Feature Series: What I have seen in Great Treasury Managers

Foreign. Welcome to episode two, what I've seen in great Treasury Managers, as we've called it. This is a special feature episode on the Treasury Career Corner podcast, one of four that we're releasing on the Fridays throughout September. But I know that you lot can't wait so you can actually go in and binge on them. We put them in a separate area of our website so you can actually listen to all the feature episodes if you want to download them. I get asked all about the different stages of your Corporate treasury career, from when you start out as a graduate, getting in there, or discovering it when you first ever started right the way through to being a Global Treasurer. What I would do is these guys at Corporate Treasury 101 who we've linked up with, if you like, they have their own podcast where we bring our Corporate treasury topics and they came to me and they said, mike, we want to do some episodes where we really get into the nuts and bolts of treasury careers. And that's exactly what we do. So in this episode we're going to go through what makes an exceptional treasury manager and look at the middle stages and earlier stages of your career, if you like, not from right entry stage. This is the sort of the. The semi mid level. And the next episode we talk about the senior levels and Global Treasurer. And on the fourth episode we'll have Katie Hardy as well. She'll join me and then we'll talk about some of the issues post pandemic. Anyway, don't forget to rate and subscribe to the podcast so you never miss an episode. Add me on LinkedIn. We'll put that in the show notes. As I say each and every week. Let's get on with the show.

So we're back here again with Mike Richards. How you doing, Mike?

Yeah, amazing. Bit broken from all these horrible questions you're asking me.

You're not letting it off easy, are we?

Oh, we're just going to ask you a couple of questions. I literally feel washed out here, but I think the value you guys are giving to the audience is amazing. And Corporate Treasury 101, as you've done, is. Could be. Oh, is that just for the beginners? No, this is actually all the levels and some of the questions I'm about to be asked I'm slightly nervous about. But yeah, okay, carry on, you bullies.

No, the first episode run really well and we really liked having you, so that's why we wanted to get you on another one here, Mike. We wanted to go a little bit further along, so we started with the entry level positions, how get into corporate treasury in the first place?

Right.

What kind of things you probably study at university and maybe if you don't fit into the box, what are the hard and soft skills that anyway every treasurer needs to have and you can sell yourself as someone that can fit into the role and then even what do recent graduates, new hires into the corporate treasury landscape as analysts or assistants even do day to day and how you move on from that. And so the natural progression of that is really going into treasury manager. We wanted to a little bit touch on what is a Treasury manager and what does a Treasury manager even do. So maybe you can kick us off with that, introduce the role and that level of someone in Treasury's career and what they're expected to do in that place.

