How to Build a Career as a Group Treasurer with Heather Nisbet

Hello, it's Mike Richards here from the treasury recruitment company. I hope you're enjoying the Treasury Career Corner. If you are great news, perhaps you give us a rating on itunes or wherever you consume your podcast content. This means that even more treasury professionals can benefit from finding out or by finding out about how treasurers have achieved their career goals. The link to rate our show will list at the bottom of our show notes. And please remember as well, the show itself is as much about you as it is about us. There are specific questions you want us to ask or there's feedback you want to give. Please drop me an email. My direct email is mikeresuryrecruitment.com inventibly enough. But anyway, that's enough from me. Let's get on with the show. Welcome to this week's Treasury Career Corner podcast where I interview treasury professionals about their treasury careers. Each week I talk to treasurers about how they built their careers, where they are now, and where they see both themselves and the treasury profession going to next. In this week's show I'm delighted to be joined by Heather Nisbett, the group treasurer at Global Fashion Group. Launched way back when in 2011, the Global Fashion Group, or GFG is the leading fashion and lifestyle destination in Asia, PAC, Latin America and throughout the CIS region. They connect 8,000 global local owned brands to a market of 1 billion consumers. Yet you can tell reading this making sure that I don't go wrong. But they've got a number of e commerce platforms so things like La Moda iconic again, Heather can explain that a little bit more. But basically massive brands, so 19 offices, 10 cents is all into fashion and everything else. Very, very big. They generate net merchandise value of approximately 1.2 billion euros. So big company. But Heather can explain that. Now Heather and I have known each other for a while and this is quite a successful treasurer should we say? Heather started in treasury six years ago, already a group treasurer in her back pocket. She's got a couple of things on there. First class honors degree, qualified accountant prize winner act. We'll talk about that in the coffee incident later or the red wine incident and things like that. But basically Heather, take us back to the beginning and how you first ever started in maths and then came into treasury at a later stage. Over to you.

Thanks Meg for that very kind introduction. Sure. I will walk you through my kind of CV I guess. Right. And how I kind of got into it to how I've got to be a group treasurer in six years. So I started off as A math graduate in Edinburgh and then I actually started on a graduate program at Tesco's. A great kind of learning ground for anyone, I would say in finance or in Treasury. So you basically have a multinational company. You know, it's in so many countries, it's very complex and it's a good business model as well. Right. So that's where I started. I started in property and property finance and I looked at doing my senior qualification quickly. Actually moved into treasury after a year because I was like, okay, I like accounting but it's in the past. I want to look more forward into Treasury. I landed a role as a cash manager. If you're in treasury, your bread and butter is looking after cash. So I think that's a great place to start. Mostly in front office as well. I think it's probably the sexiest part of treasury. Starting and looking after the cash positions, your investments, your CP issuances and looking at the currency exposures. And then eventually actually I got approached, actually said hey, do you want to move to Asia? And I was like, okay, sure. I was an accountancy role but as I hadn't had a massive experience in accounting, I thought okay, let's take that kind of opportunity. I said as a condition, I want to still have my pinky toe within Treasury. So I said can I take the energy hedging strategy with me? And that was on my ticket to go back as well. Right. So I had a small stint in Bangkok. Really cool place. I mean I looked after Thailand, Malaysia, Korea and the India accounts when I was out there. So the financial reporting and planning and then eventually I said listen, I think treasury is where I want to be. So I asked to go back to London and look at more of like a senior FX role.

I guess so and tell me, sorry, just tell us. So when you talked about that, so you did your. Let's actually jump right back to you. Really bright, you've got first class degree and you said to me before that you really just get maths and it's just something, it's in your blood. I think your mother's a maths teacher as well, is that right? Or lecturer?

My mom's a teacher for sure. Right. So I mean my dad as well is an engineer and I think like my family are just, you know, are very that one sided of the brain. Right. So yeah, maths I just get, you know, university was easy but you know, it's something you either get or you don't. It's like probably my downfall is, you know, when I Have to write these papers for the board or audit committee now. And I sit there like mine is all those bullet points, you know, I don't write long papers. It's very mathematically minded still, even when I'm trying to put preparations in front of anyone. But you work to your strengths and I think in treasury, if you've got the fundamentals of maths, you'll do well.

