How to Always Move Forward in Your Treasury Career with Oliver Gygax

Foreign welcome to this week's Treasury Career Corner podcast where I interview treasury professionals about their treasury careers. Each and every week I talk to them about how they build their careers, where they are now, where they see both themselves and the treasury profession going to next. Let's get on with the show. In this week's show, I'm drawing joined by Oliver Gigax. Now, Oliver, the header is the head of group Treasury, M's group we were just talking about. This is. He'll explain M's group, but that's named after the village where the group came from or is based and things like that. But they're based in Switzerland and he will. It's. Well, it's a Swiss corporate group so he can explain a lot more about that for. For the listeners today. Massive company. I'm not going to get into it actually, because Oliver, we were just discussing. It was. There's so many diverse. I thought, no, you do it much better than me, Oliver. So I'm going to go back to the beginning, as I do on each and every show, because we talked a lot. Ollie's moved through his different career in different areas. So we started in banking. Then you've got lots of different industries, so there's lots of different things feeding into it. We've spoken at one stage he was with Swarovski, one of my wife's favorite brands. But you know, we'll come back to that later in the show. Ollie, take us back to the start, if you would, and how you originally discovered finance and then came into Treasury. Wonderful world of Treasury. Take us back to your beginnings, if you like. Over to you, sir.

Well, first of all, hi, Mike from my side and thanks a lot for having me in your podcast. It's quite an honor and pleasure. We're looking forward to talk to you about treasury and the past and the future and all these interesting topics. Yeah. Where did it start? I think I started in the mid-80s. The classic commercial apprenticeship within a bank. There you go through all the departments during the three years and afterwards you are done with education and then you start as a full member of the staff. How I landed in Treasury, I landed first in the foreign exchange dealing department. That was a pure accident because during the apprenticeship this department didn't exist within the bank in Switzerland you have to go to military service. So after the education I went to the military service, went back to the same bank into the foreign exchange dealing and I really didn't have a clue what it was about. My parents in the back, they told me if you can stay within the bank, then you should stay. They pay during the military service and then you can get some practical experience and then you can move on. So I took that as a wise advice from my parents and did that and ended up in foreign exchange trading.

And what was that like? I know we spoke the other day about this and being a trader and I started in treasury recruitment back in the days when there were lots of foreign exchange traders. And then it just sort of as a profession it disappeared over time and we spoke a bit about that. But obviously early days, so really interesting you were learning lots. But you know, in that early stage I remember you going, you know, I wasn't quite sure about some of the stuff I was doing. But you were working with some experienced guys. What did you take from that? And then so obviously that leads in later on to your treasury career and things. So what did you get from that?

Well, at first it was very exciting. It was in the 90s, it was a very exciting time. I was actually very happy to get into this business within a small bank because there you were not just responsible for one currency pair or you were not just responsible for one foreign exchange instrument. So you had the full variety. So that gave me the chance to have a deeper insight into each area in foreign exchange or cash management, or rather say money market or capital market instruments.

And what did you find, you know, when you were learning that sort of basis trade, if you like, and flow products and everything else, what was that showing you that you've then sort of kept in your back pocket if you like. What were you finding then?

It's very difficult. It's a very fast market. It's very difficult to predict where market is heading within another bank. We were six proprietary traders. Our task was just to make money for the bank. We were not in Zurich, we were in the middle of nowhere. We were young guys at sort of huge limits to deal and we were basically free. So it was a pure speculation what we had to do. I think that was a high risk. When I think fact that it was a high risk, the bank was running with that.

Yeah, you progressed through there and then sort of talk us through how you grew as a person in those early days.

The good thing is you have to take responsibility. That's what you learn from the beginning. I mean, if you decide to enter a position in a currency pair, then you take responsibility for that and at the end you have where you can see what you earn for the bank or what you lose. Both sides of the story for that you have to take responsibility. And I remember my first loss. I think that's something a trader maybe, or at least I never forget was quite a big loss. So I had to take the responsibility for that and talk to the management. What happened? How can we solve this issue? I was very young.

But you took that on and then you then grew through a few different banks. Was that just natural progression that you started with the local bank and then wanted a bit more sort of different experiences or what happened?

