How to Add Value in a Treasury Team with Jan Beukes

Welcome to this week's Treasury Career Corner podcast where I interview treasury professionals about their treasury careers. Each and every week I talk to them about how they build their careers, where they are now, where they see both themselves and the treasury profession going to next. Let's get on with the show. In this week's show, I'm delighted be joined by Jan Berkus, the group treasurer at MultiChoice Group. MultiChoice is Africa's leading entertainment company. They create and secure the rights to amazing content from all over the world and it goes direct to tv, home digital TV and everything else, and online video services. Basically. I'm going to get Jan to explain that right the way through because really interesting group and he's got really fascinating career. And as we were just talking about, bit of an unconventional path within Treasury. So let's get straight into it. Jan, tell us about your career today and how you first well discovered finance and then Treasury. So over to you, sir, as always.

Yes. Hi Mike, and thanks for having me.

Pleasure.

I definitely had a bit of an unconventional route getting into treasury. You know, finished off my articles. I am a qualified chartered accountant by trade as well. At the end of my articles career, I did not necessarily want it to stay within audit, but the opportunity came across my path to join a company called AFGRI within the heading up the kind of smaller internal audit team at this stage. And, you know, so I jumped at the opportunity. And in hindsight, I would say the two years that I spent with internal audit was actually a blessing in disguise. You know, I managed to get to know the entire group. I got to know pretty much everybody within the organization. So my initial doubts about the opportunity quickly got vanquished. If I can put it like that. You got the complete spectrum of the entire group and you got to meet people and people got to meet you. And one thing that I will say on the outset of this chat is I've always had a mindset in terms of making sure I get involved in things that's not necessarily part of just your normal day job. So while within internal audit, my boss at that stage also looked after the corporate finance M and A side of the business and you know, as soon as he was busy with something else, you know, I always reached out and tried to, you know, can I assist with anything, you know, can he basically give me feedback in terms of, you know, what they are doing and what they're busy with and, you know, that's how I got exposure at the end of the day to the M and A Side So after two years of internal audit got an opportunity to join on the corporate finance side, working closely with him and stayed with within that function for the next four years. Ended up running it for two years.

Just so that people understand AFCRI itself, just as a group, again people might not understand that. So can you just outline who they are? Because again that really affects some interesting moves. So I think Afgri to multi choice, not the usual moves but go back to you sir.

So AFCRI is an agricultural company focusing within agri and foods business. So your storage of grain in silos all the way to you know, animal feeds, the mechanization side, Afgri was an agent for John Deere, you know, selling, selling all those high tech instruments to farmers. There was a farmer financing side to the business. So you know, heavily focused within the agri space, the food space, which was a fantastic experience to go through in terms of everything that impacts the business. So watching closely, weather patterns, being cognizant of when there's going to be a good harvest and a bad harvest and how international grain prices and soy prices moves and impacts the business. So there are so many interlinking aspects of that business to kind of get used to and to learn over time.

Yeah, different more rounded sort of finance role rather than just do the accounts and everything else. We talked about this on the pre show when we did a pre podcast and discussed that, you know some people just go in, do your audit, you know, maybe get qualify and then here are the books, do this. But you were actually involved in the operation and that's how then your other roles evolve, wasn't it?

So yeah, after finishing on the internal audit side, then getting involved on the corporate finance M and A side of things which was obviously very specialized, it was a kind of a brand new field to engage in and upskill yourself. There's a very big difference in terms of what you learn on valuations while you're studying versus actually doing it as part of the M and A transaction, having those discussion between parties. So that was a fantastic experience to go through. And as part of the of four years with an M and A, that's where the first exposure and engagement with banks came in. So as part of these transactions there were normally some sort of facility involved. I will never forget the, you know, the first meeting where I sat and the treasurer at that stage we were meeting with one of the banks and the banks asked him can you please send us a copy of your covenant register? And I just thought to myself, you know, what, what Are they talking about what this is? And that's kind of where the, where the interest got got sparked as part of that entire M and A cycle. It was important for me to get a better understanding of, you know, how banks look at these, you know, what's, what's the key metrics within the business when they look at funding and all of those things. And then closer to my four year, to the end of my four year stint with within the M and A side of the business, we went through a patch where there wasn't a dedicated treasurer at AFKRI at that stage. There was an operations team that managed the day to day functionality and my boss at that stage was the CEO of the group. We were looking at something and I basically reached out to him and said, I'm more than happy to assist you any of the treasury things if you've got capacity issues. So, and I've had a little bit of experience as part of the kind of the M and A team in terms of what goes into these term sheets and all of that. I think it was probably a week later he called me and said, listen, would I be willing to look after the group treasury function for him? Just by nature I jumped at the opportunity. My mind, and we'll probably kind of get that to let, but my mind is of such I enjoy having a job where every day is different. So kind of getting into treasury offered that opportunity. Now you go from an M and A type business where obviously a lot of what you're doing is confidential. Yes. You engage with certain people and then you go into a Treasury function where you've got a much wider, bigger team to manage. All of a sudden you engage across the business again became very quickly a function of me upskilling myself because there wasn't anybody to formally hand over or guide me. Get to know the operations team a lot better very quickly and start focusing on the key touch points from a Treasury point for the business units as well.

