How Global Treasury Teams Evolve: Lessons from Intel and Twilio

Foreign.

To this week's Treasury Career Corner podcast, where I interview treasury professionals about their treasury careers. Each and every week I talk to treasurers about how they build their careers, where they are now, where they see both themselves and the treasury profession going to next. Let's get on with the show. In this week's show, I'm joined by Chris Blow, senior Director of treasury at Twilio. Twilio is a software company that strengthens businesses by unifying their data to build insightful paths to customers so they're smarter with every interaction and able to outmaneuver their competition. Over across 180 countries, millions of developers and hundreds of thousands of businesses use Twilio to create magical experiences for their customers. Chris will explain who Twilio. We're going to go right back to the beginning. Chris is a regular listener to the show when he's out walking the dog. Chris, if you would take us back to the beginning how you first started in finance, the treasury, obviously I've known you for many years, so over to you, sir.

Hey, Mike, great to be here, thanks for having me. And as you say, avid listener and walking the dog. It all goes back to activating a college or university. I was studying mathematics at the time at the University of Portsmouth and I got on the wind that in the business school there was this year in industry opportunity, right. So you do your first two years, you disappear for a year and then you come back. But it wasn't something that's being offered, you know, in the. The school of Mathematics. So I started applying, ended up opportunity interview with intel, got offered the chance to go there. The roles were on the side at the time. It was like a blanket, hey, you're applying for an internship in finance, right? I ended up getting put in accounting, which was. It was a great experience, good kind of exposures of the real world. The company was fantastic in terms of the culture, the people, the community. Like they had a number of graduates. The accounting team was also a really good team, very diverse, it was premier focus. But there was guys on the team from Israel, Egypt, Russia, and so it was a really interesting place to be. But I didn't like the accounting piece.

Essentially, and for me we touched on it, that you're joining intel who are obviously computer chips and everything else, or what was intel at the time? This is back in 2009. So what was the company like then?

It was a market leader, right. This was just after the iPhone. So I think at the time, like, intel wasn't taking abuse for missing the Smartphone. It's been a bit more of an interesting story since then. I actually knew intel very well as a kid. My dad was a physics teacher and we used to spend a lot of time kind of playing around making our own PCs. So I was actually pretty well versed. So like when I got that opportunity, like, oh, this is cool, like I actually understand this.

I know the company.

Yeah, it was in Swindon, which is a bit of a move for me at the time, but actually it turns out, great city for grads, nice old town, cheap cost of living. The company itself, time was, I would say, a market leader and not in the where we are today with disruptors of things like Nvidia and tsmc. Like, it was a very different environment at the time in kind of the late 2000s at Intel.

And that was your internship, if you like. So you'd, you would suddenly used to getting up proper time and then you were thrown back to university.

So I've never been very academic. My general feeling is I think exams are pretty poor judgment on people's skill sets. But I was always worried about my final year. But then when I went back, you know, frankly, it was a walk in the park. He went from doing 40, 45 hour weeks to then being asked to do 50% of that plus a couple of pieces of coursework. And so that was actually a fact. Almost like a holiday in the end, I think when you look back and you talk to people. My final year at university was, that was the real year that I got work done. Whereas for me it felt like a bit of a year off, which is nice and it's always easy in hindsight. Right. You probably see this yourself. Like you always think you had it hard at the time and then you get into the working world, then you go into working well with young kids and all of a sudden you're thinking, wow, like I had so much time in the past compared to I have today. No, that was, I think it was a. For me in my career. Although early on I think it was a good level setter.

Right, so then talk about you, you rejoined Intel. How did you then get into treasury and things?

Yeah, just pot luck. As I said, I wasn't sold in the accounting piece, was sold on Intel. There was probably, I think what the numbers went up. There was 100 in the kind of internship program and maybe 10, 15% of those came back in various roles. So finance or sales or accounting, whatever it was. And so there was a number of finance roles more on the revenue finance channel. Finance, accounting, tax and then this kind of treasury black box. And I knew a little bit because my housemate during my internship year, he had to do his internship in the treasury team. So I knew a little bit about it. But there was this opportunity there at the time. They'd also decided they weren't going to take on an intern the following year in Treasury. They were basically creating a graduate role in Treasury. I think just because the, because some of the knowledge was quite niche. That kind of 12 month turnover was disruptive in a way. Consider it was a relatively small team in the region. So anyway, so there was this, was this role and I said, yeah, sure, let's give that one a try and start the company I loved. And I was lucky. Where a lot of the graduates that came back were my friends and people I spent a lot of time with. Yeah. And then it balloons from there. But I'd always been interested in markets and what's going on in the world, that side of things. So actually the kind of numbers background combined with the more kind of focus on what's happening in the world and linking the two together in hindsight was interesting. And where we spent the last 13, 14 kind of years of my career.