One of the things that we actually spoke before with Globe about and yourself and Sam was, was very much more about how Treasuries are structured if you like. So when you're an assistant analyst you're tending to do day to day tasks. You might even work across the front, middle or back office. And I'll give a quick explanation of that because then that sort of segues into being a Treasury manager because you could be manager of the front office, it could be middle office or back office. So again this is a very basic description. So for any listeners saying well I don't do that in my office, I'm sorry but this is just an overall bit of advice as I explain it to one of my team who is starting in treasury as they have done in the past. When you come into treasury or when you are, you'll be a front office dealer. So basically someone will say look, we want to go and buy that company or we've been paid a number of dollars, pounds, euros and other currencies. Buy this company or we need to go and raise this money. Can you go and deal this? Can you pick up the phone and speak to a number of banks potentially or do it electronically or what's the foreign exchange risk on this? So you do fx, FX foreign exchange and you might then take do a deal and yes, we've done a deal for a million, for a hundred thousand, whatever it might be and then you close the deal, it's done. You then take the paperwork and you physically hand it off to your middle office and they look at the inherent risk that you've got and you might have this. And again put some show notes for the guys listening today that what the different parts of treasury do In Corporate Treasury 101, these guys do an amazing job and everything else. But anyway, the middle office, so you might have the treasury accountant in there and they are accounting for it to put the journals into the, into the system if you like. Sometimes the back office will do that, but they will inherently look at the risks that are inherent in doing a deal where you've done this deal or you've bought in three months time, we'll get paid this money. What are the risks? You know what, what are the risks that this conflict is going to continue in Eastern Europe? What are the future risks that are going to come through? What should we be aware of? We've had a number of things with derivatives and stuff. And how are we going to do this? That's what, you know, post Enron and I play someone in the past at Enron, he still speaks to me, it's okay, don't worry. But you know, they are looking at all of those risks and stuff. So it's very risk focused in that sense. And then once they've done all that, dealing with it then needs to be accounted for, recorded and then at any stage passed on to your accountant. So that's your back office. It also might be in your back office. You look at your processes and your procedures and are they efficient, are they fit for purpose, are they resilient, are they compliant and all the other UN's and stuff like that. Do they actually, Are they working for the company to make sure the company is accurate? And so as a Treasury manager, to come back to your question, very long answer, you will be overseeing maybe all of those areas. You might have an insight into the back office for compliance purposes you won't properly have. So you might have to hand it off. A Treasury accountant who reports into a different line because you can't be seen to influence the work that a Treasury accountant does. You know, they might have to be totally separate. But typically as you start to then go to become the manager, you'll probably then be doing people management. So you might be mentoring or managing. The treasury assistant might have an analyst or dealer or two or three or seven, you know, so you become much more people manager. One of the complaints I had and I said to all these guys at this conference recently was you now some of you treasurers, you've become amazing treasurers, you're global treasurers and now you manage 80 people over five continents in three regional treasury centers. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. I said, how much management training have you had? And there was everyone going, oh, okay, okay. I said, you're amazing people managers, because you've accidentally become accidental managers. And I think that's quite unfair on a lot of treasury professionals that as you become more senior and I think it's a massive area so people listening today, management management training company could come in and sweep up. We're not doing it, we're recruiters. That's it.

Okay, so it's interesting what you just touched upon. Front, middle, back office. So if my understanding is correct, front is more when you're to be in contact with the external world, let's say in contact with the banks to do to execute the deals. Middle office is okay, making sure we are making sure the risks are taken care of. We look at the things that correctly executed done, et cetera. And back office is more background work. Right.

And also in the middle office you'll have more bank relationship management. Some of that will come front office as well. But in actual fact, when you're doing treasury management systems, for instance, that might be more of a middle office type thing because you're looking at efficiency processing, straight through processing. We need to implement a new treasury management system. We need to do this. You'll give that to your middle office guys because at the end of the day the company is continuing every day it's 24 7. So actually your front office guys might be doing that. And then you say, oh, we need you to look at the treasury management system. Like, I haven't got the bandwidth, I can't do that. Well, so you maybe need a Treasury middle office, treasury analyst or dealer or treasury systems consultant. A lot of the time they will be a good conduit between those things, a good linkage, like a chain, if you like, between back, front, middle office. And that's where they'll sit.

Okay. So deviating a bit from the treasury manager rule, but I'm really interested here into understanding these different aspects of the front, middle, back. The way it sounds is like it's different profiles as well, right. In terms of treasury talents, what kind of profile will more be in a front office compared to the back office? Can you switch between those different.

Yeah, people love it. People love it if you do. But one of the things is, you know, back office people, a lot of people are saying, well, it's about controls, it's about risk, it's about, you know, is that the drudgery? It is if you make it like that, you know, with one of our clients, we're about to recruit a head of back office for them now.

Okay.

It should actually be. It's Actually head of controls and financial risk management. Because what they're doing is they are. Any of the activity the front office guys are doing, they should have an influence on and actually an input to. Because they're saying, well, yeah, that's great. If you go and do all these commodities, they're a very commodities heavy company. But the fact is, the work that that front office person is doing will then be passed on to the back office. And as you say, if you've worked in the front office, that's a good place to be that you've actually then realized she works in the front office. So I then pass on the middle office. Oh, and they. They pass across the back office and if you're then going, here's a pile of something which isn't very nice for you and you've got to now de risk all this and you've got to account for it and oh, you're like, really? Why did you deal like that? Why did you agree to that? Why did we. We should have done something else. And the more that you've got and the. An understanding of that, the better. And some of the best treasurers I've seen have worked and in fact, one or two stick out in my mind that they've done everything. And who goes into there and middle office. A lot of the time you'll become an accountant and you might then become a Treasury accountant. And then when you're from that middle office, you can then go into accounting and controls, you can then go into the front office, you can just continue your career. But as long as you've got an eye to both sides, there are some great treasurers that have done that as a springboard.