What was treasury like there? You know, what was the complexity of Treasury? Because I know that then your role grew and grew as you guys sort of evolved. You know, how did that then come about? Because I think that was interesting how it developed, if that's the right way.

You sit with so many different business units that brings a lot of different funding requirements that you need to look at. So there was a big portion of, especially I would say that, you know, the kind of first year of, of that five year period was just understanding, you know, those funding requirements and the various cycles, agriculture between the mechanization and the foods businesses. There's different cycles and at different periods in the year, there's various levels of funding requirements and how do you get visibility of all of that and bring it all together. It was definitely a tough learning environment to quickly get your head around that, ask and what's required and with that. The other fun part of treasury is obviously dealing with people and dealing with personalities. You know, as a fairly young person in a senior role, you have to build that emotional intelligence in dealing with the difficult customers. So it's something that's over the past eight years of my treasury career. That ability, having that ability to not manage, just manage your own team, but also you know, how to engage with different customers in your business unit and how you get communication across to them and, you know, get what's their need and, you know, how you can fill that gap and get alignment. That's definitely a skill that's, you know, possibly not always talked about, but it's, it's so crucial and core to the, to the overall role of, you know, being a group treasurer. Yeah.

And then your role sort of grew and grew and you know, you were then advanced your career. That's probably the best way. You sort of stepped up and stepped up, you know, maybe talk about that if you would, to us because, you know, you went from this sort of financing role to the real leadership treasure role. What was that like? Was your head spinning a bit or what? You know, what was that like?

The key thing during that whole transition stage was just to, you know, ask as many questions as I could, make sure that I've got adequate knowledge on topics. If somebody did have any questions, you know, that I've got the ability to answer. The last thing you want to do is sit in a senior management meeting and get a question and you sit there and you don't really have anything that you can say or add. So very quickly focused in kind of upskilling myself on that basis. Making sure that you fully understand the industry at that stage, specific needs and asks becomes on the job thing, where you then just grow your overall knowledge base and what you know. Obviously engagement with banks is critical and it will always remain a critical aspect, but making sure that not just your relationship manager, but the credit team, especially at banks, understand what your business is about, what's your needs, how should they view the business to give them that comfort? And that just makes for easier discussions when you do meet with them. So I went through a five year journey from basically getting a job where I had Limited experience to the end of year five where, you know, I've managed to get a much better understanding of what's, you know, happening and what's required, where the focus should be. But I also reached a stage in my career where I felt I need to move on. Now I've reached a bit of a ceiling in terms of, you know, what I can contribute and learn at AFCRI at that stage. And I will forever be grateful in terms for my 11 years at the company and the opportunities that was, was given to me. That's when I made the decision to, you know, to have a look at something else.

Came about though, a little bit curiously, didn't it, with you changed things a little bit on your profile or various other bits. Because I thought that was an interesting sort of mini nugget, you know, for people listening today, you know, because we talk about LinkedIn is a professional network, it's not just about getting jobs. But although this flies in the face a little bit, explain that a little bit if you would.

