Feature Series: What I've Learnt About Group Treasurers from 200+ Episodes

Foreign welcome to episode three, what I've learned from talking to over 200 global treasurers and group Treasurers on my weekly podcast the Treasury Career Corner. This is episode three of our special feature length episodes. We've got episode one which focuses on the junior levels and when you first start in treasury, episode two which goes on about treasury managers and mid levels if you like. This is one that's focused much more for you senior professionals if you like. What I what do you see in there? What you global treasurers are doing and everything else. And again we let you guys binge on all of these and there's a fourth episode as well where we talk about some of the trends in the market and include my colleague Katie Harding. But this is episode three. This is where we talk about group treasures. What do you guys do, what the challenges you face? What do you need to do to become an amazing global treasurer? Hopefully we answer some of those with the amazing guys at Corporate Treasury 101. They have their own podcast which breaks down various corporate treasury topics in really great detail available out there. You'll see it in the show notes as I say, don't forget to rate and subscribe to the podcast. You never miss an episode and you can add me on LinkedIn. Be great to connect. But as I say each and every week on the Treasury Career Corner. Let's get on with the show.

All right, here we are again. Mike, hello again. In previous episodes we covered quite a lot. Thanks a lot for the wonderful conversations we had. It was super insightful and fruitful conversations. So we covered both junior roles, more like assistant Analyst, Treasurer. We also talked a lot about work, what you do as a Treasury manager. Now for this episode, Hussam and myself are quite interested to know what is at the top of the food chain, like what does it look like at the top levels of a Treasury department. So can you maybe to begin with walk us through a little bit, what are the roles there and what is happening at the top levels.

We talked about it in previous episodes that the typical structure of treasury is that typical pyramid if you like. So there is typically one Global Treasurer or Director of treasury. Then they will have maybe an international treasurer, you know, across in different regions, things like that. So you might have your Emir treasurer, you might have your Global treasurer based in the U.S. for instance, me a treasurer based over in Europe, my van Asia Pacific treasurer and they're the international treasurers, they're more regional responsibility and then you've got deputy Treasurers and Assistant Treasurers below them. So you might have, say, one or maybe two deputy treasurers. Sometimes they're interchangeable with the international treasurer. Depending on the, the, the scope of a company, as it were. An assistant treasurer is that level below that. People have said to me and you guys, we talked about this before. I think that an assistant treasurer assists, deputy treasurer deputizes, and people say, well, I still don't understand. Well, generally, if there's a big decision to be made or you need to go to your bank or something like that. If you're an assistant treasurer, you still need to check with your boss. If you're an. If you're a deputy treasurer, you don't need to. You've actually got that authority to actually make the decisions. The buck stops with you a little bit as well. Although you might still talk to your treasurer. It's a little bit more senior and things. That's probably the best way to describe that seniority. And there, as we said in previous episodes, the CFO generally look at. The treasurers are the happiest people in Treasury. Why? Because they're paid pretty well. But in actual fact, in terms of workflow, they're the most empowered because they might see their CFO once a year for a formal briefing. You know, they see the CFO on a regular basis, but what they'll do is they'll tend to see their CFO sit with the CFO and say, right, these are your goals for the year. These are the things to do with your team. And then I'll see you at the end of the quarter and see you the next quarter and have a coffee and stuff. Where are you up to? What else? And you'll have more frequent dialogue, but it won't be so hands on. As we said in episode, the first episode we did together, treasury assistant is getting told what to do every day and getting trained and everything else. Whereas a treasurer, minimum 10 years experience. But you've got. I've got global treasurers that have got 30, 40 years, you know, right at the top of their game sort of thing.

All right, Mike, can you develop a bit on what deputy Treasurer is? Because international. Well, that's quite an easy concept to grasp. Right, Separate. Same for emea, apac, all those regional treasures. But Deputy, can you develop a bit on this? On what they do? Exactly.

So like the treasurer, a lot of the time will set the strategy and then they will interface with their deputy about the best way to execute that strategy. So they will be the executioners of that. And then people say, well, then there's an Assistant Treasurer. And what you'll tend to find is that then the Assistant Treasurer helps them with that execution and they might be. A Deputy Treasurer tends to be more focused upwards, not all the time, but in general. Whereas a lot of the time the Assistant Treasurer will be focused downwards. And again, I'm getting this from when I've recruited at those levels that an Assistant Treasurer will have maybe staff responsibility. They may have people reporting into them. They may be doing, you know, throughout lockdown. A lot of the guys I was talking to were saying, I've got to do this review with this person, do this review. Whilst the time the Deputy Treasurer was then having lots of meetings with the banks, they'll be doing much of the outward activity and they would work maybe a little bit more in partnership. It's not saying they don't work in partnership, but the treasurer might work a little bit more closely with the Deputy Treasurer and it might be. Also Deputy treasurer sometimes has other responsibilities such as investor relations. They might leave the ESG agenda, look at environmental impacts and things like that. So they might be a little bit sometimes, again, not all the time, it's not hard and fast, but they might be a little bit more business focused, whereas the Assistant Treasurer is a little bit more treasury focused. So they're about making sure everything is working and the team is there and everything else. Deputy Treasurer is like, right, okay, we've got to do this, got to do this, holding people to account. And that's the same for the treasurer position as well.

Okay, when you say treasurer again, you mean group treasurer, right? Is it an abbreviate?

