Exploring the Intersection of Treasury and Technology with Dave Garo

Foreign.

To this week's Treasury Career Corner podcast where I interview treasury professionals about their treasury careers. Each and every week I talk to treasurers about how they build their careers, where they are now, where they see both themselves and the treasury profession going to next. And a special thanks to flywire, our fantastic sponsors. If you've ever wondered whether there was a way to ease your international transaction hassles, they're the guys to talk to. If you follow the link in our show notes, you can see me talking to my mate Greg Levin, their Senior VP of Sales. I get to ask Greg about who are Flywire and how they can help you and your treasury team with your cross border payment headaches. Just follow the link to the interview in today's show notes. And now let's get on with the show. In this week's show I'm joined by Dave Garo, the group treasurer at Oriole. Oriole is an internationally active Swiss food and beverage group. They represent a family of companies with strong regional footing and popular brands and products which Dave will explain a bit more. But they claim leadership positions in a number of niche markets at both home and abroad. They have a decentralized business model which allows every company in the group to maintain their own culture, identity and it's tailored to their workers and customers and helps them create unique products, brands and concepts. They're joined by culinary passion for culinary delights and true craftsmanship. I'm going to let Dave explain a bit more about the company. Actually what we're going to do is as we do each and every week, we'll start at the beginning of Dave's career, we'll walk through, we'll then talk about some of the future of treasury as he and I are seeing developments and everything else and then we'll carry on with the rest of the show. So Dave, I'm going to shut up now and I'm going to hand back to you. Over to you sir.

Thanks a lot Mike and thanks a lot for having me in your show. It's a great pleasure and honor and yeah I'm happy that to share some thoughts about my career and how I think how I see things in the treasury area.

So take us back to the beginning. Yeah. Where do you first started because you obviously interesting start and I know we talked about this before obviously you had your military service, you've done lots of other things. So talk us through. How did it all begin for you back at way back in the day?

It actually began in my first true career step after university When I was working as a junior controller at Unilever in Switzerland, I was employed in the marketing controlling department. And I had a lot of good chats with my. With my boss. And yeah, he talked me also a little bit through his career and how he see things. And one of his career path was working in the Treasury Department of Unilever and then in university or in a role as a controller. Nobody tells you really what treasury is and what treasury does, but it sounded always interesting. He talked about his tasks in the ethics area, about cash management. And so it sounded always very interesting. But of course, on a daily basis and in my daily work at Unilever, treasury was very far. And that day, or these days, or Unilever went through huge reorganizations. They were centralizing their operations first in Switzerland and then later on in the Dach region in Germany, Austria and Switzerland. So there was a lot going on. And me, being a very young professional, just started and kicked off my career at some point, started to look around, I think a natural thing. Some of my colleagues, they stayed at Unilever and some of them still do. Interestingly. It is, and it was a great company. But for me, yeah, I found a very interesting opportunity at Baker Hughes as a Treasury analyst. And that's actually where it started. Yeah, I got that job. It was in Zurich, downtown Bahnhofstrasse, to work in the Treasury Department in the European center of a huge American group that is doing business in the oil industry or in the oil support industry. And yeah, so it was an interesting start. Mike, I can tell you, being or coming from Unilever finance controller, I was looking at the Swiss francs, like 10, 50, 100, probably a thousand Swiss francs it needed to match. And then suddenly you start in a department where you're looking at 100,000 or even at the millions and you run. Yeah, exactly. It was quite a change. And it was also a very interesting change for me. It was right after the financial crisis. There was still quite a lot of uncertainty in the markets. Of course, being in a company that is cash rich, one of my first tasks was to daily put our money into different banks and invest it, of course, to make some interest out of your cash balances. But on the other side, of course, from a counterparty risk management point of view, you had to make sure that you're placing that money in banks, that you still believe they're safe and that you're getting back your money the next day. And that's how it all started in my career.

And that wasn't at that Stage this was back in 2009, 2010 wasn't really an automated thing was it? You know crumbs. That's only 14 years ago. It was quite still manual, not in a criticism way. It would be as you say, you were calling a bank and we want to put this on deposit and things and that's only 14 years ago, isn't it?