At that stage I was using LinkedIn, I think, like anybody else, but, you know, nothing too significant. I had a profile a little bit about myself, but when I made the decision to look for other opportunities, I didn't limit it just to South Africa, you know, effectively, you know, had a view for broader international opportunities possibly. So I reached out to a lady in the US on, you know, how things work there, what's the kind of documentation, how do people present all of that? And that got us to the topic of executive resumes. So, you know, within South Africa we've got the normal CVs and all of that. And she very quickly, you know, when I sent through my documents and everything that I updated, she says, you know, we don't use that. Yeah, it's a two pager executive resume. And the focus is purely on what value did you add to the company over your career? Be specific, how did it impact the financial results of a company? And that's where the focus is. Nobody is interested in terms of, you know, what were all the list of activities and responsibilities that you had. They want to know what value that you add to a company. So I went through a complete reflection process to update that, construct that document which forces you to sit back and really think about, you know, what you did over your career. Then that formed the basis of a complete rewrite and updating of my LinkedIn profile that effectively resulted in two things. So for one, it forever changed the way that I think about my job, that I've got Making sure that you maintain that value, add mindset in everything that you do. You're not just going through the mechanics every day and just getting things done which was super important for me. And I wish actually these two page exec resumes become a worldwide standard because it's the quickest way to get a sense of who you are dealing with what achievements this person has or her had within their career. The day that I made my new profile live, the next day a recruiter in Cape Town contacted me for the job that was available at MultiChoice. At that stage, Multichoice was still part of Naspas. A lot of people will also know them from process. It was listed a few years back in the Netherlands. But Multichoice on its own was a massive opportunity and it's a big business the company. We've got presence across 50 markets in Africa. We've got a technology company, Arteta, which is headquartered in in Amsterdam with footprint in various continents. So they focus on more connected security, Internet of things scope. So it's not directly linked to the pay TV online data consumption side of the business. So just the sure scope in opportunity and size of the company obviously made it a very exciting opportunity to pursue. Yeah, went through the first interview, I thought it went okay being interviewed. I think there was, you know, four or five people during the group treasurer of NASPA was, was involved. Then got a call back for a second interview which was with, with the CFO at that stage as well as one of the HR business partners. I think it was a few days after that I got, got a call and you know, they would like to offer the position to me and for me it was a no brainer. So as much it was sad to say goodbye to AFCRI and everything that you know and got comfortable with over a given period. I reminded myself that nothing great comes from staying in your comfort zone. So accepted the position, joined in March 2018. So it's been just over three years now and it's been a fantastic journey.

Just talk through that journey again. For people listening today, they might be in a similar situation. They're about to start a new role or recently started it. What was the state of treasury there? I mean this is a loaded question because we've already had this call and I know this, so I'm totally leading my, my interviewee. So Paul and Yaz. Well we've already talked about this Mike, but I think it was really again a nice thing to pick out. I think that you know, the way you grew it and that your ethos around people as well. But back to you as always. I'll shut up and let you, you talk. Carry on, sir.

It was already established treasury function within multichoice. A lot have been put in place when I joined. I would say the biggest thing for me was to give myself time to fully understand the business. It's obviously was way more significant in scope than what I had exposure to previously, what I had to deal with. So allowing myself enough time to get to know the business, the various people that are involved and everything that is treasury related that we had to look and manage. And as part of that was kind of, once you kind of get your mind wrapped around that, you know, then first you're really in a position to sit back and say, okay, well you know, where are some of the gaps or where are some of the opportunities? You know, where can we optimize things a bit better and you know, effectively. We started with a two and a half year, call it tech optimization drive. During that stage, multichoice unbundled from, from naspas. So we had to deal with, with that, which was a significant project on its own, for which we managed to win the Adam Smith treasury reward as well, which we are very, very proud of. My sole focus was to one, we need to make sure that there's visibility. Anybody in, for anybody in treasury will tell you that forecasting cache visibility, having quick accurate access to data is golden. To limit the amount of manual exercises. So you know, we made use of a lot of Excel and Excel is great for many things, but it can only take you to a certain point. So, you know, really focused on, you know, where we could optimize. And it didn't become an exercise just of telling our executives, you know, we would like X, Y and Z. It was more a function. Guys who would really like to do X because this is the value that it will add.

What I want to do is. And again we talked about this before and we look at the difference, you know, you've come from industrial services and industrial company to digital, you know, to entertainment company and things. You had similar checklists. We talked about, you just talked, you touched on it there. The visibility of cash. You know, this is your sort of again with some of the listeners when they're going into new roles or thinking, right, I need to do a review, you know, what the top two or three or five things, visibility, cash is obviously key. What did you find? Perhaps the difference in industry was, you know, there must be different drivers, supply chain and everything else. What was the contrast making the move and then what were the commonalities if you like. So maybe what were the real differences that you, you noticed? And then actually. Oh, actually this is exactly the same.

