How to Build a Successful Treasury Team with Sandra Ramos Alves

Foreign.

To this week's Treasury Career Corner podcast where I interview treasury professionals about their treasury careers. Each and every week I talk to treasurers about how they build their careers, where they are now, where they see both themselves and the treasury profession going to next. And a special thanks to flywire, our fantastic sponsors. If you've ever wondered whether there was a way to ease your international transaction hassles, they're the guys to talk to. If you follow the link in our show notes, you can see me talking to my mate Greg Levin, their Senior VP of Sales. I get to ask Greg about who are Flywire and how they can help you and your treasury team with your cross border payment headaches. Just follow the link to the interview in today's show notes. And now let's get on with the show. In this week's show, delighted to be joined by Sandra Ramos Alves.

Sandra.

Sandra is the Senior Vice President and Treasurer at BMS or Bristol Myers Squibb. BMS are a global biopharmaceutical company. Their mission is to discover, develop and deliver innovative medicines helping patients globally. I won't explain all of the details about the size of the company, what it's been about Treasury. I'll let Sandra do that later on in the show. What I'm going to do is I'm going to take Sandra back to the very beginning few years ago. Now take us back if you would Sandra, to how you first discovered finance, then Treasury. We're going to go through the show, we're going to talk about all these international moves. Amazing. And then later on in the show we'll talk about the future of treasury and a couple of areas you might be interested in. And the people listening today definitely are. I'll shut up now. Hand over the mic to Sandra. Sandra, over to you. Tell us how did he first ever discover finance and Treasury? Over to you.

Thank you Mike. It's a pleasure to be here with you today. So I was actually an undergrad major in accounting. So I started off my career really thinking I was going into the accounting world. I joined AT&T in August of 1995 and in September of 95 they announced trivestiture and ultimately I ended up moving over to Lucent Technologies in their Financial Leadership development program, at which point I had an opportunity to really work in several different organizations and just get a feel for finance. I worked essentially in treasury operations and in accounting. Did have the opportunity to spend a year in Guadalajara, Mexico, which was a wonderful experience. But when I came back to the US I really wanted to further my career in the accounting field and decided I wanted to take the CPA exam. And as such I needed to really spend some time internal and internal audit. So I did my two years in internal audits, supported Latin America, spent a lot of time in a lot of different countries. And while I was an internal audit, I had an opportunity to actually move to Brazil to do integration work, which was actually really interesting and challenging. I spent the two years really doing a lot of budgeting and accounting work and trying to introduce US GAAP to the Brazilian entities, as we had done to local acquisitions and we needed to merge them into our existing business in Brazil. When I was done with the opportunity there, I was coming back to New Jersey specifically, I wanted to come back home. And the opportunity in treasury presented itself. It was just, I think, really good luck. They had an opportunity for an FX manager to support Latin America. So while I did not have any experience in Treasury, I had all of the contacts in Latin America from having spent so much time there.

So let me jump in there. Just so many people discover treasury in the nice way by accident and now it's much more recognized. So this was back in just turn the century, 2000, 2001, when you made that move, Sandra, was had you heard about treasury at that stage or was it completely Treasury? What. What was the ethos?

I definitely had heard about treasury because FX was a huge topic when I worked in Brazil. Every day I would ask, I would be asked, what's the FX exposure? I didn't even know what that meant, to be honest.

You didn't calculate.

I just didn't understand it. But I heard the question all the time and I knew that we needed to provide forecasts to the treasury organization. It really wasn't until I joined treasury that I understood what it was that they were asking for and what the purpose was and what the risk is and how to manage the risk. So it's a fantastic opportunity to really step into something completely different than I was accustomed to working in. And I was working with a wonderful group of people that were very kind with their time and with their training.

Let me again, let me jump in. So I'm going to interrupt. I'm sorry to interrupt so much, but I've got to but you then so I know it's a while ago, but if you can think back to that period of time and reflecting on that, if you would for other people doing that first stepping into foreign exchange and you said they were very kind with their time, but did you actively put Your hand up or again, this is for. We get a variety of listeners to the show. Some will be brand new to treasury career, some will be very experienced. Is it about going up? Can I have a coffee with you? Or what would you suggest to those guys to do today?

