How to Build an Award-Winning Treasury Career with Rónán Clifford

The onus is on you to drive your career. I would always say that your company owns your job, but not your career. So having the ability to adapt, your ability to learn and be, hunger for that is key. Having a strong worth ethic, obviously they'd be the key things I would say.

Welcome to this week's Treasury Career Corner podcast where I interview treasury professionals about their treasury careers. Each week I talk to treasurers about how they build their careers, where they are now and where they see both themselves and the treasury profession going. Next this week's show. Delighted to be joined by Ronan Clifford, the Treasury Director for Honeywell within the MAF Corporate treasury region. So Honeywell are obviously a massive company. They make a variety of different things, so commercial and consumer products, engineering, services, aerospace, but both private and actually major corporations, government. In 2018 they were ranked 77th on the Fortune 500. We've done enough for me. Ronan, I wanted to kick off with your early career. So you actually started within finance and Treasury. Walk us through the steps you took if you like. So you started yourself at State street in a bank.

What was that? Yeah, when I started looking professionally for a job, it was more trying to get a foot in the door rather than having a clear strategic career path in mind. I hadn't gone down the accounting route or the big four route or anything like that. I had masters in Financial Industrial Mathematics so I knew I wanted to do something finance. The unfortunate thing was timing. So I just finished when the dot com bubble burst. So it wasn't as active in terms of banks and so forth, weren't as active in recruiting as maybe they were the year before. So when the job in State street came up, it was a foot in the door in finance connected to my qualifications. So it was an opportunity to see, to understand what you know finance, the different areas that you could get into and then take it from there. So looking back, it was a lot of fun. There was a lot of early starts. We would, it was a back office role we would be in by six in the morning looking at pricing, different navs for funds and so forth. Gave me a good insight in terms of the various different roles from a back office, front office, middle office type initiatives. So I was with State street for just over a year. Key thing I got from that was it was my introduction purely to Treasury. So the role itself wasn't a Treasury role, it was pure back office support function role. But I got involved in a Treasury risk project from that project. That is essentially what tweaked my interest in the world of Treasury. So when I got that experience, so I already had the qualifications if you will, from a degree in a master's program, having the additional then work experience working with the bank, it made my CV get stronger. So therefore when I was being a candidate for other positions it helped. I then was able to tailor my applications more so to a Treasury role or a risk role. And that's ultimately how I then moved purely into treasury where I joined aib which is a large Irish bank in their treasury risk analyst team. A middle office role if you will.

And what was that role like? So you an analyst, you sort of stepped from back to middle office and we'll come into. You've moved more into the front office area in other roles but so you're still in financial services but the good all round treasury analyst role.

So with this role essentially we're working with senior management and with the various dealers either in Dublin or in London, analyzing their risk, making sure that the calculations involved and so forth were tying in their mark to market figures, were tying in, doing some research in terms of they're doing any equity investing and so forth to make sure that the P and L, if you will, was tying back. So if we saw all of a sudden a position build up in a certain equity market and they weren't sure they're breaching their internal limits, we would advise senior management or we would speak directly with trader. If they had waivers, we would build that into our model. So it was more analyzing to provide risk based reporting to senior management. But it allowed me to apply really interest rate knowledge that I had FX rate knowledge because they're the products that they're investing in and also on the equity desk. So I started off mainly purely analyzing interest rates. But then within the three years or two and a half years I was working there, I got involved in all the various different aspects that the risk analyst team were working on. As I said it was purely a middle office role. So for me the frustrating part was that I was doing analysis, I was basing reports, I was making sure that the very safety mechanisms were at least monitored within the organization. But my role would stop at a certain point. It was kind of handing over to senior management if there was a limit breach or if it was getting close to a limit breach, speaking directly with the trader, trying to understand that they had a clear strategy, that they were working within the confines that they're supposed to and if whatever reason my numbers and their numbers didn't tie up, that I able to demonstrate that you know, I had they were able to trust my numbers that I went with confidence to them because trying to tell a trader that they have to stop trading, it's a very difficult conversation to have. So therefore I need to make sure that I would have confidence in the details that I was presenting to them because in some cases we would, it would trigger a stop loss in terms of their ability to trade. So I needed to have the confidence to go have these conversations but then also the confidence in my own ability to trust my numbers. But the frustrating thing as I said it being the nature of the middle office, that dialogue stopped there. I wanted to see how I could utilize the risk averse nature from coming from this background that I had. How could I utilize this skill set to make the next step into a front office role which ultimately led to the next step which is where I ended up with Fidelity and FX team based out of Dublin.

