How to be a Great Treasury Leader with Julien Muet

Hello, it's Mike Richards here from the treasury recruitment company. I hope you're enjoying the Treasury Career Corner. If you are great news, perhaps you give us a rating on itunes or wherever you consume your podcast content. This means that even more treasury professionals can benefit from finding out or by finding out about how treasurers have achieved their career goals. The link to rate our show will list at the bottom of our show notes. And please remember as well, the show itself is as much about you as it is about us. There are specific questions you want us to ask or there's feedback you want to give. Please drop me an email. My direct email is mikeresuryrecruitment.com inventibly enough. But anyway, that's enough from me. Let's get on with the show. Welcome to this week's Treasury Career Corner podcast where I interview treasury professionals about their treasury careers. Each week I talk to treasurers about how they built their careers, where they are now, and where they see both themselves and the treasury profession. Going to next in this week's show, delighted to be joined by Julien Mour, the now head of Corporate treasury at TUV Rhineland Group. Now TUV Rhineland, for those people that don't know it, I didn't know myself until I did my research is a world leading independent testing service company. We've been going for over 145 years, employing over 20,000 people around the world. Yeah, pretty big company. Generates an annual turnover of almost 2 billion euros. Now I know that Julien's recently come in as the group treasurer there just a few months ago. So what I'll do is get Julian to talk through his background. He'll perhaps give a bit more explanation of what TUV are about and everything else. Now I was going to say to again, Julian, tell us about your career today and how you got started. I actually had played a part in this because I originally moved Julian from DHL and Deutsche Post to company called Johnson Controls. And we interviewed Mark van der Benpeek in one of our previous episodes. So if people are interested in that, you can hear a bit more about Johnson Controls and everything else and we'll put some links in there. But as I say every week it's enough about me, enough of my wittering on, let's get into talking to Julian. So Julian, talk me through, if you would, your career today, how you got your start in treasury and you know, maybe from university dates up to now. And let's talk about the future of treasury, if you would. So over to you, where did you first start sure.

Mike. First of all, thank you for inviting me to the podcast. So it's a real pleasure to participate to the podcast. I know that something that you have introduced, I think a couple of years ago. I'm pleased to provide my input. I mean, you and me, we know each other Since I think 2003, as you just mentioned. So I think we have a longstanding relationship. I mean, you're an important partner to me in my professional careers here. Again, it's a pleasure to, to participate to your podcast. So, yeah, I mean, coming back to me, I'm 42 years old, two children living in colony. I started actually my career in treasury, but before that, I mean, obviously I was studying. I had as a, as a young man, basically I had a couple of interests in life. One of them was music, and the other one was always interesting about everything which was happening around me. I was reading a lot of newspaper, so that was actually. Or that were my two main interests in life. To be honest. After my A level, I tried, we tried to become a professional in music. So playing the piano.

What instrument? So you were. So you were piano player, were you?

I'm a piano player and I also play the flute. And after the A level, I told myself, hey, that's a great hobby. Let's try to make it my job to do my job. So I really tried to dedicate one year after the A level, preparing myself to enter into our high school of music in Germany. And actually it didn't work out. So at the end of this one year, okay, what should I do? Should I try another year with the risk of failing again, or should I be more conservative and pragmatic? And I work out to my second interest, second passion, which is basically what's happening around me. Economics, newspaper. So I was basically, okay, let's start studying economics. I started studying economics in France, where I did basically my bachelor. And after my bachelor, I decided basically to start working. I was as a young man also very keen to become independent. I wanted to earn my own money. So I decided to join the job market at an early stage, just after the bachelor. Then I started looking for a job. And to be honest, it was really coincidence. I mean, there was a job opening for Sanofi Aventis, that's a pharmaceutical company. They were looking for treasury guy. And then I would say, okay, I mean, treasury, why not? I mean, I've never studied anything in treasury in the university. Treasury was not part of what I've done in university. So it's really a coincidence. And I Said okay, let's try it, let's try it out. It sounds interesting. Son of Aventis is a big large company, international company. It's also it was at that time a merger from Rond Poonank, a French company in her a German company. Also from that perspective fit out very much my profile. My father's French, my mother is German. I say why not? And that's how I started in treasury, to be honest. So it was really a coincidence.