Again, the listeners today, I did proactively reach out to them. I had returned to the US during challenging times for Lucent. At the time we were going through significant headcount reductions, we were selling off part of the business. There was just a lot happening and I was aggressively looking for a challenging opportunity to rotate into. And it was just luck that I happened to hear about some, someone that was leaving the organization for personal reasons. And so I reached out to the contact that I had in treasury and I asked, are there opportunities in Treasury? I would love to learn about treasury and see, well, if I could fit into the organization. And he said, as a matter of fact, my role is going to open up because I'm going to be taking on the regional treasurer role for the person that had left. So I said, great, can you please connect me with the hiring manager? And he did. And the hiring manager was Fred Shakny and you've had him on your podcast and he's brilliant. He's one of the most brilliant people I've ever worked with in Treasury. And he gave me the opportunity and it was really wonderful.

So he said, go for it. Did you then think, do you know what, treasury, that's going to be me for the next 20 years because you're global treasurer, where you are and everything else. So did you then think, wow, this is it? Or did you start to think, oh, how did it fit with you? Because then you made your next move as well into real estate hospitality to give us a walkthrough. Do you start? Oh, yeah, I'm gonna. How did it work for you at that stage, if you like.

I never in my wildest imagination thought this would be a 20 year journey, to be honest. I was still thinking, am I gonna use the seek? And so I really thought it would have. It was going to be more of a rotation and opportunity to learn a different part of the finance function. But as I said before, Lucent was really challenged and there were so many cutbacks and I really felt there were no growth opportunities at Lucent, given everything that was happening. And when you're looking for a job, sometimes the easiest next job is the role that you're currently in. So I started looking and this opportunity presented itself at Cendant and it was just a Treasury role. It was seamless. And I walked in and I got the job very quickly and did move on. And I moved into a Treasury role because that was the easiest thing for me at the time.

Cassandra, you then were Lucent, so telecoms and things. And then you went into Cendant, which is wider hospitality, real estate and everything else. And then you ended up in pharmaceutical. We've talked about you and I talked before the show about how people. It's portable. Treasury has a certain skill set so you can move between different discipline. Not disciplines, same discipline, but different industries with yourself, you move through those. What was that like for yourself? And then maybe tell us about Celgene and how you went into that role. So back to you.

I truly believe that treasury is. You can apply to any industry. So any cash management is cash management. Risk management is always risk management. The industry that you support will be different, the cash flow generation will be different. But pharma has always resonated with me because it's an industry that really makes a difference in people's lives. And with the opportunity that presented itself at celgene back in 2005, it was really a unique opportunity and I just couldn't pass up on it. At the time, I actually had an opportunity to join J and J. Well, so I had to choose between Johnson and Celgene. And some may say that I was crazy for not having gone to JJ which is this fantastic pharmaceutical, well embedded company. But I chose to go to Celgene, which at the Time was a $400 million company with 700 employees. It was one of those things that the company could have failed if our product did not get approved or it could have been a great success. Fortunately for me, it was the best decision I ever made in my career and it turned out to be the best experience of my career. We ultimately grew to be a $19 billion company. We had a unicorn and the drug that got approved. Shortly after I joined the company, I got to build an organization. We got to do so many great things and be innovative and entrepreneurial. It was just a fantastic opportunity and we were doing good for patients, so it was very fulfilling.

And did you feel that you were in treasury, you were connected to that journey? Because I again, I've talked to a number of people, talk to Kathy, she works for a hospital group way back when, and she said, look, I really feel that sometimes we're the custodians, a little bit of that for those guys. Did you feel that when you're a pharma company, I Know that big pharma sometimes gets a bad rap, but then I think past few years in particular, people have gone, whoa, we really need those guys. Did you feel you're quite connected to that, would you say?

I absolutely feel connected. We're supporting the business. We provide all of the financing for business development to further enhance our pipeline. We manage the risk, we manage the P and L risk for the corporation. It just helps to manage the credit ratings for the company. There are so many things that we do in the background that support our R and D function and our sales function. I believe that treasury is an equal part of the organization and you were.

There for a number of years. Talk us through the treasury journey, if you like. When you got there, you joined way back when in 05, but you grew that for so many years. How did treasury grow and develop as. As a function? I know there was technology, there was all this stuff and I see I've caught up with you at conferences and various other bits. But when you look back on that, did you see that? Was that the key driver or was it just treasury was continuing to grow? What. What was the sort of. If you were to reflect back on the time, what was it like?