And so then how did you find out about Treasury? Because then you did your maths and things or how did it come about that you started with Tesco actually grab program. That's great. But then treasury you just heard about or why were you drawn into that? Because obviously, as I said at the beginning of the show, six years and you're a group treasurer, so you've rapidly gone through it. How did you discover Treasury?

So when I was at Tesco, so obviously I was in accounting to start off with, there was just this little ivory tower of treasury and to be honest, no one really knew what treasury actually does. Right. So I was a little bit curious and I kind of asked around and when you're on the Tesco graduate program, the treasury kind of side wasn't really a part of the program. You kind of had to fight to get in there. So it was kind of a fail into it. I think it was either I was going to go into internal audit or actual treasury and I'm very happy I went into Treasury. I have to look at audit sometimes now and then. So yes, I think like you kind of fall into treasury and I think a lot of people will say that as well. It's not something you go to university and say I want to be a treasurer. Right. I think it's something you kind of just fall upon and you get kind of stuck there. I don't think it's very hard, I think to come back out of it because it's such a fast moving, you know, it's all dynamic, your markets, your FX strategies and it's, you know, and it thinks treasury is becoming such a influential kind of department within a function. You know, if you don't have any capital, you have no business actually driving that. I mean the forefront of that is what interests me the most. You don't just look, you know, your accounting and do a business. You actually have to look at, you know, five year strategies, 10 year strategies, keeping up with technologies, the markets, the globalization, like everything like that. I mean that excites me about Treasury. That's how I kind of fell into it and never, I never came back Never look back.

And then. And you were at Tesco for three years, but in that same time you also studied and qualified as SEMA qualified accountant. Then you start in your AMCT exams alongside doing a Treasury role in the uk, transitioning to Asia Pacific, then back again. How. That sounds like you're doing 18 hour days, or maybe you were. How did you balance that? And again, you've got listeners to the show and they're going, oh, I'm thinking about doing SEMA or I'm thinking about how do I balance that off? And a lot of people say, oh, do your studies really early and you know, things, but how are you doing that and having a life? Something talk us through.

It's a good question. Semat, obviously I studied that at Tesco, but I mean, they put you through SEMAT so quickly. So a year and a half and you're done. Yes. So they, you know, and that's a good thing about Tesco, I think. If you lie on exams too long and draw them out, you're never going to, you're never going to finish them. Right. I think, you know, kind of go hard at them, especially at the start of your career, because that's when you actually have time to do it as well. Yes, I did overlap my ACTS as well. So when I was like in treasury, my first kind of placement, I was finishing my SEMA exams and I think actually I had two exams in SEMA one week and the next week I had three exams within my ACTs and it was a bit of an overlap and yet I had no life. So if you want to do that and any advice, anyone, if you want to do it, fine, but make sure you're happy to write off your social life for a month or two of that time.

Right.

I mean, I am a bit more of. I'm quite driven just to get things out the way and that's just the way I am with work and that's where I'm with my life as well. So my advice is if you're kind of just want to get it done and get it out the way, just, just condense them all together. I mean, like with my ACTs, the last block, you have four exams to do. So it's like your, your two essays and two, like, exams you'll have to do. And I just. Normally they say, like, do one at a time or do two at a time, push. I don't know, four at the same time. Yeah. Don't get me wrong, it's hard, but they all overlap. Right. So I feel like you're almost, you're studying for one exam, you're not studying for four exams. And I think it's just about technique. You know, obviously know what the actual knowledge the lecturers are teaching you. But the main thing, learn technique. You know, any exam, you know, if it's a four mark question, you know exactly where your four marks are going to be and how you're meant to tailor your answer. So I think it's technique, if you're good at that side of things and good exam technique, and then obviously don't treat them just as one exam, treat them as a big exam, I guess, and just get them out of the way.

And I've been told this story, so I'm paraphrasing, but Heather can fill in the gaps. I know that Heather also was the 2016 prize winner AMCT, and then she told me about this remarkable study aid that she'd spoken to one of the lecturers. When you got your prize, the chap asked you, I think you know, so tell us, what was your key to success? What, what was the one thing you would recommend? And you've talked there about some of the study techniques and you used a very technical study aid of Pinot Grigio. Is that the correct answer? Is that exactly what you were using to get you through? I'm not saying everyone should rely on alcohol beverages, but they, you know, there are other beers available and things, but talk us through that. How did you get through?