Do you have any examples in your recent interviews on your podcast that you can mention off the top of your head?

Just trying to think of some of the people that we've had. There have been so many, you know, 210 has some of you that I'm going to look them up here whilst we're doing this. Go to Treasury Career corner, everyone. The nice big name check there. Best Treasury. Well, bar Corporate Treasury 101, obviously the best out there sort of thing. I know I'm gonna do it. There's a guy called Chris McConaughey. Chris used to be with National Grid. He's an English guy, but he's gone across to the us. He's got a really good. And he's been with National Grid for a number of years and we actually placed him at National Grid. I'm just looking over the diesel. He's now the CFO in New York for National Grid over there. Great guy. Now he was at Northern Rock in Newcastle, not far from the Scottish borders, you know, say your, your previous footpath. He was then a consultant. Well, hey, the consultants. That's it. Big for Galam. He was at PwC for a period of time, but then he was assistant manager, Money markets, so their front office, fx, Treasury Manager, Capital Markets and funnily enough, Treasury Manager, TMS Implementation did that. Then he became vp, US treasury with a wider remit and everything across that as well. And then was New York controller and he's sort of. Treasury was definitely a springboard for him himself. Chris is a great guy actually and good to have on your LinkedIn. So definitely listen to that. Now he as an example, he had an MSc in Economics from University of Edinburgh and then he did a CT study back in and completed those in 2010. But at the same time he was, you know, Northern Rock on the graduate program. So he went through a number of different areas. It was a bit more front officey, middle officey. But he did both, you know, as he did asset management, PwC as well. So yeah, he's a, you know, great. There's so many. I mean, it's just, you know what I would say again, some of the other people, I mean they're just some amazing people. One of the people, Sarah Jane hall, the global treasurer for GlaxoSmithKline. You know, what an amazing lady, amazing career. She's made some great steps now she herself. So I'm just, he goes trying to launch my podcast. I don't know why, it's just attracted to it guys. You know, she's got an incredible career. She has been with GSK forever, 20 odd years, but she's moved up. It doesn't actually give too much on LinkedIn here because she doesn't really do LinkedIn. Why would you? You're the SVP. He doesn't need anything else. But there are some great ones in there. Really.

We'll put them in the show notes. Yeah, that's great, thanks.

Okay, so among those people that you just mentioned, Mike, and overall in general, maybe going back a little bit to the treasury manager for function, we would expect great managers or good managers to enable the company's strategy. Right. Maybe that's the difference actually with a experimented senior analyst or experimented senior assistant. How do you do that? How as a Treasury manager do you come into. Okay, I'm looking at a little bit the broader, the big picture and I want to enable the company strategy. How do you do that as a manager?

Someone said, how as a treasurer do I make a new treasurer to a company they had recently moved, so I can't say who it was, but they. This lady moved in there, she said, how do I achieve success? And one of the bits of feedback was money. And it's like. And because. And it wasn't about them saving money, it was about them being the custodian for cash and looking at the risk. So you've got helping the company make money, but actually in treasury you're a support function in many way, many ways. But if you're the custodian for cash and if you think that's how you can be seen and look after, be the safe haven, you know, in tricky, risky times, and you can point to that very successfully, then that's the way. And this was some three amazing treasurers and they said, that's what you need to look after. Look after the company's cash as if it's your own. And another way that I think a treasurer. And we'll do that in the next episode where we talk about some of the Treasury. So I don't want to give too much there, but one of the other treasurers bury it. One of the first ever episodes, he said, his chairman, even when he was deputy treasurer, so, you know, again his way up, said, could you keep a black book, please? Said, all right. Said, yeah, just every week, take. Go have a coffee on me or whatever. And just look at what you've done this week to move the needle, to make a difference, to have, you know, whether that's de. Risking that or mentoring this person internally in your team. So looking at it across the piece. So it could be front, middle or back office. Yeah, we completed this treasury management system. He said, a lot of people in this support functions don't look at what they are doing to actually to the greater whole, to the greater good, as it were. The more that you have that big picture. So you don't work as the treasury manager for, as we said with. With Chris at it for National Grid, you are there as the custodian of the cash, the National Grid, wherever you might be. So looking after it.

