How to Become a Group Treasurer with John Fulton

Foreign.

Welcome to this week's Treasury Career Corner podcast, where I interview treasury professionals about their treasury careers. Each and every week I talk to treasurers about how they've built their careers, where they are now, where they see both themselves and the treasury profession. Going to next this week's show, delighted to be joined by John Fulton, very old friend, very early placement of mine, years ago, ici. Yeah, when ICI was around. And John himself, he's got an amazing track record. He's got 20 plus years in treasury finance, some really interesting companies. He's worked for some really challenging environments as well, and I think he's come through it despite being a New Zealander. We won't talk rugby, let's just avoid the rugby, let's move on. But joking aside, I mean, John has some great stuff to talk through, but as we were just talking before the show, John's got a different kind of background. Not just straight up Oxford, Cambridge, Bournemouth, way through. John, I'll let you kick it off because I think you've got some great stuff to share with the people listening today. Over to you, sir. How did you first ever discover maybe finance, treasury, the lot, Uni, Take us back.

Sure, Mike, thanks. It's a real pleasure to be on your show and I look forward to the questions that are going to come up. Look, to me, the key to treasury has been, it's been about passion and determination and wanting to get ahead in this profession. I've been very fortunate on my feet with treasury and have loved every step of the way. It's taken me on a wild goose chase around the world and all sorts of fantastic roles. I've worked with companies such as Coca Cola, Hellenic, ici, Cadbury and then doing a number of stints within the private equity circles, moving into more CFO type roles. So it's been a wonderful ride. How did I get into it? I'll perhaps just sort of take you through how I got into finance. Right from the beginning, which was at the age of 11 or 12, I developed a very healthy desire to get invested into the stock market and just understanding how it worked was just fascinating. And I was fascinated by markets and have been all the way through my life. That's the underlying ethos of treasury is financial markets and managing risk, et cetera, et cetera. So I used to came off a farm, we had a very successful dairy farm in New Zealand and I worked hard, earned money, put it into the stock market, learned what it was all about, and every holiday, if I wasn't working, I'd be heading into the city and visiting the stock market and just watching the live open cry trading going on and it was just fascinating. And ever since then I've just continued to understand markets in different ways and how they operate and seeing them expand into different areas and different techniques has been something that's been, it's really fascinated me. And I think you've got to have something that really fascinates you and you want to understand more, more about it and that kind of keeps you moving. You do your personal investments, you manage company's investments, you manage company's borrowings, currency risk, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. Once you start, it's very difficult to stop. And I think that's kind of the genesis of treasury having a real passion and desire to really understand markets. If you haven't got it, don't do it because you're going to waste your time. So it kicked off in those early days. I moved into finance initially. My first job after leaving school was working for a stock stockbroker as a junior. It was only 7,000 bucks a year, it was nothing, but it was, it got me into it, it got me down onto the trading floor to see what was going on and I absolutely loved it and hopefully one day would visit Wall street and et cetera, et cetera. Then came the 87 crash and I moved around a bit and something happened. I'm still to this day not sure what it was, it felt like a dream or something, but something came up with the word treasury. And I looked into it further and kind of thought about the treasury function or the treasury of governments and corporates and all the rest of it. And I was just a young buck then. I didn't really know too much about it anyway, dug into it, had a good look and was just, wow, this is amazing. There is just so much you can look at, look into. And a job was advertised for a company called Lion Nathan which was at the time a fairly small brewer in New Zealand. And I took on a role there as treasury assistant and then became a Treasury dealer and accountant back in 92. I cut my teeth in Treasury. I worked like a dog. I would get to work early, I would finish late, I would make sure everything was finished. I made a few cock ups here and there, but I always wanted to understand why and how and would get the end result and the treasurer cut me a bit of slack to do a bit of trading here and there with a very small amount which was just absolutely amazing for a young buck. And I Basically cut my teeth in treasury with Lion Nathan. We went on to acquire a company in Australia. Some of you might know heard of Alan Bomb Bomb Brewing. It was twice the size of iron, Nathan. We engineered the most amazing LBO with all sorts of debt structures I've never heard of and huge amounts of currency risk. We went on to build the largest brewery in China. I had to manage all the currency risk of that, which again, all these new experiences that I was introduced to, it was just like. It just never stopped. And it was fascinating. And to be working for a brewing company too, which is always the life of the party. So it was. It was good fun. So I had, you know, I was doing. I was just the cat that licked the cream. I then wanted to utilize that experience and I would recommend this to anyone going and working and trying to sell your skills as a Treasury advisor. It was. It was great fun. I had to. I worked for a Treasury advisory company called Bancorp and had to learn the art of selling skills and getting fees for it and providing treasury advice to companies all around New Zealand. And I stayed there for two years and really loved that role because you got to see different companies in different lights. I had five years of line, Nathan. I then had two years with this company called Bancorp. And there would be a variety of different companies, exporters, importers, education institutions, government institutions, etcetera, all with different types of exposures. And it was like in the candy store in terms of all these different issues. And it was never a dull day. That was, you know, a great setup and a good way to utilize an experience base to move on to the next thing. And that was getting married. And then my wife said, luckily she was of Irish descent. So we decided to head over to the uk and that's when I bumped into you, Mike, and you. Yeah, you talked me into joining ici, which I have absolutely loved. And it was a. It was a fascinating role.

