How to Advance Your Treasury Career with Oliver Gygax

Foreign.

Welcome to this week's Treasury Career Corner podcast where I talk to treasurers about their treasury careers. Each and every week I talk to them about how they've built their careers, where they're now, where they see both themselves and treasury profession. Going to next. This is one of our summer rerun episodes, if you like. So I did this amazing episode with Oliver Gigax, the now treasurer Ascendia. When originally I interviewed Oliver, he'd been through a number of roles at the time he was with EMS Group. So you're going to hear that episode first and then we're going to go into his most recent couple of moves at the end of the show. So stay tuned for that. It's great to reconnect with him. Love doing these podcasts, but now you get to listen to some of the. The reruns, the highlights, and we bring it back to life. So enjoy the episode.

In this week's show, I'm joined by Oliver Gigax. Now, Oliver, the header is the head of Group Treasury, EMS Group we were just talking about. This is. He'll explain Em's group, but it's named after the village where the group came from or is based and things like that. But they're based in Switzerland and he will. It's a Swiss corporate group, so he can explain a lot more about that for the listeners today. Massive company. I'm not going to get into it, actually, because Oliver, we were just discussing it with. There's so many diverse. I thought, no, you do it much better than me, Oliver. So I'm going to go back to the beginning, as I do on each and every show, because we talked a lot. He's. Ollie's moved through his different career in different areas. So he started in banking. Then you've gone lots of different industries, so there's lots of different things feeding into it. We've spoken at one stage he was with Swarovski, one of my wife's favorite brands. We'll come back to that later in the show. Ollie, take us back to the start, if you would, and how you originally discovered finance and then came into Treasury. Wonderful world of Treasury. Take us back to your beginnings, if you like. Over to you, sir.

First of all, hi, Mike from my side and thanks a lot for having me in your podcast. It's quite an honor and pleasure. Looking forward to talk to you about treasury and Pulse and the future and all these interesting topics. Yeah. Where did it start? I think I started in the mid-80s. The classic commercial apprenticeship within a bank. There you go. Through all the departments during the three years and afterwards you are done with education and then you start and so on, full member of the staff. How I landed in Treasury, I landed first in the foreign exchange dealing department. That was a pure accident because during the apprenticeship this department didn't exist within the bank. In Switzerland you have to go to military service. So after the education I went to the military service, went back to the same bank into the foreign exchange dealing and I really didn't have a clue what that was about. My parents in the back, they told me, ah, if you can stay within the bank, then you should stay. They paid during the military service and then you can get some practical experience and then you can move on. So I took that as a wise advice from my parents and did that. Ended up in foreign exchange trading.

And what was that like? I know we spoke the other day about this and being a trader and I started in treasury recruitment back in the days when there were lots of foreign exchange traders and then it just as a profession it disappeared over time. We spoke a bit about that, but obviously early days, so really interesting. You were learning a lot at that early stage. I remember you going, I wasn't quite sure about some of the stuff I was doing, but you were working with some experienced guys. What did you take from that? And then obviously that leads in later on to your treasury career and things. What did you get from that?

First? It was very exciting, you know, it was in the 90s, it was a very exciting time. I was actually very happy to get into this business within a small bank because there you were not just responsible for one currency pair or you were not just responsible for one foreign exchange instrument. So you had the full variety. So that gave me the chance to have a deeper insight into each area in foreign exchange or cash management, or rather say money market or capital market instruments.

And what did you find when you were learning that sort of basis trade, if you like, and flow products and everything else? What was that showing you that you then kept in your back pocket, if you like. What were you finding then?

That very. It's very difficult. It's a very fast market. It's very difficult to predict where market is heading within another bank. We were six propriety traders. Our task was just to make money for the bank. We were not in Zurich, we were in the middle of nowhere. We were young guys at huge limits to deal and we were basically free. So it was a pure speculation what we had to do. I think that was a high risk. When I think back this was a high risk bank was running with that.

Yeah, you progressed through there. And then talk us through how you grew as a person in those early days.

The good thing is you have to take responsibility. That's what you learned from the beginning. If you decide to enter a position in a currency pair then you take responsibility for that. And at the end you have where you can see what you earn for the bank or what you lose. Both sides of the story for that you have to take responsibility. And I remember my first loss. I think that's something a trader maybe or at least I never forget quite a bit a big loss. So I had to take the responsibility for that. Talking to the management what happened? How can we solve this issue? I was very young.

