How The Treasury Recruitment Industry Has Changed Over 20 Years: Mike Richards In Conversation with Richard Bostock

Hello and welcome to our first podcast. You might have already gathered that we like talking with people who have interesting and insightful stories to tell. If you like this episode, do feel free to share it via social media. And if you have comments or even suggestions for other topics, do get in touch with me at richard abeona europe.com today we'll be talking with Mike Richards, who is a veteran of the recruitment industry, but more importantly, he's the founder and CEO of the treasury recruitment company. Although he's based in London, he recruits treasury professionals internationally and he also runs his own podcast series where he interviews people working in Treasury. Mike, a very warm welcome to you. How's your week been so far?

It's very good, Richard. Although as I said to you before we started the show, this is again, a bit weird when on the other side of the microphone, I'm usually the one answering or asking the questions and getting clients to answer it. And I always think to myself, stop waffling Richards, shut up. It's quite an interesting one where you're actually going to get your own back and ask me the questions. Yeah, be easy on me, be gentle. Yeah, well, it's quite funny. It's Mr. Boss Doc, it's your podcast. Let's run it how you want to. What do you want to know from me? I mean, as you say, I've been in treasure recruitment over 20 years. I do a podcast which I love, talking to treasurers and you and I spoke before and you said, actually, why don't we get on, talk about relocation and this is going to form part of our special series. It's over to you, Richard. You get your own back and you get to ask me some nasty questions. So don't be too hard, they won't.

Be nasty, don't worry about. But, but, you know, just, just wanted to get under the skin of Mike Richards a bit and try and understand, you know, recruiting, what your insights are from, from the last, I think, 20 odd years you've been, I mean, for a start, over 20 years, there must have been some evolution in industry.

Yeah, definitely. I mean, the huge change, I think the first one is actually treasury itself. So I'm a Treasury recruitment specialist. I discovered treasury many years ago. We'll get into that a bit later, but by accident, a little bit. Didn't know what it was when I first started, but met a lot of treasurers like them, but you generally find they're very relationship focused, very focused on the future. And also, you know, when you go out for a drink with Them, and if it's a serious drink, they're the first of the bar and usually they're the last to leave it. And I thought, I like these people. These are. These are, you know, very outgoing and insightful, you know, accounting and finance guys and things like that. And I think that then reflects onto how treasury has evolved as well. Because when I first did it, some of those treasure guys were loving treasury because it gave them a bit of an ivory tower, so meant they got a jump in salary. They were the specialists and everything else. They were, you know, look at us. Oh, you have to go to the treasury guys over there. But actually, I think treasury has gone, come down from its ivory tower and come back to work really closer to the businesses. And the more that treasury integrates with businesses nowadays, rather than just be these standalone specialists, I think it's maybe, if you like, given Treasury a real seat at the table and it's becoming more of a natural career choice. When I'm doing a lot of the talk on the podcast, a lot of the treasury guys, I say, oh, how did you get into Treasury? Oh, I discovered it by accident. I was working in finance, saw these treasury guys. Oh, they're having a good laugh. Oh, that's an interesting. They all fell into it. Whereas now, you know, you can study treasury as part of your college degree, a university degree and things like that. And it's becoming much more recognized. You'll see it much more in the mainstream. And I think also there are other things, like technical advancements, you've got technology and, you know, everyone talks about blockchain straight through processing. So I think it's actually meaning that treasurers themselves are having a much more strategic role. And I think that's how the treasury industry itself has evolved. And that's also then impacted on the job I do. So when I'm doing my recruitment piece, the guys I'm talking to, you know, much more technically strong and, you know, it's not slowing down, if anything, it's just sort of ramping up the speed of it. And I think I sometimes feel a little bit, some of these treasurers, that they're sort of just running or sometimes sprinting just to stand still in a way to keep up with technology. But, you know, they're doing really well and a growth industry, as it were. So, yeah, I'm really enjoying it.

Yeah. I mean, the running just to stay still, I think is a bit symptomatic of the general business climate today. But I do recognize what you say about treasures having sort of fell into it. They started out and yeah, the evolution is interesting in the industry. However, one thing I certainly ask myself often is someone like yourself, you must have thousands of candidates or at least hundreds of candidates for specific positions these days. What sort of difficulties do you typically encounter when trying to about this actually.