I was gonna say, for those people that don't understand, maybe can again. You and I know ICI is well known from, you know, some of the more recent guys, more junior guys, IC who perhaps explain who they are as well. Just. I know it sounds crazy.

Ici, Imperial Chemical Industries. I think at one stage, one of the largest companies in the world, possibly it was a UK bellwether. They did industrial chemicals. I joined at a time that they were going through quite a revolution. U turn they were moving from industrial chemicals to commodity chemicals into specialty chemicals. And they paid Goldman Sachs a lot of money for that and sold all they Got rid of all their businesses and bought a whole lot of new businesses. And that was a fascinating transition. More importantly, around the people. I was this Kiwi that had just sort of jumped off the boat in the UK and I've never been overseas before. So London was my first stop and it was like, oh my God, it was amazing. And then I worked for the treasurer who. He was an amazing interviewer. He was a mentor of mine for many years and I still speak to him. He's got the same birth date as me. His name's Dr. Chris Valens and he was fascinating. He would, you didn't have to say too much because he loved talking. He was one of these guys that was just fascinating to listen to. And he was a lifer with ici. He was, he trained as a chemist and then converted into an accountant. ICI paid for all of this, did the conversion and he rose to be the group treasurer for ici. And he would send me off on all sorts of different projects and the most fascinating one was to go over to the States and do accounts receivable asset backed securitizations, which I've never done before. But it was all about project management. And Chris would tell you everything you needed to know and you had to write notes like, you know, tomorrow. But he trained you and that was amazing to have a boss that gave you the time. If you didn't know something, he would sit with you and he would train you. Yeah. And he would come down to my level. I wasn't, I wasn't, I'm not a very intelligent guy. This guy was PhDs and he had a bunch of financial engineering PhDs working under him who are my, so to speak, equivalents. But you know, these treasury managers were, you know, like rocket scientists and the little old Kiwi. You know, coming into this, it was, it was just fascinating and, you know, the discussions and conversations we used to have as a team, you know, and he would always look after me and make sure that, you know, I wasn't left behind. And, you know, there's always a bit of fun and a bit of banter and, you know, being a Kiwi, the English are always trying to take you on and challenge you in some sort of way. So it was cool, it was about fun. And he managed to create that team and that team environment, which was fascinating. So anyway, ITI was good. I moved on to work for a Coca Cola Hellenic that we moved out to. Greece was a kind of a complicated company, but it was fascinating because we had developed emerging, established Countries throughout Central and east in Europe, 27 countries. It was just after the wall had come down. So a lot of these Eastern European countries were coming over into Western financial processes, which was quite challenging. I remember being in Croatia and I mean this sort of stuff, they had these barters where you would trade off barters. So anyone trading with Coca Cola Hellenic had the ability to trade off that trading position. So you had to break down these sorts of complexities and bring them into modern cash management. Going into some really far flung places, into Armenia and Mold and Russia and the Baltics. It was amazing. We went on to do some amazing transactions at Kokolenik. Probably one of the most famous ones that I can recall was in terms of corporate treasury was we did an inaugural US bond issue. Greek family that had a substantial shareholding in the company wanted a very substantial dividend paid to them. So we had to go and find a whole lot of money. And we shot over to the States with Bill Douglas, my cfo. And he was, he had been in Coca Cola Hellenic for quite a few years. Real Coke person through and through. Coke, diet, Diet Coke for breakfast every morning. Just love this stuff. And anyway, so we punched out this roadshow like there was no tomorrow. Huge bond issue, all went really well and we were just high fives and the bankers were loving it because it was just a fantastic deal. And probably the highlight was at the very end, Credit Suisse came out. Kevin Roche came up to me and said, John, I've got a bit of a special idea for you. I said, what's that? And he says, do you want to go down to the floor of the New York Stock Exchange? And that was kind of, you know, the coolest thing that's happened to me yet. And there's been lots of things that have happened, but it's like a life, like a lifelong dream since near the age of 12, to go through all this wonderful career and all the rest of it and then to go down onto the, hello, New York Stock Exchange and meet the traders and Coco Hellenics trader and all this sort of stuff and just to see everything going on. I was so fortunate because it was just before everything went to electronic trading. So it was, it was amazing. After Coke Ops, move along Coke. I was asked to join Cadbury. I worked for a high performing CFO called Ken Hannah who was phenomenal. He asked me to do a whole lot of stuff. It was there for a very short period of time. I was then pretty much a mate of mine who I did a bit of triathlon with. He worked for a distressed debt fund, private equity called Ashmore. And he got me interested in coming across the States and initially I was just not interested in. And he was like, no, John, you've got to come over and have a look at this. This is going to be really phenomenal. I said, brent, I'm really