So when I joined, there really wasn't much of a Treasury function there. There was a bank account in the us we did not have an international function. We had to build it out. There was no FX program, there was definitely no interest rate program. There was no debt, there was no credit facility. There was absolutely bare minimum there. So it was really an opportunity to look at what can we do once we get approval, once we build our international footprint. And it was just the most fantastic opportunity because we got to put in an international banking infrastructure from scratch. It wasn't easy, it was challenging, but we did it. We built an FX program. I did the first FX trade or hedge, I should say, and in December of 2005, so I still remember the actual exposure. It was an intercompany loan and there was some convincing to do to put on this hedge. So the program started after I joined and we went. It really wasn't until 2008 that we were able to put in a comprehensive cash flow hedge program. It took time to build. We had to change functional currencies of entities to be able to get the hedge accounting. We entered into a credit facility only in 2010. We did our first bond issuance in 2010. We literally did all, all firsts from 2005 through 2019. And it just continued to grow and the portfolio just grew we issued our first debt, as I said in 2010 and ultimately in 2019 when we were acquired by BMS, we had 19 and a half billion of debt. We had done well over 30 billion of business development transactions. We had done a couple of major M and A transactions. We just really turned what really wasn't a real function and we built a best in class organization.

Weird question, why bother? Why push yourself to that? I know why. We treasure recruitment company. We'd gone through it straight through processing when people do our salary survey, wanted to give them a really easy flow of doing it to make it. That was for me and for us to increase the numbers to make it. This is what I would have wanted, you know, put myself now with you guys. You're a support function, you're supporting the business globally and things like that. But you guys were pushing against. I've seen a number of the awards and things like that. Why do you think that's important to keep on? Because it's not just about profits all the time. Treasury in itself and of itself is about supporting the company. Did you just have that ethos yourself or how was that?

The culture at Celgene was just fantastic and innovative and entrepreneurial and you always were pushed to do your best and to do the right thing. And yes, part of it, a lot of it is me. I want to have a fun job and I. And I want to do the right thing and I want to deliver value and I want to deliver results. And we were just always really excited to venture into the next phase of the company. We had all worked at larger corporations before, so we knew the art of the possible and we knew we could even take it to the next step and do it better and have more fun with it. And so we had an incredible drive to really do the right thing and put the best technology in place and put the best processes and really work hard to deliver value to support the company.

And then obviously the group got acquired and there were a number of changes. We had, as we said before with Mike Bradley on the show. So we'll put a link to his great podcast, great guys, stuff like that on the show. But with yourself, a takeover can be unsteady for people, unsettling and things like that. But you've been through that, you've continued to develop your career. Any tips for people listening today if they're in a similar situation? I'm sure or they're thinking, oh, grumps were what was your ethos and how has it been since? Because obviously he's on and grown and everything else. It's your opportunity to maybe reflect on that. A few words back to you being.

In a position where you're being acquired. It can be incredibly stressful. Sometimes you have to take risks. And I feel like I've taken several risks throughout my career and one of my calculated risks was whether I wanted to stay with Bristol Myers Squibb. It was a different location. It did require a move for me and my family. But I really thought about the long game and whether there was an opportunity for me to grow. And I really felt there was a chance that I could grow to ultimately become treasurer. And it certainly played out well for me as I was incredibly successful and was able to get it and a lot quicker than I ever anticipated. But sometimes if you don't take the risks and if you don't ask for things, they don't come to fruition. So what I have learned over the last few years is you have to be vocal about what you want and you have to tell people what you want. Otherwise it just may not happen. Things don't get delivered to you on.

A platter worldwide and everything else. And maybe reflect on that a little bit if you like. How did you guys cope with pandemic? But then also, where do you see the future of Treasury? Where do you see it developing? We're not, as I say, we're not at the end of the show yet. I'll let you off soon, don't worry. But joking aside, what are you seeing? What's it been like? Where's it developing, would you say?

So what we learned through the Pandemic is that we can surpass challenges quite easily. Maybe easily is a little flippant, but we can do it. We can work really hard. We have figured out how to do it. We have learned that we need to change our ways of working. There are better, more innovative ways that could make all of our lives easier. In terms of how we do work, my focus now is on the organization, looking at our people, looking at our processes and our technology and how do we build a best in class organization with the best talent and with seamless processes and with the best technology to really take us into the next decade, if you will. It's really thinking about the future and how do we catch up to with all of the technology that's out there and how do we deliver better results.