But you took that on and then you then grew through a few different banks. What was that just natural progression that you started with the local bank and then wanted a bit more different experiences or what happened?

Yeah, after being prop trader I changed aside. I went to treasury sales. Yeah, I was dealing with the corporate which was a bit more interesting and larger variety of tasks. Purely foreign exchange trading. It made for me then a bit more sense to deal with the customers. Although it was also a huge learning process because coming from the trading side I thought that a corporate he has to know where euro dollar is or a lot of time back where dollar against Deutsche markets or French franc or Spanish casitas or so and everything else doesn't really matter. Of course this is not true. It's just tiny little part of it. And that was also a learning process. So I had the chance to do this job for a couple of banks in Switzerland but also in South Africa. So got deeper insights into the corporate world. But then before I changed to the corporate side I had into Metzo during the phase of the new economy at the beginning of 2000 with an online bank project. So that was then basically a break to the classic banking.

And a lot of people don't. They don't really get it. I was recruiting that time I recruited at the time we used to have the joke and some of the guys listening today won't know this. They used to say how do you scare an investment banker? You just say boo.com. that was a company that was an online sales company for retail and it was heavily invested in and lost a lot of bankers a lot of money. So you know that you were able to scare them by saying that for yourself. That was the first breakout from banking being within it. But that introduced you to the world of corporate treasury talk Us through that sort of progression, if you would.

If I go back to the classic banking, I remember my boss, when I was talking to him about my decision to leave the bank and go for the online banking project, he told me, hey, that's the right move. You do the bank, you need to go with clients or you go with technology. I said, yeah, okay, I go with technology. That was the first phase of this new economy. It was also interesting because they saw, I think it was there were around three projects running for establishing online banks in Switzerland during that time. One of them was successful and still exists. The other ones, they also got life had full banking license. But after a year or two years or so, they found out that maybe not everything was done right, not legally or things like that. But in my case, the online banking project I was working for, there was, I think around a hundred people were working on that. 45 people were employed by this online bank and five people of us, we have banking experience. And I just think this is not enough to run a bank. I think at the end it was just too early for such a project. But it helped me personally to get a foot into the corporate world because it was my experience for project work. When I arrived in the office on the first day for this online bank, then I had a clean desk, so I had to start establishing a Treasury department from scratch. That was great. With all the connections you where I have to organize as a bank. The connection to the national bank, is it for the reporting side, is it all the cash management? How do you fix rates for future customers, everything. I think that was why I got the chance to work for a corporate afterwards.

And when you say you got a chance, you, you. So you'd done the banking, the actual trading, then you'd done the sales side of things, then you'd been the treasurer for the bank from a blank sheet of paper. How did you come about it? And again, if you can talk about Swarovski and everything else, if you would just a global brand, maybe again, for the listeners, explain how you got the role and then move through it, if you would.

It was a classic just on ad on this job for Swarovski. I was not convinced within the online bank this thing will fly and be a success. So I was looking for another chance. And they were just, they were looking for a treasurer as I was in treasury sales. And then I had the link to corporates. I thought that might be a very interesting thing to change the site completely. As said before, I think that was this job in between the banking to the corporate part, that gave me the chance to move the side. So when I started at Swarovski, I was the successor of the future head of corporate finance. So I had my predecessor who became my boss, I had a mentor to who helped me to get into this corporate world.

I knew what to do. They'd been there, done it. It can be a double edged sword. I'm recruiting a treasurer role at the moment and the treasurer has become the cfo. And he said it was great for this person because you've got the sort of the shield, the umbrella if you like, of me helping this person. Ah said, but also the pain for this person is when they say oh, we're going to do it like this. No, doesn't work. Try it that way. This is broken, you can't do it, or whatever. So he said no, I'm there to help, I don't want to interfere, but you've got that. So it wasn't necessarily a blank sheet of paper. But what were you tasked with doing there when you joined the group? We. And again some people will know the group. I do. Can you explain what people, what the group does?

Swarovski is the nuscent jewelry business. We produce crystal products mainly jewelry is quite multiple during that I think they have around 2,800 stores or used to have. I think now they also go to a restructuring phase. But there's plenty of companies around the world, distribution companies and I think three main manufacturing sites company.

And so what was Treasury? You said that you succeeded a treasurer. Was there a treasury in place or did you come in and have to bring in new structures and everything else or what was the sort of background?