Yeah it is. It's crazy. It's 15 years ago and it actually really it was like you just said I was using my phone quite a lot even in the ethics department I think there were some tools out in the market to deal ethics on a multi bank tool in bakery use we were quite, we were quite standard so we were using our phones a lot and then of course exchanging emails and still using e banking tools, multi platform tools but quite basic, quite, quite manual. Absolutely. And you makes it interesting of course looking back I learned a lot about the back office tasks about those single steps, how a back office should be organized and where the controls are in order to make sure that everything works, is good documented and is still SOX compliant in all its aspects. So for me it was a good learning experience looking back from now of course compared to nowadays treasury management systems.

And actually that was my next question actually it's great so you had this broad breadth of experience but then it wasn't quite enough. You then went into consulting and I know we in our pre call when we had this before we talked about that shift from being a corporate treasury practitioner to being consultant obviously quite early days for you really what was that like for you broadening your experience and things?

To me being a consultant always sounded as a good experience and a good opportunity to learn fast in different environments with different clients and of course with highly skilled colleagues and peer when this opportunity arise with PwC they were and still are quite famous in their consult treasury consulting practice in, in Switzerland but also in Europe and even on a global basis. So I, I took that opportunity and started as a consultant in their treasury practice and of course could learn a lot in in different client engagements on different projects from my colleagues, from my, from my managers very good experience and of course a very steep learning curve. Looking back I learned a lot these days how you should prepare and set up a project and what's all about project management office and organizations quite a lot about managing projects nowadays. I I learned during that phase being a consultant at PwC and and with.

That you talked about different mandates, the pros and cons. I think obviously a challenging situation sometimes in consulting is you're having to travel but you get to meet all these different companies. Any highlights for yourself or any ones that you think, yeah, that was something you were going to put in your back pocket for the future. You say about project organization because again we might have listeners thinking maybe consulting, maybe not. What are your biggest takeaways that you keep with you today?

So I always thought it's a great experience to prepare, let's say for a system selection process. So you're discussing the requirements and how your client like to have its system. Then you're one of the guys that is drafting these questionnaires and putting together all those facts about the company. You're working very closely with with some treasury professionals with the corporate. And then of course you're contacting those, those system vendors, you're getting in contact with them, you're getting back the answers you are preparing and one of the responsibles to analyze their, their answers and putting together all those facts in the presentation to go back to your client and discuss with him what came out and probably to shorten down the list from six to three potential system vendors. And it's then a highlight I think to be part of those of those presentations. You are not the client, so you will not have to decide sometimes quite a tough part, but you are with those clients and with the system vendors and having quite interesting discussions and meetings and you can really go through those processes about which system is best suiting your client and then the client is deciding to sign those contracts. That's definitely one, one of the, one of the, one of the highlights and of course the same with banking selection. It's a little bit, it goes in the same direction. It's interesting to be part of those processes definitely.

So a good grounding if you like in those couple of roles and then talk us through your next couple of moves because I know you moved some different roles. You've done a lot of work across Switzerland and things what talk us through the next steps of the career.

Yeah, absolutely. Thanks Mike. Yeah. After or being a consultant of course one element to me was always missing and I just said you're going through the process of selecting a vendor for your future treasury management system and then of course this vendor, this system vendor will bring in his consultants in order to implement the system and you are then as a consultant with PwC for example, you're going out of that process. So I felt like this, this active part, being active again back in the corporate treasury is something that was missing to me to what my personality is about where my interest lies and where also my, my motivation and my, yeah my, my interests are. So I, I, I started to look around and got that great offer to work as a group cash manager in SBM holding, that's in the French speaking part of Switzerland which was also nice to me. I could train and bring back my French language skills as well. And yeah of course to lead the group of cash cash management experts was a great opportunity and I took that challenge and I'm grateful I took it. It was a tough time. It was, it was a very dynamic and challenging environment. Interesting group. Interesting. BM is doing business also in the oil industry but in a very special one. They are building FPSO floating production and offloading storage vessels. That's old oil tankers that are rebuilt and being a almost mobile oil platform including a refinery to refine the oil and store it in the hull. They have their own fleet and they're building or transforming those old vessels for clients. Cool. And yeah, so it was quite interesting because there is ongoing, an ongoing business from a cash management perspective. You have ongoing business but you have also project management cash flow. So it was interesting to learn those different types of cash management aspect when it comes down to cash flow and when it comes down to trying to find the best possible use of your.