We spoke before Sundar, delivering a session later on in the year AFP and about personal brand, but also networking. And I know that in the past you've been interviewed by various publications. Lovely Treasury Today, which we love and those guys and stuff. But one of the key things there is you've. And I was looking back at my notes, you love the power of networking, which I do as well. But then doing another session for New York and we were talking about, yeah, how do I network? I'm a Treasury professional. I'm busy enough doing my day job and Pandemic hasn't helped by really focusing just on the nuts and bolts. And now we're getting back in the offices, we're meeting people and have I got enough time in the only set number of hours a day. What tips would you give to people networking? I know you, you've seen it as about be very crucial for growing your career. But in your. Great at it. But maybe if it's someone listening today, they're not a great networker. They say they go, oh God, yeah, it's all very well for you, but you worked at it for the guys listening, guys listening today, how would you explain that to them? How do you encourage that of your team members, your peers and things? What are your sort of tips for those guys?

It's still something that I have to work very hard at. I'm an introvert, so it's actually very difficult for me. But there's lots of avenues that you can venture into, partner with your banking relationships. The bankers, the banks all have opportunities for conferences for different things. For treasury professionals, it's actually quite easy to meet other treasury professionals through the banking network. You can join the NOI Group where I've been a member of the NOI group for since 10. I've met so many FX professionals, assistant treasurers and now treasurers throughout different industries. There are opportunities out there and we have to really seize them and try our best to network. And you don't always have to network with the highest level of the organization. You don't have to feel like you need to meet all the treasurers or all the CFOs. You can start with focusing on your peers and building relationships with your peers. And the relationships will evolve.

Sandra, just a quick one there. NOI Group. Now we've had Joseph Noye way back when as one of our guests. Can you explain in your words who NOI Group are? This isn't the sales pitch for them, but yeah, you guys should join them. They're amazing, Jose is amazing. But then who they are, what they do very shortly, but also why for you in that safe environment and what they call it, Charterhouse rules or whatever it is so what that's like for you and having that safe space. Can you just maybe again for the listeners.

Sure. There's an organization that has several different subgroups that you participate in. So when I was doing FX specifically at Sagene, I joined their FX peer group. And so you would meet twice a year in person and with a group of 20 other companies or 30 and you would talk about the topics of the day. If you're having challenges, when you have questions how do you do X, Y or Z? You could ask at the meetings. You can ask through informal network through on email and people share and people are happy to share and speak with you. And they have assistant treasurer groups, they have treasurer groups, they have capital markets groups. So it's really. They have ventured out and they have every. Almost nearly every functional area within treasury. So you're able to meet peers throughout the industry and as you move on to different areas within treasury and you meet more of those people and sometimes I can give an example. A few months ago I saw an article posted on LinkedIn about something that a company Micron had done and I remembered that I know the assistant treasurer from our days in the EDX group. So I reached out to him the that had nothing to do with FX but it's. I reached out to them and said would you be willing to talk to us about what you're doing with your investments? It provides you an opportunity to build really good relationships so that you can tap into in the future.

And I don't want this to be a complete loving for NOI group but let's do it. We've already. We've started it so we'll finish it. I love the. The fact is it's sometimes frustrating because I want to know who they're talking like oh that sounds amazing. But it's all covered under confidentiality so you guys in treasury feel completely safe if that's the right word. But as well as you say functional but also there's industry groupings as well. So it's like cross functions. You have cross functions bomb. But you also have different industry groups as well. And I think that's interesting because different industries have different. But you could be talking to a competitor per se but you're not directly talking about it. But the fact is because it's not published it makes it much more comfortable. I've spoken to Joseph about it some of the other guys there and I love the work those guys do which so that's enough of those them. Let's also talk about maybe as we, we're not that far off the end of today's show, it's amazing, but as you look at the future of treasury, you come out of a very challenging period of time and life and everything else. Where do you see treasury going? I was trying to persuade Sandra earlier on in the show to say, definitely come to afp. I'll be there and we talk about this, but you've also got a day job to do, apparently. Whatever. But joking aside, where do you see it going in the next few years? What the next develops ahead of this function? You're leading IT big leader in the company. Where do you see it going to for the next level?