I would say in terms of comparing AFCRI to multichoice, except for completely different industry going from aggregate foods to media, paid tv. That spectrum, obviously that was a significant change on its own. I am a bit of a techie at heart in terms of doing these type of things. So the, you know, the multi choice fit became very natural for me dealing with such a big business. The scope of FX exposures and you know, what we had to manage was way more significant than what I had to do previously. Coupled with that, a lot more people engagement. So I would say in terms of comparing the two entities, everything went around scope, everything was just so much bigger. It's so much more than that. You had to get to learn and had to get comfortable with. So that formed the basis of getting comfortable with that and then you start off the next step. So in terms of commonalities, forecasting, accurate forecasting and you'll find that in any business, I don't think that will ever disappear.

Yeah, that's the commonality it will ever.

Be, you know, it will remain critical. The extent of, you know, FX exposures that we have to manage, that was definitely something, something new that I had to get accustomed with and get comfortable with then obviously with within such a big organization, getting to grips with your governance structures, your relationships with central bank, being in so many markets. So all of a sudden you deal with multiple exchange controls. It's not just the South African Reserve bank anymore. So just kind of coming back to that initial statement, just the scope of everything changed. Yes, there was similarities and commonalities from a Treasury concept perspective. But your knowledge in terms of what you need to know and be on top of just multiplied by factors.

We spoke before about your team and the people and the way that you, you coach and manage and things like that. Can you give us a sort of a flavor for that as well?

We run a centralized treasury, including myself, with a team of seven, seven people. I think something that's since day one that I recognized as a challenge within treasury teams. You know, being so specialized and sometimes small is, you know, how can you give your members of your team, how can you give them exposure to the entire treasury value chain, if you want to put it like that. Over time now when I joined we had a very much your traditional front, middle, back office structure within treasury. It was difficult to give everybody exposure to different areas so effectively redesigned the treasury structure. So obviously I'm the head of treasury and right now we've got a team that focuses just on cash and liquidity management and we've got a separate team that only focus on financial risk management. So FX and everything related to that. So I've got two direct senior treasury analysts that reports to me and they both have two individuals supporting them. And over and above that I implemented a rotational structure. So the senior guys effectively rotate every year while they support team members rotates every two years. So it just became a natural kind of conclusion for me. You know, this is a fantastic way to over time give these guys exposure to, you know, everything that's, you know, that it is towards multi choice treasury and you know, as the maturity grows and people's knowledge and exposure on these specific items, you know, grow, I can then incorporate the senior guys into more of the projects that, that I get to deal with and give them exposure on that end. Because at the end of the day, I mean you want, you want your people to grow, you want to keep their interactions and their experience at work of a nature where they feel that they're growing, you know, so, you know, they don't get bored, which is very important because as soon as people get bored, I mean they are going to leave. I think it's inherent to human nature and make sure that we now in a position to give these guys very focused and specific training. So whatever we put them on, make sure that's not just value to their lives but then also has the future value for the business. So really making sure that you engage with your team, make sure that you as a manager, you know exactly what their needs are, what do they require to function and do their jobs and really listen to it and do something about it. Because I often tell my guys, you know, there's no superstars within multichoice Treasury. The treasury works because the entire team works. Everybody has a platform and an opportunity to give their voice and their opinion. So candor is a very big thing for me. People must be able be given that opportunity to give their view and opinion without fear. As soon as you enter an arena where people are too afraid to ask something or to speak, there's just no benefit around it. So, you know, even if they're just comfortable to do it within a Treasury space, at least, you know, want to give them that opportunity. Get used to the type of conversations, if we need to have a hard conversation on a topic, then we've got it. But the team knows that it never Gets personal and that's where you unlock value. From my perspective, it's also just remain humble. You're never going to know everything that there is to know about treasury. So make sure that you, you learn from your peers, you can learn from your, your own staff, make sure that you know, you know what's kind of new requirements, you know how the other industry is evolving and just continue learning and make yourself open to gain, gain knowledge.