And that role took us through that because then you made some really good. These are, you know, State street, aib, great blue chip names, Fidelity and Fidelity ge, Pfizer. But talk us through the Fidelity role because you know, interesting times, obviously interesting markets at the time as well. So this was back in 06 to 09.

Yeah, no, it was a good move for me because as I said I had built up from back office to a middle office role. But one of the key things I still remember to this day was from the interview process where when I went for the interview the manager or the manager time Salem, he asked me why should I hire you? You're the only one that had that we're interviewing that has no direct dealer experience. I was caught on a hop. What do I say when I'm applying for a job and the gentleman telling me that I don't necessarily have the skill set. I was able to prove that yes, I didn't have necessarily direct experience per se but I had the other skill sets that were required to help do the job. I come from a very risk detailed, risk orientated position. I worked very closely with various dealers. So no, I didn't necessarily pull the trigger but I had all the necessary skill sets that were transferable in order to maybe to move to the next step. So it's one of the those three things that were if you are looking at a job just because you don't tick all the boxes it doesn't mean that your skills aren't transferable. And that's something to really kind of take to understand that when, when you are looking you may not have be the Perfect candidate. But your skills should always, most of the time are transferable and you just have to be able to sell yourself and to demonstrate how, where if there is a gap in your ability or a gap in your CV or a gap in your experience, you've got something to compensate. And in this case I was able to compensate this from the risk averse back that I had developed over the few years and thankfully worked. They gave me the job.

I think it's an interesting point you make there as well because I think people have said to me, how has the recruitment market changed over the years? And what have I seen at the times of pressure? I think the times have changed. Well, the markets are busy, clients are having to be a bit more flexible. Three, four years ago they weren't having to be flexible because everyone was looking for a role and everything else. And coming back to exactly your point is how much of a role can you do? When I have clients who were saying, well, I want to recruit this person, I want them to be able to do 100% of the job, I mean, well that's fine, but how are they going to grow? How are they going to expand their role? There's nothing for them to learn. And the clients were like, well, I don't care, I've got loads of pressure on me. I need someone that could hit the ground running. Whereas three, four years before that you were saying, someone, look, they'll come in and be able to do 50% of the role and 30% is stretch for that person and 20% is totally brand new. Are you okay with that now? Yeah, yeah, we'll put in some effort and stuff like that. And I think as the markets got harder and tougher, you know, it was actually, no, I need them to do that. But as you say, it's about being mostly ready for the role or prepared to do it and put the effort in and learn things. And then with that you were. So you did your role at Fidelity was the. It was a natural transition straight across to GE and Pfizer or were there stuff that you learn or what happened.

With Fidelity was a great learning experience. So as I said, the fx Global FX was run out of Dublin. It was a great experience liaise with the different banks. We were introducing NDFs non deliverable forwards at the time. We had to configure our tms and work very closely with portfolio managers to essentially manage the currency risk and the funds that they were running and so forth. It was very, very interesting but unfortunately due to the global recession at the time and the areas that I was supporting the business on, it was viewed ultimately last, last out type scenario. So the position itself got made redundant. So where the areas I was supporting the funds on, there wasn't any additional revenue. We weren't passing on these costs to the fund managers and so forth. So when they did a portfolio reorganization review, the position that I was actually looking at at the time was made redundant. So it forced me to stop and to reevaluate. While previously I had kind of been focused on, once I got into the back office role, my mindset changed in the sense, okay, I want to get to a front office role. That's where the more interesting things in finance happen. That's where I kind of see myself and my career going to. And I made the necessary steps to get there. So when that went away and the environment, it was very, very difficult to move to another front office role. So I kind of had to pause and to reevaluate what I needed to do. I won't say to reinvent, but I wanted to say how do I. Where is hiring now? What are my skills that can get me a job? So the GE position was a side. It was something from a professional point of view. Didn't work out. Even though I took the job, I worked better for a few months, but I very quickly realized that this wasn't the right fit for me as a professional. I was just reanalyzing because once you have a job it's always easier. So the initial move into that position wasn't under normal circumstances, if you will, the move to Pfizer definitely was. I had the ability, I think, to pause and reflect a little bit more because again, I had the security of having a position again and I wanted to see where and how I could get back and start driving my career again. I suppose to stop being a casualty of the global recession. I've managed to pick myself up my cv. My skill sets are still relevant. How do I transform this to move into a corporate treasury role? So again, even though previously within it was more banking in the financial sector, how do I take this sidestep and to reinvent, to utilize my skillset that I've developed and apply them to the corporate structure. I was fortunate because it gave me a niche that Pfizer were looking for. So it allowed me to make that switch into a corporate treasury role, which is what I moved into within Pfizer, which is from their treasury team for their Global fx, which was quite an interesting role. Again, based in Dublin.