Happy accident.

And an accident battle. And then basically I've never left treasury since then. That was in I think 2000, 2001. I started in Sanofi Aventis. I would say typical cash management role, managing the daily liquidity of the group and a bit managing the bank relationship on the day to day of the group. It was pretty interesting. It was my first experience. I stood there something like two and a half years before basically moving on, I think was the right time to move on from a. From a content perspective. I've seen working around the job and I was happy basically to take up the next opportunity, which was Deutsche Poste in Germany. I mean in that move I also moved from one country to the other one, basically from France to Germany. At that time I met my wife who is German. So I didn't move only job, but also move my private and personal life. Exactly. So it was a big change.

What was the shift or what did the shift feel like to you making a move from a French based treasury to a German based Treasury? Did they approach treasury differently or was it exactly the same and just a different country or how did that affect you and what was the difference from, you know, Deutsche or Aventus to Deutsche Post? What was their approaches?

I mean Aventis and Deutsche Post are both international companies. So these are two multinational companies with a very strong, I would say American culture for both. Even so, Xenofi Aventis is I would say French company which is the result of a merger between a German and a French company. I mean you have been dealer. I have been dealing with a lot of international people, English speaking people. So it was not necessarily a pure French culture and a pure French atmosphere. So whether that time already international. So was Deutsche Post at that time when I started. So to be honest, there was not a big culture shock or culture differences within the company when moving from Sanofi Aventi Deutsche Post.

Well, talk us through the roles at Deutsche Post and your progression there because it is you sort of joined and then you progressed within the group before then eventually joining Johnson Controls and came out of the. But you know, sort of. Or talk us through the roles that you'd had and how you. Because you sort of started as a contributor and then became, if you like, a manager. And I was actually recently we did our Treasury Career Corner live event in Luxembourg and one of the guys afterwards, another Julian, actually I'll mention him as well, he, he said to me one of the key questions he wish he'd asked, which he should have done, was how do you make that move from, or manage that move from being a contributor and running and doing your job? How do you successfully then become a manager? What did a number of the panel members. So there's a question I'm going to try and ask a little bit more on the podcast and so I'll ask you as well, how did you make that transition as you progressed and things.

Yeah, sure. I mean, so I really, as you just mentioned, I started as an analyst, as a contributor at Deutsche Post 2004 and I was basically focusing on at that time cash flow forecasting and liquidity planning more looking at, I would say the long term planning, whether the short term cash management have been done so far at Sanofi Aventis. So it was basically, I would say an extension of further development of my skills in the area liquidity and cash management company. Dutch Post at that time was very interesting because 2004 basically when I joined was just actually just after or the year after they acquired two big multinational company which was at that time DHL and Danzas. Deutsche Post AG at that time was a domestic company obviously in the main business. So the challenge here was integrating two multinational company to Deutsche POS AG but at the same time basically optimizing processes, that is setting up and putting new processes within Deutsche POS because Deutsche POS was not an international company. Deutsche POS was not equipped at that time from a people and from process standpoint to integrate these two companies. So it was an integration initiative, but also a big optimization initiative at the same time. Deutsche both at that time hired quite some people from the external market to make it happen. And I was one of them basically. And that was very interesting because it was, I mean, 2004 and the following years were very interesting years for me because I had the opportunity to set up an entirely new treasury department together with Danielbrecht, who was basically my boss at that time, the group treasurer from DHL and also leading basic integration initiatives. So I've been learning a lot. I did learn a lot during that period. So Deutsche Post Was, was for my, in my career key very rapidly. Basically I moved from a, as you just mentioned, from a contributor to a manager role and basically leading what we call at that time operations and controlling. So I was basically the guy that set up guidelines for the, for the, for the group and was also controlling that. Basically the group was acting these, these, these guidelines. So there was a, I would say governance function, a controlling function, a reporting function. I was also responsible for, I would say typically operations means system processes within corporate treasury, so with a direct interaction with it. So it was also very interesting role. So it allows me at that time also to further grow within the treasury area from a content perspective, from a management perspective. Sure. I mean it was my first management experience at that time. I mean Danny at that time just gave me the chance. Okay, you're a good guy, you were performing, you're dedicated, you care about what you're doing, you have the tension to move to manager role. And obviously, yes, I mean the first month for years were challenging to me. What allowed me to become a good manager also from that perspective obviously was training. Okay. I mean formal training how to behave as a manager. What is a manager? But also a lot of reflection and a lot of thoughts with myself. Okay. I mean, what does it mean being a manager? What is the difference between a leader and a manager? Actually, no, I rather want to be a leader than a manager. I mean, at the end it doesn't matter whether you have direct reports, straight line reporting. What it means and really matters is that you're capable through your leadership to attract people, to inspire people. So just little things like don't speak about the I don't use the word I but rather use the word we. Right. You're part of a team. Right. And you're not succeeding in your career without the team. So. So the team is more important than actually the manager. And I don't see myself as a manager, but I see rather myself as a leader.