We spoke about this before and I made some further notes. I was just looking through them and I think there's some terrible byproducts as a recruiter. I would say that they're from this and we did discuss it a bit before, but sort of came back to me and we were just looking back through here and some of the bits I noted afterwards and we perhaps didn't talk on our pre podcast call, but a byproduct of what Jan's doing with his rotation program and everything else is a lack of recruitment needs as a recruiter. I've got kids that need shoes. All right, so, you know, we need to keep that going. And, but joking aside, because you were incentivizing and leading those guys, you know, through the path, you're getting greater in depth knowledge again. There's, you know, people are enjoying their jobs more, but they're actually, you're retaining that, that knowledge for the group. And we'll, we'll talk about this in a minute as we move the future of Treasury. But you've had all those. Are there any other benefits you've seen or what other things do you think when you look at your team now that where do they go from here or how does it keep on evolving?

I think, you know, from implementing that structure to another thing that I'm very passionate about is not to micromanage. I don't like to be micromanaged and I don't like to micromanage. So I think as soon as you allow your staff the freedom to do what they need to do and also give them that sense that you trust them and you know they're going to deliver. Very importantly, make sure exactly that they know what is expected and when it's expected. I mean, there's so much benefits in terms of, you know, just seeing people grow, getting that confidence. You end up with a team where people are not constantly coming back and saying, is this okay? You know, I've done this. Yes, you can still provide guidance when required, but the level of kind of maturity and growth potential that you give people and not micromanaging Them, I mean, it's just so vast. Yes, I would like to retain my team and I'll do anything that I can to make sure that they get opportunities. But my team also knows that if there's ever anything that comes across their path that looks quite interesting for them to pursue, or if they feel that that's a direction they want to go into, they've got my full blessing. I will only back them, whatever that might be. So it's that sense of, yes, we're a bunch of guys working together in a corporate structure, but you get a lot more kind of personal and close over time. I mean, there's only benefits.

And then we've talked bringing us more sort of to the present day, if you like. We're been before COVID during COVID and heading out of IT and things like that and, well, we're still different states and things. You're based in South Africa, so you guys are, you know, coming through it as well and stuff, but without the pandemic anyway. You've always had these local challenges and things like that. How have you, you know, what's your ethos, you know, around coping with all of this stuff, you know, how's that affected you sort of thing. What's the, you know, the general, general thoughts from you, really?

I would say we are in the fortunate position of, you know, working in Africa. The one thing that Africa will do, especially from a Treasury perspective, is keep you humble. There's always, you know, something happening. There's always a challenge that you need to get a solution to. Kind of looking at that, a big focus on my end, it's always been, you know, just make sure that you're prepared. Make sure that you know exactly, not just what's, what's happening within your markets, exactly what's available to you. Just as an example, in terms of liquidity, investment products, you know, what type of FX instruments are available in all of these markets. Make sure that you're in a position where, if you need to make a decision, that you already have all the tools and knowledge that you need to execute quite quickly on that. So having that preparation, constant, finger on the pulse mindset, I think, you know, prepared us quite well for Covid. So from a Treasury perspective, I think we were quite comfortable in what we needed to do. Yes, there were certain areas where you may have intensified just existing exercises on our end. You weren't kind of caught off guard and you didn't know how to deal with this. I think, as with many other corporates, the kind of the only challenge was just the initial work from home scenario and set up, making sure that, you know, everybody can function, everybody's comfortable. You know, having gone through art lockdown, we, you know, almost can't leave your house. You know, making sure that from a kind of emotional standpoint, you know, that everybody is doing well and coping. So, you know, I think we've, we've gone through this pandemic quite well. It's, we've been working from home now for a year already. You know, we maintained the levels and the standards that we set out. We still executed on all our projects. And then that just comes back to preparation, you know, effective communication, making sure that everybody knows exactly, know you know, what they, what they need to do. And then you end up with something that you can, you can manage and then you just prioritize, you know, whatever is most urgent, prioritize, focus on that, make sure that you deliver it and then you go on to the next thing so you can very quickly become over overwhelmed. You're just going to pile everything on. So just make sure you, every now and then just break it down into smaller, smaller components and just continue to deliver and then you should be fine.

Before we reach the end of today's and again, we'll put your LinkedIn details and get your top three tips shortly. But as we come out of this, where do you see things or you know, what are your. Again, we spoke about this before the show but you know, what are you, you thinking is next? What are your plans for the future and how do you see things? You talked about their technology or what are you. Again, we sometimes talk about CFOs saying, Can you deal with this? Can you deal with this? Obviously been a weird world and we had business coping, not business as usual. Then bit more business as usual. Now we're looking at the future and things. What's rising to the top of your mind, if you like. As a treasurer, that's the right way to ask it.