Yeah. And then. So talk us through what treasury was like at that stage, how it was structured to give everyone listening. You were then at intel for 10 years or so from then, but you were all the way through the uk, then the Netherlands, then the us. So just walk us through those and what treasury was and, and everything else for the listeners, as if you're a listener, if you like.

Sure. So I think at the time when I joined treasury was still very much more regional. So we had kind of US team covering America, a team in the UK covering emea. And then we had team in Asia, primarily in what was at the time Singapore, but then became China and India covering Asia. And what transitioned over time is rather than having regional centers, we ended up having kind of global functions rather than in the region doing its cash management investments. You have a global lead that would then run a matrix structure across the various regions. So I started out doing the kind of more treasury operations, cash management, I guess you call it middle office type function in the EMEA region, which eventually, as I said, we got more functional broken. So you had someone who was leading like global FX or kind of interest rate hedging, someone leading cash and investments globally. Treasury operations got centralized in centers of excellence in India and Colombia. Debt capital markets was primarily run out the US because it was hedge headquarters. So that's what really changed? But the scale also was, if I look at it today versus me at Twitter, the scale was just in a different world. Right. We also had credit and collections fell on the treasury as well as insurance and a few other pieces. A few other pieces. So we were probably.

How many people were in treasury in total? How many?

Yeah. 150, 200. I would say probably that 50% was credit inflection. So maybe if you carve that piece out and then.

So you started a Treasury analyst, what was that like for you and you discovered treasury, was it like again for the listeners, some learnings from that time.

I made a lot of mistakes. That's the good and bad part of treasury. Right. Is when you do something that's visible on the good side and the bad side. I was very lucky at the time. My first boss was from the US but was on assignment in the UK and he was a very forgiving guy, very patient guy. And I think intel was like a very safe space. I would say you were given opportunities. If you made mistakes, you were allowed to learn from those mistakes. It's different between making mistakes and making the same mistake. And so at the same time because of we're a global treasury, we've moved people around. So we've had a guy come over from India, we've had a couple of people come in from the us, we pulled someone in from Russia. So actually that team was almost like a hot pot of kind of global experience within Treasury. And actually one of the things I really miss about intel is the ability to just the knowledge you had around you. So for me at the time, in my early 20s, you could just. There were no stupid questions and there was always some expert that would knew it in great detail which was certain, which was fantastic at the time and.

Talk through then the development. I said you were there for 10 years, so walk us through the progression. And then also the international moves as well.

Yeah, progression super high level, went from middle office, kind of cash operations, things like working on in house bank and kind of corporate restructurings especially some of that was around Russia at the time with the first kind of annex of Crimea and a lot more on the system side. So we'd had an in house built tms, we went to Quantum or Sun God. So there was that piece and then a lot of kind of connectivity around connect up to speed with SAP and integrating some of the legacy stuff and then some work around compliance and use of bots. So that was the kind of middle of his piece. But it's still very Operational. And then in between that and the next role, which is more in the FX kind of hedging, risk management space, we'd had this initiative at intel where we were trying to consolidate our global cash pool. At the time, there was three or four in the world. And it was also at the time when those cash pools tend to sit in regions that were becoming politically unfavorable. Cayman Islands, this kind of thing. Right. And there was an initiative where we were going to consolidate our international cash into a region or into a country. And I was working on that with a colleague, and it came down to either the Netherlands or Switzerland. I didn't know at the time I was going to end up being shifted to where we ever ended up. So if I'd known that, maybe being an avid steer, I might have said Switzerland. But yeah, and so that kind of came along when we put the cash pool in the Netherlands. We had. There was conversations at the time around substance. Do you have the people who are investing the cash in the country? Do you have auxiliary functions, accounting, tax, whatever there? So that's essentially what happened. We added tax, accounting people. We needed treasury people to go. Everybody else said no, and they were like, okay, we better ask Chris. Like scraping the barrel. But at the time, for me, it was easy because I didn't have a mortgage, I didn't have kids. And the guys who were being asked, they did have young kids, they did have a mortgage. So there was more complexity. Frankly, it was a very short move. It was when I was trying to meet with banks and they were living kind of Swindon way. It's actually quicker to me to get from Amsterdam into Kerry Wharf than it is to get from Swindon. It wasn't a too big a shift. And so that was the Netherlands piece. And the other kind of nice change on the Netherlands piece is we were hiring people in, but we were hiring people in from within the business, but from other parts of the business, from the credit team, from broader finance role. So they knew intel, but they didn't necessarily know Treasury.