comfortable. I love Cadbury. It's great. Everything's done for me and it's beautiful and there's no risk and all the rest. He said, no, no, John, come and have a look anyway. I said, okay. What is it, Brent? He said, okay, I'm going to put myself in. We're buying Enron. I was like, enron, you know, this company had just gone bust majorly. It dragged the whole of America down. It was just a nightmare. And anyway, he talked me through it. He said, john, I want you to come over and be my cfo. I was like, what? I'm a treasurer, I'll listen to you, Brent. He said, I need someone with really solid treasury experience. This was my introduction to private equity and dealing with distressed debt guys and prop desks and really nasty people that want to do things to companies. And I was a little bit naive, but got to very quickly understand what it was all about. Fell in love with the concept and the idea. He paid me a whole lot of money and said, come over to Houston. I just dragged the family out and said, we're going. And we went. We didn't even go for a look, see, we just went straight to Houston. We landed. Brent and I were the only two people who were the only show in town on that. We bought Enron, all those companies out of bankruptcy. The beautiful infrastructure assets, they were all gas pipelines, gas distribution outlets, power stations, power distribution networks all around in the emerging market countries, so nothing in the United States. So I had to quickly pick up on a bit of Spanish and then a bit of Polish and a bit of Turkish and a bit of everything to get familiar with these assets. It was a whole co structure. We had a lot of debt. I'd never worked in High yield. The first thing he got me to do was to raise a 300 million reverse Dutch auction pick issue, which if you know what those are about, that's quite a complex ask in terms of what you've got to achieve and you're dealing with some very prickly types of investors. Anyway, we punched this thing out, we paid 13% coupon and we were not. I've been used to talking in basis points and thinking five basis points. I'm Looking like a hero. We cut this thing by 3% just in one phone call and punched it out, moved the coupon from 15 down to 12%. That was my first deal that I did with Ashmore Energy. And then we went on to. We had a whole lot of cash. Brent was acquisitive. He wanted to buy more companies. And basically, in a nutshell, we took a company from half a billion EBITDA, we sold it four years later for 1.2 billion of EBITDA. So we had doubled the size of EBITDA roughly, and with a very healthy multiple. And it was a breakup of all those assets and sold to strategic shareholders, strategic purchases. We hit it off. It was a very interesting four years. We got through the financial crisis, which was a real challenge. It was a whole CO structure. So you're trying to drag cash up out of, you know, some far flung places. You had a lot of tax issues, a lot of money spent with advisors, as well as a highly acquisitive CEO who just wanted to keep buying companies. So it was never a standstill. It was probably the busiest role I've ever done and absolutely fascinating. So I finished with that company, Mike, around 2011, and then went off and did my own thing. I wanted to take some time out and then I established my own company. I went into this, did some CFO consulting work and was working with private equity, a couple of funds. And they would send me off to places like Mexico, Mexico City, and to do some work with the cfo preparing companies for capital market activities. But it was, it was really fascinating. I would love to get back into something like that again at some stage. And then sitting in Dominican Republic, I got a call from a bunch of Chinese guys, Spencer Stewart, where said, look, John, we found this company we think that you should be looking at. I was not even interested in looking at working for a company. And my wife kind of looked at me and it was like, what, are you mad? Or something? And this job would take me out to Hong Kong and also to New Zealand and been away from New Zealand for a long time. And anyway, so we got into it. I took the role. They came at me in September 2014, I think it was. And I took the job in the 15th of January and spent literally 3 weeks in Hong Kong, 3 weeks in Auckland, 3 weeks in Hong Kong, 3 Weeks in London and just traveling constantly, constantly, constantly. And it just about killed us. So the wife said, let's move out to Auckland. So we did that. And it was interesting because it just brought to your Attention how big global finance is when you're not in the middle of it. And when you look at the time I spent in New York, all the time with the energy company and with Coke and with Cadbury, you'd be buzzing into London, into New York, into Europe, you'd be doing roadshows and this and that, and seeing companies, seeing how the business worked and you'd be right in the middle of everything. That was really stimulating and challenging stuff I found. Shucks. I'm based in Auckland, New Zealand, which is a lovely place, but it's just not a huge amount going on there and I love the place and hopefully we'll head back at some stage, but we just had to break out. So I finished up 3 in May of last year and decided to get back into the big smoky again, where it's all happening, and I'm very thankful for that. So it's got me back to where I am today and I've had a couple of interim roles, which I've loved doing, but it's been a great 20 years abroad and prior to that, it was a good seven or eight years in New Zealand. And I thank my lucky stars that I fell on to treasury as a profession and then more importantly, moved into CFO roles, which has allowed me to now look at treasury roles and CFO roles through the eyes of a treasurer or cfo and to see what. You know. I look at things differently. I think then, too.

