Exploring the Evolution of Treasury with Irene Atkins

Hello, it's Mike Richards here from the treasury recruitment company. I hope you're enjoying the Treasury Career Corner. If you are great news, perhaps you give us a rating on itunes or wherever you consume your podcast content. This means that even more treasury professionals can benefit from finding out, or by finding out about how treasurers have achieved their career goals. The link to rate our show will list at the bottom of our show notes. And please remember as well, the show itself is as much about you as it is about us. There are specific questions you want us to ask or this feedback you want to give. Please drop me an email. My direct email is mikeresuryrecruitment.com inventively enough. But anyway, that's enough from me. Let's get on with the show. Welcome to this week's Treasury Career Corner podcast where I interview treasury professionals about their roles, how they built their careers, where they are now, when they see both themselves and the treasury profession going next. In this week's episode, I'm delighted to be joined by Irene Atkins, the head of Treasury. ASOS.com ASOS are a global online fashion retailer with over 85,000 product lines across women's wear, menswear, footwear, accessories, jewelry and beauty, all ready for Christmas. Founded in 2000 in London, the company is primarily aimed at young adults with over and a half thousand new product lines being introduced each and every week. In today's podcast, I'll go through how Irene first got started in treasury, the challenges she faces in her current position and where next for her and ASOS and the group as they continue to grow. Now, Irene, you originally started your career as a training accountant for Grand Met. How come you ended up moving into Treasury?

Well, Mike, it was totally by accident really. I started my career as a trainee accountant, so I'd spent some time with Gran Met that subsequently became part of Diageo with the merger with Guinness. So I've done the traditional accounting roles, your accounts payable, accounts receivable, banking type activities and payroll, petty cash, that type of thing. And it just came to the point where I needed to move on really, just to grow and develop. But I must say some of the skills I learned then have helped me in my latter career, especially when you start working with shared service centres and things like that, which are very process orientated. So even that very young grounding has helped me. My latter career, I actually ended up as a Treasury accountant at Armstrong purely I got offered two jobs at the same time. One was an accountant for Motorola and one was a Treasury accountant for Armstrong. Armstrong was closer to home, so that's where I ended up. So very quickly I worked out or I found myself increasingly interested in what treasury had to offer. Accounting for me felt very sort of past tense. And after things had gone on, whereas treasury was moving more towards the front end, it was thinking about your payments, your foreign exchange exposures. Even at a very, very sort of young stage of my career, I was lucky to work for not only that organization but many after that. We will talk about that gave me broad experience in the treasury function.

But then you made the move to the sort of the larger corporate. John Eaton.

Yes, I joined as a what, what I would call now a domestic cash manager. So I was probably about 22 at that point. This was before children, so it was looking after UK activities mainly sort of cash position in that type of thing. It grew into a European role and then I was lucky enough to be matched with a new boss that became one of my mentors actually. And Will Spiniac, he then went on to work for ACT as well. So he was great in engineering myself at that point in time from a sort of domestic to a European cash manager. And then I got involved with netting systems and foreign exchange dealing. But a real growth period. I sort of felt like I was evolving from a, you know, a late teenager to a, you know, a more grown up individual within the treasury environment.

With a proper, you know, heavy treasury role. And then that evolved. You were there for quite a while. So you did what, 10 years there nearly?