So I do think that technology is going to be huge and innovating on the technology front so we can streamline our processes and have time for teams to really do more analytical work. The risk management is always going to be the same. You're always going to have FX exposures or interest rate exposure that you need to manage. I don't think that some things will ever change. You're always going to have investments. It's the tools that are available and availed to us that will potentially change and hopefully improve our day to day. But you also have to have the right team and the right mindset to get there. You have to have openness to technology and to the innovation.

And just before we do wrap up for today, because I know you've got your next meetings, you're very busy with yourself and managing your team if you like, and looking at those again, not to recover all the ground we've talked about when you're coaching those junior team members, you've been there, you've been there, done it, worn the T shirt and everything else. What are you encouraging the team members to focus on? Are you saying to them you should go and get qualifications or move out the function or what are the things you think that if, if you reflect that they should be doing, would you.

Say, I guess there's multiple things. One, I spend a lot of time actually encouraging my team to speak up. So there's the folks that are really in the weeds. They're the ones that can come up with the ideas to improve our ways of working, working and changing. They know where the pain points are. It's encouraging people to speak up to top so that we can innovate and improve our ways of working. If people want to really expand their financial skill set, it is important. And Bristol Myers Squid definitely encourages movement within the organization and we do have a lot of movement and people generally move around every two years. So to the extent you don't want to be strictly a Treasury professional, I certainly encourage team members to rotate throughout finance and learn the business and learn different skill sets. And at some point they want to return to Treasury. They will always have a home and Treasury. But it is important to do, especially when you're younger and you have the ability to move laterally. It's much harder when you're a seasoned professional. For me, it's going to be a lot harder to move into a different function at my level. But when you're younger in your career, that's the time to really take the risks and to move around. And if it doesn't work out, it's okay, you just move somewhere else.

Yeah, Just keep moving. Yeah.

So don't settle, don't worry.

I love the phrase. Recently, someone said I see a few times on usual LinkedIn stuff, you can move. You're not a tree. Yeah. Okay. You're not stuck there. Yeah, Keep moving. Okay. It's under amazing conversation, then. We're going to put your LinkedIn details in the show notes. But as we've done each and every week, I thought this podcast would last maybe 10, 15 weeks. We're at episode over 200. This will probably be about episode 210 or something like that. Crazy. But as you look back and again, you and I have messed up a number of times. When you think about top tips for you, if, you know, someone had said, do study, do this, or these are the other things you've given, lots of nuggets of stuff there. But to close the show today, what are the top tips you would give to someone listening today? They're in the car and you think, oh, wow. And they. Maybe they'll get out quickly. I'll write that down. That's something they should do. What are your thoughts for the people to take away today, if you would?

I'd say based on my experience, take the risk if there's an opportunity. Usually risks pay off. Speak up, Tell people what you want out of your career, own your career. Don't expect things to be delivered to you and really just do your best, Be your authentic self. It will always come through and do the right thing. Always lead with integrity. I think that's how I try to lead my life and it's worked out quite well for me. I'm really blessed.

You've done all right. Yeah. Like we're treasurer for a farmer. Like this. No, it's fine. Just look at that. Don't Be afraid to you. Don't be afraid. Listen to speak up. There you go. Don't be afraid to both do own your own career. And actually I've got a lovely email from Sad Ra. Say you're going to get more authentic self because we're going to get into this. And I said, yeah, it's a Friday afternoon, I do feel for you, but, yeah, but be authentic and leave with integrity. Amazing pieces of advice. If anyone just took one of those, they'd be maybe half as successful as you. But if they did all of them, who knows? So, Sandra, amazing to chat. Thank you for your time. Can't wait to see you once again in real life. We'll put your LinkedIn details and show notes and just thank you very much for your time. It's been amazing to chat.

Thank you, Mike. It's a pleasure to be with you.

Lovely. Thank you. So, welcome back to the episode. You have just listened to my conversation with Sandra that I did, that was two years ago. I'm catching up with Sandra because I keep seeing her in the press and her team in particular in the press for good reasons. Don't worry, you guys have been winning lots of awards since we last spoke. There's been. You've been developing it. I know you. You and I just talked about streamlining. I just wanted to bring up the story up to date with you, Sandra, who's joining me live in video, in real life, nearly semi real life. What's been happening since you and I last spoke? You were the treasurer then, but you were then bringing lots of different things. What's happened since then?