Right, so Julian, we've got people sitting at home now who have they just heard your part of the story where you said you were sort of questioning yourself, you're going home at night, how do I lead these people rather than just manage them and things like that. What are the tips you would perhaps give them? They're sitting there sort of going, oh yeah, that resonates with me, I really understand that. But you as a leader versus a manager, what the advice would you give them? Only needs to be a couple of pieces because we're going to then move on. And as you then took on more senior leadership roles and things like that. But what are the tips you would give to those guys?

Yeah, the first tip I would give to these guys is basically as a leader. I mean you're not the only one that knows everything and you're the one that basically instruct and dictate to you people what they have to do. And you're not the one that alone tell you people where they have to go. So you have to integrate your people into, I would say the decision making process. So when you set the strategy for the group, you have to include your people in setting that. So that's the first tip I would give. The second one is basically within the group you have to be capable to set up and to allow a certain or to define a certain number of rules. Right. And to separate the right culture. And one of the key culture you have to install within the group is an open communication. So you have to allow an open communication between you and the people. But you also have to accept that you people have no communication to you. And that includes basically I would say kind of 360 degree feedback culture. So that's very important. And the third tip I would here suggest to the people, to the young people that would like to become a manager or leader is basically you also have, as a leader you need to be inspiring. You have to have the capacity also to tell to your people when they've done good things, just to reward them. Not only go back to your people when things go wrong, but also go back to them when things go well. So goozing as a motto would be the third tip I would provide to young people.

So you did in total what, six years at Deutsche Post dhl. And then you got this phone call from this random treasury recruiter out of the blue and said, hey, let's move you to Berscheid. I think that's how you say it. So I approached you back in those days about a role Johnson Controls. You weren't necessarily looking for a move, but what attracted you to Johnson Controls and how come you made a move. And you know, I know the reasons, but let's tell the listeners a little bit about that, if you would.

Yeah, it was to around 2009, I think. Right. So I was always something, something like six years already with the company, with Deutsche Post dhl. I've gone through, I mean a lot of interesting position, a lot of interesting project. I felt very comfortable on all the areas concerning pure, I would say corporate treasury functions, let's say typical back middle and front office. But I was basically missing at that time, I would say more the business support part, right? The treasury being in contact with the local finance director with procurement, with sales, with the different, I would say functions within the corporations in order to support and advise them how to manage financial risk. So really, I mean I would say the LinkedIn to the business that I was basically missing, I was more into so far operating into, I would say the technical corporate treasury functions. I want to move aside and go to the business. So that was basically the profile of the job at Johnson Couture at that time that you came up with, right Mike, at that time. And that was a determining argument to me to take up this opportunity at that time. Ocm Deutsche Post, I mean change a bit. I would say the culture when I started 2003, 4, I mean Deutsche Post was operating a bit like a startup. A lot of changes, a lot of activity, a lot of projects, great hands on mentality. Six, seven years later, Deutsche Post, I mean all the structure, the processes, the system have been implemented and then Deutsche Post was more, I would say in a stable environment and then operating like a, a huge multinational company, 50 billion plus turnover, where from a sudden the decision making process were much longer than it was during the, I would say the ramp up and the project phase. So I was getting into more into a day to day kind of routine job and I felt it was time to take the new challenge. Johnson Couture is always a great multinational company, American company. And I think that that was at that time the right move to pursue my career.