Yeah, I. Well, it was about eight and a half years at Eton, so I decided to move on. I found a job at Samsung that was more of an assistant finance manager role, still very much embedded within Treasury Asia, decided to have a little blip and rather than be made redundant, I thought, right, I'm going to go and find my another job, which I did. So I moved on to EDS Electronic Data Systems which later on merged or got taken over by hp. So EDS in its, its name does not exist anymore. They were in about 80 countries, employed 140,000 people. They had three or four treasury centers. When I joined, I was looking after the sort of European hub, if you like. They had, obviously the headquarters were Plano, Texas, sort of Dallas way, but they had activity in Singapore, Brazil as well. Very quickly after, not very quickly, but probably about two years after I joined, they decided to consolidate all that activity back to Plano, Texas. So they became a centralized treasury function. And you think about how treasury has evolved over the last 20 odd years from a technology point of View, you're not ringing up your bank and getting bank balances any. Even at that point, which is probably 12, 15 years ago, the ability to feed information centrally became much more advanced. Time zones became less of an issue when you're using your treasury workstation, your ERP system and all your bank feeds, etc. So they decided to consolidate back to Plano. Basically everyone outside of the U.S. apart from me went off and did other things or were re employed elsewhere within the organization. I became a global consultant for, for the internal business. So they had about 300 operating units across the globe. So during the sort of next six or seven years I spent the majority of my time consolidating what I would call bank activity to the centralized functions. That was also about getting people on board on what they regarded as a standard template. So it was using SAP, it was using the preferred bank providers. I became involved in global RFPs very early stage and was lucky enough to actually lead the process the second time. I did it during that period of six years. So that was fantastic experience for me. You know, I traveled regularly, probably too regularly, but so my children didn't see much of me two weeks out of the month. But I worked, sat in with the ex husband quite well so that, you know, it wasn't too much of an issue. So that worked quite well. Fantastic experience for me. You can imagine working across sort of 80 odd countries, traveling to 35 of those and probably 5 of those on a regular basis. The cultures that I was able to deal with, the time zones, the different country practices and when you're thinking about a global banking structure, standardised working practices wherever possible, zero balance mechanisms, using your ERP system throughout all of those, they didn't just have a netting system, they had a RE invoicing system as well, which was good. So it meant all the foreign exchange exposures, all the intercompany balances were transferred to a central business unit and then it was all managed from a UK PLC fund there now.

And with that role you would obviously made that transition from operational treasury to this sort of consulting and leading the operations. Still. How did you feel about that sort of transition yourself? You know, one day you were, you know, treasury ops and running it, next day you're like transitioning and doing this, as you say, six years and leading projects and doing things like that. How did you know? How did that help you as a Treasury professional, would you say?

Well, I was lucky enough to have had quite a broad training across the sort of accounting and treasury fields, if you like. It was a fantastic opportunity for me. The assistant treasurer, David o' Brien, was again, another fantastic mentor in my life. And, you know, we are often asked about, you know, what helped us with our success in our careers as well. I mean, I've been very much an advocate of using mentors and being one wherever possible as well. And, you know, he allowed me to grow and develop and actually pushed me and sometimes and I do it now, it's about making people comfortable with the uncomfortable, isn't it? It's about the stretch, it's about the development, it's about the challenge. And you. I got pushed out there and I loved every minute of it. I must admit. The financial institutions I got to deal with across the globe were very supportive. I've always been very good at using my relationships, be they internally within a business or externally or external counterparties as well. I'm never afraid to ask if I don't understand something. I'm, you know, I'm never afraid to challenge someone if I don't necessarily fully understand or believe something. And I'm a great advocate of keeping things very simple. If something is far too complicated to understand, it's probably far too complicated to manage. And, you know, if I can't stand in front of my treasurer or the board and explain exactly what it is we are, we are doing and how something is managed. So from a risk perspective, I'm very risk averse as well. You know, I've always been, I enjoyed the challenge, I was well mentored, I was allowed to develop. I've always used my relationships and, you know, I think I got very successful. I'm not a, I'm a relatively confident individual, but I'm also eager to learn, continuously develop. Even now. I mean, people talk about being agile and I probably have had to be agile all of my working life because of the different scenarios and situations I've been thrown into, for want of a better word, probably dived into on occasion as well.

And then you developed all this great experience. So treasury consulting globally and everything else. And you know, as is the case, a couple of times I approached you about a role at Travelex. You know, the move to Travelex from eds, you know, what influenced that or where did you think that was? You know, the role from sort of senior consultant or consulting type role to then being the head of Global Cash Management, Travelex. Talk us through how that then sort of developed to you.

