Exploring Financial Risk Management in Different Regions with Roger Aguilar

Welcome to this week's Treasury Career Corner podcast where I interview treasury professionals about their treasury careers. Each and every week I talk to treasurers about how they built their careers, where they are now, and where they see both themselves and the treasury profession. Going to next this week's show. Delighted to be joined by Roger Aguilar. He's the head of treasury for a company called Oceaneering International. You might have heard of them. I wanted to look them up myself. They're a engineering services company, so subsea engineering, applied technology, lots of the bottom of the seabeds to blue chip oil companies and exploration companies. Roger will explain a bit more about those and perhaps how treasury works there. But Roger's had this incredible experience throughout. He's done lots of different roles. He's worked in consulting, which we talked about with some of our clients in the past. But logistics, we've got high tech, we've got a number of different things. So what I'd like to do is perhaps explore, as we go through with Roger, more about the differences, perhaps with some of those industries, particularly for Treasury. But he'll explain more. He's originally Mexican by background. So let's take you back to the days when you first started in Mexico and then discovered finance and then went into treasury, the world of treasury, as it were. So, Roger, over to you. Take us back to the dim, distant past. Over to you.

Thank you, Mike. Thank you for the introduction. Was very nice. My pleasure to be here today with you. Yes, I'm definitely more than happy to talk about my career and talk about also as many questions as you have on that regard. So let's get started with my early days. I started actually my career in banking. I spent about 10 years in corporate and investment banking in a couple of banks in Mexico. I'm originally from Mexico, from Mexico City, very large city. So in those days I used to work for Santander bank and BBVA Bank. Both of them are the largest banks in the country and some of the largest banks in the region as well, in the Latin American region. The work that I used to do there was as a banker for the retail industry and the automotive industry as well, as I said, for about 10 years. And after that, well, at some point in my career as a banker, decided I wanted to make a move to somewhere else in finance. And when I was trying to make a definition, I had the opportunity to join a multinational company in Mexico, treasury senior manager or treasury manager. And that company was Merck, which is part of the healthcare industry, a very large company, very Sophisticated as well. So my early days in treasury were with Merck.

You started with Merck, but you came from banking and a transition to Treasury. Had you heard about treasury before or what was your introduction? Oh yeah, I want to work in finance. Treasury, you have this finance background. But what was treasury, what was the role like?

Yes, definitely. Actually in those days in corporate banking, used to deal with customers, to work with customers in transactions in the debt and capital markets space. And I was used to deal with treasurers and CFOs as well, some multinational companies in Mexico. So that's why when I started looking around at these type of roles, these type of responsibilities and my interaction on a day to day basis as a banker was basically with, as I said, I mean with treasurers and cfo, depending on the transaction and the size of the company. So then that's why I decided to make that first move into the treasury function. I thought that it was pretty close to my days in banking as well. As I said, my first company was Merck doing Treasury just for Mexico credit and collections. Nine months after I joined the company, I had a very nice offer from the headquarters, from the treasurer in New Jersey. That offer was to relocate myself and my family and go to New Jersey to take on the position of treasury manager for Latin America. In that moment, it was important. The background I had of Mexico, but also the language. The language was something that helped me a lot to take on that position. I was able to close some gaps that the people in the headquarters had with the communication with the people in the region in Latin America. And although I was not fluent in Portuguese, but at least I had certain knowledge about the language. So I was able to communicate with the people in Brazil as well. So that made my life easier, my early days in treasury easier. I actually performed that role for about three years, increasing responsibility, increasing responsibilities and duties as well. Was mostly focused on cash management to some extent in foreign exchange as well, you know, trying to understand the region and to a lesser extent in capital markets. Because all the financing was basically in the US level, we were not really doing much in Latin America with that role.

And you're sort of, you know, servicing and helping and coaching Latin America. And again, there'll be people listening today and they have to do the same. How did you make a success of it? Okay, the language, that was a good thing. But what were the pressures of the, you know, on the businesses out there? How did you satisfy that and coach and help those guys?