So group. Well, let's go group and global. Just. We did this in our salary survey. We talked about this as well. Go to treasurysalary.com to take part. If you take part, you get the full results. If you want the, you know, if you want to highlight the results. No, you have to take part. That's the entry. You know, get yourself in there. We most recently, we ran it back last year and we keep on rerunning it. We talked about this before, but actually I noticed there was too big a group, if you like. And we. It's great. Our victims are own success. We get so many global treasurers. You know, I've now got global treasurers that have five regional treasury centers under them. They have a global team of 120 plus through to a group treasurer of a housing association in the UK and he's got two members of staff.

Okay.

They both are treasurers, they both have responsibility for Treasury. However, One has a domestic balance sheet and we also get this in the US as well. Some of their group treasurer roles are generally higher because they're dealing with 40 plus states, you know, so it's huge. But a group treasurer and then global treasurer and treasury director, we really push them into separate categories because. And that's what we do to judge them as well.

Okay. So the title can pretty much be the same, but it will also depend. The scope will also depend on the size of the company. Right. And on the amount of people that.

Yeah. So when I get, you know, someone takes part in the salary server and I see their numbers, I'm like, wow. But then I actually go through and look at. It's quite easy feelings. A lot of time I know the people anyway, but I'm able to, you know, look at their profile and go, wow, this person, you know, deals in every time zone, you know, and is they've got senior heads reporting into them, three or four of them globally. Whereas I say there's one person who's just got. Sometimes they might even just be the group treasurer and then they've got a couple of junior staff, treasury assistant and things like that. They're totally different scales.

Okay, super clear. And so just to know you a bit on this and then come back on the term you used. So Assistant treasurer. So a little bit the less role you mentioned, are we still talking about the. The same rules as the entry rules like Treasury Assistant and Treasury Assistant Treasurer.

Will tend to be qualified either in treasury or maybe accounting and will be, you know, an assistant treasurer. Minimum level of experience will be eight years.

Okay.

More likely about 10. Deputy treasurer will be eight plus years sort of thing. Again, depends on the size of company, depends on how people. And that's again, what's interesting. I do the treasury, our treasury podcast, Treasure Career Corner, which obviously this is going to be on. But when I you talk to some of the guests, the way they organize treasury, one thing I can tell you is it's always different.

Okay.

Now one person says we approach it this way once as we do this, one says we diffuse lots of responsibilities out to the business. And one says, oh no, we're very centralized. But it's diverse and weird at the same time. But it's cool.

Okay, is there a best way to do it or can any of those ways be very good?

There are pros and cons in all of it, I think, and it depends on the central ethos and I've looked at this before of a company I did a survey in the past for one of our clients and wanted to benchmark the best structure. And they were a series of consumer goods and fmcg. So we had companies like Reckitt, Ben Keyser, we had Kimberly Clark, Pfizer. And I was looking at their structures and the weird thing was I did this massive study which only charged 10 grand for. It should have charged 20 because it just took up one, one entire Christmas. And I was doing all these interviews and things and when I looked at the all charts in the last, you know, the appendix, all of them were just. None of them were the same. They were all just, you know, so at the time, Kimberly Clark had in certainly an international treasury, for instance, across Europe, they had some very junior operational guys that were supervised by one quite senior treasury person who processed and made them really great people and they were really good. And then there was another person above that. Brilliant. And then I talked to the guys at Pfizer and they had a totally different structure. And I'm not, you know, not giving away company secrets here. They also, the thing is that the reason I say about Kimberly got. They've changed their structure since then and things change and evolve and you know, a different treasurer comes in, said, oh, we should organize it this way, a different way. And you know, to go back to it, there is no one right way. There are better and there are better practices and procedures. And you as a consultant, I mean, you've, you've seen this yourself, you, when you've gone in, what would you say from your position as is the most efficient or where have you seen the most success, would you say from some of your clients?

Oh, that's a, that's a difficult question. Well, obviously I think there is such a thing as best practices. Right. But what can be best practice on paper doesn't fit the reality, et cetera. And I'd like to come back to one of the comments you, you gave in one of the previous episodes that I can really relate about my consulting experiences. Treasury is a people person. It's super, super interesting on how, depending on who is managing how the whole ship, let's say, goes in the same direction. Right. And this can be like a super fast ship, super agile, small team that will do certain things, or a big boat that is super steady and goes in the same direction as well. So as you said, from my small experience, I would say the same. Yeah, it depends on the people who manage the whole thing. It has to fit the company's future as well. We mentioned in the same quote, sometimes the risk Appetite and such a thing. So it's overall how the company is doing and the people that would be in the Treasury Department that will shape the best in class or not.

And let's use. Sorry, just jump in there.

Go ahead, go ahead.

It's interesting, that analogy. You know, what I've also seen, which I sometimes works very successfully and sometimes doesn't work quite so well, is when there's like a flotilla of lots of different ships. You know, you've got all these different ones and coordinating those and you know, because, you know, Europe is different to the us. Of course it is, but, you know, then it's different to Asia pac, and then it's different. But how then someone, you know, keeps all of that coordinated, synchronized and successful. That I think is blooming challenging. Whereas, you know, I think. But there's, you know, the big ship, you know, big centralized is big central work. It just depends, you know, and I've seen successes and failures in both and it's about embracing that, which is the challenge of Treasury.