I'd had staff historically, but being a global consultant only responsible for myself for eight years was absolutely fantastic as well. But Then going back to Travelex or going to Travelex HP were taking over, or just about to take over EDS, I decided I'd been there 10 years, it was a good time for a change. Personally, I needed to take maybe my career to the next level, but I certainly needed to push myself to the next level as well. So hence having lots of lovely conversations with you. So Travelex Head of Global Cash Management and you think about it, there's a big skill set to learning to become a consultant in what, whatever chosen field someone does that in. It's not only about having, you know, a very broad selection of knowledge, it's about being able to extract things or extract information out of people. So it's about understanding what you're consulting on. It's about understanding what the appetite and the drive for an organization is and it's about understanding what the end goals are, making recommendations and, you know, going back more into the sort of the operational field. It's about then implementing and delivering on those as well. Consultancy. Sometimes you have the advantage of not having to implement and sometimes you're fully involved in an implementation as well. So it's about learning quite a lot of skill sets that are then transferable into new roles. So Travelex was about cash consolidation, it was about re engineering the teams that were in place across the globe. They had people in Sydney, in Toronto, in Peterborough, in London, and it was about rationalising what was good for the organisation at that point in time. And it was about cash consolidation, it was about making best use of funds. So really I just lifted and shifted a skill set that I had learned historically into something that I could do for that organisation to improve their current working practices and their treasury capabilities. It was quite a sweet. It was quite a sweet spot as well. Sorry to interrupt, Mike. In that they needed to take themselves to the next level, I realized and I had very frank conversations with my boss. If I'm doing my job properly, I will have done myself out of a job into about three years. I actually stayed there about two and a half years. I've got them to a really good point in the team structures across the globe, the systems they were using, the actual education and training across the organization of what they needed to do on cash concentration as well. So, you know, after about that two and a half years, I'd done the fun stuff, I'd done the stuff I needed to do and then, you know, we had a little chat about the possibility of moving from the UK to Guernsey to go and work for Spec Savers. I Think that job just came about a sweet spot in my life where I really fancied a change. So that was a change of environment as well as a change of work as well.

And I was looking for people that would be comfortable in making that move, but at the same time who had great treasury experience to be the head of group treasury there. And you put your hand up and I was like, oh, my goodness, great time. But talk through the role of spectators, because some people just hear, hang on, it's an opticians and we see a lot of them and things like that, but in actual fact, it's. It's mega, it's global, it's grown, really. You were there what, sort of seven years or so.

So perhaps for the list, globally, seven years. Well, Respect Services is obviously very well known in the UK. It actually operates in about 10 different countries. It's a private company. I'm not going to talk about them in any great detail. They are, they. They do. It's opticians, they're audiologists as well. And it's a lot about health care as well, but it's a family business. They care very much about the joint venture partnership, which is the predominant structure, 2,000 businesses across the globe, if you like. And that's growing. Fantastic company to work for. Lovely family. Care very much about the staff, care very much about the business, care very much about healthcare. And, you know, it was. It was a very exciting place to think about going to work for and I enjoyed my seven years there immensely. Guernsey's a fantastic island, but it's very small, so, you know, my family here brought me back with the addition of a grandchild, if you like.

So you walked in the door and I mean, again, I know this, but, you know, for the listeners, describe the treasury, as you walked in the door, some of the guys that are listening, guys and girls are listening that are. They're going to. Actually, this is what I've got, you know, I've just walked in the door. Wow, where do I start? You know, just give a bit of a, you know, structure to that, if you would.