Yeah, after being prop trader I changed the side and went to treasury sales. So I was dealing with the corporate, which was a bit more interesting and larger variety of tasks purely on exchange trading. It made for me then a bit more sense to deal with the customers. Although it was also a huge learning process because coming from the trading side, I thought corporate, he has to know where euro dollar is or well, I go to time back we have a dollar against Deutsche Marques or French Franc or Spanish Casitas or so. And everything else doesn't really matter. Of course this is not true. This just tiny little part of it. And that was also a learning process. So I had the chance to do this job for a couple of banks in Switzerland, but also in South Africa. So got deeper insights into, into, into the corporate world. But then before I changed to the corporate side, I had intermezzo during the phase of the new economy, the beginning of 2000 with, with an online bank project. So that was then basically the break to the classic banking.

And a lot of people don't, they don't really get it. I mean I, I was recruiting at that time. I recruited, you know, at the time people used to have the joke and some of the guys listening today won't know this, but you know, they used to say, how do you scare an investment banker? You just say boo.com. that was company, that was an online sales company for retail and it was heavily invested in and lost a lot of bankers a lot of money. So you know that you were able to scare them by saying that. But you know for yourself, that was sort of the first breakout from banking being within it. But that introduced you to the world of corporate treasury. Talk us through that, that sort of progression, if you would.

Well, if I go back to the classic banking, I mean I remember my boss when, when I was talking to him about my decision to leave the bank and go for the online banking project, he told me, hey, that's the right move. You do the bank. You either go with the clients or you go with technology. I said, yeah, Okay, I go with technology. That was the first phase of this new economy. It was also interesting because I think it was there were around three projects running for establishing online banks in Switzerland during that time. One of them was successful and still exists. The other ones, they also got life, had full banking license. But after a year or two years or so, they found out that maybe not everything was done right. I mean, not illegally or things like that. But in my case, the online banking project I was working for, it was, I think around 100 people were working on that. 45 people were employed by this online bank, and five people of us, we had banking experience. And I just think this is not enough to run a bank. I think at the end it was just too early for such a project. But it helped me personally to get a foot into the corporate world because it was my experience for project work. When I arrived in the office on the first day for this online bank, then I had a clean desk, so I had to start establishing a Treasury department from scratch. And that was great. With all the connections you have to organize as a bank. Is it connection to the national bank? Is it full reporting side? Is it all the cash management? How do you fix rates for the future customers? Everything. I think that was why I got the chance to work for a corporate afterwards.

And when you say you got a chance, done the banking, you know, sort of the actual trading, then you've done the sales side of things, then you've been the treasurer for the bank from a blank sheet of paper. Well, how did you come about it? And again, if you can talk about Swarovski and everything else, if you would just, you know, global brand. But, you know, maybe again, for the listeners, explain how you got the role and then move through it, if you would.

It was a classic, just an ad on this job for Swarovski. I mean, I was not convinced within the online bank that this will fly and be a success. So I was looking for another chance. And they were just. They were looking for a treasurer. As I was in treasury sales and I had the link to corporates, I thought that might be a very interesting thing to change the site completely. As said before, I think that was this job in between, between the banking to the corporate was the part that gave me the chance to move the side. So when I started at Swarovski, I was the successor of the future head of corporate finance. So I had my predecessor became my boss, right? I had like a mentor to who helped me to get into this corporate world.

I knew what to do. They'd been there, done it. It can be a double edged sword. I'm recruiting a treasurer role at the moment and the treasurer has become the cfo. And he said, well it's great for this person because you know you've got the sort of the shield, the umbrella if you like of me helping this person. Oh yeah. But also the pain for this person is when they say oh, we're going to do it on this. Nope, doesn't work. Try it that way. You know this is broken, you know you can't do it or whatever. So B said no, I'm there to help, I don't want to interfere, but you've got that. So it wasn't necessarily a blank sheet of paper, but what were you tasked with doing there when you joined the group? And again some people will know the group. I do. Can you explain what the group does?

Zorofsky is in this into jewelry business. They produce crystal products mainly jewelry is quite market leader in that. I think they have around 2,800 also used to have, I think now they also go through a restructuring phase. But there's plenty of companies around the world, distribution companies and I think three main manufacturing site company.

And so what was Treasury? You said that you, you succeeded a treasurer. Was there a treasury in place or did you come in and have to bring in new structures and everything else or what was the sort of background?

No, it was an existing department. I mean we're going back to 2002 so. So we were basically the two of us, it was me, one of my colleagues and then my boss as a responsible person for corporate treasury within corporate finance and know that this, this was existing and a couple of things were already done like the hedging program for foreign exchange. My first job was to implement the treasury system and to establish euro cash pool and I mean these are two perfect projects to get into a company. Well, first you have to evaluate the treasury system. You have to learn what is really required for the company, what is necessary, what is not necessary, how much money you can spend for that. For the cash management, you have to learn all the participating companies, you have to convince them, you have to explain them when all of a sudden their accounts in the evening will be. The balance will be at zero and not filled with money anymore. So that was very helpful to get into this company, into this new role.