Cash and then talk us through that from there to what happened next because obviously I want to get into your current role with Oreo and things but talk. Yeah, what happened?

So I had, I had then also two, two more experiences. Very interesting experience. Next or after bm I was working for three years for, for a shipping company, interestingly for Switzerland. It was a shipping company that was located in Switzerland. It was interesting for me because I could learn a lot about the whole debt management, the whole financing aspects. Those vessels are financed individually so you had a lot of exposure to that. I was also exposed to selling leaseback transactions of such vessels. So a very good learning experience, good colleagues, still in contact with those guys. Really nice. And from there on I always felt like I'd like also to become a group treasurer, to be responsible for the whole department. I felt like I'm having enough experience and knowledge about all those aspects in treasury and yeah at some point saw that opportunity with oriorb to become a group treasurer and applied for it and luckily got that job and still there more than three years now working as a group treasurer, having the opportunity to build up and further develop the department to become a state of the art treasury in a fast moving consumer good environment that makes it Really a great challenge and also a lot of, a lot of fun I think.

And can you talk us through who Oria are? I gave a little bit at the head of the show, but who would people know? Maybe internationally, globally, Would they know the brand or some of the brands or how does it work?

Yeah, we are compared to the very big brands that everybody knows, the big corporates. The biggest corporate that is comparable to us is probably Nestle.

Yeah.

Producer of food. And we are also, we are producer of different type of food, premium food. It's a niche. As you also introduced. Our brands are for Switzerland, some of them quite well known like Rapelli for example, a traditional Swiss brand from the southern region, very close to Italy, very well known for salami. So we are also having one brand that is quite famous is the Piotta Juices. That's, that's a very like the name says biological juice or fruit juice and vegetable juices. So yeah, it's, it's. It's a group of different brands that is having or operating their own brands and also producing foods for off label for our clients, the retail chains in Switzerland.

Yes.

And we're having operations that makes it interesting also from a Treasury point of view. Of course we're having operations in Germany, in France and also in Belgium with, with. With the group called Culinar for example.

Yeah, and you say about that. Yeah, go on.

Yeah, but at the brands that. It's not that brands are well known in, in, in Belgium but not on the global perspective.

I would say no, but it's no less challenging from a Treasury perspective. That's one of the, that's why I'm bringing that because it's obviously there's got lots of dis. Different risk management, there's commodities, there's lots of different things. You as a treasurer, what are the fun things that you get up to? What are the challenges within your role.

Would you say as in all the treasury departments? That's actually what I'm interested about in working in treasury is that it's an international environment and it is also in Oreo or it's international environment working with different groups of people on different topics. Of course, as you mentioned, I'm responsible for the cash management still. I'm responsible for the liquidity management but I'm also responsible for the ethics management and whole debt management. So we are trying to benefit of being a huge group having a decentralized model and trying to leverage those facts and making the best use of our cash and of course to the best possible extent lending cash and employ it in our decentralized entities. And that's one of the aspects I'm really interested in and what makes my job so interesting and fun. And then of course in Oreo we are quite lean from an organization point of view and that makes it interesting for a group treasure. I'm responsible for the whole corporate risk management as well. So not only financial risk like traditional ones, interest rates and ethics, et cetera. So I'm also responsible to gather more of those risk aspects and getting them together, consolidate them, analyze them and present them to our board and to our, to our management. And that's one of the aspects I'm also quite happy about that I get those different aspects that is far more than traditional Treasury.