So you made the move from, you know, had these series of roles in financial services and the contrast then coming into a, you know, core corporate treasury role. Pfizer, great corporate to go in and really cut your teeth in. But, you know, the question how was it different? You know, what was the. Was it different culture, was a different pace, or was it exactly the same or what were the commonalities? What were the differences?

I was very fortunate because my manager at the time there, Mark Cunningham, was a great guy that I was able to learn from. But Pfizer was. They very much fostered an environment of openness, of diversity, of appreciating that every employee is different. So when I moved into that environment, environment, it was somewhere where as a young gay professional, I felt it was an opportunity for me to be myself and not necessarily hide an area or an aspect of my life. So when I moved to Pfizer, I definitely made a conscious decision that this is where, somewhere where I can be out and be comfortable. So just in terms of general conversation with my manager at the time, it came up naturally in conversation. But they definitely had a strong cultural environment where it allowed somebody like me to have that confidence and have that comfort to be able to be out in a workplace. It gave me the strength and the ambition to actually drive my career even more because I ultimately was more. More myself, if you will. So I was able to step in more, be more vocal, knowing that Pfizer and Mark and the team, there was no issues in terms of any discrimination between sex, skin color, religion, sexual orientation, like that. It was a very diverse. And it allowed me to, I suppose, be more of a confident team player. From there, I really got involved in what I'm really passionate about now, which is continuous improvement, technology, innovation. And when you see how that plays into treasury roles now, it's really. It really was kind of like the awakening within me. I went through Six Sigma training, both yellow belt and green belt training. I became a continuous improvement champion within the organization. It really helps me, you know, look at, take a step, look at processes. What's been, what's happening, what did we do in the past? Are there something different areas we can look at and make things different? And I always had encouragement from management, I always had encouragement from my colleagues. So, yeah, having that diverse environment really did strengthen my career and bring a lot out of me. And that then really became the accelerator for me and my career because when the right opportunity happened within the organization, they were doing some carve outs, they're divesting their nutri business, which they sold to Nestle and then they were spinning out their animal health business, which became a new company called Zoetis. I saw this as a real opportunity and I had developed the background in continuous improvement. I developed the background when the opportunity arose and they said, right, well, we're going to be setting up a new treasury center. It's going to be based out of Belgium. I immediately went, I have the skill sets I have to drive. I thankfully also have the track record to run with this. So when I spoke with Mark, he went very strongly, encouraged me to pursue. I became the interim treasury person for Zoetis at the time because it was something I saw right, if I start working for them, it makes the transition easier. Then I interviewed for the position. Thankfully, it also came with a promotion as well. I think that was really the accelerator for my career because I was very fortunate because I was able to get the skill set that I needed again with Six Sigma training and the various continuous improvement projects that I worked on, that when an opportunity arose, I made myself the strongest candidate that I could. And then with Pfizer, the opportunity arose and as I said, it's been great.

Ronan, can you just explain, you know, some of our listeners will know exactly what Six Sigma is. I do through GE and everything else about just, you know, just a few words just for someone perhaps earlier in their career. They're like, I've heard this Six Sigma thing, but, you know, just explain what that is to people and why that's important in treasury, would you say?

Say it gives you the mindset where you can look at an existing process and see where the non value add steps are when you go from A to B to C to D. Do all these steps make sense? Is there a business reason for them, is there a compliance reason for them? Or is this just non value add step that just was created or is there new technology that can replace this and so forth. So it's essentially looking at what's currently being done in an organization and see if it's something that you can do in a more smart and efficient manner.

Also, I just want to go back a stage as well. I said to you before, and I don't know if we actually got this, but the transition between financial services, treasury and then you were deeply embedded in a corporate treasury environment. How would you say, looking back on those, they differed.

