I'm from South Africa, so I'd never tried Cheerios before. Didn't really know much about Haagen Dazs ice cream. We always went for the cheaper brand.

A lot of those brands actually came out of Diageo back in the day. What was the structure of the Treasuries? Because Diageo, originally based in the uk, had quite an advanced. Pillsbury dough, I know was quite perhaps a slick treasury, as it were. But how was it when you were integrating with those guys or how did it, how was it structured?

Yeah, I think in the early days it was very simple. I think most of the companies had their own in house treasury departments and I wouldn't call it a very big treasury department. I think they were very small and they were doing the day to day treasury management stuff that they really needed to do. I think when a lot of that all came together, there was a big focus on building the treasury in the us. It was very important to them to make sure that they got their ducks in a row there. And I think there was a lot of time spent on building the Treasury Organization within General Mills in the US Once that had happened, I think the next smart move was then to build the Treasury Organization in Europe. And that started probably about five years ago. And they've just been on a journey now where I probably think they're probably about 5% from having a perfect treasury organization in Europe. The US has built, Europe is built. We're now on our Asia journey. We're 18 months in trying to replicate, and not always possible, but trying to replicate exactly what happens in Europe and then what happens in the US but always having that backpedal all the way back to the US where most of our standards and everything comes out of. And the last piece of the puzzle is where we're about to move into Latam to complete the circle and have a Treasury center in each of the major markets in the world.

And with your market, you oversee 11 markets or 11 countries, or how are you structured and what are the difference? Everyone talks to us about the differences. I was talking to one of our listeners, Chinese, she's based in China, talking about some of the things there. But she was saying, but when I deal with Thailand, Mike, it's totally different to deal with Taiwan and, you know, different countries she was dealing with. But also we then talked about what were also the similarities. So you know, what the pros and cons is the wrong way to say it, but actually what are the differences? What would you say are some of the similarities of it as well?

Yeah, so I think, you know, most of the markets in Asia are very similar. So, and let me, let me put a caveat onto that. So, yeah, I think most of them have got the same issues. Most of them have liquidity troubles. Most of them have got cash flow issues. Most of them are doing the wrong things at the wrong time. And it just compounds or not doing the right things at the correct time. I think that's where the similarities are. I think where the differences are is that the regulations are so different. I think the challenges in each environment, whether it be political, whether it be something else, just on the volatility of their markets. That's where the, that's where the game changes a little bit. And I think your listener was quite correct. If I'm having a discussion with China, it's very different to having a discussion with Thailand because one, the economies of scale in China are so much bigger. The regulators are really on what's happening there. And how things should work. You really need to also understand the language and the nuances that go on with that and the body languages and people speaking to you only in Mandarin and not in English that you need to really, you need to be a little bit more on your game and you need to trust your partners a little bit more both internally and externally because that's your conduit in. So you need to understand and listen to what they're saying and really make it, make an effort to get on top of what things are and also do a little bit of homework before you start putting things out there or speaking without having the complete set of facts. If you're moving in Thailand, of course Thailand's a little bit more relaxed, still have their regulations and that, but it's sometimes a little bit far easier to facilitate. One, they also speak English, which does help in the greater scheme of things things. When my second language is only Afrikaans and it's only spoken by 9 million people in the world, it doesn't really help when you can't speak Mandarin. So that's something I think is quite important. But I think the best thing is one, you need to educate yourself, two, you need to involve those third parties in order to facilitate good business and three, you need to trust the people that you're liaising with to make sure that you are getting the best of all decisions and the best of all information.

And how are you structured as a Treasury team? And this leads into, you know, your people management style and things like that. So you know how we, how are you structured? We spoke just before the show. You just said you recently recruited. What's happening? Like we'll come on to what you like as a boss, you know, because obviously you're perfect. Yeah, we know, but move on, but give us an overview.