No, it was an existing department going back to 2002. So we were basically two of us. It was me, one of my colleagues and then my boss as a responsible person for corporate treasury within corporate finance. And now that this was existing and a couple of things were already done, like the hedging program for foreign exchange. My first job was to implement the treasury system and to establish euro cash pool. And these are two perfect projects to get into a company. First you have to evaluate the treasury system. You have to learn what is really required for the company, what is necessary, what is not necessary, how much money you can spend for that. For the cash management you have to learn all the participating companies, you have to convince, you have to explain them when all of a sudden their accounts in the evening will be balance will be at zero and not filled with money anymore. So this, that was very helpful getting to get into this company, into this new world.

So you were working as a retail group treasurer. So retail organization. So that was a strength of yours, if you like. And then you move from there to join and again you can pronounce it but Arduino Group. Is that the way you say it?

Yeah, the Arduino Group. Nowadays it's called the Group. It's a Swiss credit card company belonging to basically all the banks within Switzerland except UBS and Credit Suisse. They have their own credit card companies. The shareholders are like Campanell banks, et cetera, original banks, Dryfeiser and bank like that. But the reason to move is maybe that's interesting that after I had the chance to learn this corporate. When I got into this corporate world, I was doing this post this job for five years and then I basically wanted to have the full responsibility on the Treasury. I was not like the group treasurer. My boss was much more involved still in Treasury. So it was not my full responsibility on the treasury for the Treasury Department. This wish arised that I want to have this full responsibility. Then I got the chance to get this to, to run the Treasury Department for the credit card company. And then we were a team of three and I was heading this department.

And you'd had experience and again we spoke a little bit about this, not in detail, but touched on the fact that you. So you've been in financial services, you've gone into corporate, then you made the move back again. So it was great that you'd had that experience. What was that like for you, coming back into that sort of industry? And I'll make, I'll make this point because, well, people will discover that you then came back again and then back again, which is within the most recent group. Big focus is polymers and stuff. So you've moved through these sort of industries in different ways. What was. What's that like for you as a Treasury professional, really focusing on that? What would you say?

You mentioning the different industries? But my focus was not really on the industries. My focus was on the job and on the job description and what can I learn from me. I mentioned I had an apprenticeship and so step by step I was filling my backpack with experience. And so the industry as such was secondary for me. First I wanted to leave the bank, so I went to the online bank. Then I wanted to leave the banking as such I went to the corporate site. So then I wanted to lead the Treasury Department. I went to the Arduino Group. And then leaving the Arduino Group, I Got the chance to have the responsibility for a Treasury within Swarovski, because I bought a new established position within Swarovski. During that time of my absence, credit card business was great, very interesting, very fast moving, but I was missing the international part of it. So going back to Swarovski, it helps that if you live good in a good way, then the people are happy if you come back.

Tell us about that. So people might have missed that sort of thing, that you were a Swarovski in the number two position, you did two years in the credit card and then you went back again. So what happened?

Pick up the number one position, Swarovski. I was talking to my boss and told him, look, after five years, I would like to have a bit more responsibility. And during that time it was not possible. So I was looking for it outside the Swarovski world. During that time, they restructured the whole finance department. So there was found a new position and I had the chance to become number one. And because of internationality, I always felt very happy working for Swarovski. So it was for me a good reason to go back and I could enlarge in the team, I could go for new projects. So lots of things have changed.

And when you went back in, you'd experienced it once. Were you able to correct the frustrations? And that's not a question of your previous boss or anything else. That's not why. What I mean is you were working there in the level you were, but then you were given increased power, increased responsibility, the leadership role. How did you then go about approaching that in a respectful way? What was the best way that you went? Did you just checklist again? A lot of people do. A lot of people in treasury talk about, check this, right? This is where we were. This is what I've seen. Let's move on this way.

How did it work?

There was nothing wrong before. It was just like with growing in a job, you want to grow as well. If you have yourself established and you think there is a part you want to learn or which is helpful for you. And I think you must find where you can do that, because the career as such is your individual story. It's not the company's task give you the career. That's why, for me, Daniel said it was running a team or running a department. Having this chance to go back. My boss, I had before, he was still there and he became my boss again. But he was not involved in treasury anymore.

He'd handed it off to you knew you were the person to run it.

So I felt the trust that I can do that. And he knew me already so he knew I can run this department and that was basically the reason to do that. Yeah, to go back. But you're right, it's not the usual thing And I also to me once if you leave and you leave and you don't go back but I've learned it.