So basically, so I got that award, I was quite surprised about, to be honest, but when I was actually collecting my actual award at the ACT and the lecturer was like, so how did you actually manage to do it? Because obviously done four exams at the same time.

Yeah, it's amazing.

And I said, oh, through so much wine. I mean, that's not honest. Well, it's quite an honest answer, actually. So, you know, you do your study and you have a glass of wine at the end. I mean, I'm Scottish, right, so it's in my blood. So I mean, I think it's, you know, having a good balance to get you through those exams, have a glass of wine at the end. You know, you don't have to be teetotal through the whole thing, but I mean, I would say to get there, it's hard work, you need to just, you have to be committed to that timing and just get it over and done with, like I said before, and it's just exam technique.

And why were you a prize winner? What makes you. Or what did they put it down to was it just getting the top marks or just the way that you just process this stuff or, you know, because again, there'll be people listening going, wow, that's an impressive thing. But how did you achieve that?

I think it was in top marks. So, yes, it was just the average of your grades throughout. But I would say I kind of questioned a lot of things as well when I was there too. So if you've got quite a curious mind and, you know, when you're in a lecture, the lecture just recites information to you, actually just challenge that information and, you know, I make it more of like a intellectual conversation. And I think that's when you learn the most, when the sessions are more interactive, I would say as well, if you want to. I think what the best thing is is actually learning groups. So when I was studying, I had a group of four. I wouldn't say any more than four should ever meet at a time, but I used to always get them to come to my apartment, you know, and we would study together through the case studies and actually share ideas. So, you know, it's all very well having your own idea, but, you know, other people see things differently and you'll see that in teams and a Treasury function as well. So better in numbers than just doing an exam by yourself. So before you do any exam, make sure you have a good study group. Go through case studies together, bounce around a few ideas. Don't get too overprotective of your work as well. I think everything is about sharing. You want your candidates to do well as well. So I was quite fortunate. I had a really good group. It was just sharing ideas and making sure that you just learn the exam technique. I know I keep emphasizing that point. It's a very. Everyone says, oh, yeah, but I've read through material so many times. No, it's genuinely how you answer the question. And there's a formula to it as well.

Yeah.

And that's what gets you the marks.

And when I. So I. On last week's show or one of the recent shows, I spoke to Dan Ferguson, who is Royal Sun Alliance Group treasurer, and he did amct. He found a lot of that, actually. He found that was much more, you know, there was stuff to learn, it was more rote learning and there's a lot of content and he got on top of that. But then he discovered, actually, I think more when he did his mct, that it was much more case studies and much more passing around, getting much more ideas and how different treasurers would approach A problem and he said that for him was a real standout moment and really helped him. Have you thought about further studies or is that not right at the moment or what do you think?

So I think the MCT is great if you want to keep in treasury as a niche. And I think the MCT's actual syllabus has changed to quickly kind of transition you into the mct. So it's mostly case study based now, which I think is quite good, the MCT for me. So I did start it for a while and they changed the syllabus within that time as well. And I just felt it probably wasn't for me and would I do it? Probably not. I think everyone says, you know, you need to have MCT to be a group treasurer. I don't think you do. I think it's more on how you approach a role and how you back yourself. So I mean I would never take any credibility away from the mct. But for me I would rather probably do an MBA over mct.

And I agree and again we're not. That's not a negative reflection on it. I think it's just a balance really. Here at the treasury recruitment company we're very pro qualifications in certain levels and I've got treasurers I interviewed at the Treasury Career Corner Live. I had three guys on the stage, one at amct, one at MCT and had none. He had no treasury qualifications but he was an American guy. He didn't have ctp, but he had an mba, he had a couple of degrees. So it's just different studies and different ways that you go with your career sort of thing. And then you know, as we say there, so you did extremely well but at the same time you then made a career transition. And another podcast guest, Richard Gary, I recently spoke to at Informa. You went to work at Informa originally from Michelle again, Steve Long's ex boss as well. So talk us through. You then has three years at Tesco. Time for a change or what happened?