Yeah, so I think running in Asia, where we're very lean and mean, I mean that was the whole way that we were going to set it up. So before we recruited Yowit on board now we had a treasurer sitting in India, basically looks after India and we had a Treasury person sitting in China. Unfortunately, both these individuals were not necessarily just 100% treasury on a day to day basis. So they were wearing other hats as well. So it was quite difficult to say, well guys, we've all of a sudden got a Treasury team and we're looking. And we were in China, we're in Singapore and we're in India. So what was happening in the organization is a lot of the treasury tasks were falling upon the financial people and for those out there who are financial people, treasury is normally at the bottom of their list. They first want to get the numbers out, they want to make sure the profits there, the revenues are up. And that treasury was never a real focus. And I think over time a lot of things fell through the cracks. So I think in the first six months that I arrived at General Mills, it was a lot of time getting in there, seeing what was what, and then centralizing that base straight out of Singapore, that we made all treasury decisions from a base sitting in Singapore and that anything, whether it was with regards to the banks or guarantees or loans or even opening and closing a bank account, those decisions came through Singapore. We made the correct decisions, got the correct information and then fed that back into the business. And what we could do on shore here in Singapore, we did. Now having YOI on board, now we've got an extra set of hands and we can do far more. I think as we go on our journey. Now we've just issued a cash RFP and awarded that to three banks in the region and totally changed our banking landscape landscape. And all of a sudden that's now going to give far more power back to the business, but it's also going to give far more power back to the treasury center sitting in Singapore and of course our regional hub, which sits in Singapore, where they'll now have far more access to information which they never had before, and also give them far more information to make better business decisions as we are a central hub based here in Singapore for General Mills.

When you were recruiting that role and recruiting that person, what was it were you seeking? Were you seeking someone that had a knowledge of the region, a bit like yourself when you were back South Africa, or were you just looking for the best treasury person or was it qualifications or what were the standout features for you when you were going through that campaign?

So, Mike, I think there's no shortage of talents in Asia at the moment when you're recruiting. So I think we were inundated with CVs from a vast array of candidates. So many from the banking industry who were looking to make a change, many treasurers who were looking to get into a different organization. So I think our criteria was very simple. We were looking for somebody that was hands on, who had a little bit of experience doing cash management, driving treasury and driving procedures, who was also willing to get their hands dirty, to really do the nitty gritty and build from where we were, but also somebody that we could grow and we could groom and we could really build into a good successor or use the opportunity to move them into a different market, whether it be China, whether it be India, or maybe even back to Hong Kong. And we could use a secondary hub. And I think those were the keys that we were at looking, looking for. We were looking for somebody that was young, highly motivated, but also could work alone, could do the things and definitely didn't need to be Molly coddled at every single turn. I was on a. I think the word is micromanaged if you want to look at that. Most bosses are micromanagers and we like to take control. And for me as well, it's very difficult losing that control because I think somebody comes on board and all of a sudden, well, I don't have to do that. Let me give it to somebody else. And how quickly you relinquish that power that you have. So that's where we. So we were looking for a well rounded individual who had some experience, had a little bit of a CV that could be built on and then somebody that we could then grow and really expand within the role as we as treasury grow in the region and of course as it grows in the global organization as well.

So Chris, just talking there about looking at the role itself, it seems you have a greater focus than maybe some treasurers do on things such as trade, export, finance, supply chain rather than just being product focused and shifting boxes of cereal and everything else. It sounds like you're much more involved in the business than perhaps some other treasurers get involved. Is that correct?

Yes, Mike, I think you've hit the nail on the head there. I think from our point of view, because our treasury is so new and it's in its infancy that we've really tried to put ourselves in every aspect of the business. We were instrumental in rolling out supply chain in the region when we looked at that in 2017, 2018, and we've really tried to integrate ourselves into every facet of the business. We're heavily involved in the working capital, looking at the tpo, looking at the dso, really trying to get down and help business understand what is going on. So to me it's a great opportunity because it's something where you can really get your teeth into it. You've really got those opportunities to expand your knowledge base as well. And especially coming into a new organization, a new environment, it's a great way to learn the business. And as I say to Yuri as well, it's a great time now to really get your hands dirty and understand the mechanisms that are happening, especially In Asia, where the business is growing, we're really seeing some good growth opportunities in our markets and things are happening constantly. There's no dull period at the moment. Whether we're looking at new financing, whether we look at new facilities that are needed, whether we're looking at hedging or anything that goes with it. We really are at the cutting edge of and at the forefront of that decision making process at the moment.

