Finding New Roles at the Right Times with Dennis Baljeu

Foreign.

Welcome to this week's Treasury Career Corner podcast where I interview treasury professionals.

About their treasury careers.

Each and every week I talk to them about how they've built their careers, where they are now, where they see both themselves and the treasury profession. Going to next. Let's get on with the show.

In this week's show, delighted to be joined by Dennis Baliot from Vanderlanda, the executive director of Treasury. There they go. My Dutch is getting a little bit better. They are a market leading global partner for logistics process automation in warehouses, airports, parcel sector. Massive growing ever since been going established in 1949, more than 9,000 employees. We're going to come back to the effect of that turnover of 2.4 billion euros. So massive global group which is great to talk to Dennis about later on in the show but as we do each and every week and he's a regular listener thank goodness, so he knows how this works. I'm going to take Dennis right back to the beginning, how he first started his career Finance, then Treasury and then up to now. So Dennis, back to you sir.

Yeah, well thanks for having me on this show, Mike. Going back to really the start of my career I must say when I was in early stages of my study I don't think treasury ever came about but I was given the opportunity to spend some time in this treasury coordination center in, in Belgium and there they were managing all these currencies and interest and working with banks and I thought hey this, this might be quite interesting. So during my time in university I then did some treasury courses and went into the corporate finance stream and say as part of a graduation I did an internship at ASML with the then treasurer. I remember I did this treasury manual and I did some analysis on the FX management and basically that was I think five or six months that has ended. Well then they asked me if I would like to stay but that like you said was more in the finance department where they just started with the implementation of SAP. And I thought on the one hand side, yeah, well this is not treasury. But on the other hand side I thought why not? And I must say I never regretted that decision because I learned a lot about finance processes, about implementing a system and making that crossover from a process to a system. But after say like two, three years there was a new treasurer at ASML and I think he had the task to say professionalize it. Didn't want to do that alone obviously. So he came to me and I guess then we started the end of the 90s, that's how old I am, yes. We started with the two of us and I in the end did that for over 10 years.

Explain to the audience ASML what was a group, why did they need a Treasury focus? Because I know they're a massive international tech company, but explain that a bit better.

Yeah, of course, yeah. At that time they were the tech company, not. Not the massive as they are today though when I joined they were already stock listed and quite global and in competition with some other companies.

So.

So at the time when I started at treasury, the two people, of course the obvious thing was the cash management financial risks. It was about financing both in the group and externally. Of course there was the shareholders to look at, there was insurances. So so basically the whole treasury spectrum and also the company grew fast, so also the department treasury grew quite fast. So I think after one or two years it was already like five or six people. A lot went on. ASML was a company very volatile, so periods of high growth and also periods of no growth or decline of business. So also from a business perspective a lot happens. So I learned a lot both in business and in finance and in Treasury.

And you say you learn a lot in Treasury. Tell us about those learnings. You know some people I was talking to someone just a couple of days ago and one of the things that they said was they'd been within two companies for a relatively short period of time and they were like oh I really shouldn't move, you know, I've got to get at least three years. And they said, you know, one of their previous companies, one of their bosses had been there like 15 years. How did you, you know, in a Treasury sense and perhaps for yourself, you stayed there for a period of time but wasn't you and I had this in the pre discussion it wasn't just one job, you were growing with the company as much sort of thing.

When I started, you could say I started as a rookie in treasury so I was called the cash manager and yeah, we all know what that is about. I think after one or two years got myself say an assistant who was then doing more the day to day job. And over that time I also did my fair share in corporate finance. I think the only thing at ASML I never did was insurances but all the other stuff I have been involved in and like you said then over time you grow in of course in knowledge and thereby teams grow that I left I had team of three people which was all about cash and risk and financing in the group, trade, finance, all that kind of things. So yeah, like I said, I stayed a long time at ASML and I always thought as long as I am still learning and I still feel I am developing myself within a great company as ASML is and was I don't have to leave or I don't want to leave for the sake of leaving. I remember at those days it was sometimes very popular to say you need to move within one or two years, which I think still today and also at that time do not agree with and. And because had to really get a grips for certain processes. And also of course not everything in treasury happens in a company in one or two years. I mean, you don't have a bond financing every year or two, so if you just miss out on that. So I always felt like as long as I have fun and I feel I can develop myself, I feel the recognition for debts, then I don't have to leave. Although I must say, in hindsight, maybe I stayed one or two years too long. At some point in time you get children, you get married and then the family, it takes over and having a job that is going maybe straightforward is nice. But at some point in time I started wondering, hey, I am at ASML for quite a long time.