Well, that's what I was going to. Sorry, I'm going to interrupt there, and that's what I was going to ask earlier, and you were in nice flow, so I left you alone. But what do you think, being a treasurer, what sort of tool. What's it giving you for your toolkit? What? The way you look at it, because you've done CFO ship now as well, you've also done the sort of treasureship, you know, but. But taking both of those, what does it give you?

I think what it gives you is it gives you a little bit more discipline around risk assessment and that's. I mean, I would love to have been an engineer. We talked jokingly before the call about, you should have been lawyers. The only ones that have done well out of the last 20 years. An engineer would have been fascinating. And I've got an engineering family background and I'm kind of the black sheep here because I've went off and did a role in finance, whereas they're all, you know, farmers and engineers and they're like breaking stuff and putting it back Together again and all that. But that's what I'd like to do too. I like to understand how things work and more importantly what happens, what if. And I'm always working for the plan for the worst and hope for the best. And that's kind of, that's the ethos you get as a result of being a treasurer. You get to risk assess all different aspects of the company. Some stuff is not part of your remit but you still stick your nose in and you know, put your 10 cents worth in. But you'd like to understand it in the what of scenarios and how do you mitigate that and either insure it against it or buy protection or develop operational procedures around it that will mitigate the risk. But that's where it's at. And I think, you know, in this environment today, you know, with COVID and all the rest of it, I went back and had a look at Coca Lennox treasury policy. I was just poking through their website and I'll have a look at that, that'd be quite interesting. And it was the same policy I wrote 15 years ago and it's the same stuff in there and talking about financial headroom and this and that and forward looking projected EBITDA and how much cash you need to have on hand to manage in a financial downside scenario, contamination scares or whatever. And I think in this Covid situation today, being a treasurer has actually taught me and I guess a lot of people that are in the profession stuff that you're prepared for. And Covid's actually been something that I think is shocks. This is Treasury 101. You're preparing for the worst and hopefully a better scenario will take place. But it does give you the ability to look at things in a different way. And sometimes you can't be criticized for being bored or anything. People do listen to you. If you come up and say, look, hold on a minute, what about this, what about this, what about this? What is our plan if this happens? Going through that decision matrix on what to do or risk matrix on what to do is something that becomes ingrained in you as a result of working in the treasury profession. And I actually thank Chris Balance a lot for ingraining that in me. Working for the brewing company, that wasn't so much, it was a bit more sort of gung ho kiwi stuff. But when you work for companies like ICI and Coca Cola, things get done properly and you've got to do things sensibly. You've got to think things through and look at the Potential outcomes. And I think at ici, I work with some great guys, they're fabulous. And they would just see it in a whole different light and they would want to price it up and do this and do that and calculate how they could disintermediate the banks and do it more effectively. And it was like, my God, when we stop here. But the whole point being is that those big companies, they do distill very good qualities in you. And for treasury, that's what you do get, I think, working for a big company. There are some lovely big corporates out there. And I'm sure the treasury profession's been done well with as a result of these companies and they're preparing you and helping you to get trained properly. And the treasury profession as well is also, it's got very good training bits around it which help you prepare. But I do think for a cfo, having been a treasurer, you can either be a CFO and being a controller or an accountant or whatever, I think I make it very clear when I'm talking to people, I'm not a CFO that's come through knowing all the accounting pronouncements under ifrs or whatever. I'm just no interest in making that my specialty. I'm more wanting to focus on the market risks and risks to the business and risk to revenue and the cost base and commodity risk and credit risk and all that good stuff, which bigger the company, the more interesting the risks. But even with the smaller ones, you still got the same practices. It's just scale.