Yes, well, actually for me, the first part was first of all about understanding or getting closer to the business model, the business model the company had. That was something very important to understand because that helped me to understand the needs the company had in the region. And also a very, very important part was to understand the local markets. So then what I did was to leverage on the relationship we had with the strong banks in the region, with very large banks. The main banks in those days for us were Citibank, you know, the usual banks in region, Citibank, Santander, bbva and have developed a very close relationship with them and tried to get part of their business intelligence, market intelligence, to get a better understanding on the region. So in terms of the local products, the local needs, but also trying to understand the business model in the company. So in a way that I could make sure that I was basically adding value to the. Seeking to add value to the company. And also that value was perceived by the company folks in the region as well.

And what were their main problems? Was it currency or what are the. If you were to sit down with one of those guys, you're sitting there and they go, my nightmare is this. And how did you then help them or coach them through it and things?

Yes, actually the two largest markets for the company were Mexico, Brazil, and probably the third one was Colombia. In those days, the main challenges were related to the currency. So currency and sometimes collections with certain customers, but probably to a bigger extent was about currency, understanding local rules, understanding also potential liquidity issues we were facing in some of these subsidiaries, but for the most part was about fx. To a lesser extent was about cash management. The rules in Mexico, even in those days were pretty relaxed in that regard. And Brazil was changing very oftentimes in Brazil, changing rules, understanding those changes was very important. And for the rest of the region, depending on the country, they were actually smaller markets for the company. So it was really about focus, focusing on probably three or four markets, understanding local rules, developing that business knowledge, market knowledge. I think that was critical for the success.

And how do you de risk then the currency exposure or try and keep those under control? What was the very active in the FX markets or what was the sort of. Without going into too much confidential Merck information, but did you sweep it all or how did you actively get rid of the risk?

Absolutely. I think that it was the same situation as the rest of the companies in the same industry phase, because in those markets we were very large exposed to local currency. We had very large customers in the market and to a very good extent was related to the government. So the government Buying in local currency. So we were exposed to the local currency. And that was in my role as a Treasury manager for the region, was about working with our FX team as well in treasury, trying, seeking to mitigate. Well, first of all, understanding the risk and seeking to mitigate that risk. The company had a, a formal and very large hedging program in place. So it was a matter of expanding that program. In those days we had a hedging program for Mexico, but it was about going into Brazil. And that understanding of the local market was critical for that.

And then you'd had this time, you three years in the US and then the UK came knocking. You thought, ah, this lovely weather in the States and everything else, let's come to England where apparently it rains all the time. It's a very sunny day at the moment, but actually it does rain a lot sometimes. But how come what the move to the UK happened? What happened there?

Yeah, Mike, I can tell you that probably these two years in the uk, in London basically were probably some of the best years in my life. One day in the office I got that offer because gentleman who was my peer sitting in London, he was retiring. So I was offered to basically do the same type of work, but now based out of London, covering Europe, Middle east and Africa. For me, it was a promotion, at the end of the day was a promotion because those were the most important markets for the company, well, besides the US and Canada. So it was a fantastic experience. But I can tell you that if I had to pick one thing to say about that experience was that I had an international exposure that was very valuable in my career. It's very valuable even nowadays quite some years after that experience. It was fantastic from every single angle I can think of.

And you made this transition so you were obviously Mexico and that's where you're from. And then the US and then you did the UK and then we'll come on to in a minute that you went back to the us but talk me through how you saw how treasury was different. Finance obviously, but how was treasury different and how did you guys approach it?