Yeah.

So, like a great opportunity for me to help guide those guys and integrate those guys into treasury and understand a little bit more what does it mean to form a team and that dynamic. My time at the time, my boss was actually based in Israel, so we had some legacy UK people who hadn't shifted to the Netherlands. We had a group in the Netherlands and we had a group in Israel. And so it was an interesting dynamic and it came with its own set of challenges. And at the same time, I was then Transitioning away from the kind of middle office to war front office role. On the FX side, which again was a relatively easy transition, like on the kind of cash management side, I did a lot in the spot FX space. I understood a lot of the kind of entity structures and the flows. And it was a similar story on FX as it was on the broader business about consolidating, bringing into a centralized program, not having differences in the region, doing kind of less, but doing it better. So rather than hedging, I think at one point we were like 15 currencies. I think we end up close to five or six. And really looking at that and saying, okay, what's driving the risk and how do we shrink that program down and make it more efficient without putting forward risk for the business? Which was a big chunk of kind of what we did in the Netherlands, plus some compliance stuff like at the time.

And you mentioned they're sort of making moves. I know that when I had Chan from PayPal on the show earlier this year and we talked about him moving from the west coast of the US to Singapore, and then he came back again and I asked him, making international moves? Because you followed it from Swindon to the Netherlands and then to the US So how did that come about?

Yeah, so I think the Netherlands was always going to be somewhat of a dead end. And I knew that going in the sense that if you could have, probably could have stayed there forever. Although now with what's happening in German restructuring, it would have been. That would have been challenging. But it was certainly like it was creating a ceiling. And my ambition has always been to get to the US Because I wanted to be at the headquarters. Because as much as we say people in the region do drive strategic change and influence what's happening, it's a lot easier to do that at the headquarters. Right. Whether that's US headquarters or otherwise, there's always the plan going in. The challenge was like, could I leverage the Netherlands to get enough advocates? And we talk about a lot of this with kind of people coming up through Twilio and saying how important it is to have advocates. Right. There's going to be situations when people go into the room and talk about you and it can't just be a boss, right? It needs to be. It needs to be their peers. It needs to be their, their managers that understand, have a relationship with you. And I was very lucky at intel because through kind of projects and through kind of the consolidation or the globalization of the functions, I spent a lot of time with those people and Also I had bosses that were very good at giving me recognition and giving me visibility and giving me opportunity. And I that that luck slash intention is somewhat carried through the Twilio sense because if I look at today I happened to work through the now CFO for 12, 18 months before she became CFO. Right. So sometimes you get lucky. I also, until a couple of the bosses I had also transverse levels relatively quickly. Yeah, that's helpful.

You make that luck in some ways as so you then became senior treasury manager out in California and then headed back or what happened after that period of time.