And so it's interesting because. So you mentioned the guest and the different treasury landscape they have. I'd like to come back on one that you mentioned in one of your previous episodes. So, Chris, and to come back a little bit to these roles into the top levels of Treasury Departments. So Chris that you mentioned is a. Is a vp, actually. How does it work in terms of corporate titles, if I may, at the treasury level? So you mentioned that the group treasurers report to the cfo. What role do they have on the corporate ladder? Like how much influence they have in the overall company. What's the. So are you a director, basically, when you're a group treasurer, are you a vp, et cetera?

Well, great question, because there's a massive dichotomy between the US and the UK and Europe in general. Let's do Europe. Europe sits in the middle and then we've got uk, it's one place, and us. So to give you an example, I've never seen a group treasurer in the UK on the board. 25 years treasury recruitment experience, never seen it. I wish they should be, and I think they actually deserve their place and they should be seen at that level because treasury, treasury in itself is today's money and the future you critical to the running the company, everything else. But you'll see the Chief Financial officer. So that C level, if you like, executive level, they're on the board. You know, you go onto their website sometimes, you might see a treasurer. If we're seeking to connect with U.S. businesses. I often click on someone's website and there it is. There's the CFO and there's the treasurer or vp, treasury. And they might have a number of other areas. Vp, treasury, investor relations. We talk about future. You talk about all the other. The financing. And a lot of the time the CFO in the US companies we deal with would deal with today's money and actually then have a greater relationship a lot of the time with their financial controller, looking about finances and backwards, if you like, and making sure solid foundation of finance. Whereas the treasurer then a lot of the time is, you know, seen as a different. And I think it's. People said, well, how do you think it's evolved? And I think it comes from the evolution of finance and treasury in America. Okay, Because a lot of. Again, people said, how many banking guys do I ever see in senior roles in UK and some European companies? European companies tend to be a little bit more open to it. Not fully. In America, I often see banking guys who have got some really good corporate experience going into sometimes the treasurer position, more often than not. Usually the deputy treasurer or maybe VP or Deputy vp. What do they call it? Assistant vp. It's different title every week, avp, but treasury and Investor Relations. And they'll come in and they've got all their experience of working on Wall street and the bank relationships and then they use that they know all of the ways to do the financing debt, capital markets and that then after a number of years will springboard them into the treasurer role. So, yeah, it's quite different.

And so this dichotomy you said comes from the cash and finance culture in the US compared to the uk. What's that cash and finance culture in the us? What makes the difference for a group tuner to be more valued, let's say, or at least considered at a. I.

Think a virtuous size in some ways. You know, I go and meet. So I speak at various conferences. I go to the afp, which is the US Conference of Treasurers. I go there and then I talk to a treasurer and you look at the size of their balance sheet and it's 10 times the size of a balance sheet of. Most of you got FTSE 100, you drop down to say position 70 or 80 in the FTSE 100, the top 100 companies in the UK, you've got various, you know, you've got DAX in Germany, you've got all the different stock exchange, but once you go below, a bit below. Whereas if you've got the Fortune 500. They had the Fortune 500. You drop down to 250. They're still bigger than some of, you know, some of the huge companies in and around UK and Europe. You know, the balance sheet is huge, you know, because the country itself is massive. And yeah, so sometimes I've seen people say, oh, you know, but the US guys, they're sometimes more focused on domestic or cash management. I'm going, yeah, but they've got an extra couple of zeros on their balance sheet for the amount they turn over. Oh, okay. So it's a different kind of job. Which again, I think leads to why a lot of treasures in the US are a bit more senior sometimes because the scale, that's one of the key things. And Sam, you know this a little bit through your company, don't you as well.

It's true. I mean the UK definitely is much smaller in that regard. And the US just like the different states, the different federal regulations versus the different state regulations as well. There's just this added complexity of being in the U.S. right. I'm sure that probably adds to it as well. And the market is just completely different there. It's the lead market in Bernie, you.

Speak to, they say you so no fair. Thanks. Thanks a lot, Mike, for this insights. And just to finish on this, Europe, you said, stands a little bit in the in between US and uk so you saw some group tuition, being member of the board or what do you mean?

Yeah, you do. And again, it's got some mega major European groups, you know, so in different countries, you know, particularly used to be in Switzerland, Belgium and you know, you'd see some really big, big groups if you like, but they tend to be in the top five or ten companies and then quickly it drops down if you like. Also you tend to get a number of regional centers. We've had. There was an influx. When I first started In treasury recruitment 20 odd years ago, there was this big push to the Netherlands where taxes, they did all these tax breaks got everyone moving. There was a flood of people and then they drifted away for a period and then everything happened in Switzerland and at the time Colgate moved there and this is, you know, this is public knowledge. They made a big treasury center. I recruited out of a team of 12 at one stage, nine of the people. And then it just grew and grew and grew and then tax rules changed and companies took a different look at their, their operations and they moved. And then also you had a rise of service centers over in Eastern Europe and then you've even had A drift across right the way to the Middle east and then it's gone all the way around and then you've got lower cost centers. So you've got the Philippines and various things like that and you know, outsourcing to India and things. And yes, you know, there's a, can sometimes be a massive cost saving but. But I'm seeing automation taking over a lot more from that. We'll probably do that a bit more on our next program but you know, that will move staffing around the world. So the Treasury I've seen actually over the 20 years become not more complex but actually the more intellectual, more intelligent if you like. There are less processing jobs at the more junior levels. You know, sometimes I would recruit treasury analysts and dealers and their roles might be a little bit more, less sophisticated, more mundane, more matter of fact, you know, come in, do the dealing. That's it, you're done. Now the dealing is automated. You know, again, back when I started there were things like fx all which is a trading platform so you can exchange and hedge your foreign exchange risk. It's gone. Suddenly had all these FX traders going, oh, they've invented this one product. I'm out. It's like, oh yeah. So it took away a big. Because it. Machines took over. Not taking everything over because we still need to turn them on and off and work there.