Okay. Well, if you can imagine a team of 25 people that, for the majority of them have probably been able to stagnate for about 15 years. It was treasury very much in the old school, so people weren't necessarily encouraged to develop, they weren't necessarily necessarily encouraged to study, they weren't necessarily encouraged to take on new responsibilities or look for new areas of work, that type of thing. They weren't necessarily encouraged to think about how they continuously improve their working practices. And that's not to negate from any of the work that was being done, because those people cared very much about what they were doing for the organisation and in support of the partnership, but it was done in a very old fashioned way. I was brought in to bring in some more corporate experience or global corporate experience into the area and it was about taking treasury into the 21st century. When I say I split it into sort of three sectors. The first sector was probably about understanding the team, understanding what needed to be done and then coming up with some recommendations. The second phase, and I'll give you some more detail, more context to that, the second phase was about how to develop the team, how to put them in place, how to get the structures and systems and external relationships working better for the organisation. And the third part of it, which was probably the last year, was about how I transitioned then my direct reports into being able to take over some of the activities that I was still doing to allow them to develop, to take them to the next level and then sort of hand over the reins, if you like. So the first sector was really about, or the first two or three years it was about understanding the team, getting them to a place where they were open to change, getting them to a place where not only open to change, but were actively keen to drive it and to develop and getting the right people in the right place as well. I think Becsavers does a fantastic job about caring for his staff and a lot of it is about behaviours and, you know, treating people with respect and finding out how your staff, you know, how they like to work as well, because I know what my natural style is as a leader. But, you know, that may not be there necessarily, may not be their choice of style, if you like. And from that role was really about me learning how to stop being a manager and then start being a leader. So I had to go through a lot of personal development as well. So treating people with respect, good behaviors, you know, sometimes it's analyzing, you know, am I part of a problem? Can I assist with anything? And it sounds very simple. So when I talk about going from being a manager to a leader, it's a step, step back from naturally diving into everything and being very operationally hands on. I had direct reports that have that responsibility. And while my natural stance may be to have dived in and say, oh, you don't want to do it like that, you want to do it like this, that that just isn't how that, that part of my development Was standing back. We spent a lot of time on looking at how people were suited to roles, making sure people understood what their roles and responsibilities were, allowing people to feel empowered. So making sure that they were comfortable in their own space, had all the right tools for their job and also the right education and training as well. Because I don't in that 15 years before me it was very, very old school, authoritarian, autocratic, almost type management. Now that isn't my style whatsoever. I'm much more, I, you know, I would prefer people to come up with their own ideas, their own solutions, work about, you know, it's not just risk management, foreign exchange management, the liquidity, the cash management side of the business, the banking activities they perform for stores as well. It really was about how people felt empowered and able to deliver the services and solutions that we needed to for internal and external relationships, be it the partners that they were servicing or internally the business, business units that we were there to look after as well.

I was going to say, you say that, you know, so how did you then go about structuring Treasury? You know, did you, you know, you said how many staff at the beginning and then you know, what changed?

Well, a lot more automation became came into place. Staff actually reduced in numbers during the first few years but started to ramp up again very, very slightly because the actual size of the business has increased so much. They'd added audiology, they were adding the health core stuff which is, you know, going out and visiting people and offering professional services to people in their homes or hospitals or prisons or wherever they were doing it. So the size of the business is increasing. We didn't necessarily increase headcount proportionately because we worked on continuous improvement. It was about, you know, improving systems. And then, you know, when I started, if you like, netting didn't happen. There wasn't a Treasury workstation because there weren't hard and fast signed off treasury policies. Everything had to be approved individually by board members, etc. So you know, once all of those policies and procedures got signed off, you then had a remit to work within. It allowed our team to be more self sufficient. We brought in expertise from about bank to look after, you know, foreign exchange and risk management on a, on a more senior level. Yes, I was able to do it and capable of doing it. But I very soon realized that we needed, you know, I had someone looking after the banking, cash management side. I also needed someone looking after the risk and investment side as well. Yeah, so it was about structuring the team in a way that best Suited the business not just then but future proof in it for growth as well. Treasury has evolved over the years and I think that now I can say that with regards to Specsavers and probably all organizations really, historically it may be, you know, it was more of a process then. So yes it did risk management, etc. But I think the way I look at it now, it's evolved not only into it, you know, it has to manage risk, it has to manage cash, it has to manage liquidity, you know, it has to manage, manage debt, all of those things most definitely. But I think now it's become more of a business partner and more of an advisory center. I found myself or I found treasury there and you know, before and in future organisations much more involved up front when there's strategic evolution being spoken about. You know, to involve treasury upfront or as an early on business partner is a great, great part of a toolbox for an organization really. So I've seen Treasury evolving like that over the years and most certainly within that, you know, that middle sector. At Specsavers we became a trusted partner so people came to us naturally when things were happening.