Yeah, Mike, it's great to be here. Thanks for having me. Once again, it has been a very busy two years. We have been on a transformational journey. We have tackled every single area in the department. We've had probably a good 60 to 70 projects, some bigger, some smaller. And we have a pretty complex organizational structure with a lot of M and A. So we just closed on four transactions earlier this year. So we have a lot of integration works. We're quite busy.

So you're just talking there about streamlining? Obviously, lots of Treasuries want to streamline their operations, get FX exposures, and obviously that's a key thing. But you're doing more with less. How are you doing this? What? So that when you talked about you've done more over the past two years, do you set a set of goals? Do you think lots of other people should do the same and say this is how you got to get to or how's it come about?

So I think our overarching goal is really to have a streamlined organization that has a work life balance. So that's how I talk to my team and how are we going to get there? That means we do need to automate and we need to simplify. I was talking about our FX process. It is fully automated from an exposure identification we put in the systems. We did have some challenges because we are a smaller team. So we did have consultants helping us. We had PWC here helping us for some time, which was a great help. So now with Atlas FX and 360T fully streamlined and integrated, all of that is automated and then the confirmations are all automated. We're able to proceed and then hedge on a daily basis should we have exposures that we want to be managing on a daily basis. We've recently implemented cash optics for our cash flow forecasting. Also looking to automate our forecasting given that we have been very acquisitive. We just closed on four acquisitions in Q1 of this year. It's really important for us to manage our cash flows and ensure that we're meeting our rating agency targets of delevering and ensuring that we have sufficient cash flow. So having a really good handle on our cash is really important and our cash position. But we've been able to essentially eliminate nine different Excel models that everyone was pulling data from disparate systems and now everything is centralized and we're able to use one source of truth for the data and everything is aligned. We're able to fund our entities much more efficiently than we were then. When we look at our cash management operations, we have gone through an RFP of our US cash management business and our European cash management business and we've realized that there's opportunities to improve. Aside from the cost savings, there are some opportunities for us to improve our processes. So we are looking at our lockbox business and migrating away and centralizing everything and we're going to be looking at putting in multi currency notional pooling in Europe which will help us really with central all of our cash and optimizing our interest income.

That was going to say and you say about streamlining obviously when we last spoke, people were talking two years ago, blockchain, oh this. And then that was the latest thing. And then since then the explosion of AI and everyone's talking about it and data and sounds like you guys have youth systems. That sounds like it's all working. Do you use AI as well or is that part of it or how does it work?

AI is top of mind for us and we are always looking for opportunities to introduce AI. I think it is an up and coming technology. We are looking to see how we could potentially implement AI for our cash forecasting. We don't have a solution yet, but that is a project that we are working on right now. The team has come up with ideas, we're thinking about how could we even put AI in the creation of our intercompany loans, how do we partner with tax and potentially pull data from different streams and how can AI help us automate all of that stuff? So we don't have it in place but it is top of mind and is a priority for us and is a priority for our cfo.

And that's one of the things we. I talked to Dana Laidhold, she was live on stage. We did Treasure Career Corner live earlier this year. NASDAQ now do daily fact. They do daily scraping or minute to minute scraping of their effects. Exposures through the AI model is internal stuff as you say, makes allows you guys to do so much more with less.

Yeah. And it allows us to be more strategic. It allows us to really look at innovative ideas that may come our way through the banks or allows the team to really think about what the underlying risks are in the company and how we can tackle them versus spending a lot of time collating data to see what our exposures are. So we've been able to eliminate all of that and, and now the team is thinking strategically and how do we deliver value for the enterprise and how do we deliver eps which is really the ultimate goal of a Treasury organization.

And you and I reconnected. One of the reasons, as I said earlier on in the show is just as we re picked up is you've been showing off. You guys are just getting all these awards for this super work you're doing. But I was saying, look, is it about the recognition or why is it. Can you explain why you think it's not important or how come, as I say, you've won a number of awards. Maybe just go through a couple of them and why you think that's important for the team?