Moving on a little bit, Mike, so you've talked a few times about this relationship between the CFO and the head treasurer or the group treasurer or international treasurer to someone non treasury or a little bit, maybe even a little bit outside the senior ranks. What's the difference in the roles? I think once in one of your podcasts you've mentioned, and I think it's a common line of yours that the CFO looks at the present, whereas the group treasurer is looking at the future.

Yes.

Right.

What does that mean to you? How do you explain that?

Well, let's take the CFO role. It is the chief financial officer and so they are the custodians of all things finance related and they have their critical team of their tax person. Again, you know, we've all talked about this and it's about moving money between countries and future tax and everything else. But they're very rules bound, they're very focused on laws, as rightly so and so they're trying to minimize the tax bill, you know, and trying to make sure you're so efficient with your tax brilliant and stuff. People criticize them because they, you know, make massive tax savings. Hang on, that's what they're paid to do. You know, I'm not saying it's all right, but you know, as people have said, actually go and change some of the rules, that's fine. So that's the tax side, financial control, exactly what it says on the tin. That's about today's money and backwards and auditing and making sure things are efficient. Everything else. Then you come to the treasurer. I said to you guys in previous shows why I got into Treasury. I didn't know treasury from anything else, should we say? And but what I rapidly discovered, they're very relationship focused. Why? Because they have to think about the money they're going to get today and they have and be the custodians of cash and risk and looking after it, financial risk management, everything and the future. You know, we talked about it with the example with EIDOS and Tomb Raider and looking after cash, future risk and getting money. And I heard one of your, you guys having that show the other day when you talk about FX hedging and stuff and I thought, yeah, that's great. But they have this diverse role and they're looking at today's money in the future. And so when their CFO comes to them, they're wanting to have the answer to all things. They go to their tax guys saying, right, if we buy this company, whatever, what's the tax implication? But they actually come to the treasury said, right, how are we going to buy that person? They don't go necessarily to the financial control and say how are we going to buy it? They go to, you know, they might both work at them and say, well this is our cash balance, right? How can we raise this? Do we need to raise in a bond? Do we need today, you know, what's our rcf, you know, revolving credit facility. How do we do all these different, where do we get the money from? Or what kind of. So it's very forward, very planning as well, so very intellectual and stuff.

That's a nice little avenue. So how do those different, let's say advisors to the CFO or executors to the CFO work with each other? So how does the treasurer work with the tax guy, how does he work with, work with the financial control guy, etc. Like there must be some key interdependencies there as well, right?

Yeah, it's an interesting one. We work very closely with James Howell at the tax recruitment company. Very inventive James, a good friend. And one of the interesting things that it used to be, I would say you'd have a head of tax and Treasury. And the weird thing was you don't so much anymore. And I think that is because certainly my assessment of it when I've talked to James is that tax. If you are ahead of tax and treasury and it's 51 treasury, well, then someone says, well, how do you run tax? You get a really good tax manager because they're focused on the rules, they're focused on this and getting it done. There is no doubt a real interdependence between tax and treasury because any decision you make in treasury has an impact on tax. And sometimes tax will go, well, you can't do that. Oh, no, no, we can do this. No, there's going to be withholding tax. There's going to be. This is going to be. We should shape it a different way so they're like advisors to each other. But treasury then say, I want to do this. What are the tax implications? And you get some very good tax and treasury folks who understand both. But you don't get someone that is usually wearing both those hats. And a lot, well, a lot of tax guys will then do tax and they'll discover the world of treasury, go, oh, I want to do Treasury. That's not good sized tax, people. But it's because it's less rules, it's less, you know, it's about. We talked about the toolbox. Sometimes it's about, here's the tools and you can choose them and use them. Right. Whereas the tax box, in my opinion and what I've seen is here are the books and here are the things. You must follow these. Well, we want to do this. That's illegal. No, you know, it's like you are restricted and you must do these things in the Right. And that's right. For compliance and audit and everything else. But that's my. That's what I've seen. You tell me you're the consultant, sir.

And I say, couldn't agree more, Mike.

That's a good picture, I think, leading on from that. So you talk about people coming into Treasury. I think you even have a podcast on your channel for someone, Toby, I think it was Toby Shore about coming into treasury and the way his journey into it from there. And then you just mentioned there as well, tax people coming in.

Right.

So it seems to be. I mean, that's why you're in it as well, right? You're passionate about it and everything like that. So what about going the other way though, right? So what's the journey like beyond Treasury? Do you see people going the other way into tax or into financial control. Let's not touch going up just yet, but moving across into other departments. How's that? How does that. How have you seen that go?