So you were working as a retail group treasurer, so sort of retail organization. So that was a strength of yours if you like. And then you move from there to Join. And again, you can pronounce it, but a Duno group. Is that the way you say it?

Yeah, the Arduino Group. Nowadays it's called the Wizeca Group. It's a Swiss credit card company belonging to basically all the banks within Switzerland except UBS and Credit Suisse. They have their own credit card companies. The shareholders are like cantonal banks, etc. Original banks, brightfeisen and banks like that. But the reason to move is maybe. That's interesting that after I had the chance to learn this corporate. When I got into this corporate world, I was doing this job for five years and then I basically wanted to have the full responsibility on the Treasury. I was not like the group treasurer. I mean, my boss was much more involved still in treasury. So it was not my full responsibility on the Treasury. For the Treasury Department, this wish arised that I wanted to have this full responsibility. Then I got the chance to get this, to run the Treasury Department for the credit card company. And then we were a team of three and I was heading this department.

And you'd had experience and again, we spoke a little bit about this, not in detail, but touched on the fact that you. So you've been in financial services, you've gone into corporate, then you made the move back again. So it's great that you'd had that experience. What was that like for you, coming back into that sort of industry? And I'll make, you know, I'll make this point because, well, people will discover that you then came back again and then back again. So, you know, sort of. Which is, you know, in the most recent group, you know, big focus is polymers and stuff. So you've, you've moved through these sort of industries in different ways. What was. What's that like for you as a Treasury professional, really focusing on that? What would you say?

You mentioning the different industries? But my focus was not really on the industries, but my focus one was, was on the job and on the job description and what can I learn? For me, I mean, I mentioned I had an apprenticeship and so step by step I was filling my backpack with experience. And so the industry as such was secondary for me. First I wanted to leave the bank, so I went to the online bank. Then I wanted to leave the banking as such, I went to the corporate side. So then I wanted to lead the Treasury Department. I went to the Arduino Group. And then leaving the Arduino Group, I got the chance to have the responsibility for the treasury within Swarovski because it was a new established position within Swarovski. During that time of my absence, the credit card business was great, very interesting, very fast moving, but I was missing the international part of it. So going back to Swarovski, I mean, it helps that if you live good in a good way, then the people are happy if you come back.

Well, tell us about that. So people might have missed that sort of thing that you. You were at Swarovski in sort of a number two position. You did two years in the credit card and then you went back again, you know. So what happened?

I got the number one position at Swarovski. I was talking to my boss and told him, look, after five years, I would like to have bit more responsibility. And during that time it was not possible. So I was looking for it outside the Swarovski world. During that time, they restructured the whole finance department. So there was found a new position and I had the chance to become number one. And because of internationality, I always felt very happy working for Swarovski. So it was, for me, a good reason to go back and I could enlarge into team, I could go for new projects. So lots of things have changed.

And when you went back in, you'd experienced it once, were you able to, you know, correct the frustrations? And that's not a criticism of your previous boss or anything else. That's not what I mean. What I mean is you were working there in, you know, the level you were, but then you were given increased power, increased responsibility, you know, the leadership role, you know, how did you then go about approaching that in a respectful way? What was the best way that you went? Did you just checklist it again? A lot of people, you know, a lot of people in treasury talk about checklists, right? This is where we were. This is what I've seen. Extra. Let's move on this way. How did it work?

There was nothing wrong before. It was just like with growing in a job, you want to grow as well. You have yourself established and you think there is a part you want to learn or which is helpful for you, then I think you must find where you can do that, because the career as such is your individual story. It's not a company's task to give you the career. That's why, I mean, for me then, as Seth, it was running a team or running a department having this chance to go back. I mean, my boss, I had before, he was still there and he became my boss again. But he was not involved in treasury anymore, right?

He'd handed it off to you knew you were the person to run it.

So I felt the trust that I can do that. And he knew me already, so he knew I can run this department. And that was. That was basically the reason to do that and to go back. But you're right, I mean, it's not the usual thing. And I also said to me once, if you leave, then you leave and you don't go back. But I have to learn that.