That's why I'm asking because you'd gone back in and you had such a good relationship sometimes but it's unusual to go back into there sort of thing. But when you came in you then spent another sort of ten plus years there. Where did you. What was treasury like when you started there and how did it develop before we move on to your most recent role?

When I started as I said was establishing a cash flow was something completely new. So it was more like on improving the basics I'd say And then for the second part technology part started but so treasury system we implemented was not good enough anymore because we're also growing a lot during that time as well. We had to find another treasury system. Then we went for automated processes. That was not the topic in the beginning or in the mid 2000s it was really the basic and. But then in the second part we could improve what we've started with optimization with straight through processes became more and more a strategic position rather than an operational position. For me personally of course I have a large team taking care of all the operational stuff but for me it was became more and more strategic and.

Then bring us up to date bring in the most how did you move from there? You'd had a long history with the group which is fantastic. What then you then moved into this position and again you described the company for me because I want to get it right. So I think so and you can describe it much better than I can.

The EMS group is in a high or produces high performance polymers and special chemicals. I think one of the leaders within this niche in the chemical industry. We have a turnover of around 2 billion Swiss francs. Around 2,500 employees worldwide. We have more than 20 production sites all over the world. Even more distribution companies. The largest client sector is the automotive industry. But it doesn't end wherever polymers or special chemicals or needed jams group can help. So you won't find the brand anys on a product but in most of the products there is amps.

So in most car we have this did a lot of work with Johnson Controls and then span off with Ian and things like that and Stuff that. Is it similar that you're one of those companies that everybody.

If they.

If you knew, you would know. But you're in most. Most automotive or you're most this. Is that the sort of thing you would say?

Yes, absolutely. Yeah.

So what's that been like for you? As I say this go back to you as a treasurer. You'd have this long history, if you like. Then this new challenge, how did that come through and what's it been like?

Yes, that was a very long history and we done a lot during that time. It was at the end, it was nine years in total. I was working 14 years for Swarovski. At the end. I was lacking of ideas. How can we further improve? It was really running well. I had a wonderful team and we implemented systems we could improve processes. Became more and more a business partnering. But for me personally it was very difficult to define new targets. So I just felt, yeah, it's time to move on. I also realized we're going close to 50. It's also something you have to consider. Won't get easier. Maybe you know better.

As a recruiter, there comes a time, doesn't there? For you know, you do a role for the first year you're learning everything. The second year you're repeating it. Third year you're improving it that many times. And then after three years, unless the role changes, some roles can just last three years. So that's the year before, notwithstanding some of the current events and things. But you'd been through that and as you say, it's conquered a lot of the challenges. So maybe it was a natural next time. But what's it been like? What are the challenges for the group? And more recently, given the world situation, has that been a challenge for the group or is it you're quite resistant to that sort of thing?

No, of course it's a challenge because as M's group selling the products the automotive industry, that was very difficult last year. But the AMS group we are really flexible and then we just started to produce polymers for the testing kits. It of course it doesn't equalize. There's a lot of turnover on the automotive industry. But it just show how flexible Jens group connect. Of course this helps. Therefore it was if you take circumstances still very successful year.

Yeah, it's a pivot, isn't it? So you. You change. You don't just follow the previous way. You okay, what do we do next? What do we. And again, that's a sign of a good company like that in that way. And where do we talked about you as a treasurer? And I know that when you and I have spoken, you're very engaging treasurers, stuff like that. Where do you see treasury developing? What are the key challenges? Is it for some treasurers we get into the IT side of things and automation. Is that something you're seeing a lot of or what are you seeing?

Yeah, I have to differentiate on that side because I also mentioned that we were discussing when you were talking earlier. I think it really depends on the company. Of course you have a general direction, but you always have to consider what is the aim of the company, what is their requirement, where are their strength, their weaknesses. And I think there you have to set the focus. It's not that you have to go for technology because it's hip. You have to go for technology if it helps you, if you get the benefit out of it. And I think there it really depends on the company. I mentioned, for example, the foreign exchange trading platform, which is really a great system. At Swarovski we implemented that. We made a straight through process for foreign exchange dealing. There we had nine currencies to hedge. Time horizon was 24 months with a layer strategy. So each month we had to produce foreign exchange trades. So we had a hell of a lot of on exchange rates. So we have to optimize that.

Do you see that being the continual sort of cycle? Do you see that the more that can be straight through processing and that's a key thing that you want to see everybody doing.