And I was gonna say you were there seven years, you know, you'd taken, you'd improve the treasury, obviously, you know, you talked about that, just that third phase if you like. But it was, you know, after that amount of time on an island with a population less than 70,000, was it just time for a move or, you know, how did the move.

Well, as you mentioned earlier, Guernsey does manage its population. They have license in laws. My license lasted seven years but the year before that ran out, when probably I should have been thinking about, or I was thinking about do I renew or don't I renew. I actually told, you know, my FD and my CFO a year before I left that I didn't want to renew my license. And it's not that I didn't love the company, I didn't love what I did, I didn't, you know, my team were fantastic, I had great friends. But the island does tend to shrink after a while and when you add a grandchild into the mix, it just felt like the right time to go back to the uk. Now most people don't have a year to work out their notice if you like. And I couldn't make that public to my team or to anyone really until very, you're very close to the end. But you know, I had the luxury of then spending the last year, if you like. I mean there were RFPs to do and stuff. So I probably speeded up some of the activity, but instead of just doing it, I taught people how to do it and I involved them in the process. And you know, that last year was really speed educating, you know, my direct reports on what the next level of taking them from being managers to being leaders. So I was very privileged. If you like that, if you like that. You know, my bosses wanted me to do that and I was able to do that. You know, I've never been in a situation like that before and also I've never been in a situation where I most definitely deliberately not looked for a job because I wanted to come back to the UK and I, you know, I wanted to have some time off. I'd worked since I was 18, even when my children were born. I went back to work when they were 10 weeks old. So this was the first opportunity I had to take some time off. I did spend most of it doing my house up, unfortunately, and then I probably didn't get the, the final two months that I really would have liked just to go off on holiday. I had lots of little holidays days, but I wanted a big one. So I'll have to save my gap year for another year, roll over. But I. Yes, exactly. And then I was luckily enough just to, to make the, you know, the right inquiries to ASOS at the right time, really. So that's, that's how I ended up there.

And you've come into ASOS time, lots of changing and, you know, a lot of stuff, a lot of knowledge in your back pocket as it were, you bringing that to bear and, you know, what are you looking to do with asos? You joined it, taking it forward and what are you thinking?

So I had the opportunity, the Director of Treasury was already there as a, as an interim, but actually became permanent relatively soon after I joined actually. And then it was about bringing in the treasury manager and the Senior treasury analyst as well. So I actually poached one of my previous staff and dragged him over from Guernsey and lucky enough to find an interim person that had been working for Spec Sagers, technically extremely excellent, the pair of them. So it was about, you know, new team straight in and year end was approaching, so we just all had to get our hands dirty, really. Having been a sort of Head of Treasury for the two previous companies, I was used to people pressing all the buttons and actually doing the sort of the day to day work, if you like. But I've had to get my hands a little bit dirty recently, which has been very good fun, very Challenging and also made me really appreciate what being ahead of meant as well. So it was a very interesting time.

And how long you been there now?

Seven months.

Okay, and where do you see it developing, what's the development plans for ASOs, treasury and AS you grow it and things like that?