Okay, that's interesting because you touched upon. So I feel what you touched upon was, okay, how do you enable the company strategy, but also how do you invest, influence it. Right. If you become the custodian, it's also about influencing the company strategy. Are there any other way of doing so as a manager or is it More like, okay, you need to manage the cash and become the custodian. Anything else you could do up and down.

So I think it's, you know, it's a bit like when I say to people, if you want to get a recommendation on LinkedIn, who do you ask for? And things? And people said, oh, you know, don't ask your mates that you're sitting next to, you know, because, you know, oh, yeah, Mike's a great guy, yeah, you should, you should hire him, blah, blah, blah. You see, next to ask your boss or a previous boss, ask someone that's worked for you, have you mentored them? And the reason is that sounds a sort of random way to ask, answer the question, but the, the answer is by doing that at your job. So if you are a manager, how are you managing? Ask the guys below you, you know, and ask them what they want. All the best managers. Sam, you talked about this and some of the things with your boss, you know, and some of the guys that work for you, you achieve success through them, with them, you know, if you just try and do it all yourself, you never really get. They say the sum of the parts is greater than the whole. Similar with your boss, if you can support what they're doing and how they are progressing, then you'll achieve success. Now, by the very same token, if you don't share the same skill set or the same mindset rather as your boss, probably give us a call, you know, that's it. You know, at the treasury recruitment company, and I don't usually do that. It's more a lot of the time I've said to people, and I said to you guys on the other episode that people don't leave jobs for money necessarily. Career factors and various other bits. But good boss or manager, decent work, life balance, friendly team achievements being recognized, those are the key things. But actually you've got to share that vision with your boss. Now, that's actually quite sometimes difficult because treasury folks are busy, but they're also very black and white a lot of the time, focusing on the numbers and stuff. So you've got to say, right, how do I help you achieve success and look good boss?

Getting into that treasury manager role, There are some roles, especially management roles, right, in most corporations, which you kind of have to have done the analyst job, you have to have done the legwork first to be able to then manage people elsewise. Is that how it works for a Treasury manager? Do you have to have been an analyst or an assistant? Or do you again, see treasury managers Coming in through accounting, finance and other parts of the business.

I do see them coming in from accounting and sort of slotting in quite well. Where some of them struggle is if they don't have any management expertise and as I said, becoming accidental managers, if you like. There's suddenly thrust in there, oh, here's your team of 2, 3, 4, 2 two accountants, plus someone in the back office. Can you mentor them as well? They're like, oh, I've never managed anyone, so give them some training. If you're a, you know, treasurer listening today or someone like that, that's definitely one thing to do. Yeah, it is. It is really good if you understand what a Treasury analyst was doing, because you did that job, that really does help you because, you know the pressures and you've been there, done it, and. But a lot of the time, it has evolved a lot of the time. So that's a. That's the key thing, that the job keeps evolving. But, yeah, so having done it is a pro. Having not done it, also, you come in with fresh ideas. Why have you guys always done it like this? Surely that way. Oh, we've always done it like this. Yeah. But you're losing money or it's broken or. By the way, if we implement this system, this is how much it was. All right. Yeah, perhaps we should do that so that, you know, so it's both ways.

That's really interesting. You started straight away with that answer. You didn't say, oh, you don't understand the technical details. You focus more on the manager side of things even. Right. As if you can learn about treasury if you have an accounting background or finance background, but then it's a lot harder to maybe learn the management skills. And I guess that applies not just to treasury managers, that's all managers in all domains of any business. Right?