So this is the thing that everybody has to do. But now working for ems, I see that it's not necessary that you have to do that. So it really depends. At EMS we have less amount of transactions, but we have larger tickets. So it really depends. For me, it's cheaper to have this few deals, probably manually, instead of spending money for an interface or the straight through process here it makes sense. Yeah, Swarovski, it wouldn't make sense at all to have some manual steps before.

We move towards the end of the show, we'll talk about LinkedIn and we'll put those details in. But before we even get to that stage, I just want to explore that a little bit more. You say that it was obviously different with the group and I don't want to go into details too much about the group and things like that, but more where do you see you're continuing in this role? What do you see as this is my next reason the being this is the next thing we've got to focus on. What are the Challenges coming down the line sometimes I've talked in previous episodes the CFO saying I need you to handle this on a very. This is what's going to come down. But you sitting in your chair as treasurer now, as we come out of this horrible situation, but the world's getting back on its feet and everything else, what do you see as next? Some bits have been maybe put on the shelf. What's coming at you next? What are the next challenges?

The next challenge is actually it's a current challenge. It's like where can you earn money? And here I have to say you are as a Treasury department, you either set up as well as a service department or a profit center. And I think at Ames we are a mixture. We have luckily enough cash, so we are battling negative interest rates in Switzerland. As long as you don't invest money, the cash position grows. And so what are you doing to avoid this preservative interest? I think that's quite an actual challenge and that will keep us busy quite, quite a while.

And when you're, when you're maybe sitting with other treasurers, what are you telling them to do to deal with that? What are your. Without giving them everybody the secret sauce about what you do. But are you saying focus on the basics and the rest will happen or what are you thinking that people should be doing?

I think that they had really to find out what the company needs. Also be careful with the spending on systems and do a proper calculation only before you invest money into systems, do a serious analysis. I think it makes sense if there is a profit. If there is a profit, it makes sense to implement a system. But don't go just for system because.

Go for the next bright shiny things. So they focus on the basics. Okay, but that covers, if you like, the sort of all the treasury piece and the work piece as such. I wanted to just focus in as we wrap up today's show. As always, I put in your LinkedIn details in the show notes. So if people want to connect to you and you think it's right to have them in your connections, then feel free to. So you connect to Oliver there. But I just wanted to reflect on you because you've had this experience through banking and then these great corporates and grown in your career. If someone's sitting there today, maybe at the early stage of their career and they go, oh yeah, this is great, I want to do similar thing or mid level career or they're more senior treasurers, what are the things that you would tell those guys to do? It could be a few bits of advice or just some of the things as you sit there and reflect. What are you thinking that people should be doing? Going away from today's show?

Yeah. I think you always have to stay flexible in your mindset. You have to be curious and you have to be willing to learn. Times are changing so fast and you have to keep up with what's going on. I think these are the three most valuable things you can do.

I love it. Stay curious. And we've. We. I think that's actually going to be something we'll put as sort of the Stay Curious podcast. That's something I hear from so many treasurers that you're very inquisitive guys. You're always forward focused. I think it's brilliant. So we've rocketed through there. I know that some people will really want to connect to you, Oliver, because you've got some great stuff to offer. We'll put your details in the show notes and thank you for your time today. Look forward to seeing you in the real world for a beer soon. It'll be lovely to see you looking.

Very much forward to that. Mike. Thanks a lot for having me.

Pleasure, sir. So welcome back.

I hope you guys enjoyed that episode with Oliver. Now I'm actually rejoined by him. He's moved on. So we last spoke two years ago in 2021 and since then OL has moved on and developed and he is now the treasurer for Ascendia. Now they're launched in 2012 by La Post and Swiss Post who've got operations across the world. They're one of the world's leaders in international e commerce and mail, delivering packages, parcels and documents to more than 200 destinations across the globe. So bring this up to date because you were EMS and then you've moved on from there and had a bit of an adventure since then.

What's happened I think at the end around close to four years working for ems, which was a very exciting time and very special and successful company in the chemical industry. I felt like I had to do something new and as I mentioned curious guy and would like to see different industries. The option came up to build up a treasury for Utopia Music which is a Swiss startup company aiming to digitalize the royalty management and also do some pre funding of royalties was really an exciting company or still is a very exciting company. So I decided to join them to build up a treasury department. So quite a vision about rowing and to enter the music business. And as I'm. I love music. Can't be without music. So I thought to combine it with my work cadence. Just perfect. Yeah, well I started there in November 2022. Since I agreed to start with or since I signed the contract with Utopia Music, the market environment unfortunately has changed dramatic.