And your role itself, you weren't at the central treasury team that was based in Belgium. You were actually out in the business and working as a sort of central treasurer, if you like, senior manager treasurer, where the businesses were coming to you, which was. So it was a bit of a different role to just sort of day to day corporate treasury and maybe operational Treasury. This was operational, this was consultancy, this was advising the business. How did you, you made that transition? But why was that great to you? Because it was a great position at the time as well.

Yeah, it was a great position and it was the right fit at that time and the right next move. So as you just mentioned to you, yeah, I want to go out to the business, I want to learn more and to learn also outside the treasury area. So that was my primary focus and obviously that was a different job, right? I mean here you're a consultant, so you're not sitting in your ivory tower, but you're on the field. You're speaking with the business people. So you have to build up a great network. Obviously that's the strength of your role and it's how you are successful in your job is having the right and a big network. Understanding the business. I mean again, I mean, you need to know, I mean how at that time our car seat is being built right from raw material to the finish. Good. So you have to do to understand the business, you have to understand how our seat is engineered, you have to understand how procurement is operating. I mean, what is the relationship we have with our customers? So you have to have a good understanding of the business. And that was also something that was also very interesting to me. I mean I'm a treasurer. I believe I'm a born Treasury, I'm certainly retired as a treasurer, but I'm also very curious and I'm also very interested into technical design, into production design. So he helped me to get a better understanding of the business but also realizing that as a treasurer you can only do a good job if you do understand the business.

How did you then? Because Treasury, a lot of the time can be operating a system where a lot of finance money is swept into treasury, treasury manages it and everything else. But you were very much, as you say on the front line and things. But how did you convince the different business partners, the different parts of the subgroups and things like that, subsidiary groups to actually pick up the phone and call you. How did you convince them that you were the person that could help them? What was the process you went through to. Because there'll be other, again, other listeners who are in a similar situation going oh yeah, I need to do that and getting them on side. What was the process you went through there?

Yeah, before one of the mistakes you may do is basically, hey, I'm a treasurer and I have the mandate from the CFO to manage risk, to manage cash. So no, I mean that doesn't help you and it will not allow you to go through and have a good collaboration and buy in from the business. So now you have to go there on a consultancy on collaboration basis and you have to also prove yourself to prove yourself that you are adding value, that you through your support and consulting can minimize the impact on financial risk on their EBIT and operating margin. So you have to prove yourself that you are adding value to the organization and actually you are. So it's really a matter of doing a good job and, and demonstrated that you can help, that you are not only someone from corporate, they're just there to provide Governance and request for reporting and dictating basically business, what they have to do, you really have to build up strong collaborations with them. So that's one of the key things I'm taking out of that experience. So get out of your corporate ivory tower and go into the business and make sure you build up a good collaboration with the business.

You help those guys and then you. So you started 2010 and you made then the progression within that role and then through to the spin off and it became adyen and things perhaps just give us a quick run through because you went for senior manager Director treasury at Johnson Controls but then became the Emir treasurer. Give us a quick whistle stop tour of that, just overview because I wanted to sort of get into a bit more about your future, your current role and the future of things. But give us a quick talk through how it evolved over the, you know, what was nine, nine very successful years.