I think the accuracy of data, getting a better forecast and quicker forecasting. So linking that with things like machine learning, AI obviously topics that people are well accustomed to. But for me, treasury is specific. I think as a treasurer you should definitely have a sound knowledge around things like machine learning. I don't think you necessarily have to be an expert in the field. There's people that dedicate their careers to that. But you should at least be able to have an intelligent conversation with somebody that does specialize within it. Obviously from a Treasury perspective, we know our data, we know what's available, where's the difficult portions around it, and having that insight and also then having this basic understanding on how machine learning works and how these models are built and what they rely on, what data structures, et cetera, I think there's a lot of value in it. It is something that I'm currently focusing on personally as well and just upskilling myself within that field. But, you know, if I, if I stand back, just the access to technology, it's just becoming, you know, just easier and easier and easier over time. So, you know, making sure that you incorporate that within your function, you know, is definitely a must have. On the back of that, I will always be cognizant of a very basic rule, garbage in, garbage out. So make sure that you still have, you know, those principles in place within treasury with within business and that alignment to give you the best possible data to work with and then you can harness the benefits of all these technological advancements. So, yeah, I think definitely it's just going to increase in importance over time.

As we approach the end of today's show. Again, we had a conversation before and it was brilliant. I know that we keep our podcast to half an hour, 40 minutes, but we could literally keep talking about us and I really enjoy it and our conversation. But as we approach the end of today's show, we'll put your LinkedIn profile in the show notes. But as you reflect back over the time, over the years, if you like, that you've been within treasury and then looking at the future, what sort of tips would you give to people or what are your overall thoughts, as it were?

I would say, Mike, probably the most important for me is having a value and a service mindset as a Treasury function, as a predominantly a cost function in a lot of organizations. Make sure that whatever you do, you add value and understand where you can add value. If you end up with a Treasury function that effectively pays for itself every year, that's golden. So make sure that people within the business also fully understand where you can assist and what you can do for them, making their lives easier. That's where you get by. It's not the silo approach of you just running operations every day. You need to have that ability to get that complete view. I mean, that links into the engagement with business. You engage, you communicate. Everybody has clarity on what treasury is focusing on, where we can deliver value at, what's their requirements, Making sure that the banks provide proper service to the group so that you get the maximum efficiency out of them and then probably the Last point touched on this in the beginning. It's been an element throughout my career is just never stop being curious, never stop learning. Continue to ask questions. Whenever I'm in a meeting and somebody tells me, you know, sorry for asking this stupid question, the first thing I said is there's no such thing. You know, the only stupid thing you can do is not ask that question, you know. So continue to ask and to understand. Venture out of your comfort zone. Venture outside of what you do on a day to day basis. That's how you get exposure and you're going to land up with working on something that you really enjoy. You can enjoy your job on a day to day basis. That's the best position you can end up with.

Amazing. And just give and prove your value to your group and at the same time always embrace that curiosity. And I think I've heard that a number of times, but I really love your summary of that. That was amazing. Jan, thank you for your time today. So I know that we could keep talking and there were so many bits in there. I wanted a deep dive in, you know, like LinkedIn and various bits, but I had to avoid it because I don't want to take up too much of your data. I think again we'll put Jan's details in the show notes so you can connect with him. He's a great tab in your network. Fantastic to have you on the show today. And thank you very much, sir.

No, thank you very much for opportunity, Mike. It's always, always great to, to share what, what you've learned, you know, over, over time and to provide feedback and to give back and if it's inspires only one person then, then I'm happy.

Amazing. Thank you, sir.

Thank you so much.

Hello, it's Mike here again. I hope you enjoyed this week's show. If you did, then maybe you want to follow the show or subscribe depending on where you listen, whether that's itunes, Spotify or another great place to listen to the show from. It's totally free and means that you'll be the first to see each and every week when we release a new show. And maybe whilst you're there, you could even leave a quick review. Reviews and ratings are among the most important metrics for a podcast to effectively rank. And as you can probably appreciate, the podcast is a lot of hard work to produce every week. It'd be amazing. Just take say 20 seconds, leave a quick review of my amazing guests and their great career stories. We'd really appreciate it. Thanks very much and I can't wait to see you soon.