And where do you see it then? It leads us very neatly into the future. Where do you see treasury not only regionally but maybe even globally developing from here? What do you see as the future things coming down the line sort of thing in the next two to three, five years?

Yeah. So I think for us we're on a three year strategy at the moment we're into 18 months. I think for us the sky's the limit. We're at that foundation at the moment. We're on block one, I think to this now. We will then add a Treasury management system. We will then add a whole new Forex product so that we can then as a global treasury unit now start following the sun. So the Asian market will be the first eight hours and constantly shift all the way back until the US opens on that as well. And then workflows really getting things out to make things better. I had a conversation with our treasury in Europe the other day who's really considering the idea of an in house bank and I think that's a great opportunity. Having come from ABB and seen it work and based in Zurich. There really is some great opportunity to be able to explore those options and then of course build everything in. And I think as the business grows and as the business diversifies as well, I think there's other avenues to explore. We really haven't even looked at any acquisitions or anything in Asia at the moment. It's pretty much only been in the US markets. I think we're going to see this is just the tip of the iceberg at the moment as we, as we continue our journey. I won't say start our journey, I'll say continue our treasury journey in the.

Region and you know, planning for those challenges yourself in your career. You know, what, what are you doing to sort of upskill yourself? What are you focusing on? Obviously you're a busy man, you got all stuff going on, but you know, how are you thinking? Right, this is what I need to do because I noticed that you speak at a number of the conferences, you're out there learning the new ideas and you know, we often Encourage people to sort of try and not just be inwardly focused on their region and everything else but you do a number of other things and moderate involved in the local treasurers or act, I think. Is that right?

Yeah, that's correct. I think Mike, the biggest thing there I think is to stay relevant. I think it's always an important thing. I think so many treasurers find themselves sometimes size shifted or the treasury isn't relevant within the organization at the moment. I think that's the biggest thing is to keep motivated and is to continue to self improve. I think that's very important. And that's one of the things, you know, to me my first step when I got to Singapore was to network and to try and meet as many people as I could. We did that through the conferences or using opportunity, using ACTS as a great springboard to introduce yourself to other treasurers and to continue to learn because everybody's got new ideas and I think the more that we continue to speak to one another as we continue to share ideas, it's a great opportunity for that growth that you can then keep expanding your knowledge base because unfortunately treasurers will tell you that they know everything but we don't. We really always trying to learn from people as much as we can so that we can stay relevant and keep adding that extra for the business. So that we can keep saying but guys, what about this? Or we've just heard this great story now. How can we then use this in our, in our own environments and in our own work challenges to be able to get to the next level. And I think that's very important is not to just sit around and think, well, you know, yes, things are changing and I don't want to change because it's. Or maybe it's a little bit too quick or it's a little bit too slow. I think you always need to be rebuilding yourself and reshaping yourself that you can continue to adapt. I heard a story the other day that in 10 years time all treasures will have disappeared because we'll be taken.

Over by AI don't start me on that.

To me that's a non starter. I think there's so much more. The treasure will evolve. I think we've all seen treasury evolve over the last 10, 15 years. The new age treasurer will evolve. Yes. So somebody will be doing all the back, back end crunching of numbers and all that data. But somebody needs to read it, somebody needs to get out of it, somebody needs to put it out to business and really have a look at it. And give them the best solutions or the best ideas, maybe in a limited format. But treasurers will evolve and we have been over the last few years and I'll continue to see that in the future. And you and I will have the same conversation in the next 10 years and all that will have changed is some of the topics of conversation and how we've seen, seen things shift a little bit or how our job focus has changed from where it is to where it is then. And we'll take it like that and we'll say, well, yes, we've evolved and we've changed, but things have still stayed the same.