I haven't seen it so much. That's one of the things. It's. Treasury can be slightly restrictive because it's so much fun. And actually, if they're going to certain areas, so, you know, some people will become a deputy cfo, but they'll tend to be more focused than on the finances of a company and they'll be, you know, have an influence on it or I have seen it. In recent years, treasury has taken on more responsibility for investment and investor relations, for instance, relationships with the banks and things. I think the rise of ESG is absolutely critical. If you like, we've got a podcast coming up with a guy who's based out in Israel, and one of the key things he said is that every single financing he's done now has got an ESG element. And in actual fact, all the ESG goals are totally focused within treasury, and treasury has to focus on the ESG goals, not the treasury goals. So we have to give back, we have to do this, and in order to do that, then the success of the company and everything else, it's really very sort of a virtuous circle, if you are so. And in actual fact, that is one of the things sometimes I see with treasurers, that they get to the treasurer role and they just want a bigger treasurer role. And that's where I tend to see it, you know, so it's. It's not the end of their careers, but they will take on a certain amount of other responsibilities. But a lot of the time, unless they do become a cfo, there's a heck of a lot of competition. If there is only 100 treasurers, there might be, you know, 100 global CFO roles. But they've got competition from everyone in finance. Everyone, you know, some strong guys in Tax and some strong guys in Treasury. It's even greater.

Was the best base to go to a CFO role. Will the treasury be ranked high in terms of. There is a lot of competition, but hey, I have the treasury hat, so I will know how to take care of that. On top of the financial aspect and tax aspect, or I mean, the bank.

What do you mean the sort of base salary of.

Not necessarily in terms of salary, but like, okay, I'm in competition with a head of tax and a head of financial control and we all three run for cfo. How is the group tutorial ranking among all those people?

It's getting better for treasurers because they are less ivory tower, they're less just focused on the activities they do. And I've seen this again, we talk about it a lot on the podcast. The more they get involved in the business and I've seen that more and more that actually some treasurers are sort of semi being voted in by the business themselves because tax by its very nature sometimes is tax focused and everything else, they will work with the business, but it has to be, you know, sort of limited in its way because, you know, they're defined by its rules and everything else. Financial control, yes, they're a key part of the business, they're about their finance and everything else. But treasury has got this, you know, so it can be supply chain, it can be esg, it can be the more that again, that's what I'm seeing treasurers using that as a springboard into the CFO role. And a lot of the time I see them being real candidates for the deputy CFO role. I've seen a few treasurers said, well, actually my role is becoming more deputy CFO and they take on the other responsibilities and once they do that, they're then given the opportunity to be the cfo. Some make it, some don't. But it's about that focusing on the.

Wider business that's interesting because it's not so much the technical skills that the treasurer has, but it's more on the exceptional treasures which look at, okay, not just my job is cash flow, my job is banking relationships or whatever. But it's really like how is all of those activities contributing to the wider business success, which I assume would apply in most roles.

Right.

You want to think about your impact on the business more than just technically executing.

Well.

Right. Especially at that level.

Well, just as you said that, I've just brought up Toby Shaw. This is. And people will perhaps put a link to it in the show notes. He's a non exec with our atmosphere, not, not for profit about climate change. But he's been with Emirates Global Aluminum EGA for 14 years. He started there and this is back in the day as senior credit risk officer and then was corporate treasurer and chief risk officer and then he became a board member for EGA America. And he's taken. And he's a prime example, you know, he's got here a new generation of treasury innovation in, in the uae. It was a panel and he was doing all that stuff. He's used it very Much. And they're, you know, they're sort of a joint bench of Mubadak. And there was Matthew Hearn who's out there as well, and he's a great guy who's, who's gone out and taken it to the next level. And that's really where you can. So now Toby again is Senior Director, Treasury Risk and Insurance. Again, that's an area I didn't mention earlier. The insurance is. I've seen more and more becoming more involved and closer in line with treasury about risk and all the other risks that might happen as well.

Mike, you've interviewed loads of people, right? I think you're 200 plus episodes in how many episodes?

Yeah, I said this to someone the other day and they said, well, you've done your 200 podcasts, but you've been in treasury recruitment for 20 years. And if you think I'm probably interviewing a person a day. Yeah, it's, it's, it's tens of thousands of treasury professionals, you just forget about that, really. It's only because now we thought, hang on, let's record them. These are really cool guys.

Good conversations. So what's your main takeaway across. Across the board? Like, you see so many faces coming and out, you've heard so many stories, patterns must emerge. Throw out of that, right, like, what do these people enjoy about this role? What drives them to that role? And also, have you noticed any character traits necessarily that are common across them or anything like that? Especially the ones at the top, Right, the group treasures.

Well, we talked in one of our previous episodes about the treasury wheel, if you like, and we'll put a link to that in there. And that was some of the things that, the hard skills about, the qualifications and attitude to risk and sort of risk mitigation and things like that. But then outside of that, there were all the other areas, such as relationship building. And that came from. Because again, I struggled, if you like, after, when I was going to Chicago for one of the speeches, Laura, who used to work with me, she said, oh, what makes a good treasurer? And I said, I don't know, I talked to so many of them and I said, each of them is different, you know, and again, it's sometimes a personality that matches a different business. Sometimes it's about literally personality fit for a business. Sometimes it'll be. I'll see someone who's particularly wanting to sort of push the envelope with a business and really embrace everything. But sometimes they're not suited to a business because the business isn't suitable for them yet. They might be there later, but you sometimes have very conservative business and they have a sort of maybe an attitude that means we'll get there. You know, there are still some Treasuries I talk to and interface with who use Excel as their treasury system. Excel's not a Treasury system just for the listeners. It's a finance package, a spreadsheet that has very little. Get over sitting there going, oh, my God, yeah. And I'm sure you have no resilience, no controls or anything else. And probably you're going, I'll make it.