And I know that throughout this time, throughout your career, you managed and recruited teams and things like that. And the people aspects is massive with you just going into that, you know, maybe kicking off of that, obviously, you know, hosting the show, we sometimes dip in on it and, you know, we don't always go on the people aspect so much. But when you're recruiting people, for instance, what are you focusing on? Okay, you know, specific, different roles may vary and say, yeah, treasury control, you're looking more accounting, you know, treasury ops, you're looking more front office dealing. But aside from that, what are the sort of secrets to your recruitment plan? Or what are you looking at sometimes and saying, actually, this is, you know, something I look for, or, you know, there's always one thing I look for in people.

Mike, that's a really good question. You know, I'm a passionate person, I'm a lot of determination, not an intelligent person. I just, just tend to work well with people and if they share similar sorts of traits in terms of determination, passion, if they're a lot more intelligent than me or they're hard working, they've done the hard graph. That's what really stands out. You can be an experienced practitioner or an enthusiastic amateur. It depends what you're recruiting for. And in some roles you're going to need that experienced practitioner. You know, you need people who are seasoned, they've seen the knocks, and those are the sorts you want in the seat to save your bacon when things go wrong. But you also want a healthy mix of enthusiastic amateurs who are coming up through the rungs and want to work hard. And working hard is the key. I do get concerned these days around work and effort. And are people really working that hard? I remember in my early treasury days, I worked like a dog and I loved it. You know, it was from doing bank RECs to managing FX positions overnight and reconciling this and that. And I was really into it, but I worked really hard and worked long hours and didn't complain. I just got on with it. And that may have been as a result of working for my father and on the farm and all the rest of it. And we did work hard and it could be a healthy mix of that, I don't know. But I do look for people's work attitudes and they've got to demonstrate there that they've done something or a number of projects where they've really had to work out. And I can work out very quickly whether it's spinning bullshit or not, and you can query them and you can question them, but I do maintain that you've got to demonstrate that you've got that that's hard working card in your pack and that you're willing to play that at any stage without question. And then I think the other item too, which, which is interesting is I think you've got to hang your hat on something like they've got to have had an interest or a challenge that makes you different. And it's something that, you know, whether you've done a, you know, an Ironman triathlon or you've climbed Mount Everest or you've done something that, that is going to make you an interesting, more interesting person. Stand up from the crowd, you can talk confidently about it, you can talk around, how did you get to that, how did you set yourself up for that? Or, you know, were there failures, were there problems and how did you address it? And. And I think if you've got something like that that you can hang your hat on, then you are going to stand out because you're going to demonstrate that you' energy or the seeing the light somewhere that you wanted to get hold of it. But it's important I think that you've got to demonstrate you've not just had your nose in books. You've got to have done something called a sporting conquest or some sort of personal conquest or just something that you can say look rounded. Yep, yep, yep.

Yeah, you're looking for that people. But then as you and you've seen this, you know, you recently, you sort of were an interim treasurer for PE backed, you know, carbon and things like that and you set up a team and everything else as you blended that team and you know, were there things in that that you saw this is going forward people should be thinking about that themselves or you know, the coaching you give me to those guys. What was that sort of like?