Yeah, it was, yeah, starting as a manager, senior manager in business advisory role. So I was advising basically the automotive business unit of John's Couture within the Regent Emea. So. So again very interesting. So I was basically the interface between the business and I would say corporate treasury supporting business, identifying the risk, managing their risk. So in contact with a lot of departments. As I just mentioned, procurement, sales, engineering, tax, legal and so on and so forth are very interesting. So concurrency role then obviously I was very engaged, very interested. I grew up pretty rapidly in my role and then as things happening right, when you care, when you committed, when you deliver, I mean just opportunity comes up and I was basically I moved from a senior manager to a director September 2013 and I get some additional responsibility from a sudden. I was also involved into asset management with a couple of pension funds in Europe at Johnson Controls at that time. So I moved into this area. So I got a direct report. I had here again some management and leadership role to play. So that was, I would say, the natural EVOL within my role. I didn't change a lot. I would say my job profile. I just got some additional responsibilities, a new title. It was kind of rewarding my job and my performance. Then came 2016, right. Which was an interesting year again. I mean Johnson Controls has been a great experience to me. 2016, Johnson Control decided to spin off its automotive business. So as you know, Johnson Controls was at that time a multi industrial company operating into a cooling, heating system, auto battery, but also car seating. And so they stayed one of their car seating activities. And at that time the corporate treasurer of John Scoutrolls and the assistant Treasurer at that time called me and said, hey, would you be interested in taking over the role of treasurer EMEA for the new spin off company which is called Adyen plc? And I said, oh great, I mean great opportunity. And I was very keen in accepting that new role. And then from a sudden starting July 2016, I was heading Treasury EMEA as an executive director. So again, great move, great opportunity that I actually immediately embraced at that time. Very interesting also because I mean it was a big spinoff basically in terms of turnover. I mean it was less than half of the turnover of John's Couture at that time that had been spun off. So it was a big company that was basically that has been created through the npse, a big exercise to see how processes, people, system basically have been had to be separated, duplicated on one hand side and on the other side you had to build up a new treasury team for the new code. So interesting exercise to do the spin off. Interesting to be part of a new company with kind of a startup mentality. So everybody was very excited to be on their own, be able to set up their own project processes. So it was a very exciting atmosphere in the months after the spinoff and that was basically my last experience before joining Rhineland ag. So motivation for me to, to move on from Adient Johnson Controls to Freiner was basically taking up the next step of my career. So I was at Adient basically. The treasurer for Emea and headhunter at that time was not you, Mike.

No, it's all right, I was, I.

Would have expected you, you would call me. So yeah, someone else called me. It's a German headhunter. Hey, I've got a good job for you. Group treasurer at Finance and say, oh, why not? And I started a discussion like that and actually the job was very interesting. Location was great also because I'm based now in Cologne, which is the city I'm living in and is now for me taking up the next gear, which is basically being the group treasurer of a multinational company, as you just mentioned at the beginning, I think one of the top 10 testing and certification company worldwide. So it's a new, a new chapter that just started a couple of months ago.

And then with the group itself, what are the challenges for Treasury? Because when we spoke before you said that you've been brought at a time when there is a sort of cultural change within the corporate structure and you're sort of changing, evolving the business thing and making yourself fit for the future. Talk us through that a little bit and the positive ethos that that's bringing with it.

Yeah, basically TUV Rheinland started maybe three years ago were a transformation exercise where it was all about centraliz functions, optimizing processes, moving functions into low cost country. So it's all about becoming more efficient, reducing cost and increasing operating margin. So the group has started three years ago, a couple of initiatives and basically I've been hired to bring the treasury function within TUV Rheinland into the next step where where today treasury is managed pretty much decentrally with exception maybe towards cash and liquidity management. But it's basically setting up a new treasury role and setting up a Treasury Department comparable to I would say Fortune 500 companies. So that's where 2 Friday is now what 2 Freightline is heading to. Very exciting to me because I got the chance to set up the right Treasury Department with the right processes and with the right systems. So I got a lot of freedom in my and I'm looking forward to this exciting time ahead of me and.

With the looking to that future, where do you see sort of you talk about some of the systems coming through and that's being a big key feature of your experience if you like, what do you want to do? Do you want to get everything into system straight through processes? Do you see that as the future or I talk to people about automation and things and the summary of a lot of that conversation is yes, there's all these bots, yes, there's AI, but they're not actually replaceable, they're just making. I think treasury jobs are a lot more interesting.