So California was fantastic at intel just because I was still doing when I first transitioned across the hedging role, essentially the same role I was doing in the Netherlands, but now just from the U.S. right. And so we had a kind of a matrix structure. So the team had India, China, Europe and then in the US but it was became very much more a job about educating the business unit. CFO's why we're hedging, what we were trying to do, why it mattered, what it meant for their part of the business. And originally I thought yeah, that's an on time exercise. But the thing is we had five or six business units. Their pho heads would roll over every 18 months, 24 months. So basically every quarter you were re educating somebody. Right. And at the same time we were spending a little bit more time. We had a hedge committee that we presented to CFO and I'd done that in the past as coverage like over the phone, but now you're doing it person. So I think it was great in terms of getting exposure and learning how to talk to senior folks. Right. What you should say, what you shouldn't say. But I think that kind of comes back to what I said, like intel being a very safe space, like you're allowed to make mistakes. The feedback was very constructive and very timely. So that was the biggest part of being with intel in California was frankly was the exposure and the kind of one off projects. Because if we were doing some kind of M and A deal or some kind of strategic investment like that information wouldn't typically flow out to the regions. So there was a lot more kind of project type stuff going on and just the ability to essentially we had most of the kind of functional leads there as well as credit collections, retirement investments, insurance. So there was opportunity to talk to these guys, get involved in projects like leverage the kind of knowledge you had on the more core treasury function and then work with those guys on other initiatives, which was super interesting and Then in terms of what happened there, it's more of a personal diet advocate that said, yeah, my wife had been great the whole way through this. Like when we moved to the Netherlands and when we moved to the us like when we were first talking about going to the Netherlands, she joked, not even a joke. I guess she was deadly serious that we weren't going abroad. And there was this classic inflection point where one of her friends said you'd never do it and that was the end of it. Like it was done deal as far as I was concerned. Once we got that, moved to the Netherlands, the first thing that she said when we landed was, hey, we're not going to the US which is how things ended up. Yeah, but a lot more difficult to integrate in the US than in the Netherlands. It sounds weird. Like we always think of like the UK maybe is a special relationship with the US or like 51st state or whatever you want to call it. The culture is very different, like even California, just in terms of the ease of getting around the. Just the general environment. Like it's actually feels a lot more homely or familiar in the Netherlands than it doesn't in the United States. I think we just had harder, more challenging degree in the United States. And then my oldest son, who's four now, who. But he was born, so there was a bunch of surgeries and he's doing great now. But there was a lot of stress at the time and part of that dynamic was I think we need more help and that's very hard. Like at the time it was covered as well. So yeah, we got to this point where it was not an automaton, but hey, I'd like to go home. And then for me, selfishly I was trying to figure out can I get the best of both worlds, right? Can I stay in the kind of west coast tech bubble, so to speak, but can I get my family where they want to be in the uk? And I was lucky in the sense that the guy who was running treasury or he was actually running investor relations and treasury was a one man band at the time I knew him, who was a guy ex Intel. I worked for a number of years and he actually lived close by, ended up being always a close friend. And so we would joke about it, right? Oh, wouldn't it be funny if this kind of worked out and then it did. And what was interesting in that dynamic for me is when I joined Twitter, it felt very familiar because a lot of the process, or at least initial processes were based on my previous Colleagues experiences at Intel. Also when he was talking about putting new policies in places at Twilio like we would chat about it.

Explain for the audience if you would. So you made the move to join Twitter. Who are they? I gave a little bit of the header of the shirt.

Yeah. So as you say, there's a lot of spill here, but we're a customer engagement platform and the way to think about that really is we're trying to help business bring together data communications and with some kind of layer of intelligence to help them interact and understand their customers. And so what does that mean? What's an example of that? If you think of say Uber for example, where like you may interact with Uber like for an app, but there's some facilitation that happens in the background in terms if you try to call the driver through the app then connects to their cell phone. Right. So some of the plumbing. There's examples in terms of how we might manage with dominoes, in terms of how you interact with them through the app, how you might interact with them through the kind of help center, how you might also get coupons or kind of customer feedback from them. So it's very much every aspect of communications. And they're now trying to add the data layer and an AI. And I think where Twilio is really well positioned is the misconception on AI is the bit that matters is the models.

Yeah.

And although they're very important, the bit that matters is the data. And frankly like who owns the data or who has access to the data. And so if you look at companies like Google, Amazon that do a great job of basically taking your data and then using that data to provide you personalized experience, Twilio essentially wants to do that for everybody. And I think this kind of AI wave is just the kind of catalyst that Twilio needs to super Internet to market and scale. I think we've been making some good progress there. Tough couple of years in the tech industry. Lots of restructuring, people getting a little bit ahead of their skis in the kind of COVID boom. But I think right size and more focused on the kind of near term future.

Now tell us about treasury there sort of thing. So how is treasury structured? Again, obviously it's to try and give some value for the audience about the dos and don'ts of treasury if you like.

Yeah. Much more simple in terms of structure. As I said, it used to be so Twitter IPO in 16 basically from 16 through to beginning when treasury was like 50% of one person.

Yeah.