A while ago and it's hard to pinpoint specific difficulties. Every assignment we get is different. And it's funny, I spoke recently in Chicago and I stood up in front of the audience. I think they thought I'd gone mad, which isn't entirely likely. But aside from the madness, I said to the room, I said, look, what's, what's interesting about you guys is there's 20 treasury managers, there's 20 treasurers. You'll do exactly the same job using the same tools in exactly the same way, you know, because you're very similar industries and all like sort of stare back at me and went, are you crazy? I said, do you know what? That's the point. It's, it's not, you know, everything is different. Everything is, you know, that was very cliched and things like that. But in actual fact it was true because when I spoke to them, I said, one treasurer does a job one way and then another guy does it in a different industry. They got exactly the same title and the way that they approach problems is different. So I think that that's where, that's where the fascination for me is. And I think that's where everyone talks about we were being replaced by robots and AI. I'm pretty sure my job is safe because if they could just do this, this very open ended skill of recruiting, then if they could do that, I'd be replaced overnight. I think the matching is where we add the value and meeting people and things like that. But I think the flip side, if you like, is probably the employers themselves where they need to realize that they're not the customer anymore, the candidates themselves are the customers. I wrote an article a few years ago and perhaps I'll put a link to it in the show notes but. And I literally wrote about it and I did this with a couple of clients I'm recruiting for at the moment and I'm trying to have to say to them, it's not about you anymore, it's about them. And they were like, you know, and I try and explain this to people and I said, look, you've got to make yourself the most attractive employer to attract someone to come and join you. You can't just sit back, put an advert on the Web or on LinkedIn or wherever you might put it. You know, one of my clients I'm currently recruiting for, very high profile. They, they put up a big advert. Everything else, 280 applicants they had, all through LinkedIn. Wow. Amazing. They didn't get a match. They didn't find that right person. And I think there's a few reasons for that, but one of the other reasons is that a lot of clients, even in that situation, might have a big brand. Everything else, they just put up the advert, this big sign and say, come to us and expect people to flood in. That's not the way of the world anymore. Client candidates, rather, they still can vote. It's a flexible employer, employee market, rather. And when I first started, there was still coming out of a session where it was a lifetime, you know, one job for life. And now it's not. It's a lifetime of different jobs. You know, I've said that on a number of topics before, that you'll stay in a role for maybe three to five years, you might move up with the same employer and stuff like that, but you're not going to stay as the treasurer doing the same job for 20 years. That doesn't happen anymore.

Yeah. Interesting thing you said, Mike, about companies not being able to get a match despite having a couple hundred applicants.

Yeah.

Would that be because their requirements are too specific or unattainable?

I think that can be part of it. I think they are searching sometimes for a unicorn. So they are saying they must have five years, must have 10 years experience. What do you really need 10 years experience to do that job? They must have all of these, you know, tick boxes. And again, I think it sort of harks back a while ago. We're not quite there yet. But I remember working with some of my clients before and I think it's also because treasurers are under increasing pressure, if you like. But sometimes I would talk to a client and they say, Mike, I want this, this, this, this, you know, they're like a complete tick list. And I said, okay, what's the growth for this candidate? You know, if, if you're saying they need to be able to do 100% of the job from day one, why would they join you? You know, because there's no growth for them on a personal level. They want to learn new skills and things. And sometimes the treasurer said, well, they might want to, Mike, but I haven't got time to teach them. I need someone to hit the ground running and things like that. Actually, what I'm starting to see now with certainly some of my clients and we go through this process with them is saying, look, what is a must have, what's a nice to have and what's the growth zone for a candidate, if you like? I think there's a lot of pressure on Treasury Department. So a lot of the time they'll say must have 60 to 70% of a role that they can do. And then 20% say, you know, nice to have or have exposure to and 10% new. And I think a lot of it's sort of arm wrestling, stroke negotiating with the client saying, right, can we move that down? And how much can you get away with that? The person can do 40% of the job from day one, which great. Over the next two to three years they'll learn the next 60% of which they might have had some exposure to. But it's about trying to. It's that negotiation. It's a sort of cease or balance, if you like. So in again, I think gone are the days you just put an advert and you get many, many applications that are 100% correct and just, yeah, choose them, please. I think that those days are pretty much gone, really.

I can relate to that. And generally, I mean that, that brings us on to skills. I mean, no one obviously wants to do the same job for 10 years just because they're the perfect match. You know, everyone wants a bit of growth in there, to develop themselves personally, professionally and so on, and go international, so to speak. Now, over the last 20, 30 years, I think globalization has gone from being a buzzword to being something that we're living, you know, day by day. And one thing interesting for me to know is, you know, how international has the skills market been for you?

Interesting one. I think the treasury by its very nature is a global skill. So a treasurer working in London, a treasurer working in Frankfurt, a treasurer working in the US is constantly looking outward, if you like, and they're looking around their team and they're looking around the country. And then the specific part of their role is by their very nature, an international job. Now, there might be major markets. If you're based in New York, your major markets might be across the US but you might have 10, 15, 20% of your job focused on the international stuff. Maybe in, say, Europe, particularly mainland Europe, I think there's a lot more international because whichever country you're in, there's another 25 countries to deal with around you. So there's different nuances to all that. Treasury, by its very nature, is an international business and an international skill. You're dealing with different countries day in, day out. And I think actually that then reflects on the skills. And there are various things you can do. You can do studying, you can. You've got the. In the us, you got the AFP and their CTP qualification, you've got the ACT in the uk, you've got various European qualifications coming up now, and I certainly think that helps with the skills market. But again, you know, when I talk to people and when I'm recruiting people, they're not just saying, do they have ctp? Yes or no, do they have this? It's more a sort of a blended skill set. When I'm talking to people, they're saying what they like as a people manager. What's their personality? What are they gonna. Are they gonna be a good fit with us? And, you know, it might be the. Can they manage 10 people? Or it's a standalone office, Are they gonna be able to operate by themselves, or are they gonna be able to go into that office and be the only person in treasury for Europe, but actually deal with 30 different businesses who all got different treasury problems? But the people there aren't treasurers. So it's the other sort of practical skills that perhaps we're thinking about as well. And actually, one of the things that we'll do. Again, we put this together in the speech I gave recently in Chicago, where we put together a summary of the 52 podcasts I've done so far. And we actually distilled what the 52 treasury professionals had said. You know, some very big global treasurers were key to success. And I think actually that reflects on not only those skills. So you've got the hard skills like qualifications and project management and some of those, but then there were some on the outside, outer circles, the softer skills, like propensity to learn, openness, relationship building and all those softer things. But they all form part of this big circle, which my colleague Laura did a great job of actually putting together. But actually, I think that comes into it, sort of this blended skill set, if you like, you know, and I know that's a very long answer, a very short question, so apologies, listeners, but I don't know. Does that answer the question?