Okay, so I moved to Informa and the reason I moved to Informa was one, I heard a lot about Michelle Doby and I wanted to work for someone who I really respect. So that was the first reason I wanted to move. The second reason they were moving the treasury function from Netherlands to London. So we're basically starting from scratch from a FTSE 100 company. So that was really attractive to me. Also I got a little bit promotion on the way over, so I mean it's kind of a no brainer I guess. And I mean, I had a great time there. So I spent my first time in Risk and I was looking after the fx, the debt kind of management side of things. And I mean it was a great team as well if you're building it from scratch. But then obviously there was my colleague went on maternity leave and actually gave me a good opportunity to just step up into maternity leave kind of role as well. And that's for acting assistant group treasurer there. And that was probably the best move I've made. And the fact that Richard Gary backed me on that one as well because my experiences before then was actually just in front office. I know my trading strategies and your cash management and that side of things. Middle office moving across was such a different transition that's going to look after your cash management structures and your systems, your bank guarantees, the stuff I've never really touched and assets. You, Richard, I was like, he said, would you want to move over to that rule and cover maternity leave that. Are you sure? I mean, the only bank account I've ever opened is my own. But you know, when you get put right in the deep end, you learn the most, you either sink or swim. Right. And it's the best role that I probably have done for a short term period as well. But the biggest learning curve and you know, this is when I say to people, when they said, oh, you know, why did you move straight over to middle office? You know, you were kind of headed that department, you never had much experience. I said, listen, as a person, if you've only done say 20% of that job spec, go for it. You don't have to do 80% of it to actually be able to do the job. Treasury is a very logical, very processed as well, so you can learn all that. And one of the things I would also advise if you go into those roles is make sure you just have a good network. So when I moved across, I knew the banks I like, I knew the treasures I liked as well. And any questions, I mean, just call them up or ask them or speak to Richard or Michelle, say, what would you do? But one thing as well, when you move over to those roles and you don't know everything about it, obviously shout out when you don't know, but try be as independent as possible, don't lean too much on your bosses and try and come with strategies on your own, then obviously get approval for it. But I think it's more independence and.

Then you talk there as well. We've got again guys coming up through their careers and they're Perhaps in the middle. Middle office. Sorry, they're in the front office and they're saying, oh, a middle office move, Was it attractive to you because you could broaden out as a foundation for making the move to group treasurer? Was that deliberate or was that actually, there's an opportunity here, they'll give me a chance at it, or what was the situation?

Well, it depends what your goal in life is. If you want to be a group treasurer, you need to have front, middle and back office experience. So I know I have an accountancy background, so I can understand the back office. So that's my tip. You know, I've done my front office and that's, you know, I think the front office is a good place to start, you know, because I think it's the forefront of it. Right. Have your front office and tick that off. My gap was middle office, and that's what you can look for in your cev. If you want to be a group treasurer, you need to be able to not be a specialist in front, middle or back, but have a general understanding for you to be promoted into a group treasurer. I would say I wouldn't get too bogged down in the detail. I'd say as well, do never. Well, from my experience, don't stay in a role if you're not learning anymore. If you've just went in and you're just churning daily cash and there's not singing, all dancing, not much improvements, then it's probably time to say, actually be direct with your boss and say, this is my gap and I want to move over there. How can you make this happen? I wouldn't say there's a time on a roll, but from my experience in the same company, obviously I wouldn't say change company, but a year and a half, you'll be able to learn the role inside out. Any more than that, unless it's obviously a massive growth company or something like that. But if it's generally bread and butter, the role has not changed, then that's probably like a sense to say, okay, we're gonna next go. And the thing is, when someone else moves and the team rotates as well, and it's good to have that transparency through a team as well, that if one person is off or an annual leave or something like that, then the other person can cover. So I think it's good to mix around those roles. What I do at GFG here is that Saga's got quite a new team in, and I say to them, where's your gaps in your career? And I want them to be able to sit and do it themselves. Right. So I've got new analyst and she's never done tms. So I'm saying you can start doing the TMS side of things and I think it's sharing it around. So you know, your CV is full if you want to be a gt. But you know, some people want to be, you know, an expert in middle office and you need those people as well. So it just depends where you want.

To end up and with your role. So you were the informer. As Richard explained, the company doubled in size and lots of potential there and everything else. But this role at GFG came around. Was it the right time or what was the situation or how did this role at Global Fashion Group and perhaps again give it a little bit of a headline about what the group is, but maybe you can explain for the listeners there.