And just on that I've had that with a number of clients recently where we talk about risk and insurance risk and things like that on a more holistic wider scale and that becoming much more under the umbrella of a treasurer. Have you found that you say it's more interesting for you or an interest of yours? Is that because you see treasury getting out into the business and more like that or why do you find it so interesting?

I think that's exactly one of the aspects that treasury can really add value here that we are like we shouldn't only create costs and trying to make good use of the cash and trying to get some more interest. We can add a lot more value by talking to people. And in this special area of corporate risk management, of course I have I'm having the chance to talk to the production site managers, to people that normal treasures would not talk or in in other treasury environments are simply not your contact person. And in in my case that makes it interesting. I can add value with my background and with my view on how I would tackle questions or problems and they can trying to add value to the company, to the group. And yeah that, that makes it definitely an interesting, an interesting field.

So if someone's listening today and they've walked into their CFO's office on a Monday morning and suddenly the CFO said by the way, insurance and risk management is under you now. Oh, okay. And you go, they go for that first meeting they've got and I book you a meeting at 10:30 with XYZ person within the business, what's the first thing they should say to that person or how should they sell themselves?

Would you say I made very good experience with just being open and offer your will to help and of course then to carefully listen to those people and trying to Understand where they're coming from, where their problems lie. As a consultant at PwC, I learned to put myself in my client's shoes. So that's what I still try. I'm trying to put myself in those people's shoes and trying to understand where their headaches are or where they are.

Where are they without going into cool, confidential company information. What are the headaches that you think that treasury can immediately solve for some of those people? Is it on the cash side? Because obviously that's not under the risk manager, but is it more, by the way, you might have a risk there, we can help you manage that. Or what are the headaches you try and solve, do you think? Or you've seen that in the past?

This is probably not confidential. I can give a quite practical example. Two years ago in Switzerland there was those. And I think it was an European problem about shortage of energy. Those big fear about we don't have enough energy. And our group of course is quite heavy user of energy. I was actually helping those people to get together some practical checklists and task lists, what they should do in a case of energy shortage or even of a blackout. And then of course could put together my experience, but also their experience, listen to them, what they already know about how their production is working or is not working in the case of energy shortage. So we brought together different skills and we're working as a group together in order to mitigate these risks and trying to prepare ourselves from a business continuity management point of view if this energy shortage would occur. And luckily of course, it did not. But those plans, they're still there. And of course this is an area where a group like Audior can always get even better and prepare themselves to some extent, I think.

Yeah. And to moving on from this, we were talking before the show about the hottest topic. I think everyone talk about it, it's on LinkedIn, it's on a lot of treasurers, stages and conferences, AI, technology, automation and we're talking about the practical uses. I explained today that I'm going to be talking in a couple of weeks to a big group of treasurers in the US about automation and AI from a Treasury recruitment perspective. Some of my guests, so I'm very much looking forward to that. But also we are talking about AI seems to be this term for everything. But it's not about that, it's about maybe your cash forecasting, improving that with AI. I talked to a good friend, Daria from ASML and talking to them about their experiences because they've recently got Dave, what are your thoughts on automation and all those things? Technology, what can it bring to people? What are you seeing maybe in your role or just in general?

It's definitely a huge topic Mike. I totally agree here. AI of course being the big buzzword right now. Personally I think the automation and the robotics probably for a Treasury and in our case quite specifically is the first step to go being a Treasury from five years it was very manual. Now having a Treasury management system in place, I think the next step would be then to bring in some automations to bring in some probably a robotic software, something like that of course eases the life of a treasure or of a Treasury team a lot brings in automation, brings in more security, more accuracy probably even. And then of course those systems, they never get tired, they are not in different moods, they're just there and working for you. This is definitely an area where also Oreo will trying to. To build some value adding projects in the near future and AI to me personally I told you that probably already in the preparation call is yet very, very big. Very. It's tough for me to see where in our specific case for Oreo this AI will play a role in treasury, but I'm quite open here and I think it's always good to stay on top of some of these developments to also talk to fellow treasurers and trying to find out what these guys are doing about and then also trying to endeavor in those various potential areas where AI will help treasury become even more modern and more automated and probably already yeah taking own decisions. That's. It's quite fascinating the thought about that your cash manager will be a AI tool that is suggesting based on some cash flows that he was analyzing where your cash could be placed and how he would optimize the debt the debt situation. It's a fascinating idea to me but yet very long and very far. I think even though I'm knowing probably in 3, 5, 10 years the world will look quite different to what we are seeing right now.