When you were leaving at ASML you said you'd taken it from 1 and 2 back end of the 90s where, when you left, how many were in treasury by then?

When I left, the department was eight, right, eight people. And like I said, I started at some point to think about, hey, either I'm staying with ASML until my pension or I go and look somewhere else. And in the end of course I decided to leave. And that had basically had to do with at some point in time you don't grow anymore. So either I had to move out or maybe do something else within asml. I really, I love Treasury. So then I decided to leave and to go to another company which was and is much smaller, called Flisco, much smaller than asml. But I must say I never regretted for one second that I made that step because I learned so much and I was with flisco like only 4 1/2 years compared to ASML is short. But in those years I earned so much and that is also still in treasury, but also in finance, but also in general about people. That company was like a roller coaster with a treasurer really in the center. Because it was like the first two years I was in that company, you could say for every euro that was received, one euro was invested in further growth. Meaning liquidity was always A challenge. The second part of my time there, you could say there was still euro invested, but only 80 cents came in. So you can imagine what happens then with liquidity. So there was so much for me to do and to contribute, but it was also a rough time. You end up with almost close to bankruptcy. You could say a lot goes on in a company. I was the treasurer, but I was maybe also half of a controller. I was half of business manager.

But the audience, they don't know who. Well, some might know who Blisco are, but can you just explain the. What the company does?

Yeah, Flisco is a company from the Netherlands, but they are in fabrics and mainly to the western African market. So if you see women there in these beautifully colored dresses, then they are the brand. Flisco is from the Netherlands. There are also some brands and factories in Africa. It's a very old company, I think 175 years by now. Luckily you're still there. Has a great product, has a great history and also a great name in Africa. When you are in Africa and you are. They know you are from Vlisco, you are really treated with the utmost respect, you could say, because it's. It's such a famous brand over there, so.

Such a famous brand, fabrics, you know, lots of people need it, things like that. Why was there such high volatility then? Why was it such a. I know it's a goods company, textiles and everything else, but why would you say it was. And manufacturing. What. What was driving that volatility?

I think it was mainly driven by. By the way it was managed, to be honest. It was private equity. So it was a lot of debt put in the company, which was already hard to bear. It was clearly on a path, had to be sold in a couple of years. So it has to show a lot of growth, which in the beginning was there, but then also the market turned out against the company in like just macroeconomic situations. A lot of the fabrics are sold, like I said, in western Africa. There were on the downturn, instead of growth in revenue, revenue was stable or even declining. But if you had then maintained the same spend level, because you still believe management, you can turn that around, or it's temporary. In the end, you run out of money. Literally, you run out of money. So a lot of talks internally, obviously, but also with the banks. So at some point in time it got from worse to really worse. And there I was as the treasurer in the middle, so to say, which again, professionally was very interesting. Although there was also, of course, people had to be let off. That was also not nice.

You were with the group for five years and then how come you made the move and obviously into automation and logistics? Talk us through that.

Yeah, I was at Flisco and we were I think just after another refi. So the company was at least saved. And then I was just asked for this role in Vanderlander. I also learned, learned a bit from the ASML experience. And what I said, I maybe stayed a little bit too long and I thought, I'm looking at Vanderland as such an international company, fast growing. This probably is a once of a lifetime opportunity. So I said, okay, either I go for it and I leave VSCO maybe a little bit early than I would thought of, or I stay at Flisco and maybe after six or 12 months my role is a little bit done. So I decided to go for Vanderlande again. Also not regretted that, but also happy to see Vlisco is still around.

Obviously then so you made the move from there. Talk us through, if you would, when you got to Vanderland, what, what the company does, what the state of treasury was when you got there and how you've grown it, if you like since you, you joined in 2016. So talk us through.

Like you say, Vanderlanda is logistic automation for warehouses, express parcel and baggage handling systems at airports. When I joined, there was a small treasury team of two people, I think mainly into treasury operations, the cash and ethics management. And I think, yeah, one of my first tasks was bringing more of a structure around what is Treasury? Because I think a lot of people did not even know, even within Finance, what, what is treasury about? What do they do, what are their responsibilities and so on. It started a lot building further the department, the roles, responsibilities and the internal network, of course, as well as the external network. When I was with Vanderlande, I think about seven or eight months acquisition process started that we were. Well, we had Toyota Industries looking to acquire Vanderlande, which was in the beginning bit of a secret project. So I had to do that with some colleagues. But for example, my own treasury team didn't know. So that also gave a lot of things to do. So yeah, that was a bit of the start structure. There were no real policies, procedures in place, all those kind of things, you.