Partially. I mean, there's a point that I want to get to in a moment. So it seems like the skills market, the hard skills can be wired pretty much anywhere, and the softer skills, obviously, making more of a difference today on a sort of parallel side, diversity in teams, we've seen that diverse Teams simply are more productive and they work better. But I'm guessing that's also true in Treasury.

Yeah, very much so. I think sometimes it can be, you know, people might say we've got a strong diversity sort of policy, which is sometimes a bit frustrating because then you talk to people and then at a later stage, I've had it with some clients, they said, oh, by the way, you haven't got enough women on the shortlist. And I went, well, women, not enough women applied, you know. Yeah, I'm not just going to do that for the sake of it. Then you may need to make the job more attractive, you know, it's. Or you need to make it right for different people. It's not my job, if you like to say, you know, it's clients jobs to encourage diversity. And I, I will try and satisfy that need, if you like. I think the thing that comes through with a lot of people, you know, is that you need a diverse team if you're going to be future proof for the future, that you've got breadth of expertise, for instance, across different complex areas and making sure you've got one person who's very good at systems and one person who's good at sort of capital markets. One person that, you know, that might not directly answer a question as diversity. You know, are we looking at different things like lgbt, Are we looking at male, female, are we looking at age? What are we doing to do that? And I think in some ways that's something that clients have a need to actually look at and to when they are recruiting. What? You know, I wrote about it in an article a while ago that ladies, you know, I did and I did this article actually. We put a link in the show notes again that, you know, I'm father to four children, two girls, two boys. You know, I'm married to a lady, as we've said, and, you know, so I'm very pro women and, and everything else, but sometimes when I look at some of my clients and how much allowance they make or, you know, are they trying to sort of address that or be flexible working or do various things that are going to help any worker, whether that be male or female, I think there's an implicit thing where, or unconscious maybe, where they don't make allowances. Well, they don't help. You know, I was talking to a colleague the other day that we're talking about one of my clients. Have to be careful with what I say here. But actually it seemed that they made more allowances for a guy who was returning for work after a prolonged period of illness. And then there was another member of the team, a lady who was coming back from having some, you know, kids and things like that. And then the child care was going left and right, being a bit of a pain. But that wasn't acceptable, you know, that was like, well, that's your fault. That's, you know, well, you need to hang on. No, you, you need to help and support that person as much as you do the guy returning from long term sick. You know, it's like you've got to, you've got to try and be more flexible in these times rather than just have one straight line, hard line. That's what fits. And I think that's the key thing.

I agree with you there, Mike. We need to be, I think, much more flexible with regards to men, women, other genders, you know, people in, in sit who obviously can work, but maybe their personal situation is not 100% good right now. And I still remember a time some years ago, as I'm sure you do, where diversity was like a big A three sheet of paper with some bullet points on, stuck somewhere in the office that everyone looked at, but no one really lived the values. But I think that's over mainly.

Definitely.

So diverse teams, skill sets. The world's not such big places before. I mean, think like recruiting across borders today is, is more possible, it's easier today. That should give you more chance of finding the best candidate, right?