Yes.

So with the increasing rates, overall market sentiment decreasing due to the conflict of the war in the Ukraine.

Yeah.

So also fintechs are struggling, still hard to find investors. So that also became very difficult period for Utopia Music. So at the end it was not really a full buildup of a Treasury Department, but it was also more like urgency payment.

And you did that role as you say and it sort of ran its course if you like. It's a very difficult time in the market. And then more recently you joined Ascendia. Who are they? And you know what's the sort of the next step?

I think it's, it's also it's not the startup anymore. Yeah, as it was mentioned it was founded 202012 but it's still a fast growing especially I focusing on the e commerce part also there still growing especially during the pandemic times. Now it has became a bit more relaxed again but still there is lots of potential and there was no, no Treasury. Well there was a Treasury but dealt with mainly manually. All the processes are decentralized. So I think it's very interesting to build up on the centralization and to build up on like a best practice Treasury Department for Ascendia. I mean the topics are same like cash management, funding cash for forecasting foreign exchange risk but just to basically build it from scratch. That's highly interesting and this is something that looking forward to do so and.

One of the things I was just listening to our previous podcast when we were talking about you know, things like interest rates and you know, only invest in systems if you can see a return, don't just do it for the sake of it. Any reflections on now you two years further on in your journey as a treasurer. What are the things that are sort of you're thinking about or you might be invited on a stage to think about in treasury because you've had two of these two further years in your career. What's it given you in terms of perspective?

Well first of all, I mean it was a tremendous change from ems, this traditional company to Utopia Music. What was a startup fintech company which is just from culture wise it's completely different. Also the way of working, it was only remote working but still you still felt very much in a team. I think that this usage of this new communication systems, this is for me, highly interesting because I was not used to that. It was at M before that it was more like one day working in from home. The rest you stay in the office. At Utopia, it was different. Treasury was a one man show. Yeah, it's the same here with Ascendia. Also with Ascendia, it's 95% suggested. It's remote work. And so this, this is really something different. But it also brings lots of flexibility. So I think the work life balance is actually very interesting with such a setup. And I don't think that I'm not involved in a team. Yeah, I'm still embedded in a finance team with lots of communication during the day with the team. Not face to face, but still by.

Constantly talking to them. And as we wrap up, you know, we're gonna not keep you for too long, but we're going to wrap up some of the learnings and things like that. But you know what, what's the latest advice you give to people? You know, they've listened to you before, which is great, some great takeaways. But as we go into this next one, what's your updated advice, if you like, for people as we close today's.

Show, I think the advice stays the same. Like I was talking about being curious and I mean I, in the past two years I learned about two industries. So the one was this fintech and music industry and now the second one I'm learning is the logistics. These are two industries I haven't known two years before. I have known about two years before and they are. Culture is completely different, but it also makes it very, very interesting. I mean, I said the topics are not that different, focus is different, but it's, it's the industry as such that I think makes my day. Yes.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Fabulous.

Yeah.

Well, Oliver, thank you for rejoining us. I think people will have enjoyed your previous episode, heard, you know, the updated story and again we'll put your LinkedIn details in the show notes. So I think have Oliver in very curious treasurer in a good way. So someone that you can definitely, you know and we'll meet up, be seeing you at various things and we're talking about continuation of your journey, if you like, sir. So thank you very much for your time today. You've been a star.

Thanks a lot for having me.

My pleasure.

Looking forward to talk to you again.

Great stuff.

Thanks.

Hello, treasury professionals. Before you dive into the next episode, could you please help me continue to grow the world's only global treasury salary survey? That's right. Our one we run the results quarterly so you know your compensation is constantly benchmarked against the market and your peer group each and every three months. It's amazing, isn't it? Just go to treasurysalary.com takes less than two minutes to complete, start to finish. You then gain exclusive, regular, updated access to our salary survey, keeping you ahead of the curve. The survey is an evolving, breathing entity that constantly tracks the salaries of treasury professionals on a global basis. Currently, we have over 1100 participants taking part. By the end of 2023, I want to hit 1500, but that's where I need your help. Please make it happen@treasurysalary.com thank you for being such amazing, loyal listeners. Your support is incredible. Couldn't do it without you. Thank you. Go to treasurysalary.com make it 1500 for 2023. Love you guys.