Stop, stop half the time. Don't worry.

You also see, you know, so you see different. You see different treasurers or treasury professionals in different stages of their own personal evolution. But then you look at it and where they're going to fit in with a company or a client in that company's evolution. And perhaps they, you know, companies aren't static things. They are living, breathing, changing. How companies reacted to pandemic, how the next bumps come along. You know, people are talking about, well, you know, if we have a turn a corner, there are various world issues, you know, is a recession later on in the year, what happens? But all these companies plan and approach them differently. So again, that's what you try and do is find a treasure that will fit that ethos. And that's what we do. You know, people say, oh, you're a recruiter and yeah, but we're not. We're actually a matcher of people. Two talents, two companies, two CFOs and everything. And they can all change. You know, CFO, new CFO will come in and they might clean house because they're going, look, I'm the new cfo. And I've seen it where there's been a particularly aspirational CFO previously. New cfo, you know, wants to go back to basics, more controls and everything else. And suddenly that doesn't fit with the treasury team, you know, they're all out. And the flip side, you know, say a very established company that hasn't. That needs a bit of a shakeup. I've seen a CFO come, right, guys, we've got to drag you kicking and screaming into the 20th century and maybe the 21st century at a later stage, you know, like from, we've got to move from Excel to a Treasury management system, you know, stuff like that.

Mike, that's super interesting. Is there such a thing as a great group tutorial that wouldn't be a fit for a specific industry, but that would thrive in Another. There is such a thing?

Yeah, I think so. I think it's. Again, it's all those different things. When we did the treasury wheel sort of thing, it's about who fits which different companies. You know, sometimes I get candidates, if you like. They say, look, I don't want to work in certain industries. Now, there might be moral things with them as well. They might not want to be in defense, they might not want to be in certain industries because of that. However, there might be other people say they don't want to work in high tech because they're not interested, you know, in crypto. They're not interested in this new technology. They just want to come in and do their treasury job and make sure they're focused on the people and things like that. So it's a whole host of things, if you like. So what makes a good, great treasurer? The answer is, I don't quite know. Listen to the treasury podcast and, you know, the. The one thing about it is they're all different. You know, I say to the guys and little things that, you know, sometimes when we're doing recruitment, I said one thing you predict about people. And they said, what's that? I said, nothing. Oh. I said, people are unpredictable. You know, you get, you know, I had a guy up for a job just recently. He said, my, actually my family situation's changed. I'm out. You know, my wife's gonna have twins. I'm, you know. But he was, you know, bang on for the job and everything else. And I was just like, yeah, that's life. Don't worry about it. You know, I'm not gonna get annoyed about it. It's annoying because, you know, we're back to the drawing board. But the fact is, things move on and change. It's not about him. It's about life as well.

So wider thing, this makes me think there is a very good episode of yours with Wade Olson and upon something that I wanted to, I mean, discuss with you. He talks about chaos. He puts forward the fact that chaos brings a lot of opportunities in your career as a treasurer. And it made me think of it because treasury is all about risk management. Right. And you touched upon this a bit earlier as well. Like, audit comes in the treasury scope because we're really about risk management. So I'd say you tend to avoid chaos.

Right.

As a group treasurer, when you lead a Treasury practice, you have a defined governance framework, structures in place, segregations of duty, et cetera. And so I imagine he meant more something like changing evolving environments, a Little bit chaotic in that way. What's your take on this? What's your take on chaos in treasury and the impact on people's career and eventually the careers of people at the top of the ladder?

Yeah. I mean, the key thing is, as you say, you don't really want a chaotic treasury team, otherwise that's a recipe for disaster. What you very much want is how we're going to put it. You want someone that is able to cope with challenging times, you know, someone that is able to, you know, if things are going wrong, they don't, ah, panic, you know, is there, you know, their attitude to risk. How do they mitigate risk? How do they cope? Yeah, how do they cope under stress? Some of the things there. None of those. Have I talked about, how do you implement a TMS treasury management system? None of those. It's actually all about the softer skills, just as Hasam said that, it's much more about the personality. And actually, I think that's underestimated. You know, there are certain things that you might have when recruiting a cfo. Know a number of cfo, finance director recruiters, and there's a lot more that seems to go on where they're sort of ticking a box. And what I mean by that is, you know, have you worked in this environment, have you coped at this level? Have you done this? Boom, boom, boom. Whereas with treasury it's a little bit more. Have you implemented this? Have you done this? What's your attitude to risk? What's this? It's quite a different ethos, if you like.

So, about this and how you lead people, how do you make sure, as a group treasurer, to make your team grow? Because I guess that's a trait that is looked for by many people who apply into treasury and ends up in a Treasury team. How, as a group treasurer, you enable this within your team, people to grow, people to learn, take upon new responsibilities. What's the. What's the trick here?