Definitely. Definitely it does. It means that across different markets, you know, we talked about, you know, in the past, I've talked to, people have said about LinkedIn, you know, and, oh, you know, that's going to replace you. Well, I'm still here, funnily enough. We're still cracking on. LinkedIn's been around sort of 15, 20 years and I'm still doing at my job in a different way. And I think LinkedIn has helped when we talk about across borders because I can now access candidates and, you know, I'm recruiting for a role in Belgium at the moment, which is sort of. And if anyone's looking for roles in Belgium, give me a call. I still need to fill this European Treasury Manager role. And the funny thing with that role specifically, using a real practical example, I'm looking at candidates in Eastern Europe, I'm looking at candidates in the uk, I'm looking at candidates in the Nordics. You know, as long as they've got great treasury skills, they could go and fulfill that role. Now, I would never have had access to those candidates without the LinkedIn. And you know, basically, in some ways, LinkedIn can be a very good directory of treasury talent, which is fantastic for me as a Treasury recruiter to access. But as with all these tools, it's like a hammer. Used in the right way, it can make a beautiful house, but also using the wrong way, it could destroy a house and make a lot of damage. So it's about how you use those tools, but then actually focusing more on your question about recruiting across borders. There's nothing I find and we find in the office more frustrating that, you know, we put up a role. It's in the US and it says at the bottom of it, please don't apply for this unless you have a pre existing work visa, because we can't recruit you. You know, the Atlantic, despite what Trump says in his big wall with Mexico, the Atlantic is as big a wall to talent moving across. If you're in the UK or Europe or anything around and you want to make a move to the US or brilliant. As long as you've got a green card or a passport to go there, that actually, you know, gives you pre existing work rights and things similarly there. I get a lot of you US guys have come to Europe. I'd love to work in Paris. I'd love to work in Belgium. Yeah. Have you got a work visa? No. Well, you can't get it. You won't get a work visa. It's against the law. It's quite frustrating because you want to help treasury professionals and we can within the market. So we recruit a number of roles right the way across the US from Nike in Oregon, Chanel in New York, got some roles in. In Houston, coming through. We've got other things in Chicago, Baltimore and guys can move around the US and everything else, no problem at all. But when they then say, oh, I want to come to Europe, you can't unless you've got a pre existing web. But it's also good for guys within Europe that you can make a move despite Brexit coming along and everything else. People say, do you think that'll affect treasury professionals? I don't. I actually, when I talk to treasurers, they say, mike, it's a manageable risk and everything else. I think there will be more paperwork, but treasury professionals, by their very nature, highly skilled finance professionals. And I think there will be allowances made that people at that level will be able to make moves across because they've got portable skills. The guys I'm talking to are listening now are going, oh, actually, yeah, I've developed these skills over a number of years. It might be more challenging maybe for some of the treasury analysts and managers and more junior end of the scale to make immediate moves. But if you need a great Assistant Deputy Group treasurer, you're going to look at the UK market, you look across Europe, you'll move across. And I think treasury is international and global in its very nature. So your skills are portable, transferable and always relevant as well.

Right now that's good to know that there is still some freedom of movement, let's say, I mean, especially in the eu, that's one of the cornerstones of the free market. Mike, just looking back now over, back to when you started, the treasury professionals themselves, who just talked about, you know, who would move across the eu, has that appetite, do you think? Has it changed or have treasury professionals always been a bit, let's say, have a bit of wanderlust?

Has it changed? I think there is probably greater openness from treasurers to be more flexible in their working styles. And let me to explain that. So in the past I would have a treasurer and I would say, where do you want to work? And they might be based in the home Counties of London, you know, in and around London. They say, oh, ideally I'd like to work in London or I'd like to work M3, M4 corridor or something like that. Or I'd speak to one of my international clients and they'd be based, for instance, we have a couple of clients at the moment, they're based in Belgium, they spend two days a week in Brussels, they spend three days a week in Luxembourg. Work 10, 10, 15 years ago that didn't happen. You know, people were saying, well, yeah, I'd rather travel an hour and a half, two hours on the train each way, so four hours travel. Now people would actually rather hop on the plane and go over work for a week, you know. So say there's a couple of clients I've got based who are based in the uk, they say it's actually quicker, Mike, rather than me go to London for me to go to Luxembourg, I actually get on the plane, I'm off the plane 45 minutes, I'm in my office, five minutes later I'm there for the week and then I come back. But I think that's how different is. So a lot of people then make a relocation or they'll do long term stays. They might work in say Luxembourg for two to three years, they might work in Belgium for the same, they might work in London, you know, and you get that Reverse thing as well. You know, I think it's more difficult for Europeans coming across the UK and that's not a Brexit thing. That's nothing to do with that. It's more. There's a very mature market demographically, there's lots of treasury guys around London and there are smaller pockets of treasury professionals in Luxembourg and around Brussels and things like that. They will be able to come and make the move. It's just that someone from Belgium wanting to make a move to the uk, they might be up against local competition, locally based, that are just down the road. And then someone's saying, well, I've got eight people or nine people here in this short list of 10 from the UK and one from Belgium. Which logistically is going to be best for me to say who's going to get the most and if they are the best person, they'll get the job. But I think that's one of the things that sometimes is a challenge when you're talking to those guys. And actually in terms of skills wise, there's no difference. You know, when I actually talk to. In terms of. And sometimes actually some of our European candidates are stronger because they have always existed in an international environment. Some of my UK candidates may have had to deal more locally or they're perhaps working in companies where predominantly their business is within the uk, locally and things. Not all the time, but I would say that, you know, a lot of my European candidates sometimes have more in their toolbox, if you like, that they can take with them. So yeah, I'm happy to deal wherever it might be.

So if I hear you rightly, I mean, hiring managers in the U.K. for example, if they have candidates based in the U.K. and they also have some based in Belgium, Netherlands or whatever, side by side, would the hiring manager make a difference or view the candidates differently depending on if they're local or not?