That's why I'm asking because you'd gone back in and you know, you had such a good relationship sometimes, you know, but it's unusual go back into their sort of thing. But you know, when you came in, you then spent another sort of ten plus years there. Where did you sort of. What was treasury like when you started there and how did it develop before we move on to your most recent role?

When I started as establishing a cash flow was something completely new. So it was more like improving the basics, I'd say. And then for the second part, technology part started. So treasury system we implemented was not good enough anymore because Swarovski was growing a lot during that time as well. We had to find another treasury system. Then we went for automated processes. That was not the topic in the beginning or in the mid 2000s. It was really the basic. But then in the second part we could improve what we've started with optimization with straight through processes. It became more and more a strategic position rather than an operational position. For me, for me personally, yeah, of course I had a large team taking care of all the operational stuff. But for me it was. It became more and more strategic and.

Then bring us up to date, you know, bring in the most, you know, how did you move from there? You'd had a long history with the group, which is fantastic. What then you then moved into this position and again you described the company for me because I want to get it right. So I think so. And you can describe it much better than I can.

The EMS Group is in a. OR produces high performance polymers and special chemicals. I think we're one of the leaders within this niche in the chemical industry. We have a turnover of around 2 billion Swiss francs and 2,500 employees worldwide. We have more than 20 production sites all over the world, even more distribution companies. The largest client sector is the automotive industry. But it doesn't end wherever polymers or special chemicals are needed. The EMS Group can help. Right, so you won't find the brand EMS on a product, but in most of the products there is a Ms.

So in Most car we have this did a lot of work with Johnson Controls and then span off with Adyen and things like that and stuff. You know that. Is it similar that you're one of those companies that everybody. If they. If you knew, you would know, but you're in most. Most automotive or you're most this. Is that the sort of thing you would say?

Yes, absolutely.

So what's that been like for you? As I say this go back to you as a treasurer, you'd have this long history, if you like. Then this new challenge, how did that come through and what's it been like?

Yes, that was a very long history and we've done a lot during that time. At the end, it was nine years in total. I was working 14 years for Swarovski. At the end, I was lacking of ideas. How can we further improve? It was really running well. I had a wonderful team and we implemented systems we could improve processes. It became more and more business partnering. But for me personally, it was very difficult to define new targets. So I just felt it's time to move on. I also realized going close to 50, it's also something you have to consider. Won't get easier. Maybe you know better. As a recruiter, there comes a time.

Doesn'T therefore, you know, you do a role for the first year, you're learning everything. The second year you're repeating it. Third year, you're improving it that many times. And then after three years, unless the role changes, you know, some roles can just last three years, you know, so that's it before, you know, notwithstanding some of the current events and things. But you'd been through that and as you say, it sort of conquered a lot of the challenges. So maybe it was, you know, a natural next time, you know. But what's it been like? What are the challenges for, you know, the group? And more recently, you know, given. Given the world situation, has that been a, you know, a challenge for the group or is it, you know, you're quite resistant to that sort of thing?

No, of course it's a challenge because I mean, as EMS group selling the products to the automotive industry, I mean, that was a very difficult last year, but the EMS group, we are really flexible and then we just started to produce polymers for the testing kits. Of course it doesn't equalize the lost turnover on the automotive industry, but it just show how flexible the ensgroup can act. Of course this helps. Therefore it was, if you take the circumstances still very successful year.

It's a pivot, isn't It. So you sort of, you change, you sort of don't just follow the previous way. Right, okay, what do we do next? What do we. And again, that's a sign of a good company like that, in that, in that way. And you know, where do you, you know, we've talked about you as a treasurer, like, and I know that when you and I have spoken, you know, you're very engaging treasurer and stuff like that. Where do you see treasury developing? What are the key challenges you see? Is it, you know, for some treasurers, we get into the IT side of things and automation. Is that something you're seeing a lot of or what are you seeing?

Yeah, I have to differentiate on that side because I also mentioned that we discussed when we were talking earlier, I. It really depends on the company. Of course you have a general direction, but you always have to consider what is the aim of the company, what is their requirement, where are their strengths, their weaknesses. And I think there you have to set the focus. It's not that you have to go for technology because it's hip. You have to go for technology if it helps you and if you get the benefit out of it. And I think there, it really depends on the company. I mentioned, for example, the foreign exchange trading platform, which I think is really a great system. At Swarovski we implemented that. We made a straight through process for foreign exchange dealing. But There we had nine currencies to hedge. Time horizon was 24 months with a layer strategy. So each month we had to produce foreign exchange trade. So we had a hell of a lot of foreign exchange trades. So we had to optimize that.