Yeah. And agree and although and one of the things I was asked and that's when I was approached for this session I just. I'd written a paper, I'd written a number of things before that Treasure. Your role as a treasurer isn't going to be replaced by robots anytime soon. But what will be replaced is some of the unpredictability I. E. You can make better decisions based on an unpredictable. Who can predict the future? No one. But you can make more. You can have more information to hand which will help you manage it More would you say that's the thing.

Yeah. But personally I cannot think of it especially now knowing Oreo a little bit more I cannot think of think of a situation in the near future talking about three to five years that one of our top management leaders would tell would tell us that he is trusting more an AI software or an AI tool than our own judgment and decision. So I think it's about working together with AI but of course using their huge skills and ability to having the ability to analyze data and in a lot faster manner and a lot of course involving a lot more sources. So this is definitely something I can imagine of that you are having a AI driven assistant or like I said, the cash manager will be an AI avatar or tool that is suggesting yeah things like cash flow forecasting and where he sees the best short term deposit opportunities, et cetera. This is definitely an area where you can think and then finally the decision still probably be taken by human beings and therefore human beings will not be replaced at all but probably placed in different responsibilities and in different areas. It also is what we said about treasury technology. You're having more time to think about the strategic development development to think about. I can then talk more to my relationship manager in banks and probably having more time to to prepare myself to explain day my problems and because I have more free time do to do because I have AI and I have automated technology in my back office that is working for me.

I see treasury departments are always quite small, small, smaller functions in terms of size you don't have. Maybe sometimes in general finance you have a wider bigger team. But in some ways I think AI is freeing up. Treasurers you've been given the past few years have been given more and more pressure. I know that when I talked I recently had their conversation with Dana Laidhold, the treasurer of NASDAQ when we did it on stage in New York. And one of the key things she talked about that they their foreign exchange function is being powered by these robots because they are. They were scraping their balance sheet every day for exposures, pushing them into the trading system and then it was pushing the journal entry straight into accounting. And literally a thing that actually was still overseen by them. So there was checks and balances from people, but a process that was taking days. Now they were doing every single day in minutes. And she was saying look this, you still got tightness and control but it's the value add was just out of this world. She said that live on stage. We'll put a link to that episode. You guys are doing the same as well, aren't you? So it's like sort of getting that direction.

Exactly. Absolutely. To add value by. By. By automated tools that will do exactly the same as human beings but in a lot faster and more accurate manner. Yeah, yeah. That there are probably no mistakes anymore just because they were switching two or three figures by manually typing stuff or by. By being on the wrong side in ethics deals, et cetera. That's definitely the area where I see technology always was a supporter of treasures and I think will also be now with those new terms like AI and robotics etc. I completely agree here. Yeah.

Any other areas that you think that other treasurers should be thinking about? Obviously you've been. You've been on the consultancy side been a practical treasurer day to day for many years. What are you seeing as any other areas you think treasurers should be thinking.

About Next to of course to really carefully watch markets right now with all those pending interest decision that will affect markets not only on the interest side but also in fx. To me that's almost like a daily or weekly routine for a group treasure dually trying to stay at least. At least familiar with what's going on. Those markets that are affecting your. Or that could affect your balance sheet and your P L. But to me when you're asking me that question it's always also interesting and important I believe is the people management as we just said. Yeah. Probably AI will move us humans in other areas but it's still human beings that as a group treasurer if you're leading a team should really care. Is my team happy? Is there enough pressure but not too much pressure. Where do I see them going and evolve into what direction? What are their. What are their feedbacks? What are their wishes? What are their dreams? And then of course trying to be a good leader leading as an example and also trying to further develop those people. Some of them might become group treasurer in other companies or even might take on your own. Your own chair which is a great thing. That's what I learned in the army. If you're able to develop somebody that will be enabled to take on your role is always quite a high level task. And this highly awarded and also appreciated in those environments. And it actually should be also in the corporate world I think.