Yeah.

That's a really interesting insight. That's not the answer I expected.

What did you expect?

Yeah, I was expecting maybe it would be something a little bit more to do with the. The technical aspect of it.

Right.

The actual. What is the tms, you know, how do you do cash flow management? How do you do. You know, you kind of. And then also, like we said in the previous episode, right, the analyst role and the assistant role is a little bit more legworky, a little bit more given direction.

Right.

If your manager came in, your treasury manager came in, who hadn't done the grunt work, himself or herself, and then they're coming in and getting you to do all the grunt work, maybe you don't have that same level of respect for them. But again, that's more of a management trait than it is a technical trait.

Well, just one of the. Well, one of the ways I would describe it, I have to be careful about, you know, some not name checking. One of my clients and we're talking about some of the people that he said, look, we can train the treasury piece, but actually we need someone that's got this knowledge of accounting and commodities. That's a key thing, but we can train the treasury piece. And you're like, okay. And he said it's about the mindset, the personality, because they're going to have a lot of responsibility. They're going to have to influence people both who are working remotely. And I'm not going to call it working from home. That's going away. It's working remotely, working across different countries, different nationalities, different cultures, that's more important. And getting results from those people than it is necessarily going. I know how to do effects spot trade. You know, it's like, that's a skill, you know, that's a hard skill. Hard skill set and knowledge. Whereas actually influencing people and, you know, how are you today? You know, what's going on? All crumbs. Okay, well, what can we do to help you? Is is harder to be, you know, your EQ rather than your iq.

Is there anything else you would add into the skill set of a good treasury manager? So there's the management part, there's the influencing part, that super. You've already touched on. There's the, okay, learning the hard skills eventually as well. What do the best treasury managers have that maybe we haven't touched on so far? I think we've covered quite a lot.

We'll cover in the last episode, at least for the special editions we're doing. And that's much more about everything outside of work. You know, working remotely, working patterns, returning to the office, post pandemic and everything else. I think that's going to be much more important than any of the other stuff. All the things you just mentioned, I think, okay, how are we going to manage virtually? You know, I talked again at this conference a few weeks ago with these North American treasurers. Some were coming back sort of four days a week and. Well, in fact, a better example would be one was coming back and they were saying, oh, they're back in the office Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday. Oh, how's that going? Well, actually, all the banks are coming in. I hardly ever get to see my team. And then Monday and Fridays, I'm just doing the tasks and getting through that. And they were struggling with it as a treasurer. So they were saying, actually they're going to sort of carve out some time to have some team time, because during the virtual break, if you like, and stuff, they were spending so much time virtually and interrelating with their team. Again, it's this management aspect that they actually. They discovered things about them and actually by doing that, that's what's made them more successful. See treasury team of the Year. With people like treasury today, those are the ones that achieve things.

A lot of people are expecting this, I think, and the salary range of managers, but before touching upon this and to leave a bit, Little bit of tension to maybe close on these treasury manager aspects. What are the main challenges that you're facing when you're a Treasury manager? Exactly. Like we've talked about, what makes a great manager, what people skills you need, obviously. And the way you talk about it, I really feel it's a. It's a people business, treasury, but. So what are the main challenges maybe you have to tackle and face?