Do you see that being the continual sort of cycle, you know, do you see that? You know, the more that that can be straight through processing and that's a key thing that you want to see everybody doing.

So this is the thing that everybody has to do. But now working for ems, I see that it's not necessary that you have to do that. So it really depends. At ems, we have less amount of transactions, but we have larger tickets. So it really depends. For me, it's cheaper to have these few deals put in manually instead of spending money for an interface for the straight through process here it makes sense. Yeah, it wouldn't make sense at all to have some manual step in fx.

Before we move towards the end of the show, we'll talk about LinkedIn and we'll put those details in. But I just want to, before we even get to that stage, you just listen. I just want to explore That a little bit more you say that, you know, it's obviously different with the group and I don't want to go into details too much about the group and things like that, but more where do you see, you know, you're continuing in this role? You know, what do you see as right, this is my next reason for being. We know this is the next thing we've got to focus on. What are the challenges coming down the line? Sometimes I've talked in previous episodes the CFO saying, right, I need you to handle this, Oliver. You know, this is what's going to come down. But you sitting in your chair as treasurer now, as we come out of this, you know, horrible situation, but the world's getting back on its feet and everything else. What do you see as next? You know, some bits have been maybe put on the shelf. What's coming at you next? What are the next challenges?

The next challenge is actually, it's a current challenge. It's like, where can you earn money? And here I have to say, you are as a Treasury department, you're either set up as a service department or a profit center. And I think at ems, we are sort of a mixture. We have luckily enough cash, so we are battling with negative interest rates in Switzerland. As long as you don't invest money, the cash position grows. And so what are you doing to avoid this negative interest? I think that's quite an actual challenge and that will keep us busy quite. For quite a while.

And when you're, when you're maybe sitting with other treasurers, what are you telling them to do, to deal with that? What are your. Without giving them everybody the secret sauce about what you do. But are you saying focus on the basics and the rest will happen or what are you doing thinking that people should be doing?

I think that they have really to find out what the company needs. Also be careful with the spending on systems and do a proper calculation before you invest money into systems. If you make a serious analysis, I think it makes sense if there is a profit, if there is a profit, it makes sense to implement a system. But don't go just for system because.

Don'T go for the next bright shiny thing. So I think focus on the basics. Okay, well that covers, if you like, the sort of all the treasury piece and the work piece as such. I wanted to just focus in as we wrap up today's show. As always, I put in your LinkedIn details in the show notes. So if people want to connect to you and you think it's right to have them in your connections then feel free to. So you can connect to Oliver there. But I just wanted to sort of reflect on you because you've had this, you know, experience through banking and then sort of these great corporates and you've grown in your career. If someone's sitting there today, maybe in the early stages of their career and they go, oh yeah, this is great, I want to do similar thing or mid level career or they're more senior treasurers, what are the things that you would tell those guys to do? And it could be a few bits of advice or just some of the things as you sit there and reflect. What are you thinking that people should be doing? Going away from today's show?

Yeah, I think you always have to stay flexible in your mindset. You have to be curious and you have to be willing to learn. Times are changing so fast and you have to keep up with what's going on. I think these are the three most valuable things you can do.

I love it. Stay curious. And we've had with. I think that's actually going to be something we'll pose a sort of the Stay Curious podcast. That's the thing I hear from so many treasurers that, you know, you're very inquisitive guys, you're always forward focused. I think it's brilliant. So we've rocketed through there. I know that some people will really want to connect to you, Oliver, because you've got some great stuff to offer. We'll put your details in the show notes and thank you for your time today. Look forward to seeing you in the real world for a beer soon. It'll be lovely to see you.

Looking very much forward to that, Mike, and thanks a lot for having me.

Pleasure, sir. Hello, it's Mike here again. I hope you enjoyed this week's show. If you did, then maybe you want to follow the show or subscribe, depending on where you listen, whether that's itunes, Spotify or another great place to listen to the show from. It's totally free and means that you'll be the first to see each and every week when we release a new show. And maybe whilst you're there, you could even leave a quick review. Reviews and ratings are among the most important metrics for a podcast to effectively rank. And as you can probably appreciate, the podcast is a lot of hard work to produce every week. It'd be amazing. Just take, say, 20 seconds, leave a quick review of my amazing guests and their great career stories. We'd really appreciate it. Thanks very much and I can't wait to see you. Soon. Soon.