I think they do. I think whether we like it or not, you know, it comes down to a variety of factors. You could also, you know, actually brings an ageist thing as well. Sometimes, you know, candidates that perhaps got a lot more experience and they're, they're throwing the hat in the ring, say they want a good, really good role. They say, oh, I'm being frowned upon and you know, I'm being counted against because of my age, where you could have it, age being a factor, counting against you where you're based might be a factor. You know, I've got a client at the moment who's concerned with one of my guys who would have to travel for an hour and each way. And I'm sure sort of trying to say to them, well, everyone travels. You know, a lot of people travel, you know, for two, three hours, you know, at least a day for the right role. But actually going back to that example, do we find out about it? No, sometimes we don't. Sometimes we do. And when we do, we try and sort of coach our clients and say, look, if you really want the best person, this person is probably best for the job. And actually I have moved some very good international guys and as I say, but I think there is sometimes a conscious or sometimes unconscious bias slash discrimination against those guys. And it's our job to try and present the best candidates to our clients and we then try and coach them. I think there's a coaching element and that's one of the differences. People sort of say, oh, LinkedIn, blah, blah, blah. And yeah, LinkedIn is simply a very plain and simple tool. What we do is, is how we use it. It's like, you know, hopefully we're craftsmen in what we do. There were consultants, we actually client says to me, this is what I want. And then we coach them on what they need and we help them find the right people.

I understand and I see the, you know, why you'd want to do that. Obviously the conscious bias in selection is something that, it's illegal in many countries, but I think we also need to be aware of the unconscious bias and that's easily detectable. So choosing candidates and also candidates choosing companies. Obviously we talked earlier about candidates having a bit more choice and not just sending their CV across and without any reason to work for the company. So both for the hiring company and the candidate, it's a bit of a bet if they are not in the same place and one has to travel internationally. Work relocations, you know, whether it's working a week at a time in Zurich or Brussels while your family is living in the UK or a little bit closer to home, work relocations can sometimes go wrong. I've obviously seen that. What about yourself, Mike? Any, any stories you have on that?

I think actually that just, just to address that point you made there and I think that's. And it directly links into this. We talk about betting if you like and betting on an international move and things like that. I think the first thing you do, and this is all right, this is total self love for both Richard who and he'll explain, they do relocation business and help international guys moving and we also represent international candidates and help them make that move in the job sense. But the key thing to do, as you know, and if you're a decent betting man and a lot of our treasurers are very risk averse and great risk managers, is that you hedge your bets, you know. So how can you hedge your bets about making a successful move, you know, and actually the physical move and everything else? We contact Richard, you know, if you're wanting to hedge your bets by finding that international role thing. Oh, that's good, you call us. And the reason is because we know the clients and we, we act as the, the middleman. And that's why we exist, both you and I, you know. And coming into that, where have I seen relocations gone wrong? I think there were a couple of ones that sort of stick in my mind. One was where one of my candidates and then he became a client and both. He made a move to Geneva in Switzerland a number of years ago now and great job, fantastic role for him. His wife was well then his fiance was joining him. Brilliant. They were gonna want him to start a family. That was great. But she was gonna work when actually she arrived, she was a marketing director. She was fantastic. But she didn't, didn't plan for the fact that there were lots of marketing directors in Geneva or were at the time. All she could get was a role, lovely role as a nursery nurse, you know. So she had to work in a nursery for a number of years until she secured her work permit and got her actual studies up as well, her language skills. And that was quite a hit for them. And they nearly looked at moving back to the uk. They saw it through and then once she was there and had proved herself, then she was able to step back into her marketing career and develop it, which. Fantastic. And that linked into from the nursery and things like that. Another one, one of my clients, he got to, I think it was Belgium and they, they got there and the schooling, you know, they got, he went across, he did six months and then his wife and kids joined them. They got one of their children got into the international school. One didn't. One had to go to the local school. And after six months they were so unhappy, the wife and kids had to go back and another six months later he had to transfer back because they were, you know, in a different country. And that's fine. And he worked it for a period, but it just never settled in. And actually I think that's where certainly someone like yourself, Richard, you can sort of be that middleman and you know, and again, maybe just perhaps explain for the people, if you would, that in listening exactly what you guys do and things like that. I've already covered the work visa sponsorship thing as well. I think, you know, unless you've got a pre existing one, don't even apply for a role. But that's the other thing that I've seen when relocation, I think make sure you've got all those bits of paperwork and those actual practicalities sorted out first. And again that's where you, you know, Richard, perhaps if you could do a bit of an explanation for the people listening what you guys do and things.

Essentially what we do is because we've been there on the ground, you know, in the countries where we operate. So France, UK and Switzerland for now got the actual on the ground experience. And that is always going to be unique and slightly different to what you can read in the various websites. You know, the government guides how to where to apply. I mean there are things you cannot know before you leave. For example uk, how it happens in Switzerland, you know, for example, what you just mentioned about the international schools, I've personally been there and my kids were offered exactly the same thing, one place in the international school and they couldn't guarantee a second place for the sister. So we said, well, well okay, maybe do something else. And then you have to start looking and talking to people and actually going there and organizing it. And it's not something you can do easily based in the uk. Another thing we've seen is family members moving. You know, Geneva is an example you gave. We've seen that happen in Zurich. We've also seen it happen in Johannesburg, in South Africa, admittedly not in the euro, but it's a similar idea where, you know, super skilled workers, they might have to jump through some hoops to obtain the work permit, but once they're there, you know, you think it's all okay. But the fine print, if you read between the lines of the fine print, we realized that often family members can do nothing else except accompany them. Obviously if you're thinking about your future, you know, you probably want to think twice before accepting it. Things go wrong, things can be fixed. But our raison d' etre really is the human aspect. So we get involved with the local authorities. We make sure the latest forms are filled in, we make sure everyone, our clients understand how it works and we post the forms to the right place, we make sure people accept it, that there is that responsibility to make sure things are being delivered and happening. People are working on it and it's not just gone into an Administrative black hole to speak, because there are some places in the world, I have Switzerland in mind, for better, for or worse, you know, if you're one day late in submitting your application, then they will reject it and it'll be very, very badly received that you are late, you know, so you have to be very careful and you can only know that by, you know, having gone through it yourself.