Yeah, first and foremost, we don't do things for the awards. We do things to deliver value for the enterprise. But I do feel it's important for the team to see the external recognition so the team can continue to be motivated to do the right thing for the company and really for ourselves on a day to day basis. In 2023 we won the Adam Smith Award for top treasury team and we were all super psyched about that. It's an honor to be recognized and in 2024 we got the honorable mention for the top treasury team award. Back to back wins from Adam Smith is a real highlight for the team. So the team is thrilled. The team is motivated. The team continues to think about how do we deliver and how do we continue this momentum for the company, especially as we go through the challenges that the company is going through.

And when you say you win the award and win the recognition, what's been the sort of what are the byproducts of that? Is that people going, oh, I want to come and work there? Or is it more that just the current team are like actually finding? We're having our work recognized.

It's twofold. We are a very coveted organization. Certainly within BMS people do want to join our team. We have a fantastic culture and part of that culture is we win, we're winning and it's fun to win and it just permeates through our day to day. We're having fun and then of course our team is motivated. Who doesn't want to be recognized for their good work and for all of the effort that they're putting in. Building is hard and sometimes the process of rebuilding an organization is not as easy as one might think. But the it's very fruitful in the end, when you're able to really focus on how to deliver value versus oh, I have to pull all that data from five different places and let's see if it's even correct.

It makes the job more enjoyable. Exactly. Okay. You very kindly gave me this. Catch up if you like. Cole, I know we had some takeaways before. We were just saying crumbs. It was two years ago. I don't remember. But the risk of repeating them. If you are listening today, what are the takeaways or the advice do you give to. You're a very successful treasurer. People are listening today. They've listened to the previous episode. What else are you going to say to these people that they should be doing with their careers or in general with Treasury?

Yeah. So I think the first thing that everyone needs to remember is our key asset in treasury is our people. So having the right people, having the people with the right mindset and the right skill set and it doesn't mean that they all have to be treasury professionals. It's. There's a lot of people, a lot of smart people that are able to learn the skills, but it's the mindset and the willingness to do the work that's really key. So once you have the right team in place, it's really about being open minded and focusing on delivering value for the company. When you have the enterprise in mind, it's obvious to everyone and you easily get buy in to make change. And change is possible. We are living proof that the ability to change and reinvent an organization is possible. And you just need to be focused, embrace the technology. A lot of people are afraid of technology. They fear that they're going to lose their jobs. It's quite the contrary. I believe that technology enables us to do our jobs better and it enables us to do more and bring value to the organization, which is more likely to keep you employed longer term. So it's about doing the right thing, having fun in the process, and really building a fantastic culture with the people around you so that everyone is enjoying their job and doing their best.

And sometimes I try and have the last word, but you can have the last word. That was amazing. As you say. I'm not even gonna repeat that stuff. Just great to see you once again, Sandra, and thank you very much for your time today and look forward to seeing you at another award ceremony very soon.

My pleasure. It's great to see you too.

All right, thanks for tuning into another great episode. You really enjoy it. Thank you very much. You make it worthwhile, us recording them with these amazing treasury professionals right the way across the world, from the US across UK across Europe, and there's lots more exciting guests to come and lots more live events. We love delivering this content. We get asked now, is this what you do? Do you just do content? You just know? The reason we do the content is to get to know you guys, to give you back the tips for success, if you like. But we're here to help you hire someone. If you need to recruit, call us. Because at our heart, we are a Treasury recruitment company. That's how we pay the bills, that's how we pay for the podcast and that's what we're passionate about. We hear from you at events and things. Can we also help you find your next great role? Can we help you hire? The answer is yes, that's exactly what we do. Yes. We do our treasury salary survey@treasurysalary.com that helps us know exactly how to benchmark not only your salary, but also when you're looking to hire. We know exactly what the market is paying, wherever you might be, whether it's the us, UK or Europe. We want to make sure that we are the best informed, that we're not just finger in the air. We always know if you want to hire the best in treasury, don't hesitate to contact us. Go onto the website treasuryrecruitment.com or for the US, you can contact Joe Grabowski Europe. Contact the lovely Katie for more senior roles and roles across the uk, reach out and contact me or drop any of us an email joe@treasuryrecruitment.com Katie treasury recruitment.com or mike@treasuryrecruitment.Com Let us help you make the hiring process as amazingly seamless and easy as our podcasts are to listen to. Thanks for your amazing support and looking forward to seeing you at either an event or a conference very soon. Or just give me a call. Let's help you find the next role or recruit the next treasury professional. All right, until next week, many thanks.