Before I moved to London, I had the idea that treasury is very similar pretty much everywhere. And probably the factor, the difference, the treasury work in one place from another place, it's just about the local rules and so forth and so on. But something that I learned from that basically from that experience in London, also from my days in Mexico and so was not just to factor the technical component of this role, of the treasury role, it was also about looking into Leadership skills, looking into adding value to the company, looking into understanding the business model, understanding the. The local business as well, to the extent it was possible, and understanding also the local rules. So I can tell you that from my experience, the treasury management or the skill set that I required to perform in that part of the world, basically in Europe and more in Middle east and Africa, was different from the one that I required in the us. They are different markets. They require. From a technical perspective as well, they require a little bit different skills to understand or the knowledge about certain specific products. So I had to learn all that, all that part, and it was fantastic. So that was part of the. I think that was something that made experience so good at the end of the day.

Yeah. And I was interviewed myself the other day and I talked about that. The great thing with treasury is an international skill and you can apply your trade anywhere. So when I'm talking to a treasurer who's in Asia, PAC or Middle east, and then through Europe and then across the us, you know, you comply your trade because you're globally focused and outwardly focused. Now, you did all that US stuff, and then UK and then you came back to the us. What sort of attracted you back? Or was it just time to move back or what happened?

Yes, yes. Actually, what happened, Mike, was that before I moved to London, I got my green card in the us, my permanent resident status. So I had to, at some point, I had to come back to the US in order to preserve that status, because what I wanted, at the end of the day was to apply for the US citizenship. So I had that conversation with Merck. The plans Merck had for me were slightly different. And also there were some discussions about, you know, the compensation package. And in those days, I was an expat, so conversation along those lines. So I decided then to come back to the US and after discussing with Merck, decided that it would be better to try something else, something different. I got a fantastic opportunity. I got an offer from a company whose name is Jabil, Jabil Circuit, based out of Florida in the Tampa Bay area, I can tell you. I mean, fantastic experience as well. I was very lucky to come back with that company. So they helped me a lot with that transition.

So you came back to Jabil, maybe explain for this. I know, because I'm a very happy customer of Jabil and the headsets and everything else, but maybe you can explain that business and things.

Yes, absolutely. What Jabil does is they are a very large manufacturing company in the. I would say the specialized manufacturing Space with several divisions going from technology, going through aerospace and defense, in medical devices, for instance. So they are a very large company with a number of manufacturing sites all across the globe, mainly focused in Asia because the supply chain is basically there, but also with large facilities and research centers in Europe and Latin America to a lesser extent, and the US as well. Obviously, what I did in jville was I actually went to the company as treasury director for cash management and capital markets. The capital markets part was mainly because of my background in banking and part of the work that I did in.

Merck as well, and then again made this move from pharmaceuticals and things like that to this technology group. How was treasury different?

Yes, it's very different. Very different. Because in technology, in manufacturing, working capital management is key. Cash flow and strong cash position is key, is a key factor for success. The margins are much lower than in the healthcare or pharmaceutical industry. So taking care of accounts payable, accounts receivable, but not just taking care. I mean, truly becoming a business partner and understanding the working capital management is key. I'm not saying that that is not key. In the healthcare industry, it is key as well. However, margins are higher. It's a slightly different position, but in manufacturing that part is key.

And sometimes again, I'll talk to a treasurer and they might have stayed within similar industries. But you've done this move. So you did pharma, you did technology and then you went to logistics. I know we're sort of rocketing through, but what I wanted to sort of try and get down to is, you know, and then you did Deloitte. So we'll go through that now as we talk. But you've got this fascinating. This is why we got you on the podcast. Because, you know, again, sometimes I talk someone. Yeah, I've just done this industry and then this, you know, just done a couple. You've done these. You've seen all the different dials, if you like, with different things. You just talk there about lower margin business. I'm thinking, oh, Gemma. Massive global corporate. Yeah, it is. But the fact is if. If something goes wrong, it can go wrong massively because it's a very narrow margin then logistics. How come that move or was it location or what happened?