Sure. So obviously I was covering maternity leave at Informa and like I said previously, like as soon as there's nowhere to grow, that's probably a sign of you grow within the company. But then as a concrete ceiling, that's when you know it's your swift exit. Right. So just by that I decided to just start kind of looking around and Global Fashion Group came up one. It was, you know, it's a number one position. So I thought great, you know, let's get your teeth stuck into that. And it's a really exciting company so you know, you can't compare it to a Tesco Informa. You know, GFG is the best way to describe it is in emerging markets of like ASOS. Right. It's in 24 countries. And do you know what, as a treasurer, it's one of the most exciting places to go in the sense of what countries it deals with. So emerging markets as a treasurer, these countries like South America, Russia, all over Asia, these are hard countries to deal with. If you want any kind of good experience and you actually have to work through all the regulatory requirements, currency controls, everything else, then that's what I see when I come to GFG as well. It's quite a new seen new company. It's founded in 2011. However, it's on a high growth journey. So we have like growth like 27% year on year and it's all organic growth. So if you look at this company, you're saying it's like a 1.3 billion euro company as revenue size. We've tapped into the markets of only 1% of the countries that we're actually in. And the emerging market side of things, if you compare it to, let's say the US to emerging markets, the growth in E commerce has pretty. It's not capped to say it grows on 3% every year, say in the US if you look at emerging markets at 8%. So the potential of GFG to be a great company is what basically attracts me to here as well. It's decentralized, never worked in a decentralized function before. And two, it's actually building the treasury function to be robust and to support the growth story as well. So that in a nutshell is my move.

And this, as you say, it's high growth, it's entrepreneurial, it's all those different things which are a challenge for a treasurer sometimes to deal with in a positive sense because it's great fun and you're at the front end of things. What are the growth pains or what are you finding that you're helping the business do or what are you focusing on?

The most thing I've probably achieved here so far is using our economies of scale. So just now you look at four divisions that we have right now. They all do the same thing, roughly have different business models, but it's roughly the same. But it's actually consolidating that. So rather than Brazil and APAC and all these and having different banks, why don't you globalize your pricing so you don't have localized pricing anymore. So that's one thing we're kind of working on and streamlining all the cash management for the business, which you'll see huge amounts of money. The other one is on the debt side of things. So we are backed by Chinnevik and Rocket Internet mostly. And now we're looking at externally for banks to start supporting their business too. So we've actually, since I've joined, we've actually got an RCF now in place too. So we've got three banks backing us on that. And I think that's like a good message to the market of that. You know, we're coming away from our shareholders and we're starting to look, look more of a stable company and looking at Therno Banking partners to help us on our journey now. And the other things are like FX as well. We do manage the FX reasonably well in the sense that it's pretty much naturally hedged. You know, we buy in a local currency and we sell in currency. So in that side of things we're looking at. But the one thing that treasury is going to have to do going forward is Actually, we're building a robust model so to actually keep up with the growth of all the countries. So if you take Argentina, for instance, they're growing at 75% year on year. Okay, that's going to be an FX exposure at some point. We're breaking even right now, but it's actually kind of working with the business to understand that. So we're building out a currency cash flow forecast just now to make sure that going forward we can actually age the business and actually help it grow. Also with payment methods, I'm a massive advocate in technology and I think that's where treasury is going to go in the future as well. So all your operational side of things will all be automated, but the fact is that cash is not king anymore in the sense of transacting your pounds across. It's actually using your Apple pay and QR codes and all these different payment methods, especially in these countries, which are all very different. You need to keep on track of those as well. So we're making sure that we are ahead with technology in that side of things and making sure that we can keep up with the growth, actually collect the cash as well. So that's where I'm kind of leaning to just now. But as it means I've only been here seven, eight months now, so I'm surely fighting my way.

That's great. Actually, you're pre answering my questions that, you know, some weeks ago. So what's your attitude to technology and everything else? And you already bring it in. You're like, right, yeah, let's cover that off, Mike, shall we? And with, you know, with the rise or the future of everything you've touched on that there. Where do you see it? We've got the, as you say, automated payments and taking that operational side and automating all of that. But where do you then see the value add for you as a treasurer going forward? Is it out working with the businesses? It sounds like it is with Argentina and people like that. Or is it. What's your role going forward, if you.