That was actually quite an interesting exercise that one. They. They wanted a team on board as soon as possible. We're talking about Kanta where they Bain was Bain Capital was acquiring Cantor was a carve out of WPP. It was a 4.5 billion size transaction. It was massive and spread out all over the world. It was really complex. They had no one in Treasury. We were taking over the treasury function from WPP's treasury who had a significant size treasury operation globally. So it was all about very quickly they brought forth the closing date from Q1 to Christmas and it was to the pumps. We had to do a lot and it was complex. We made the call very quickly in terms of the structure and what was needed in order to take it over from WPP and make sure there were no cataclysmic issues on day one that would cause the deal to not close. And we did love at the close. But I think the key was we needed experienced practitioners. You couldn't afford to have enthusiastic amateurs. I think at some stage subsequent you could have had some people coming through to learn more about off these experienced interims. But I decided at that point it was time to get experience on board and managed to get a team very quickly on board that we all worked well and got the deal through close and pretty much handed it over and off we went. So it was a very quick process. But I think to answer your question, it was you needed the experience, you needed to call on people who knew the market, who was out there, what was going on, sorts of price that it was necessary to pay and we just cracked on and got on with it.

And future wise, as teams develop, as treasury develops and everything else what are you seeing? You were part of that new team and stuff like that, and you're seeing new challenges, you're looking at new roles and things like that. But what are you seeing that sort of. Again, it might be when you're bringing on people, you know, oh, let's, you know, I want them to have a better grasp of systems or I want them to be better at this, or better people, managers or, you know, people that. You want people out who have thought outside the bubble, if you like, why are you doing things like that? But again, the future of treasury, you know, people are talking to me, you know, I go to the conferences, you go to conferences, you know, and they're going, oh, it's this, it's bots, it's automation, it's this. You know, there still need to be people switching them on and off, you know, there still needs to actually be people there. But, you know, when, when you're looking through, what are you seeing as coming down the line sort of thing, you know, along the conveyor belt, as it were?

Technology is obviously where things are at and proving work processes through. Through technology, speeding up the ability to see cash balances and all that good stuff, that's always going to be really important. Are you looking for individuals who have spent a good number of years with a company? I've always liked that. I like it. I think if you can demonstrate you've stayed in a Coca Cola or whatever, and you've moved around and you've been on the management training teams and you've really demonstrated that you've got dedication and you've learned and you've moved around the treasury function into different areas, that to me is just standout. I think that's still something I really look for. And coming back to London from little old New Zealand, where I've been out of this space for a few years, which was not a huge amount of time, but we're now on this advent of interims and people who move around like three months or four months or whatever. And I saw some CVs when I first got back and was looking for people while I was at Kantar, and I just couldn't quite get my head around, what value do you place in that versus someone who's worked for Biagio or whatever for five years and moved into a different role for five years. And they've shown that they've dedicated themselves for a company and they've learned and they've moved into different functions and facets of treasury and it's a Difficult one because different horses, different courses. But you know, I still think that. And there is definitely a requirement for interims and people to move around and to be able to be mobile and pick up stuff and for a short period of time and run with it and do it. If people are looking for careers and areas to move and how to improve themselves and their skills, I think in treasury you can focus on a specific area and you're going to shut the door to a whole lot of other opportunities. So moving around as much as possible into different areas and learning stuff, especially from a young age, is really important. Doing the cash management, doing the fx, doing the technology, tying it all together, doing some policy work and writing treasury policies and financial interest rate, risk management, debt management. There's a lot of stuff you can do. And I would recommend people, young people especially, that don't spend too long in one area, don't become complacent, keep challenging yourself and develop a need to know in Treasury. I really want to understand more about foreign exchange or FX risk management or derivative pricing or whatever it might be. You've got to keep looking around and looking at different areas and moving to it. And if you're with a big company, they're going to welcome that, they're going to want to train you. And I would put myself on training courses and various companies that I work for because that's what I wanted to do. I wanted to learn more about a specific area. And a lot of companies welcome development in those sorts of areas. So if you take the initiative and say, look, I've found these, a Treasury training course and something or other show in the Nelson to go in and try and get more knowledge in a certain area which you can utilize for that company. That's all good stuff. You're thinking outside the box. You're looking for areas to improve your, your development. And bosses love that, you know, absolutely love that. You know, employees, young employees especially are saying, oh, John, I want to go and, you know, do more on, you know, more about treasury management systems. And I think we can do this for the company and all the rest of it. Go and explore it, spend a few bob and get on a course and understand it, go for a flight to so and so and work out how to do it, improve your networking so you can understand more about what other companies are doing. You know, those sorts of traits of really important, especially for young people coming through. Don't become stale. I think you've got to keep changing and you know, I'm not going to say that my career has been the benchmark, but it's been fascinating and I've just been so interested in learning new stuff and being involved with people who just knew so much more than I did and learning off them. And I would go away and try and understand it and get books out and work with them. And I was working with a chap called Ian Ladd at ici and this guy was a rocket science, absolute rocket scientist, and with Excel modeling, and he would just do the most amazing Visual Basic modeling and do fantastic stuff. And he said, john, you should have a go at it. And he started to teach me a little bit of coding and I took it home and got some books out and learned how to develop a do vb. And before he knew it, I had my own budgeting model and I was doing all sorts of coding around it and all sorts of stuff. But it was just like, like, you know, you've got to have that fire in your belly. And that's what I talk about things in very simple terms. And I think you've got the fire in your belly. You're determined, you're passionate. You don't have to be the most intelligent block on town. But I think as long as you can show that you've got the Nelson, the ability to want to learn, you'll go far. And so far it's been a good ride.