Well, before the responsibilities piece, I'm actually going to just bring up some notes here that we had, funnily enough, because I was asked this about ways to recruit junior treasury professionals. You guys and I, we've spoken about this and one of the things here was how to be a good boss. And we've done this from the salary survey and things, and we've talked about it before. About 18 of people said, be a good boss or manager, that was the key thing. They wanted a decent work, life balance, 17, 16, friendly, supportive team, varied work. And then salary came in and things like that. So that was one of the key things there. And I'm going to let Katie Hardy come in the room and I'm going to carry on with the question. Sure, Katie can listen in and stuff. But, you know, this was about when I was saying to treasurers about keeping their staff is the first thing I said is don't use me. I said this in a training session the other day. They're like, what? And I said, if you lose me, you've made a mistake. So I said, we've got a relatively young team, you know, back at the treasury recruitment company. And one thing that has changed, I say, say, in the past three, maybe five or five, three years, one year is now I have to ask the guys, what do they want all the time? It's like, what do they want now in three months time, six months time, a year from now? Because as I've just said there, it's not actually about the salary. And one of these guys said, how do I be a good boss? And I said, well, just use my, my things. And they said, what do you mean? I said, right, say, how can I be a better boss to you? What's your work life balance? How are you feeling about that? How's the team? You know, if you get enough variety. I said, are we paying you enough? Because funnily enough, if you do Those, you cover 1425, about 80% of people's gripes and groans. So, yeah, it's a good way to do it if you like. So, yeah, it's a nice way to be able to do it. So I think so.

Super interesting, Mike. That was exactly what we were looking for from this One thing you've mentioned to us in the past and has been stuck with me and Guillaume for a while now. You mentioned that a treasurer in Coca Cola has a very different job to a treasurer in Pepsi, although they'll probably operate in similar markets and they have very similar product. But treasury aspect is so different. And that probably comes from what you've already mentioned, like the company culture and everything like that. The interesting side of that is when you've been a treasurer for X number of years, five years, 10 years, you're already grouped treasurer. How do you keep it interesting for yourself? Of all the people that you've interviewed and people you've moved around, some would assume if you're a treasurer in one company and treasure in another, then okay, you're still a treasurer, right? But is that how people keep it interesting in that career or is there other ways as well? That people keep learning new things, finding new challenges, etc. Once they've already hit the top of the mountain, let's say, or top of the ladder.

So if we talk about senior treasurers and just caveat, by the way, I don't know how Pepsi run it currently. I used to be a big recruiter for Coke and they have changed. Coca Cola is a group, but I do know the groups, but we're not giving any secrets away and stuff, so not really. The point we were making there is that they do a product that has similarities. They're not the same, we know, just so that we.

Totally different.

Yeah, exactly. So we're just. Just saying that. So is it different industries? It can be that. And that's one of the things that you might see someone move from FMCG into heavy industrial and they can transition, you know, and they. But also, we said earlier about different stages of evolution of treasury teams and treasury itself as well. That can be one of the key things that you go somewhere and they're a mess. There's nothing better for a treasurer sometimes as long as not, you know, too much of a mess to get in there and pay the wages. But you go in there and I sometimes you, you know, say to people, look, the first six to 12 months are probably going to be horrible. You know, a lot of stuff to sort out. You've got to get visibility on the balance sheet, you've got to get this stuff sorted out and everything. And inevitably, most of the time it's not quite that bad, you know, because they will come into it with some of their guiding lights. So some of them will go in with cash management, fx, Risk, Risk management in general. They'll have those in their back pocket and they go, right, this is. And, you know, systems and technology, and they'll bring those out of their sort of toolbox, if you like, and they'll bring those to play. And then they might hire a team and they might systematize and then they grow the team and they grow, you know, they go out and they meet all the team. But there does come a point a lot of the time, I find after sometimes say, five or six years, unless there's a shift or the company is expanding, doing acquisitions or when you get to that steady state, a lot of treasurers get bored and they're like, right, where's my next challenge? But I have seen treasurers in jobs for 15 years and, you know, I talked to them and they said, well, actually, I've worked for three companies and I'm like, oh right. But hang on, no, your business card. One company, they said, yeah, we were debt laden then we all cash rich floating the stock exchange. Then we delisted and we became like this. And it's like working. You know, you've got the same business card but you're doing three different treasurer jobs because all the mechanics change. That's one of the key things. So it's about that. But going back to the earlier part of the show, we said where do treasurers go next? I think again there's sometimes a frustration. There's so much out there. But all this new technology, new challenges, like all the stuff about crypto, all the stuff about cyber, all the stuff systems and everything else and coping with adversity. If it's not a pandemic, then it's a conflict in a different part of the world and how it's affecting all the other things that, you know, the treasurers have to cope with.

Yeah, so it probably comes from then. So the variety comes from industry like you said, FMCG to heavy industrial, for example, regions, I'm sure. Right. Then also, which is an interesting point you raised there, the evolution of the company itself. So you can get variety in the same role just because the cash position or the cash, let's say health of the company has changed so much or you can jump from a cash rich to a debt laden company to just get the extra challenge as well.

Yeah.

Anything else you'd add on that or.

Well, this comes back to another question that I was asked and what are clients seeking when they're the next treasurer? And I said also it depends on the attitude of the CFO and the company itself because some CFOs will see their treasurer in the role of custodian of cash and cash is king and. And that's it. And everything else. Other ones want them to be sort of visionaries about, you know, bringing in new technology and everything else. And someone said, well, you know, what, what's you know, is there a definitive answer? And I said, well the easy answer is it depends. And that was, you know, more established company sector. Are you wanting to, you know, change or remain the same with your next treasurer? Is it a new fast growth tech environment, debt laden, high cash, slower, more steady paced, established technology? And also another thing there is about where are you expanding to? You know, UK company may be expanding internationally, taking over another company in Europe or the US or vice versa. US company growing globally and taking up, and we're talking about these as major markets and Katie and I in the next episode we'll, you know, cover those a little bit. But yeah, that's sort of the role of the treasurer, as it were, in.