And the other 50% was IR and there was a lot going on. It was much more a case of let's keep the business running. Yeah, we'd had various equity offerings, we'd had a debt offering, we had a convert. And so when I joined they had just hired a manager and so there was two of us. And then at the beginning of 22 we had a third person and then at the beginning of 24 we added a fourth person. But we've been very intentional, right? I think when we hired in 20, it was an internal hire. I was like the classic worst case scenario, right? You walk into a new organization, you're like, okay, let's get a valley of the land. And then within a week I was like, I'd like some more headcount. At which the answer was no. But if you can find somebody internally that's interested in role and go ahead. First I just saw this great girl. Her name's Margaret or Mag. She sits in Ireland, background in accounting, accounts payable, just really process driven, really hardworking, but also knew everybody. She'd been at the company now for six, seven years. She worked with all the people internationally. So she instantly gave us that connection to those stakeholders that we didn't have in the past. And she's been great ever since. She continues to drive basically treasury operations for the company. She's working on things like dashboarding, reporting, some really cool stuff. And then Jen, who had been hired just before I joined, who's based out on the east coast, she would have been the one man banned treasury shop. In her previous role she was accounting and identified that basically there was this whole treasury function they should care about. And so she was super in depth on payment. She also worked on all the currencies on the FX risk management side and generally really great in a crisis. Right? And so they're actually not even great in a crisis. She's the kind of person that sees it coming a month, a couple of months before anybody else.

Hello, it's Mike here from the treasury recruitment company. You've just been hearing my voice here talking to another amazing guest, but I just thought I'd jump in. I hope we're linked on LinkedIn at LinkedIn.com forward slash Mr. Treasury, Mr. Treasury, you and I. That means that then I can share our latest video blogs. I do them each and every week where I talk about how to get your next pay rise, how to improve your career, how to find your next role. If you're looking to recruit, I'm here to help connect to me on LinkedIn. I'll be looking forward to it. Just say Mike, heard your message on the podcast, thought we'd connect. Let's get on with the show. You've heard the podcast that I asked people about where they see the challenges for treasury and things like that. You're the treasury director there. What are you using as the. The key challenges for treasury at the moment?

I think a broader challenge is. Is resource.

Right.

I think it's the same for all functions. Right. It's not just a Treasury problem, it's a general kind of gna. Right. Do more with less. And so it's really, I think, a technology play. Right. And also where do you want your expertise to be? So classic example would say, like at intel we invested all around cash. Right. We had a team of five or six globally doing that. Whereas at Twilio we use certainly manage accounts or asset managers. I'm not saying one is better than the other, but it's definitely different in terms of resourcing, right?

Yeah.

Similarly, like leveraging tools on your. On the FX side, like leveraging certain TMS partners. Like when I go and talk to peers and especially when I through kind of various benchmarking groups and things, there's a stark difference, I think between especially maybe like the tech space or the younger, the newer tech space versus some of the more legacy tech. So let's say this just Siemens, IBM, intel, hp, Dell, you want to call them, in the use of technology and resourcing. So that was an eye opener for me because we essentially do almost everything we were doing at intel. We do at Twilio. The scale slightly different, but it's still a relatively, it's a relatively heavy lift. But again it's pros and cons. Right. Because you also got a lot more visibility now I. In company in the previous role, intel, maybe once a quarter I'd be presenting to the CFO in the role of Twilio presenting regulator, cfo, talking to the board relatively regularly, the C suite, know who you are. So your ability to drive change is just amplified because of your access, essentially. Yeah.

And where do you see treasury going next? What are the new things? You again, you've heard this. What other areas do you think the treasury needs to deal with?

Yeah, the phrase that gets thrown around a lot is this strategic treasurer. Right. Which I, I agree, but I do think there's almost like a fundamental right to be earned and I was talking about this just yesterday actually. Yeah, it's really. I think you also got to have your house in order. And you've got to have job one like just down.

Right.

It's nobody comes to treasury in those instances unless that goes wrong. I think we talked about this in the past. Like the challenge in treasury is that you typically get a lot more visibility when things are going wrong and there's a lot more pressure on you to perform. And if you don't perform like there are repercussions not only into the business but also to you as a function. So I think you've got to have that, you've just got to have that down and it's always going to be forefront in mind. But being this kind of catalyst across the business. Right. So the treasury has the benefit of working with all kinds of stakeholders, whether that be corporate, FBNA or finance side. Maybe it's more accounting, tax, whatever it might be. Like you can, we can connect the dots essentially. And we also have access to data that people don't think about in terms of. There's an accounting way of looking at things. There's also cash way of looking at things. Right. What's really happening in my business, we're even looking at initiatives now in treasury at Twilio, like how can we be a strategic partner or a pipeline driver for sales and product. Like we have all these products that are utilized by financial services industry like Treasury. We have all the contacts in financial services. Like we talk to these guys all the time. How do we then leverage those relationships to drive ARR or revenues for business? So I think that's the change. Rather than treasury being an operational function. I've heard some people describe it as shifting from a cost center to a profit center. I don't think that's quite the right way of saying it, but along those lines essentially cool.