Like, from a technology point of view? Well, that's that question. I think what's going to change is your fx. All of it's going to be. You're not going to call up your bankers and trades on the phone. Right. That's all going to be automated through platforms. Same with bonds as well in title. I'm not going to say it's going to happen right now, but just now it's quite, you know, the, the old market of going and meeting all your Bond investors, et cetera. I think that will all be automated as well and that'll be all on banking platforms. The only thing I'd say the downside is probably the relationship building on that, but you can see that already the millennials will be on their phones and they never look up. I think unfortunately that will probably be a side effect of it. The other thing is blockchain. Banks are heavily investing in blockchain right now. And I think that's not something a treasurer can ever ignore. I think as well, I think in time, I'm not saying it's going to happen in five years, but I would say in 10 years time, all our cash will be going through some type of blockchain. And that will help us with fraud, it will help us with locating our funds. I do think that technology is a key for treasurers going forward too. And what we built into a TMS for instance as well. The other side of things is like I say, the collection of cash and stuff like that. And that's kind of simple bread and butter stuff. And then the globalization point of view. So I think the country now or the world, I'd say actually it's so interconnected that you don't have to go from London, you don't have to go from New York, you don't have to anywhere like this. So the treasury as a whole is not so much have regional Treasuries, it's actually, I would say it's more of a global function now.

So where do you see it? We just talked about Argentina. And your role going forward, do you see it more of a being a consultant to the business or hand holding with those guys or what do you see your role being as a treasurer going forward? What do you see as happening?

My role as a treasurer just now is connecting with the business, understanding the business and how treasury can help the business grow and keep up with that. So when I go to the regions, my main thing is keep up with technology. So we're looking at implementing a TMS shortly and making sure that fits all countries and all scopes. The other thing is, you know, any strategy is a global strategy, not local strategies anymore. So I think it's more of a, you know, from the parental companies is to come in with these strategies and make sure they fit well with the local strategies too. But there should be more of a globalized look. The other things is, you know, just now I'm looking at like to help with the growth, the company is financing warehousing products. We've got you know, we've got a couple on the horizon and they're all automated, easy projects too. So, you know, you're working with like great, great businesses, working in tech businesses. But mostly it's to kind of streamline all the processes and make sure they're efficient as well. But I think my role itself is more is the strategy of, you know, making sure we have enough capital in place, you know, working with finance on forecasting and, you know, having those interlinks. So I wouldn't say like, you know, Treasuries is a silo by itself. I think treasury in itself is. You go into so many apartments so you make sure you're available to the commercial teams. The buyers are very good at negotiating with Calvin Klein or Hugo Boss, but from a financial point of view, give them guidance on fx. What do we want to be, what currencies want to be exposed to, what bank guarantees, if they need a parental guarantees, stuff like that, you need to aid the company with. Then from a finance perspective, it's working with their cash flow forecast. How can you. You strengthen their balance sheet as well. I think treasury is. You can go into almost any department. You go into tax and you go into intercompany side of things. How can you make it more efficient with spider diagrams over there. If you go into hr, for instance. That's another thing. Just now we're implementing a Treasury rotational program because we've got just short of 20 heads actually in Treasury GFG. They all kind of work and they're different treasury functions, but the regional treasury functions, sharing that. Just now what I'm trying to do is make sure that the guys in Zillow, Laura here in Asia can actually go to Defiti, which is in South America and actually share the knowledge of what they've got in their processes and make it a better process in general. So I think it's. That's one thing about globalization. It's not so much just about Asia or South America. I think it's about like, you know, consolidating that and making sure that everyone's on the same page.

And you mentioned there you talked about some of the people within treasury and things like that. What's your ethos? Obviously we're the treasury recruitment company company. It's what we do and we look at people all the time and the people element of things with yourself, you know, what's your. When you're recruiting as you have done and things, what are you looking for in that, that person? Again, this is for the listeners. They're thinking, oh, God, I'd love to work somewhere. But thinking, right, this is what I need to do. Do I need to study, do I need to have a great CV or what do I need to do or resume as well? We've got our US listeners, you know what, what are you looking for as a treasurer from that person coming and joining you?