Your work, maybe to link a little bit with what you do as well on a daily basis. Mike, do you see at those levels? So the group treasury is a group treasurer's level, sir. So obviously they get interviewed by the cfo. Right. When you have a client who is looking for a group treasurer or really high level treasurers, there will be some sort of interviews. Is there an exchange? This is a two way street here. Like the group treasurer will also interview the CFO to know, okay, what are you going to entrust me with? What are going to be the missions? How do you see myself in the company as the cash keeper, as you just mentioned, or more to transform your treasury landscape whatsoever. Is it a two way street on that?

Yeah, very much so. And I think the, the way that I've positioned it, with a bit of a cliche, but it actually works up to say in UK terms, 100k depending on the exchange rate. In the US it's a lot more actually 150, let's put out those levels and then Europe somewhere in between. The key thing is up to that level roughly you're doing a role and I'll talk about treasurer or any treasure professional is executing a role you're delivering and it's about delivery of results of that role and things like that. When you start to move up to that sort of level and become a treasurer, it's not about just delivery of role because you're not going to deliver it necessarily, you're going to deliver it through your team and everything else. So when you're then being recruited, a lot of the time it's about does your face fit, does your handshake work, do you fit with the ethos exactly as you say of the, the cfo. So sometimes when I'm recruiting and oftentimes actually when I'm recruiting at that level, the first few rounds of interviews are meeting, HRT meeting, you know, do you fit with the company and ethos and everything else. And then often I'm saying right before you sign on the dustin line and say, yeah, this is the right role, you're then having a coffee with the cfo. And I've seen it fall down after that. Some people said, you know what, that's not someone I want to work with. You know, I had concerns or it's not right or, you know, it's not the way I want to go with my career because first of all it's selling yourself. Then also we said this before and other, some of the other podcasts about them selling themselves to you about why it's going to still take your career to the next level, why it's going to be a place you want to be engaged with as well. So it's, it's more of an exchange and interchange between the two.

This ethos you mentioned, it's quite a lot during this episode that's really at the core profile of the group to general. At least when we talk about those high levels ethos will really make the difference because you have two layers with all those interdependent part of the businesses tax cfo, but also with your team. Okay, that's. That's super interesting. What are we talking in terms of salaries? In the previous episode you meant the distinction between the uk, the us, Europe. Can we have a little bit of an overview here as well for really group treasurer, let's say, let's.

It's massive. That's the thing. It's so massive. It's like. But a group treasurer of a housing association in the UK will get paid £120,000.

Okay.

A global treasurer in America, you know, really Fortune 500, we've got a couple of. Some of those on the salary survey will be as a package doing three quarters of a million dollars. Someone in the Middle east. Right place as a global treasurer. Previously they were doing that. Plus on top of that they were then also getting all the other compensation benefits. So not just bonus everything else, but all their living costs. They were in. They weren't an expat, you know, they were localized. But the fact is they had all the other benefits. So there's such a massive range at the treasurer level. You know, it sort of goes up, if you like the bell curve as we go up each of them. When you get to the treasury level, that's when the group treasurer and then the step up to global treasurer really is significant. And again, I've said it so many times, but the best way to, you know, two things do the salary survey, treasury salary.com. but secondly again, when I was interviewed for this North American association of Treasurers recently, they said, oh, we don't operate like that. We have it differently. Like this flotilla of shop ships and boats. We talked about it, we're quite separate and stuff. And they said, well, well, we need some advice about this and this. I said, we'll give individual advice. You know, the one thing that is certain is uncertainty. They all Vary. They're all different. And that's the amazing thing about the variety of treasury, as it were. We'll put our LinkedIn details in the show notes. Amazing chat to you guys. Listen to all the other podcasts we've done. You guys have done their amazing. The other couple of shows and then we've got the other show with the three of us, plus the lovely Katie Hardy, you know, and she's actually got some value to add. Who knows?

Yeah, thanks a lot. Anything you would like to say to close up this episode, Mike? Maybe something we forgot to ask you or that.

No, just. I just think if you want advice, call us. If you need advice, email us. Just we're there to help. Whether you're recruiting or seeking advice with their, you know, it's, it's been a long term thing like one of my clients used to say years ago. For you, Mike, it's different your company, you know, it's not about the rent, it's about the mortgage. You know, we've been doing it 25 years or you know, I've been doing it 25 years. We're just coming up our 20th anniversary a few months time. It's a long term thing and we've seen all this growth and development. So no, just love doing it really and amazing to interrelate with you guys and you know, get to meet you.

So thank you like, thank you very much, Mike.

Thank you. Hello, it's Mike here again. I hope you enjoyed this week's show. If you did, then maybe you want to follow the show or subscribe depending on where you listen, whether that's itunes, Spotify or another great place to listen to the show from. It's totally free and means that you'll be the first to see each and every week when we release a new show. And maybe whilst you're there you could even leave a quick review. Reviews and ratings are among the most important some metrics for a podcast to effectively rank. And as you can probably appreciate, the podcast is a lot of hard work to produce. Every week it'd be amazing. Just take say 20 seconds, leave a quick review of my amazing guests and their great career stories. We'd really appreciate it. Thanks very much and I can't wait to see you soon.