And the fact is that, you know, this will probably be by the time it's published about our 40th podcast that we've put out there. And one of the key things I've noticed, and I would summarize it and very accurately, as you said there, is that you're not going to be retired in 10 years, put out to pasture, as it were. I think that treasurers are frontiersmen, as it were, and women. You're at the forefront of a lot of the technology and a lot of the things that coming through that all these different things are coming, blockchain, crypto, everything, AI and all this. But you're in some ways very much a buffer for the CFO that this technology comes to you. They're asking you to filter it and say, right, which of these bits are you going to filter through to me and are going to be of value to our company? And a lot of I talked to Royston DaCosta the other day. He's very technology focused, but he was also talking about the added value of IT and everything else. I think that's the key thing when people talk about the AI and the other stuff that you guys are the filter and you know what you're doing.

Yeah, I mean, Mike, for me, the treasurer, he's the ultimate employee because he's involved in every facet of the business. He gets involved in every decision making process that happens. He's adding some values, adding that extra information. He's also trying to look at things as costs and long based or long term outcomes, if you want to call it that. And he's always involved. So to me there's always going to be that need. So the treasurer has evolved from being a number cruncher, where we did trades and we did everything else, we opened the bank accounts to really now being an integral part of any organization. Whether he sits on a board board or whether he's just Making decisions that are helping the CFO make better business decisions for each of the individual parties that they needed. But, you know, somebody said to me, you know, treasurers would always make great CEOs because they've been there, they've seen it, they've done it, and they can really add some value to any organization because they've been through all the tough times, if you want to call it that.

Yeah. And they've got that outward focus as well. As we round up today's show, again, as always, Chris has given permission and if you want to connect with him, his LinkedIn profile will be within the show notes. But what I just wanted to do, if someone does go on there, they look at your LinkedIn profile, they say, actually, I want a Treasury career that is like Chris's, you know, that's perhaps taken me from South Africa or wherever you might be to then Asia and then where, who knows where next if someone is looking at that and there was a key to success or one thing that you've drawn out when we spoke to Mark at Johnson Controls about perseverance and just going for every opportunity for you. Just to summarize today, and as we wrap up, what would you say is your key to success, as it were?

Yeah. So I think, Mike, there, it's very simple. I think it's self belief, it's motivation in oneself and always having the belief that there's always something better and that you can do better. I use the word perseverance very, very early on in the podcast today, and I think that's very important as well. We've all been through those opportunities where you keep getting stopped at these certain doors where you really want to open it and just keeps closing. And I think that's the opportunity where you really want to keep knocking and seeing where it can take you. So many times in my life, people have said, well, you can't do that. That's not for you, or that's not something where you can go. To me, that's not something that really impeded me. It just made me more focused on where I wanted to get to. For me, treasury and how it all came. And the great growth that I've had in treasury was very much by luck. And I was in the right place at the right time, which is great. But I also managed to stay there, move out of South Africa into Asia and then continue to build the treasury career. The more I enhanced my knowledge base in that as well. So I think to everyone out there, I think it is. It's a lot learning. It's something that you can continue to educate yourself, you can continue to build yourself and there's always opportunities and there's always people that are looking to have those opportunities to give people those opportunities if we want to say that.

Brilliant. Well amazing. Thank you for today's show, Chris. All that remains, you know, bar the thank you for that say good luck in the World cup later on this year there'll be a World cup we'll be looking forward to I'm sure that be some choice emails exchanged between the two of us but we look forward to September moving on. But no, great show. Thank you very much Chris. I think the listeners are going to get a lot from that and if you want to connect with him, he's there. We'll put it in the show notes and fantastic. Thanks very much.

Oh thank you Mike. And thank you for your time. Perfect.

Thanks very much.