Yes, actually. Well, I completely agree with what you just said. I mean, about the margins. One day I was basically sitting in the Tampa Bay area and I got a phone call from a recruiter in Houston, in Houston, Texas, presenting me a position that would potentially. It was an assistant treasurer position, but eventually could become the treasurer for the company. So that's why I shown interest and I decided to move to Houston, from Tampa Bay to Houston and join company named SIVA Logistics. Siva's headquarters are in the Netherlands. They are a European corporation, but in those days they were private equity owned. So in those days I was reporting to executive VP treasurer who was a private equity person coming from the private equity firm, decided to make the move to Houston and basically I was the one running the treasury function from cash management, going through FX and in capital markets. To a very good extent, private equity is completely different from a public company. And, and if I compare CIBA Logistics to jbil for instance, in terms of the margins, they are somewhat similar. In terms of the need of truly controlling the working capital, they are very similar. But in terms of the requirements from the stakeholders and the shareholders as well, they were completely different. The focus in private equity firms is different from the public companies.

What do you mean different? Explain that to me again. I know, because I talk to a lot of treasurers, but again, some of the guys listening will say, well, hang on, surely it's just privately held, it's Treasury, I'm doing the treasury stuff. But again, and also sometimes private equity, I was discussing this with a client yesterday that some private equity, they'll come in and you'll be part of their portfolio, they leave the company alone, they do sort of let you carry on and they know your portfolio company, you'll throw off loads of cash, you know, be very successful and they'll just leave you in place. Thanks very much. And then other private equity, they come in there, right, give us all your cash, you know, let's load you up with debt. Let's, you know, get as much as we can. Really, you've got to run it really tightly. You know, what was the sort of, you know, what was it like? What was your experience of it?

Yes, actually, for the, for this private equity company, I mean, highly leveraged cash flow was pretty much keeping control on the cash flows, on the cash position and therefore on working capital as well was key. The information requirements from the, basically from the shareholders were in that direction. So we, for instance, about cash forecasting, in order to meet those requirements, we had a weekly cash forecast that was updated every week by every single subsidiary on the globe. So the cash forecasting exercise was massive in order to get a better understanding about the business and what was happening in those days and about the margins as well. So that part was very intensive. In a private company, you get rid of all these reporting requirements for filing the 10Ks and 10Qs and so forth and so on. But then you get other type of requirements coming directly from the shareholder. The interaction, the communication with them with the private equity firm is constant, is also very intensive and is all the time required. In terms of reporting. The requirements are very different, but at the end of the day, it's a matter, in my mind, it's a matter of understanding the business, understanding the business model and for, in my case, as a Treasury person, based on that, to add value, try to add value, try to start presenting things that were meaningful for them, for the management team, also for the. I mean, to some extent, to the board of directors. So they could have the. That was required, as I said, I mean for the private equity firm in terms of cash, cash flows, working capital. So just provide them the visibility that was required and getting the understanding about the business.

So, Roger, when I've spoken to some of my clients, they've struggled working within firms that have private equity sort of holding or held by that because there's a lot of reporting and cash is really super king sort of thing. And they've gone on about it. But you seem to enjoy it or thrive in that environment. Maybe just explain how did you feel about it? What are your thoughts?

To be completely honest with you, Mike, before I joined that firm, Siva Logistics, I heard similar comments from other people in the industry and other peers. My own experience was not that bad. My own experience was good in general. I understand that, yes. That situation of being in a position to provide either information on cash balances, cash flows, cash forecasting, et cetera, pretty much every day, that was a reality. However, I think we were very lucky because we have systems in place. We had a very good treasury workstation in place that enabled us to answer some of these questions or most of these questions. So I think that from that perspective, we had the tools in place that helped us to do our job, basically. So that helped me a lot. But I agree that information requirements are sometimes are very intensive, I would say all the time. So that's a reality.

And he did it in an intense period for sort of two and a half years. As if you hadn't been challenged enough, you joined the dark side, as we say, of consulting. I'm only joking. A lot of my clients are consulting clients, but that was a bit of a shift as well. So you've done a lot of straight corporate roles to then a Deloitte position. Tell us about that.