So you've been through it, got the T shirt and yeah, it sounds like you had the challenging times as well and things. And when you did it as well, how did you get into that business sort of thing? So I'm turning the tables a little bit. How did you sort of discover the relocation business?

I've got a quite international background. I've worked in the uk, I've been South Africa to many countries in Europe. And just by talking to people, getting involved in the expat community, international travelers, whoever you're talking with, there's always some story of a relocation that didn't go quite right or questions asked about, actually, how does it really happen here. So over the last, whatever, 15, 20 years, I've picked up enough stories and given enough advice that I thought, well, hang on, there is a need for it. And today the world is much smaller than it used to be and more people are traveling and travel is getting more accessible and cheaper. So we thought, well, let's just offer it more widely, this advisory and actually getting involved. And as a trained and accredited project manager myself, I enjoy starting and actually closing something, you know, having it done and dusted and say, right there, you're settled, good, you know, enjoy. And not having open things for six to nine months or even longer, I want to turn the tables around again to you. To you. The treasury recruitment company. How did you get that started, Mike?

Totally by accident. Yeah. I think if anyone plans a role in recruitment, you're probably mad. In a good way. I started in teaching, I did a teaching degree, started becoming supply teacher. Then one day they said, oh, you should be one of our recruiters. And I was like, you know, that stage, particularly recruitment wasn't my number one choice. And things I said, well, what's recruitment about? I said, well, you talk to people and they pay you. So I can talk, I can talk quite a lot and I quite enjoy that. So I started in teaching recruitment, did that for a number of years. And then the recruiter that I knew, he said, oh, you should move on and do finance recruitment. I was like, not so sure. And then I met when actually I originally joined to Set up the treasury division for Robert Walters many years ago, met the guys there, thought it was fantastic. And actually they said, oh, we need someone to run our treasury division. And I said, what's Treasury? And they said, we don't know. I was like, okay, that's a good start. So at least they won't know either if I make a mess of it. And basically, as I said at the beginning of the show, I met these treasury guys and they were. They were my kind of people. Very outgoing and, you know, really insightful and I think so that really enjoyed dealing with treasurers from day one. And I built the business from zero left the company. Company is one of the, or the top biller for the group in the world. Doing very successfully, went on join a search firm. And I thought. And then the search firm I was with start to say, look, we'd like you to do sales director roles, we'd like you to do this role. I was like, no, no, treasury is my passion. And I knew at that stage that I'd done that for a number of years. So in October 2002, I bought a desk, desk, phone, office at the bottom of a recession. I thought, well, if I can't do it now, I can't do it anytime. Because, you know, people said, why starting then? I said, well, everyone will talk to you. And I thought, I thought the recession at the time would probably last another year or so, probably took another three to four years. So we built reputation and grew the company. We grew. We've been going now, as I say, since October 2002. Yeah, just grown and grown and grown. We did a lot of the time, uk, Europe, and I got a lot more international travel and then went actually at the Far east and Asia as it grew to Singapore quite a lot in Australia. That was great. Those markets changed quite a lot. So we sort of slowly came away from there and I know that we've spoken before about how I then enter the US and I tried to actually go into the US in originally 2008. Yeah. Just as subprime crisis came across the horizon.

Timing was good.