Well, it's that, you know, the company's 18 years old now, Mike, so it's reached the latter part of its teenage years. So, you know, the next phase for the business is making it more of a global organization with the distribution centres being set up in various different sites. Now it's not just a UK company anymore and we talk about truly global retail. It's about how we position ourselves in new markets as well. We've obviously made a significant impact on the UK market. Business is going great in places like Australia. They actually sell in over 180 countries. It's an online retailer, as everyone knows. So there's fantastic opportunity to grow. We've just built a distribution center in the US as well. So it's not just being able to source everything from the uk, we do next day delivery obviously, but to break into a market like the US and be able to deliver that next day obviously has its challenges because of the vast spread of the country. It's about how we position ourselves. So that obviously has its treasury challenges. So we haven't spoken much about the technical requirements of a Treasury Department. I've focused much more on the softer side, which is as you become, as you go up the chain, it's how the emphasis of your work naturally changes. The next stage was really about how I support the business to make us more of an international organisation. So when I think about that, it's future proof in a US with the new legal entities that will come on board within our structure. It's about setting up the bank relationships in those jurisdictions and we are starting from scratch in some countries. I've just done America, Australia, I'm just, I'm working on New Zealand at the moment and you factor in with that also we've got to take Brexit into consideration and the challenges that that faces, one as an organisation and two, as a Treasury area as well. So, you know, I spend a lot of my time while we have an AP function if you like. So they're our payment experts. I spent quite a lot of time advising on payment capabilities in country as well. What we need to do as an organisation to make sure we can access those local domestic payments and you know, my global knowledge base and my consultancy and my cash Management expertise is allowing me to, you know, grab that low hanging fruit and make some difference for the organization. Yeah, yeah. So it's because it, you know, it's an 18 year old company, they're now at the next stage. It's fantastic opportunity for me and for Treasury. We've got four excellent people within the team now that really can take it to that next level. And you know, know we help within the business as well. I mean, I've spoken about how treasury has developed over the years and the way I look at us, you know, we're a center of excellence, we're there to assist the business as a business partner. So it's about advising on payment structures and payment capabilities and, you know, what's best with regard to how we future proof ourselves to manage after Brexit as well. So. And while there's more questions than answers in that area for us all, but it's about how we may, you know, make sure we have future proofed ourselves to cover us for any eventuality. I'm having great fun with that at the moment.

Businesses.

Yeah, I've learned over the years that when you start at an organization you need to sort of spend six months to a year embedding yourself. Sometimes you might. An old boss of mine said you need a bonkers book. So you sort of, I make sort of mental note of the things I, I think, why do they do that? Does that need changing? Is it the organisation that's driving that? Is it, you know, old practices? So sometimes, you know, I've spent six months, I'd say almost analyzing the business. Now the next year and a half to two years is probably how we take it to the next level. So the objectives that I've written for us all this year are really about how we position ourselves externally, globally. That's the challenge for us now.

And you talk there. You've got a team of four. What's your ethos when recruiting?

You know, I use trusted partners like yourself. You know, I employ on attitude. A lot of the time you get a CV in, you see people's experience, qualifications, etc. You know, you can generally pick out from a CV if they have the technical expertise and then obviously subsequent conversations. I mean, I suppose you do the filter thing, don't you? Have they got the right technical expertise? If not, you know what? Yeah, but I really do employ on attitude. So when it comes to the face to face interviews, I want to see if someone's going to fit into. My organization is eager to learn, you know, the technical Skills, yes, but they are probably 50% of would you even see someone or not for an interview? It really is attitude because, you know, if they've got the right work ethic, they're keen to learn, they're keen to be involved, they're a good people person. You can generally teach everything else.

With the future as you see it, you know, and it's growing, do you ever struggle to recruit staff? Because obviously, you know, I've listened recently, I feel that there's quite a lot of people out there looking, you know, in the treasury field, I think there's been a sort of pent up demand. But do you know, what challenges do you see coming through? You're a young company, obviously that makes it easier. Some of the, perhaps more companies, more in traditional industries may struggle a little bit. It's the added benefits and everything else that sounds like it's less of an issue for you guys.

I think it's a sought after company. So at this moment in time, we're always flooded with candidates that are eager to work for Ace. It's an excellent company in the way it treats its staff and, you know, the culture and things like that, while still very young. So there are still things that need to develop and mature. But, you know, the esoth of the company is excellent. So it does attract people naturally. I think, you know, if I apply it to, you know, previous situations, I think obviously people coming into the treasury environment, it is important that you take your exams and you study and you get good experience, experience across the treasury arena, if you like. But actually breaking in sometimes is difficult. I encourage people to study. I think it's a very important part of, part of your career. Less so as you get older. I'm a bit more worldly wise now, so when I look at my, well, you know, I challenge myself, my continuous development, if you like, is to keep abreast of with, you know, what's going on in the markets. I don't necessarily need to sit there taking exams anymore, but it's a constant challenge for all of us to make sure we're up to date, keep developed, keep motivated. But with the youngsters, you know, I do encourage them to get out there and, you know, sit their ACT exams and ACT has done quite a lot to modernise itself in recent years and you don't have to do the massive commitment of study for five years anymore. You can do your, you can chunk it into the certificates that they offer. So, you know, there's, there's all sorts out there at all levels. For, you know, all sorts of people and their lifestyles as well, because obviously you've got to fit it in around your life.