And actually going into Deloitte, I would like just to elaborate a Little bit on the reasons of why I left Siva. And as I mentioned before, CVA's headquarters were in the Netherlands, in Amsterdam. One of the reasons why relocated temporarily the treasury finance function of Houston was because the company in those days were pursuing to go for an ipo, but for different reasons. After a couple of years, basically the private equity firm made the decision of delaying that decision. So they decided to relocate the headquarters back to Amsterdam. And although I had an offer to go with them to Amsterdam, well, there was a family situation that I decided not to move. So I decided to stay in the us so that's why I joined Deloitte. I can tell you there are no more than good things that I have to say that I can say about Deloitte. I mean, Deloitte is a fantastic firm. It's a fantastic place to work, fantastic people. They actually supported me very much in that transition because that was my first interaction. I would say as a consultant, I was a subject matter expert, but not the consultant. So the training that they provided to me in terms of trying to develop all those skills was basically fantastic, I would say, out of this world in general terms. So my experience in consulting was great. As a such, I had the opportunity to meet treasurers, assistant treasurers, and it was an interesting position because I had that sort of discussion with a couple of treasurers, basically saying, I was basically in your shoes few months ago. So I understand what you are talking about, what you mean. And my recommendation or my thought or my advice would be this, this and that, if that makes sense to you. So I had very close discussions with them. And I think that the fact that I was a practitioner before helped me a lot. After a few months with Deloitte, I faced a family situation that decided to move into a different role, to leave Deloitte, because I mean, you know, as a consultant, the traveling is massive. So I was basically traveling 90 plus percent of the time. So it was, it was really tough for, for myself and my family. And that was the main reason of why I decided to give up on that one.

I'm just going into that experience just very briefly, just what, what was the best and worst you saw? You know, if someone's there and, you know, you don't have to name names. You can name them if you want, but I wouldn't, you know, what was the best kind of treasury and treasurers you saw out there on the road and what was the worst ones? Which treasurers should be looking at themselves deeply in a mirror saying, right, perhaps you're doing that wrong, you've seen it from their perspective, now you're out of it.

You're able to, yeah, honestly, in that role. The best, what I saw were treasurers wanting and pursuing to become truly business partners all across the company and having visibility and getting the knowledge about the business and understanding the company and understanding the industry and being open for having that sort of discussions about operating model and about best practices, et cetera. So that is the best that I saw as a consultant. The worst was probably the opposite. I mean, guys trying to stay in their own silos, the traditional treasury silo that sometimes is perceived as an extension of the accounts payable department, just trying to stay in their offices, at their desk without sharing information with other people, with their peers in the company. So I think that these are kind of the two ends of the spectrum that I saw as a consultant. And there were a lot of people obviously in the middle. You have halfway or leaning towards one side or so. But yeah, that was kind of in general what I saw as a consultant.

And then you, as you say, the travel, which I've heard a number of times actually with a couple of good clients and friends and things like that, where they just said it's, you know, it's great, you get this amazing experience. But the travel just, you know, is such a challenge, you know, unless you're a single person traveling around, but family life and everything. So you then joined Oceaneering, interesting business. Tell us a bit about that and what's the treasury like and what are you trying to bring to the treasury there?

Yes, definitely. Actually I joined oceaneering in 2017, which was an interesting year because the oil price was still down, super down in those days. The company, at that point, the company had been facing a couple not very good years, not just the company, but in general the industry as a whole. So joining this company for me has been about coming to truly make a Treasury transformation. Something that I actually, when I joined the company that I received was that the company was to a very good extent, old fashioned, lacking of systems, lacking of processes, lacking of many things and not blaming on anyone in the company or so. But it was a different world. The world they had in, let's say in 2015, 2014 and before. So it was the world of oil price of over $100 and so forth and so on. So it was a completely different sit when I came on board was the world of the oil price in the 40s, 50s, trying to hit the $60 or so. So it's a completely different Scenario in terms of margins, in terms of market share. And so. So for me, as a newcomer to the industry and obviously to the company, the first step was about understanding the industry, understanding the market, understanding internal relationships, understanding the different business lines and then start from there, understanding the needs and coming up with a roadmap for the treasury transformation. Sorry to interrupt you.