Oh, it couldn't have. Literally, I couldn't have burnt money better. It was horrendous. And I just, you know, I wanted to learn about the U.S. market and it was very difficult. And so I did. We did it for about a year and a half, two years, and we ran away, we ran away from that market. All this is crazy. And then back in 2000, I think it was 2011 20, the UK government was running a Scheme where you could go and study at Northwestern, the university in Chicago. And it was helping entrepreneurs about how they could enter the US market. Now, I had actually already started the ball rolling around that time to get an office out there and to look at how we grew. So already had an accountant, legal staff and everything else. That was great. But actually this was about how America was different and the different nuances and everything else. It was a fantastic program. Did it with some other really great entrepreneurs, some of whom still contact with as they slowly grow in their U.S. businesses. And, you know, the U.S. takes a long time and a lot of investment. I think the US is naturally averse to, hey, here's some Yank coming over and look at him. And hey, look at him. He can. Thinks he can do this country. You know, we've been going hard at the US for seven years and I can now say we are starting to be successful. And it's taken seven years of hard bloody graft to, to not break America because we're not even there yet, but actually start to work. We've got a guy, Craig Martin, who works for me in the us, doing a fantastic job, opening a lot of doors, us meeting people. We're now recruiting for clients such as Nike. We've recruited for Duracell, Under Armour. We're doing another big assignment with Chanel in New York. We're recruiting for some amazing clients, which I'm loving. I never thought. Well, I never. I hoped I would recruit for these guys. But now we're finally doing it and we're recruiting very senior roles, recruiting global treasury directors. We've got another couple coming up, so if you are listening to this and thinking about a move, please call me. But joking aside, the US is amazing. You know, it's probably 10 times the size of a lot of our other markets, so it's 10 times as much work. There are more hours spent on the phone late at night and everything else, and a lot more air miles and. But it, it's, it's incredible. I just love talking to treasury guys and there's so many of you out there. And we're starting, as I say, to sort of go to the west coast as well. But we, I do a lot of stuff and activity. We've got another couple of roles actually in Chicago, where I spoke for seven years in a row at the Chicago Treasurers Conference. I'm very grateful for the, the welcome I've received there. And it's a great treasury community with the guys at tmac, which is their association over there, and we carry on doing stuff in, in the UK and Europe, which are our home markets and we're not abandoning those. I've got our team here in the UK and they're, they, they're servicing our clients and doing stuff. But it's just amazing, you know, because we talked throughout the show about how international treasury is and I can talk to a treasurer on the west coast of the us, talk to a treasurer in London, talked to a treasurer in Luxembourg, Belgium, talked to a treasurer in Australia, and they all have the same problems and they all have the same headaches and they're all crying the same cry down the phone. But we're there to help. So basically we are the paracetamol to our clients problems when they are coming to us and they go, mike, I've got this headache. Yeah, we're the paracetamol. It's cliched, but the fact is we're there and that's at the end of the day. I had it with one of my other clients the other week. I interviewed someone who spoke at me for 40 minutes. Minutes. I did one question, they spoke at me for another 20 minutes, said, actually, Mike, I've got to go. I was like, oh, my goodness. And they walked off and I was so. I was quite upset, really. And this treasurer came in, in the nicest way, said, well, that, that's why I pay you, Mike. I was that right? He said, no, no. So you can, you can go through that pain and also you don't have to go through that paying for three to five, maybe 10 other treasurers where you're putting forward that person who's got great CV and everything else, but you've seen they're not right for certain environments or what they might be right for. You do the matching thing. And also he said, I pay you for your time so you can be my parasitism, expensive paracetamol. That's fine, I don't mind that.

Yeah, it's never easy having to go through minutes and hours of, I guess, subjects that you're not too enthralled about. You know, it is what you do, Mike, and I think it's very respectable profession, you know, to have to sit through and sift through all those different candidates and try to match and understand and advise. So that's against the human aspect and that's never going to be easy.

At the end of the day, we're also there to help. That's one of the things that I said earlier. You know, there's some people we sometimes can't help when they don't have the right visa or sponsorship. I'm always happy to try and give advice. I get a number of candidates approach me from financial services and banking and we don't do that predominantly with our work. We're 95% corporate treasury. I do do banking roles. I've recently recruited for Vanquish Bank a number of roles and we've done some financial services stuff with other, other groups in the UK and I've done it internationally as well. But predominantly our work is around corporate Treasury. When those FS guys come to us, I actually say, look, there's another recruiter who, you know, special in this area. We've had a guy the other day in custody and then another one with hedge stuff and hedge accounting, but within more of a hedge fund type situation. So he's got related to treasury but he's not 100. So actually this guy's good. We'll try and give a best advice. I think that's the fact we stay respectful to those people because we've all been there, you know, and just, you know, just being nice, there's no need to be rude or, you know, just, just try and help people and you know, again, I was on a really nice podcast with a couple of people recently, one John Engerman from National General Assurance in the US and he very much believes in the thing pay it forward and that's why he wrote his book and things he just said if, you know, do good things and other good things will come back. And that's exactly. Yeah, that's it. And I don't believe in karma using it in a premeditated way. What I mean is just if you try and help people, they'll try and help you back because that's, that's the natural good thing to do. So just be, be nice to others. Sounds very altruistic but at the end of the day it's true. If you just try and respect people and do the best, then it comes back to you really.

And usually it's a team effort to get something done. It's not just one person doing it all themselves.

Oh no, no, I do it all by myself. Forget about my team. They, they just sit there, drink teas and coffees and just relax whilst I torn around the plan planet.

Can I come and join you guys?

Oh please do. There's loads of tea and coffee and I'm making that as a, a jokey point because I literally, I've been doing all this travel recently and I don't Think I've, you know, and I'm. We've just been out today, I took the team for breakfast, someone's birthday and things like that, and I don't get enough time to say to them what superstars they are because I literally couldn't have done any of this stuff if I was coming back to mountains of paperwork, mountains of emails and everything else. And they are so great. And it enables their facilitators to me to do all this stuff, to do the podcast, to do with everything else, to grow the company internationally. When I do thank them, you know, we. We try and reward them, we try and be nice and stuff like that, but, you know, the actual. Just on a personal level, I just love them. They're just fantastic and stuff. Sounds, but, but that's great. You recruit some great team guys and we, you know, we have a really great laugh, you know, enjoy going to work every day with them. And they. Poor people have to put up with me. Poor sods. That can come of everything.