Know, market dynamics and the effect on treasury of Underlander. You've been through there for a number of years now. You've been through a Covid, you've been through global financial crisis. We look back just around then, you Know, we've been through pandemic. What's it been like for you there? And treasury, you know, what have been your key lessons, if you like, what have been things in your back pocket?

Probably a lot in the back pocket. In general, you know the saying, and never waste a good crisis. I think that also applies to treasury because in general, when there is some kind of crisis, if you can call it like that, people tend, in my experience, to have more focus on cash and liquidity and hence thereby on treasury as well. In any of these crises, you see that treasury comes more on the forefront. The Vliskov period, yeah, there was always some kind of crisis. But in the other companies, when things go very well, you might, I feel, sometimes as treasury, be a bit less visible. And also, of course, when everything you do works well, you have your processes in place, you have a good team, you have good systems and everything works well, you also then tend to become a little less visible because still, I think treasury is even within finance, not as much known as, I mean, everybody knows tax, because you have to pay it yourself. But treasury, most finance people don't know so much about it. So it is also in the back pocket. You have to do a lot of, say, internal marketing, I call it. Sometimes it can be in the forms of presentations or just reach out to your colleagues or explaining. So, and what is interesting in, In Van der Londe as different to the other companies I've been, Von der London is really a project company. We have a project in, then in country A, then in country B, then in country C. You go to a lot of countries for the first time. You need, you need a Treasury setup. That is of course also different than when you have a more fixed setting. And even two different customers in the same country can be really different. So that is also what makes it exciting at Funder London, because yeah, it's. It always changes what you're looking at. So.

And I know that you, you've got a real. Some of the conferences, do you focus a little bit more on liquidity, you know, because that's the way that you've know that. I've seen some of the comments you've made in the past that really liquidity is everything. You know, it's like cash is king and driving everything. How would you describe that? You know, someone listening today, is that one of the tips you give to people that you've got to get that vision on liquidity or why is that? So why are you so passionate about that?

I think that also comes a lot from the Vlisco experience, because if you run out of liquidity, yeah, in the end your business stops asml. I have seen years of very high P and L losses, but as long as you have money in the bank that you can pay your salaries and supplies with, there is not a real problem. But if your credit facilities are totally used, then you really have a problem. And again, yeah, I often use the expression like liquidity is like oil in your car. I mean, have people think about going to the gas meter and go to the petrol station and make sure in time they have enough gas, but nobody really thinks about oil until your car stops. And in my experience that is a little bit the same as around liquidity. And like I said, yes, passionate about it, because when you don't have it, well, the car stops or the company stops. And that what I find always interesting in a lot of people in finance are looking at gross margin or contribution margin and that's of course also very interesting. But we as treasurers, we look at liquidity and yeah, can we still pay our employees and our suppliers and et cetera, et cetera.

So as you say, sometimes people talk about turnover and as long as you got cash coming in and everything else, but at the end of the day, if you haven't got enough to pay the bills, then you're a bit stuck. So.

Exactly. Yeah.

And ethos is around treasury. You've got, you know, your treasury, other treasury professionals. You've been through the pandemic, Covid and everything else. What was that like for you guys? And particularly given a logistics business, I know that it has, you know, different effects and again, we talked about this before, but what was it like for.

You guys at the start of the pandemic? I think we at fund alone started the same as, as a lot of companies. I was heading this liquidity task force and we were having more task force because, yeah, we were running scenarios. If the business stops, how long can we survive? And of course we looked around it from, from many angles, I must say, had then actually, for us the opposite happened because in the two years of COVID we have grown as a company enormously because of course in the airports segment there was a bit of a decline, but that was much offset by especially the warehousing and E commerce sector. The impact on liquidity that we might have feared at the start of COVID luckily didn't materialize. That is what we saw during the two years.

And you and I were just talking before the show about, you know, you've got snow in the Netherlands and everyone's oh, wow. But the working style. Because we're just at the end of our latest salary survey for 2023 and what was interesting was my guy John, who does a lot of assessment of this, was going to the numbers and he's really great and analytical. I said, this is all great, you know, John, but it's a new world. He said, oh, yeah, yeah. No. I said no, literally for my clients. And we ask about who, you know, who's happy, who's sad in their roles and with their salary. I said, but now, as Craig before the pandemic or just the early days, he started to say, can we ask people about how many days are in the office? What's hybrid working doing for them? And I think sending my UK and European clients seem to have got their heads around it a little bit more. A lot of my US clients are still trying to get that happy balance. What's it like for you guys? Again, you described it a moment ago, but I was just going to get you to describe it for the audience, if you like.