And just we wrap up each show each week sort of thing. Takeaways. If you look back over your career here or again, it's great you've heard the show before. You know how we finish it. We'll put your LinkedIn details in the show notes. But what are the takeaways you would say for?

I always, I think, live my career by. If you don't ask, you don't get. Okay.

Right.

And the worst case someone can say is no. And that's worked out very well for me. I also think if you're going to do that, you have to have a mindset that you're going to say yes, people want to. If people aren't going to bring problems to you, if you're going to help them. So I think that general mindset is helpful. I think for me, looking back on kind of career so far, I wish I could have learned a bit earlier and obviously we learned for our careers, but I think I had this wealth of kind of knowledge and through peers and things at intel that often gave me really great advice. But sometimes it took me a couple of years to really digest that and to implement it. And so when I look back now in certain situations, oh, you made life hard for yourself there, Chris. Have you just done what X has said? But rather than saying, I know what I'm doing, I think it could have made life a little bit easier. The other one that I haven't done, which obviously people talk about, you get it on the podcast as well, is like breadth. Right. In terms of finance breadth or business breadth. That's one thing I haven't really done. Like, I've had the opportunity where changing countries and I spent a lot of time working with different cultures and different parts of the business. I haven't gone and done an FPA role. I haven't gone and done an OPS role. And I think if I look where I am in my career now, 15 years in, if I was to change something like somewhere in the middle there, should I have done that or could I have done that and would that be easy to get or do five, 10 years into your career versus 15, 20 years into your career? I think I'm down where it is. And so you don't realize early on in the career like the decisions you make a bit like when you're at school. Right? Yeah. Like you start to narrow your. Narrow your funnel, which is fine. If you like your funnel, that's fine. And I do like my funnel. But at the same time, like the world is a. Yeah. Is an ever changing place. And so keeping those. Your skill sets broad enough events like yourself as you go forward, I think that's something that I think we generally we underappreciate and I certainly underappreciate it going up. Not to say again that people didn't tell me that. I think people said a lot. The challenge I had for me at the going for the career is typically the people who were telling me that had never lived it themselves, which I always find hard when I was talking about moving countries, like the guys who'd be telling me about it saying, oh yeah, 100%, you should definitely do that. Like these guys have worked for infield for 25 years in Swindon. And I think at the time I was saying that's hot. It's easy for you to say because you never did it. But then when I look at it now, I think these guys were probably saying it because similar to me, they're like looking back saying, oh, I wish I'd done it. So I think that experience has changed my perception on people's advice.

Right.

I think initially I found it harder to respect what people are saying, but now obviously understand they're not saying what they've done, they're saying what they wish they did.

Yeah. They're giving you future advice for you rather than what they wish they'd done.

Yeah. Yeah. And so I think that that makes all of a sudden it all start to click into place. And I guess as you go through your career, there are points in time where you make a decision or you heed or don't heed some advice, which then five, 10 years down the line you're like, oh, I get it. And so I think there's been a lot of that for me in the last.

No, great. I was gonna wrap up there because I just think it's been great. We talked through your journey and given some good takeaways. And you can listen to yourself when you're walking your dog next time as well.

I cannot think of anything worse. Lovely.

Thanks very much.

Thanks, Mike.

I hope you enjoyed this week's episode just as much as I did recording it. Now. Don't forget to subscribe on your usual platform with that Spotify Apple podcast wherever you listen to your podcast so you never miss a future episode. Want to stay ahead in Treasury? Fantastic. Sign up for our newsletter. There's a link in the show notes. You'll get instant access to my Pay Review Action plan for you treasury professionals Free guide to help you prepare for salary negotiations. Maximize your salary at your next pay review. You'll also get early access to our 2025 Treasury Salary Trends white paper. And if you take part in our salary survey as well, @treasurysalary.com we can send you our January review of salaries as well. And by signing up to the newsletter, you'll get access to our cv, resume templates, career tips. What could be better? It's amazing. If you're looking for a role, go to the website treasuryrecruitment.com or maybe even join us at any of our 2025 events and conferences. We Right the way across we're going from the US back through the uk Right the way across Europe. Dublin. It's gonna be a great year in 2025, so looking forward to it. Go to our events page, treasure recruitment.com events and sign up. Meet us in New York in March or anywhere else you want to see us in the rest of the world. Thanks for listening. Until next week. See you soon.