I think the breadth of the role is one of the things is that and what is expected of you and have you got the resource to deliver it? And that can be both a people resource and a cash resource and a commitment from senior management. You know, you're asked to deliver all these results, you're right in the middle of things, so you've got pressure from below, pressure from above, pressure from the sides. You know, hopefully you'll. You start as a piece of coal and you become a diamond. You know, it's like one of those key things. There's all these different things and I think it's a very stressful role. And actually dealing with that is like one of the key things. I think that. And then you've, you know, so you've got external business partners, you've got internal business partners. A bit, you know, business can say, oh, we need this, we need this, can you deliver this? And like, whoa, whoa, whoa. That's not my job. I don't care. You know, I can't talk. The treasurer, they're too busy. The analyst is doing this. Can you do this? And I think spinning all those plates, it makes it bloody hard. And I think that's one of the key things for those guys, that. And finding what makes successful treasury managers. Thinking back to a couple of the people we've recruited recently, it's an ability to change and embrace change as well. You know, the ones that are. Well, we've always done it like that, just get out of Treasury. Because the fact is, you know, people talk about automation and you know, our robots taking their jobs and things like that, they're not necessarily. But the fact is that the skill set of treasury teams are rising and you're having to, you know, if you can't get with big, great big data and everything else, then get out of Treasury. If you can't. I'm not saying you have to be an IT techie, but you need to be able to translate the word of treasury into an understandable format for your programmers, for your data scientists, for all of those guys. And that is, you know, the responsibility really of the treasurer and maybe assistant or international treasurer and or the treasury manager. That's what you start to get involved in. And there's a lot of people management again as we move up the pyramid.

So those resources you mentioned, like you need to make sure you have the right resources to deliver what's expected from you. How do you do that technically? Is it okay, I know that this typical task requires two analysts on it. Is it about only the people? Is it about the systems as well? Like, okay, if you want to achieve best in class treasury whatsoever, I need to have these kind of things in place. How do you assess as a Treasury manager what you will need in order to deliver what's expected?

As you mentioned, I think you were saying a little bit there and the first answer was yes. Is it about. It's all those plates, you know, if one plate was. Again, when I was at this conference on Tuesday, I looked around the room and there was liquidity planning, there was capital management, there were. People were going to get together, there was about technology in one of the systems, you know, and we would, I'd said if you're a really good treasury manager, you would have had knowledge and being able to contribute every one of those six or eight tables. Thing was, I did say to them that they were missing a table, which was a talent table, slash recruitment. And I said, well, I can understand why because it should have been a much bigger table and everyone would have flocked across to me. Not just because of me, obviously, but mainly because of me. But no, joking aside, it would have been. I think it's far, it's underestimated when you switch on the system, when you switch on the PC, when you switch on that, there's someone switching on with their finger, there is a person there. And the people aspect are far underestimated. You know, we're going to the conference later this year, Vienna conference With Euro finance, how many people streams are there? When we go to the AFP later this year in America, there's probably one people stream yet. You've got like 8, 000 people in the room. It's like, and let's go talk about technology. It's like, let's talk about this. It's all about people, you know, and, and yes, we're at the center of things. But you know, that's what I've discovered over talking to these 200 plus and it'll go on to 300, it'll be 500. They all do different jobs and different. But every one of them is successful in their own right. And it's just the people aspect is so underestimated that just rises above it. The best treasury managers might not be foreign exchange experts, they might not be IT savvy, but if they can manage a team of really great people and again the same, you go next level treasurers. That's essential.

Okay, that's super interesting. Makes a lot of sense. So maybe to attract a little bit those managers, could you give us some metrics about salary ranges? You touched upon the ones for analysts and assistants in the previous episodes, which can go quite up, especially in New York, as you mentioned. What should the treasury manager expect in terms of salary ranges and maybe across the different regions in the globe?