So don't be harder than yourself, Mike.

No, they don't need to stab me in the back. They can just put it in the front, but it's fine. Joking aside, just great people and we're growing a really amazing business.

No, I mean, growth is in these times sometimes quite hard to come by. And what you mentioned earlier about starting off in the US back in 2008 and giving it a second try, and now it looks like you're going strong, working on both sides of the pond. I can only imagine that what it would be like. But what is it actually like for you being in the us, in the uk, Offices in both countries?

Yes. Yeah, we got an office actually in the us, domiciled in Florida, but that's because it's a good place to have it nice and accessible. I've got Craig, who is based actually in Baltimore, but actually travels the us. He used to work for the afp, their association of treasurers over there. And previously he ran the Treasury Leadership Council. So he has got the most insane relationships. You know, he knows the global treasure, Nike, global treasurer of Microsoft, knows all the top table guys and gets on really well with them. And that's where we can help those clients when they have needs. He's able to sort of help them. And so he's the man in the us, so it takes a lot of that. That being said, yeah, if you want to do a US business, be prepared to do some late nights, not do it all the time. But I think if you want to help People then you've got to be prepared to do that. And I think it will as we grow the business there. It'd be great. What is weird for me, it's not just both sides of what's different over there. And I learned this many years ago when I did the course in Chicago and I talked to a lot of people that in UK and Europe, recruitment, if you like, is quite a mature industry. So you have, you know, putting adverts at the time in, in the paper or in, you know, the media and things like that back in the day. And then you had the mid level, so search and selection, so someone would come to you with an assignment, you'd have, you know, your database and you'd know some good people put the foot. And then you have search senior end and everything else. In the US recruitment has developed and staffing has developed differently because you have what they call staffing agencies. So you have staffing agents who supply blue collar workers, so very much more manual, so kitchen staff and for labor intensive roles. And then you have search facilities so you search for a treasurer and search for the senior guys. But the in between market hasn't really ever been been serviced as much as it is now. You know, if you want to recruit a Treasury analyst or treasury manager or assistant treasurer, a lot of the time people will then, you know, go. Their default is to go onto LinkedIn. And actually LinkedIn is a very good tool but when, you know, you look at it and there's, you know, it says, hey, we have 197,000 vacancies on it. Well, how are you going to be heard on there? So you know, the us, you know, recruitment for us has been incredible but it's been in this seven year journey thus far. First few years were awareness and people start, oh, actually those treasury recruitment guys. And now it's like they sort of. We've gone through some of the education process and I've been to all these conferences and people getting to know us and help them on LinkedIn and all that. But now we get into the action orientated stage where clients are calling us, say, right, so you recruit in the U.S. yes. And how many people do you know here? Well, we've got a database of over 10,000 and they're like, whoa, hang on, so you do know everyone. And we try to. And that's where it's now gaining some traction. It's not just, just a, you know, a sales pitch for us, it's more, you know, the, the fact that I love about doing the Us as well, is that we are. We partner up with us corporates, but then they say, oh, actually we need someone in Luxembourg, you know, and we. And I've done this. So we've become very close, closely aligned with Blackstone. And so I've helped them Blackstone in, you know, we've looked at stuff in the US over in New York, but I've recruited their European treasurer, their Blackstone real estate in Luxembourg, and they said, actually, Mike's our preferred partner or the treasury recruitment company. I are. And we use Mike because he knows the market and he can help us and we know the local markets. And that's what, for me, going back to the question itself, you know, what, what's it like being both sides? It's. It's hugely exciting, it's sometimes hugely tiring. But I think most things that are going to be worthwhile are. And I think as we grow rapidly grow that business in the us, I just think it's fun, it's a great laugh and I love talking to my, you know, clients, whether they be Australian, European, uk, us, as long as it's Treasury. Pick up the phone.

Pick up the phone. Indeed. That's usually the quickest and most direct.

Yeah, I'll drop me an email.

Yeah, exactly. It's not always difficult. That gives me a very good idea of what you do, Mike.

So, Richard, thank you for today, that's been amazing. Sorry me to jump in there. Just thought what I would say is, for those of you that are listening, and Richard and I have talked about this, that we're just approaching the 10,000 download mark, which is crazy because I thought we'd be lucky to get to maybe 1000 downloads in year one one. We've done nine months, we're at 10,000. So you guys are liking the podcast. So thank you very much, listeners. But those of you that are listening, if you're interested in international moves, Richard will be putting this up on his blog. He will convert this into a blog as he described there, and you can drop him an email. We'll put the email in the show notes. You can sign up for. If you're thinking about international relocation or you want help, he's the guy to turn to. He's going to be helping you. He knows all these things international. He's the man for that. Again, you'll see in ours, you know, feel free. Free to keep listening to this and other podcasts as well, and anything else you want to know about the treasury recruitment company, drop us an email. We have a newsletter as well do it on there. So it keeps you up to date with all the latest news and views in the treasury recruitment market and help you make your next international move. And when you need the advice, we pass it, Richard. He makes it seamless. Job done. What a great podcast. Amazing day. Thank you very much for not making me sound too crazy, but thank you very much, Richard.

You're welcome.