Yeah. During the pandemic we have seen all kinds of forms being at home for weeks, but we have now say ended up at a model that we are say 60% of our time in the office. Although that is quite flexible. For example, for myself and my team, maybe the one week I am in the office, four days, sometimes even five. And maybe the other week one or two depends. You have the flexibility to check your calendar. For example, you have a day of teams call the whole day. Yeah. I mean you can just as well do that from home. And the other day when you have maybe some meetings with larger groups, it's more efficient to do that in the office. Personally, I like that flexibility and that to some extent your own choice in that. I like that very much. I see that in my team as well. And I think in general in the company it is well being taken up. And of course you used to meet with your team in the office. We nowadays we have some team goals now. And then, of course, during the pandemic, more than now, the way of working changed. Personally and also in my team, I think that is much appreciated. It gives much more flexibility, work life balance, I think improved. You save some time in the car going from and to the office. On the other hand, it not that you are working less hours. It's also my experience because when you are not bumping into somebody in the office, you have to make a call or an appointment. So some things take more time working from home. But other things also save time. So I think it's well balanced in.

The end, not quite at the end of the show, but I know another area that again we touched on but not really explored. I know that you've described in the past that technology is a key thing for you and you really like embracing that. But one of the things you said was, and I looked at some of the other articles that you've contributed to that. It's not written in stone, it's not like a map. It's actually much more flexible than that because technology is constantly evolving. How was that with you guys before we move towards the end of the show, you make use of technology, I know that you try and utilize it yourselves. What's it like for you? What are you seeing, technology wise, coming down the road?

We are of course as treasury, we are a small team from say FTE perspective. So the more things, processes or jobs, whatever we can automate or digitize as we call it today, of course, the better. I think technology also helps your people to grow because I mean when I started I had to fax payment orders to the bank. Yeah, I mean, some point in time you don't like that anymore. So the more you can automate, the more also your, you and your team can grow and doing the simple stuff, more automated. So that's why I've always like technology and just support at Vanderland, the Treasury, indeed we try to follow in the market what is out there. Do not really like to be like early adopter because our team is too small for that. We don't have a dedicated technology person or whatever. But of course we also do not want to be the last to know. So we follow market developments, talk with, I don't know, banks, fintechs or whatever companies and see which technology could help us in which process. Yeah, over the last years we have already seen in our team and our setup a lot of developments around that. And I think, yeah, for the future we have been looking but I think like everybody at AI machine learning blockchain, probably going not as fast as we thought a couple of years ago. I think we thought by now we would maybe already do some blockchain or whatever. Still not there. So it is still more about the systems that we have. Other systems may be better, more user friendly and that kind of thing. So that's what we are looking at. Yes, I think it's great.

Okay, we'll put your LinkedIn details in the show notes. And I think people have got some great value from this and it's going to expand your network and things. What are the tips you would give to maybe if you're earlier in your treasury career, you know, when looking back to ASML or when you first started and reflecting back on those days, you talked about moving roles in certain periods. Whether we touch on that or whether we think about what other treasurers should be thinking about. As you sit back in your armchair and you're not, you're still in your home office. But as you sit back, what would, what advice would you give to people or what do you think other people should be doing out there?

When you look at Treasury, I always like to have a bit of a broader focus. So treasury is there to support the business, but I don't like being like, say in the old days you would be like in an ivory tower. I really think we are there to support the business. So you should also know about the business. Business savvy, know about controlling and accounting as well to understand the whole picture. I always find that very important and not be like a. On the standalone position somewhere in an office as Treasury. So really be a business partner, have an open mind. But of course also have fun. I mean, do what you like and when you like treasury, it's a lot of fun. That's how I like to see it. For starters, treasury is very nice profession, can get you a long way in company. You can really contribute a lot to your company, although maybe sometimes you have to explain it a little bit. But yeah, I would say fun being a business partner, open mindsets. That is a bit of the keywords I would use.

Amazing. I sometimes give it a little closing statement, but you've just done it for me. Fantastic. Thank you. Great to see you. We'll put your LinkedIn details in the show notes and look forward to catching up with you. Well, as we move forward and get back face to face at various conferences and things like that, and I look forward to the future. So thanks very much for your time today, sir.

Yeah, thanks Mike, very much also for the opportunity. And yeah, we'll meet again.

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