I mean there are two elements from my perspective. First element is really the process and technology element and that's something obviously the interesting part of the treasury role and that's where I'm going to focus on. So it's typically in terms of cash and liquidity management, but also in terms of risk management, centralizing all these areas to the center through a system, through automation, through standard processes, but also in terms of payments and collections, setting the right policies and the right standards also for payments and collections, both being supported by technology and by standardization. So that's the first part and this is something I'll be focusing on. 2 Friday today has a couple of systems in place. They have Enoscache from SAP, they have CIPCO from slg, they have a couple of other applications. So they do have a couple of applications but. But these applications do not communicate to each other. These applications are not being deployed worldwide and these applications do not communicate to each other very well. So there will be a focus on that. The other focus is, I would say or the other aspect of the treasury wall is basically focusing on corporate finance and business support aspect, which is still at, I would say an early stage here. So when we speak about capital structure, capital location, bank relationship. So this will be the area be focusing on supporting the CFOs but also be focusing on not only to the external world, but also to the internal world, to the intel world. At2Finance is enforcing these consultancy and business support role so that these are the key area focusing side. So you have on one hand side, I would say the process and technology side. But also on the other side is, I would call them the corporate finance and business support side.

And management is obviously and leadership as we talked about there, you've managed these various teams in these roles. You're into this new team, as it were, and everything else what you like as a boss. What are your. We've talked about your keys to leadership success. But how do you see yourself each day? I mean remember they might be listening to this podcast at a later stage, but what would you say is your. How do you coach those guys and how do you perhaps recruit them? When you're looking at people, what is it you're looking for?

Maybe the first word is don't be afraid of hiring someone that is potentially better than you are. So that may be one of the first or key aspect when you're hiring people you have to look at. The second aspect is also diversity. Do not hire people like you. I mean you, your team. I mean you're stronger if you have the diversity right in your team. So you have to have people that have different strengths that are complementary. And the more eyes look into one aspect, the more angles, the better it is. Okay, so I think that would be from my perspective, the two aspects that I'd be focusing on, I'm looking maybe the third one. I'm looking for someone who is authentic. So don't try to play role or play the role of a person you're not right? Be authentic, be yourself. That also very, very important. Obviously when doing an interview, you should not be focusing on your weakness. You'd be focusing on your strengths, but also be. It's okay also to admit you have some weaknesses. So be yourself with your strengths, but also with your weaknesses. I mean they would be the three main area I'd be focusing on as a manager and a recruiter.

And as we approach the end of today's show, as we always do and what we will do is put Julian's LinkedIn profile in the show notes. So if it's useful to be as part of his network and he feels the same, then feel free to connect with Julian on, as I say from the show notes. But the one question I ask everyone at the end of each show as a summary sort of point is they look back at your profile and they say, do you know what, what a great career. You know, okay, you can keep up with your music career, but you decided that treasury was right for you, which and treasury is very grateful to have you. But joking aside, you actually think, right, I've come up from that finance degree, come up into treasury, became the treasurer Adyen, then became now this most recent role as group treasurer at TUV and things if someone else says, actually that's the sort of route I want to take, I see treasury as that being of interest. What would be the one piece of summary advice that we give to the listeners? I said whatever level they might be to say, yeah, this is what you need to do to have a very similar career. What would you say?

I would say don't be too much pushy work before you run. So you should not force your career. Obviously you may have a career path and you might, but don't force it. That has to be natural. So you need to focus on your job, care about your job, care about your colleagues, do a good job, deliver what you should supposed to deliver and the opportunity will naturally come to you. So if you committed, if you're curious, if you engage, you see opportunity coming up. Okay. And when opportunity comes up, just take them. So that would be my advice, don't be pushy, don't be too rushed. Opportunity will come up naturally.

Excellent piece of final advice for today's show. So be curious, take your time, it's going to come to you as well. But when it does come to you, make sure to recognize and take that opportunity. I think we'll put some of those maybe as bullet points as well. Julian, as always it's been great to catch up with you and thank you very much for your time today. Look forward to hopefully catching up with you when I'm next day in Germany or you may be passing through London. So it'd be great to see you. All that remains me is say thank you very much for your time today. Many thanks.

Thank you, Mike. It was a pleasure.