That's right. No, no, sorry to interrupt you, but you're talking about there, the cash is coming in and as you say, different prices and things like that, but when you come in from a treasurer perspective, you know, what are you looking to do? What's your, you know, again, there'll be people listening and they're about to step into new roles and things like that. I know when I spoke to Joel Campbell, H and R Block, and one of the key things came through from that podcast was a very forward focused CFO who just said, I don't want you to do anything. So, no, hang on, you're paying me. He said, no, no, don't you make any changes for the first quarter. The first quarter, you just come in, you assimilate, you sort of feel this stuff and get to know everyone. He did that and it really stood him in good stead. When you're coming in, you've got this great breadth of experience, you've literally stepped out of consulting, you used to hitting the ground running. Boom. Right, what do we do? But how did you approach that? What were the key things? What's on your treasury checklist?

Yes, well, my checklist, the number one was visibility. Have the visibility that it was required in terms of cash management effects. Also visibility on the banking relationships, I mean, towards capital markets and debt management. Something that, for me, in my checklist that was also on the top, was about the cash position, trying to preserve a strong cash position, understanding working capital in this company as soon as possible. Which basically leads into the discussion about understanding the business and developing those relationships with the business, with the commercial people, with the heads of the divisions. So for me, that part was key. When I joined the company, we were at the moment where our rating was being reviewed by Moody's and Sandra and Poor's, so sending out those indications that we would keep our strong cash position, which was those days, and looking into working capital management as well. That part in my mind was key. The second part is for myself as the treasury person, to have the visibility that it was required in order to, well, first of all make a diagnostic on where we were, where the actions that were required in that moment. And upon that, I prepared a roadmap for what I call the treasury transformation in the company. But the treasury transformation for me in those days was, and based on my first analysis was not just about adopting the traditional products and saying, well, we don't have a cash pool, we need a cash pool. We don't have intercompany netting, we need netting. It was truly about trying to understand the business needs and say, okay, is the cash pool going to add value to the company? Well, we really need to analyze that and determine if this is something that we require because it is not just about the cash pool itself. As I mentioned, the company was lacking of systems, for instance. So it was also about implementing a Treasury management system and start having this type of discussion. So it was little by little, but first of all taking control on the items that were on top of that list. And for me, the main one in those days was about we need to preserving a strong cash position and understanding working capital here.

And obviously that's a key thing with the group and things. And you've seen lots of treasury change. We talk about this a lot in the episode. And technology coming along. What do you see are the big things coming along for you guys? You're obviously the front end of technology a lot of the time. But where do you see treasury developing to and what's your sort of role in that, if you like?

Yes. Well, in this industry and company, we are in the process of recovering basically the industry as a whole. So the expectations are that the oil price starts going up little by little. So upon that we expect that the recovery will start and then as part of that we truly expect, I mean from a Treasury perspective, to start migrating from where we are, which is with a lot of manual processes and some manual products, start moving more into automation, start moving more into seeking for efficiencies and controlling the cost in a better way. So I think that I have the opportunity to compare also the treasury management in this company, slash this industry against other industries that I have worked for. And I think we have some long hanging fruit, we have some quick wins, but also to some extent we need to invest in that and we need to invest money and we need to invest time from the people. We need bandwidth for that. So we have faced some constraints in the past couple of years, but we have a plan in place and we have a plan that we expect. We launched actually that plan some time ago, but we are developing that plan little by little because we're trying to be very prudent, very conservative, not overspending Especially at this moment.