Before I do that, one thing I would say is so a lot of people do our treasury salary survey. So go to treasurysalary.com, and then someone says, is that person a Treasury manager or are they. And some people come into the survey and they say, I'm a Treasury, I'm a treasurer. And you're like, oh really? Right. And, and one of our rivals, they do a salary survey which is worthless because, and I looked at it today, it says name optional, job title optional. So what you're saying is your survey is total rubbish because the fact is you can't judge that person. I judge every single person and I look at them and I say, are they a Treasury director? And we recently we split out the categories group treasurer to global treasurer because I've got people that manager of the globe, they're the group treasurer for Housing association domestic in the UK versus I've got a couple of global treasurers that as I said, manage 80 people over five continents. They're two different ends of the scale, but they both do the job of the group treasurer. So they should, they deserve the respect. They go into two separate categories. Treasury manager is an interesting one because it sort of Straddles. So senior treasury analyst then becomes manager and then they become senior treasury manager or do they jump into assistant treasurer or the next level sort of thing. And so actually treasury manager is quite a bulky category when we do it, so that's one of the key things. But actually it's also. It's got most distinct differences. So a Treasury manager in Texas, rather a recent placed $140,000 that was placed beginning of end of 20, 21, their salary. And if I'm someone, I've got a couple of clients saying, I want a Treasury manager now. Quite a broad breadth of experience, not international, but still focusing on that in, you know, in Texas, actually $160,000 now. Yes, there's inflation now, there's all this. It's going up. You know, you've got junior treasury managers up to senior treasury managers and then, you know, we start to judge it according to how many countries to look after and everything else. So treasury manager is that whole new next level, if you like, from treasury assistant analyst. How do we judge it? We also look at. They maybe manage a couple of members of staff or they have an impact wider. You also look at the size of the company as well, because sometimes treasury managers are the proper head of treasury, really, and they call themselves Head of Treasury, but they're not. Maybe they only manage the UK or, you know, very limited portfolio and things like that, but they are the head of treasury, but we might call them a Treasury. So you can have a Treasury manager. In fact, I should have brought on. In fact, again, if people go there, they can see it in the show notes, a link to some of the ranges sort of thing. And. And UK ranges are changing as well. That's one of the things we don't just want to run it once a year. We keep doing snapshots throughout the year. So. But a typical treasury manager in the uk, let's just get. Give it a number, will be anywhere between 65, right. The low end, but more typically 70. And if a client comes to us. But we placed a senior treasury manager the other day on 115, so that's right, that's a senior treasury, but. So it would typically be 80 to 100, somewhere in that range, depending on if they've got staff to manage what is. And then further afield in Europe, it does go up, actually. And again, some of the treasury managers might have the title Head of Treasury. So it was quite interesting what a client I was recruiting for earlier this year, they said, oh, we called it Head of Treasury, actually. The job wasn't the head of treasury, it was a group treasurer job, over 150,000 UK. So I said that's a group treasurer job and. Oh, right. And I said ahead of treasury job, you know, and there were a couple of rivals recruiting them and they were like 95 to 100k that, you know, top end head of treasury, treasury manager, really.

So it's becoming quite interesting.

Yes.

To be a Treasury manager in the UK and in the us, apparently.

Yeah, it would definitely. If you got the chance, you know, take your skills, pack them in your bag and as long as you got a green card, get on the plane.

We are going to Obviously put your LinkedIn profile in the footnote of this episode, Mike. So people, if they want to go and find you, see what you do know more about you and or your company, they can go in the description and find your LinkedIn profile. We'll also put some of the episodes you just mentioned during this episode, especially the one with Chris, people can find their way, especially on the thing we mentioned. Anything you'd like to add to close off this episode about treasury managers positions?

Again, we've talked in both this previous episode and this episode. Treasury is a great place to be and actually getting to be a Treasury manager does give you this breadth of experience. There's a lot of pressure there as well and I think coping from working virtually to a return to the office, it throws up a lot of challenges, but it's ultimately very rewarding. So I think a lot of people are been enjoying treasury and just let's keep going. So I know it's been brilliant and thank you very much, both of you very much. Much easier questions this time or still.

Different, but we took your feedback on board.

Yeah, thanks a lot, Mike.

Thank you very much for having us, Mike.

Hello, it's Mike here again. I hope you enjoyed this week's show. If you did, then maybe you want to follow the show or subscribe, depending on where you listen, whether that's itunes, Spotify or another great place to listen the show from. It's totally free and means that you'll be the first to see each and every week when we release a new show. And maybe whilst you're there, you could even leave a quick review. Reviews and ratings are among the most important metrics for a podcast to effectively rank. And as you can probably appreciate, the podcast is a lot of hard work to produce every week. It'd be amazing. Just take, say, 20 seconds, leave a quick review of my amazing guests and their great career stories. We'd really appreciate it. Thanks very much. And I can't wait to see you soon.