So the part I look for, I think it really depends what company you're working for. Right. I'll say from GFG point of view because it's most relevant right now. So what I look for is energy. Someone who's dynamic, someone who actually likes to work in treasury, not just because they want to be there. One is energy for sure, the other one is more like an entrepreneurial spirit. So gfg, like I say, it's a growth company and you really need to build it, have an idea, come up with the idea and just execute it yourself. I think you have to be quite a self starter. I don't micromanage by any means. I mean, if you come up with an idea, you think it's great, you run with it. So I like quite an entrepreneurial spirit also. The main thing, actually I would say is culture. I think for anyone to do well in a company, you have to understand the culture of that place and if you're going to fit in, I'd say GFG is a fashion company, so you can probably imagine that the environment you're working in as well, and it's not going to be like a bank. And so corporate. There is corporate elements, of course, and there's the professionalism, but it's, you know, there's that kind of fashion vibe, it's an unusual vibe, but, you know, you need to be able to have that gap and go, I guess, and, you know, be really reactive. You're not an insurance company, right? You know, you have to react, react, react. And the retail market itself moves so quickly. You know, you have to, you know, every quarter there's a different fashion trend, right. I think is what you're going to have to have that set. The other thing is like being good with people. I mean, you can imagine here we've got South American teams, you've got the Russian teams, you've got the APAC teams and they're all very different in the way you approach things. Be able to adapt to different styles, don't force your style on someone else, you just have to adapt to their style and their culture. The other thing I would say from a qualification point of view, I Mean, qualifications are great. I mean, I'm a bit of an advocate for qualification, but it's not essential. I would always recruit people. If you seem smart and you're smart, smarter than me, then you have the job. And I think that's how I would probably put that.

I know I've got to say that that's going to be a stretch to try and be smarter than our head there because, yeah, first class degree prize winner, AMCT and Treasure within 60. That's amazing. And I think you've done extremely well, so good luck with someone to do that.

I just recruited two new people and they are smarter than me. So I want someone who wants to take my job. Right. Eventually. I'm not going to be here forever. I probably want to. Scott, if you make your job redundant to the people you've employed and you're doing a good job, you'll be protective of your job. So the guy I've just employed, he will be able to do my job one day, and that's why I employed him, because he's smart, he is accountant and he is treasury qualified as well. But I wouldn't say, I wouldn't push too much on that. I mean, experience is a lot more than that. And I think as well, I don't want to have someone who's like me either, because we would just clash. So I think it's getting that diversity in the team and making sure that, you know, I know my weaknesses so I make sure someone else can fill those weaknesses. And I actually got that off Michelle Dovey at one point. She said to me, you know, always employ people that, you know, they are better at that than you are. And I think that's when you get.

Like a really good team and with you. So, as we wrap up today's show, you know the closing question, we talked about this before and I always do. So we'll put the LinkedIn profile for Heather in the show notes. So, you know, it's a good way to maybe connect with her if it's worthwhile or, you know, if it's not, you know, she can just say, no, thank you very much. But the key thing there is we then always ask people to look back over your career history on LinkedIn or wherever it might be, and they say, actually, I'm a Treasury analyst manager. This is what I'd like to do. I'd like to, you know, emulate things. What's the one piece of advice you would give to close today? Show that to say to those people, this is what to do. And is it that stuff about, you know, some of the things you touched on or what's the one piece of killer sort of advice you give?

Quite hard to tailor it to one, I must say, but I think. Or a couple, maybe. A couple. I think the main thing is back yourself. Any role that you go into, if you don't back yourself, no one else will back you. So I think if, you know, if you want, if you think you can do that role, you go for it and people will follow you. So it's confidence is one, the other one is, like I say, don't stay in your role too long if you're not learning. If you are learning, fine, but I mean, if you're not learning anymore, you looked for the next role and you look for the gaps in your cv and the last but not least will definitely be your network. I've got loads of mentors I have a cup of tea with every, like, six weeks, every two months, and, you know, keep that going and keep in contact with old bosses as well and with your banks, with treasury, with CFOs, everyone. You need to build your network and that's pretty much where you get the best advice and any tips on career moves or within your company.

Well, great advice as always. Thank you, Heather. For today's show, I think we rocketed through there, but it's amazing what you've managed to pack into those six short years, as it were. So we're looking forward to great further things from GFG and from yourself. So thank you very much for your time and yeah, if you want to connect with Heather, we'll put the connection in the show notes and look forward to talking to you in the future. Many thanks.