And have you got a Treasury team that support you in this? How many? And how is treasury structured within Oceaneering as well?

Yes, actually, I have a small team, Mike. We have a very lean instructor, not just in treasury, but as a company. And that has been the result of these past three, four years of, I would say, difficult times in the industry. So my team nowadays are three people plus myself. So we are four people in total across the globe, and the four of us are in Houston. So that is an interesting limitation because on one hand we have a centralized treasury function in one place, but on the other hand we're a multinational company with presence pretty much in all the regions across the globe. So we don't have that regional presence. And sometimes that interaction with the local and regional teams is difficult and also to some extent, and in some countries with the local banks, for instance. So we need to have some sort of remote control for that relationship.

And I said at the. As I said on every week's show, as we approach the end of today, you've got this great depth of different industries, different experiences, different countries. So you can draw from all of those different aspects, if you like, just looking at yourself and looking back over. We'll put your LinkedIn profile in the show notes so people can potentially connect to you if you think it's right for you and right for them and everything else. But they can look through and they can say, do you know what? That looks great. You know, making the move from Mexico through to the us, then the uk, then back to the US and pharma through to technologies, logistics, consulting. You've got all these different combinations which there's a lot of treasurers I talk to, you know, have only moved in two different industries and you've got five or six with yourself. What's the sort of advice you might give to the listeners today that if they're looking for success in treasury, what would you put yours down to? What would you give to a Treasury analyst thinking, right, not sure my next move. Oh, actually, Roger said this. What would you think?

Probably my advice would be, well, first of all, keep learning. Especially nowadays, the world is changing fast. The trends are changing fast, fast. New products, new institutions, new rules, et cetera. To the extent it is possible, allocate part of your time to keep learning to stay yourself in the market. Try to get access to. And sometimes it is not necessarily required to invest a lot of money for that. It's a matter of meeting kind of the right people or leveraging on the relationships that you already have with banks and with some other institutions, people in other institutions or even in certain websites or so or podcasts as well. So try to leverage on that. So you keep learning all the time, keep your up to speed. Another advice would be for the industry, where you are working on. Understand the industry, understand the company, understand the business model, develop those internal relationships that will enable you to, at the end of the day, to add value. Try to add value, try to prioritize in a way that your priorities are aligned to the company's priorities are aligned to the company's objectives. So I think that is very important in my work as a consultant. It was very important. Interesting to me to see that the company's priorities, the company's targets, the CFO targets, where he has his own list, and then the treasurer had something different. So getting that alignment is very important to go to have the same mission, to work on the same vision as well. That part I think is very important.

Amazing advice and just I'm scribbling notes as we talk here. So work on your relationships, both internal and external. That's key. That's critical, as you've said there. But actually then what I think is interesting, as you say, learning not just yourself and your own thing, but, you know, try and learn and then align yourself to the company values. Would that be right and sort of look to the future?

Definitely, yes, absolutely. Get aligned. I mean, everyone at the end of the day needs to go towards the same place, probably in different ways with different using different tools, different processes or so. But at the end of the day, the ultimate goals are common for everyone in the company.

Company just do the same and you've reached those common goals. Different routes and paths to get to there, but yeah, that's the way to do it. Well, Roger, I knew it would be amazing. It was just. Thank you for your time today because you've got this incredible background and different industries and wanted to sort of touch into those and we dug into some of them and yeah, it was great as I thought it would be. Thank you for your time today. We'll put Roger's LinkedIn profile, which you'll see is very diverse in the show notes. And if you want to sort of connect to him and he wants to connect to you, then do that. But what remains for me is, Roger, thank you for your time today and look forward to catching up when I'm over in the US later on in the year. That'd be great.

Definitely. Mike, thank you so much. Thank you for this opportunity. I appreciate this very much. And thanks to your team as well.

Thank you, sir. Thanks very much.