So. And that sort of, as we approach the end of today's show, and we talked about it before we started today, you know, and again with John, we wanted to focus on. Focus more. Less on the technical, but more on the people aspects and some of the things that are coming through there. But more in. This could be any of those actually could be technical, could be anything. We'll put your LinkedIn profile in the show notes so you'll have that so people can connect to you if they're right to have in your network everything else. But what are the tips? You know, someone looks back across it and they say, do you know what? You know, this is a guy ICI through then Coke, as you say, and, you know, took on the Enron business and done all this different stuff and travel the world and they say, do you know, I want to do the same thing. What are the sort of top tips you might give to those people this today that they could do the same or copy?

So I don't think you could copy it, Mike, but I just don't. I mean, I went through. I had a very basic education background. I've just got myself lucky and that's probably, you know, that's one of the how to break in and succeed in finances. Yeah, there is a certain amount of luck to it. I think developing a specialty is what I've talked about. You know, finding something that you're good at and being really. Just be really good at it and develop it further. It'll make you a more interesting person, I think, you know, meet as many people in your field as possible. Learning from them, that's really important. Networking is a real challenge. Some people are really good at it, slightly more shyer. But I think you've just got to get out of your shell and network, network, network, learn from other people. That can be really helpful. I think just working hard, working really hard, working smart, be careful not to do stuff you don't need to do and is really important. The longer you spend, I think in terms of academic background, I think it matters less the longer you're out of school, I think there always is the concern, oh shucks, have I got the right qualifications and this and that and all the rest of it. The longer you spend out of it, the more you're investing into your own personal mba. And I look back and I think I've got a well qualified MBA now in treasury and CFO and that's just come through hard work and me wanting to persevering and learning from other people and experiences and getting stuff wrong and making mistakes and tripping up and all that sort of stuff, which I do all the time. But just get back on your feet and learn from your mistakes and how you're going to move forward and off you go. I think those are kind of the main ones that I'd be focused on resilience overall. I think being able to learn how to take the knocks and you know, you work for some great people, you work for some real assholes, but you've just got to get on with it and get the best out of it and think about what, what do I need to do in order to move forward? Don't become. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Amazing. Thank you, sir. I knew it'd be a cool one. And I think people just listening today on the way to and from work or you know, whatever they're doing, you know, they can, you know, they'll be scribbling notes, they'll be taking tips from yourself like that. We laugh about it but I think you wouldn't have got to that. We have and you know, congratulations on that sir and look forward to the future.

Well, I thank you and I thank you for putting me into that role back in 1999 with Imperial Chemical Industries. I mean, that was. That was one of those lucky breaks, you know, you find the right recruiter, puts you in the right role. Up you go.

And a lot of it was accident from me, so I was still like, oh, my God. Treasury. No, I remember, it was amazing. Thanks for your time today, sir. We'll put the LinkedIn connection in the show notes. So again, if you think it's great to connect up with John, please do. Amazing today, sir. Thanks for your time.

My pleasure. Thank you. Bye.