Yeah. That should be your aim to train your replacement. Yeah. And read them so they get them up to be. And that makes you better than some of your parts, doesn't it even.

Exactly. And there are always persons employees that know specific areas a lot better than you so listen to those ideas, listen to their, their visions and where they see things are evolving. And then as a team, you are always better than individuals. So I think that's definitely something that treasure should also always keep in mind.

Cool. We're going to put your LinkedIn details in the show notes, Dave, because I know that a lot of people want to connect up with yourself and have you as part of the network, as we do each and every week. What are the takeaways if someone is listening today and they're developing their careers. You just talked about that there. But also any tips that if someone's going back to the office with a coffee, what should they be thinking about? Or more experienced treasurers? What are your takeaways from today?

Yeah, if you're, if you're interested in starting a Treasury career, it's always good to check the market, to search for good opportunities and junior roles, analyst roles to get it started. I think it's always, it's always a good tip to just start. There are plenty of opportunities that might come around and then to. To be open of developments and don't fear about technology. Trying to take technology and to understand technology as a chance and to grow with technology because treasury is quite. Technology is close to technology and it always will be close to technology and therefore it, it might help to also always understand this area.

Yeah.

And then. Yeah, of course, hard work, I think hard work and dedication, trying to add value and trying to help people. It's what, what gives you exposure to a wider group, sometimes even wider than finance colleagues, that people see the value that they can add as a Treasury Department, as a human individual to the group and, and that will help, of course, also grow further into an organization or to widen your responsibilities.

Yeah, I think it's great. I think that's what I found with a lot of treasures, particularly in the past, over the time that I've done the podcast, past five years, that pushing treasury out of just its corner office and everything else, now it's much more mainstream. But I think treasures like yourself and doing the podcast, that's what we've talked a lot about. And actually you're pushing now more open doors than perhaps you were before, I think. Yeah.

Yep.

Dave, amazing to chat, sir. We'll put your LinkedIn details in the show notes. Great conversation and look forward to seeing you very soon in, in real life as well.

Thanks a lot, Mike. Yes, absolutely. It's about time to meet in person. Looking forward to that. Thanks.

Me too. All right, thanks very much.

Bye. Bye.

Thanks for tuning into another great episode. You really enjoy it. Thank you very much. You make it worthwhile, us recording them with these amazing treasury professionals right the way across the world, from the us, across the uk, across Europe, and there's lots more exciting guests to come and lots more live events. We love delivering this content. We get asked now, is this what you do? Do you just do content? You just know? The reason we do the content is to get to know you guys, to give you back the tips for success, if you like. But we're here to help you hire someone. If you need to recruit, call us. Because at our heart, we are a Treasury recruitment company. That's how we pay the bills, that's how we pay for the podcast and that's what we're passionate about. We hear from you at events and things. Can we also help you find your next great role? Can we help you hire? The answer is yes, that's exactly what we do. Yes, we do our treasury salary survey@treasurysalary.com that helps us know exactly how to benchmark not only your salary, but also when you're looking to hire. We know exactly what the market is paying, wherever you might be, whether it's the us, UK or Europe. We want to make sure that we are the best informed, that we're not just finger in the air. We always know. If you want to hire the best in treasury, don't hesitate to contact us. Go onto the website treasuryrecruitment.com or in the US, you can contact Joe Grabowski Europe. Contact the lovely Katie for more senior roles and roles across the uk. Reach out and contact me or drop any of us an email. Joe treasuryrecruitment.com Katie treasuryrecruitment.com or mike@treasuryrecruitment.com Let us help you make the hiring process as amazingly seamless and easy as our podcasts are to listen to. Thanks for your amazing support and looking forward to seeing you at either an event or a conference very soon. Or just give me a call. Let's help you find the next role or recruit the next treasury professional. All right, until next week, many thanks.