And I was going to say about that bring. That brings us nicely onto the fact you're quite heavily, or have been quite heavily involved with the ACT because you've delivered the cash management course as a cash management expert within a real corporate environment. You've actually taught on that or tutored as well in the past. So just for the listeners, why bother? Why do you give that back?

I felt it was important for our industry. I feel it's important to provide case studies that the ACT can then use. I helped them out for about 10 years on their certicm course. So I'd go and do a case study on. And me and my career particularly. It wasn't necessarily about the organisation I was working for, most definitely not. It was about, you know, how I'd done the cert, icm. I was an advocate of that within the companies I work for and certainly within the treasury field. I felt it was important to give back to my industry as well, if you like. And it was a great opportunity to meet bankers, corporates, the like that, you know, they, they wanted to understand how someone that had been in that business for quite a few years actually applied and continued to apply some of the things I'd learned while I was studying what they were actually doing. So it was about living and breathing, you know, the, the hard work that they put in or the hard work they were putting into that, that current set of exams, making it practical and.

Things and you, you know, using that and the practical side of things, you started a number of years ago within Treasury. How is when you walked in the door, you talked earlier on in the interview about there was automation. That's great, you get stuff done, but obviously that's continuing its everlong march. But how has the world changed from when you first started Treasury? What do you enjoy about the treasury world and how it has changed?

There's various things I enjoy about the treasury world and I think probably it's sort of suits my personality in a way in that I'm a great advocate of things being tidy. That's a real oversimplification. But when I think about risk management and liquidity and cash management and managing foreign exchange and debt, it's all about making sure that you are working within your organization in the most efficient manner. So it's about having tidy banking structures, it's about having tidy cash consolidation, it's about managing your working capital, it's about looking after your exposures. And you know, treasury has changed. Our ability, our technical capabilities have obviously changed over the years. There are no time zone constraints anymore. You know, the regulatory constraints that we still have across the globe in various countries aren't as challenging as they were I think about 10 years ago. Trapcash was a real issue and still is in some countries. But there is lots more available to a treasurer, so lots more tools available. I suppose what I've seen and as you go up the chain as well, I don't do so much of the doing anymore apart from extremely recently, it's more about leading people and encouraging people. So, you know, not only is the environment changed, but as you go through your career, your capabilities and what you are able to deliver to an organization changes as well. And you know, when I think about how personally I've changed, sometimes it's about just working smarter and enjoying what you do. And I'm much better at letting things go. I can only control what I can only control, you know, if things are outside of my control. I don't tend to worry about too much stuff anymore. But that's probably because I'm comfortable in my own skin and have become more confident and more knowledgeable over the years as well. So, you know, my advice to people that are starting off in the treasury arena is, you know, work hard, work smart, do your exams, make sure you get as much experience as you can within your organisations and you know, hopefully organisations allow you to grow. ASOS is brilliant advocate at developing people, encouraging them to, you know, become comfortable with the uncomfortable. I like that saying. And it's about standing up for yourself and being in control of your own career development as well. We talk about PDPs all the time, don't we? And sometimes I felt in the past I've had to encourage people to own those PDPs and that's one thing I would say you are responsible for your career. It's about how you drive that and use the tools that are available to you and if they're not available to you in your current organisation, then go and look for one that will offer it.

What a great wrap up. Thank you, Irene. Well, that was Irene Atkins from asos, group treasurer. I was going to ask her about, you know, what, what advice she would give you if you wanted her job, except for her to sort of, you know, try and nudge her out the way. That was a great wrap up. I think if people want to get in touch with you is the best way via LinkedIn if we put that in the show notes?

Yeah, that's fine. Mike. Yeah.

Irene, thank you for today. It's been amazing. Thank you.

Cheers, Mike.