Until I joined Honeywell, the first thing I would have said, Pace, things tend to move a little bit slower with corporate treasury because just the nature of that you're safeguarding the financial risk of the organization, therefore, and particularly I suppose pre crisis or during the crisis, a lot of treasurers may have been more passive. They didn't necessarily always have a top seat at the decision making table. I think that has changed quite considerably. Treasury is seen as more as an active partner with the business, more than a passive partner than they may have previously been. But within a financial institution it is the core of the business. So within Fidelity, providing the different, porting the funds and so forth with the FX hedging solutions that we provided, that was the core of Fidelity's business. Same with AIB on their dealing team, you know, looking at their interest rate risk, the FX risk taking positions and so forth. That was, that's how they were. These two organizations essentially were making their money on the corporate side. That isn't the case. You're there purely to support the business, to grow, to make sure that liquidity is there and so forth. So a lot of times you go underneath the radar. So therefore things can move slower. It's harder maybe to get some change because you are dealing with potentially large, large flows and therefore there can be reluctance to maybe reexamine how things are happening or what's, or how things are working because they are working while within the financial sector it's more cutting pace. So when I look back when we had to introduce the ability to trade NDFs into our TMS system, it wasn't the case of, you know, this was nice to have. Our portfolio managers are looking to do something in Russia. We need some way to look after fx. You know, you've got a year to figure this out. It was, we're doing this on this date, if you don't mind. You don't work out the financial, manage the financial risk that's on you. So it's a different pace.

Pfizer to Zoetis is the spin off and things. But that was a location change as well. So you've been in Dublin and you then said, oh, Dublin, I know Belgium was that right? And you know, how was that as a shift?

In all honesty, Belgium wasn't high on my list of countries to accelerate my career.

I would say, sorry. We love Belgium. We do lots of work in Belgium. It's a lovely place and I love visiting it and I'm sure you love working there, but you carry on, please don't.

Don't get me wrong. I have probably done more for the Belgium Tourist Board than most Belgium. I'm very, very fond of my adoptive home. But I suppose when you think of treasury career, you immediately think of London, New York, even parts of Switzerland, Singapore, those type of countries. But again, Pfizer, they chose their treasury center to be set up in Belgium. To me, it was moving from a West European country to another West European European country. So the transition was a little bit easier with the same culture of diversity that's being fostered in the new company. So therefore I knew it was going to be a similar fist for me and somewhere I could grow. So in that regard, the transition was easy. When I spoke about it to some of my friends or some of my colleagues that I would previously work, have worked with in senior positions in organizations, they have all had an element of working internationally. I really can't think of anybody within my network that hasn't spent some time outside of their own country to gain that international experience. Pretty certain any person I know of who's in a senior position within any organization have all spent at least some time working on an international project, be it a convent or be it something more long term. Like me, I view this as a great opportunity to differentiate myself from my, I won't say my competition, but from my peer group. So when it came to the next step, they would see my cv as in, yes, this candidate has built up and progressively moved up from various different roles within Dublin, gained great experience, but has also succeeded in another environment and another location, which again, diversifying your cv, making yourself doing everything you can to make sure you're the strongest candidate if or when positions come up and working internationally is definitely viewed as one of them.

You were in Belgium with Zoetis, then you made a move to join, as we said, at the header of the show. And perhaps you can describe Honeywell for everyone. How did that come about?

Zoetis? The main thing for what really excited me was that we moved from. I was moving essentially from a corporate treasury operational role. I headed up front office there in Belgium. Even though it was an established business, the treasury center felt like a startup. So it was very exciting. We had to design everything from scratch because what the processes were in place made sense. For Pfizer, we were a lot smaller. You know, you go from a market cap of 200 billion down to company the size that Zoetis became. It was completely different ballgame, but similar risks and so forth. So the startup element of that came very, very exciting. But I felt after the two years of working with Zoetis, I felt that I was becoming at risk again to becoming a niche player. Having FX experience, having the front office experience, I felt I needed something more Strategic to give me more strength and depth in my cv. So at this stage, it was pretty much the first time I used LinkedIn. Previously I had maybe let's say a skeleton profile. Nothing really there. I had it because Everybody else had LinkedIn rather than using it in any way, shape or form. I sat down, spent some time working on my profile, then looking at opportunities on LinkedIn. I saw this position with Honeywell. I was going, well, do I want to stay in Belgium? Do I want to go back to Dublin? Why not see what Honeywell has to offer. I was quite intrigued then when I did the different research regarding the various awards that treasury had won and the various peer recognition the team had generated over the years, that naturally enticed me to go meet the team when the had the position advertised. So when I sent off my application as was successful, I was invited for an interview. It was probably one of the very first times that when I went for a job interview, not only was I excited by the position and the opportunity, but was also the people. You got a real sense of drive. You're moving away from a sluggish corporate treasurer where maybe things happen at a slower pace, to going this is possibly not. It's not the business that the company is in, but because the business moves at such a fast pace, treasury has to move at a fast pace. We have to evolve to stay relevant. If you don't, we're not going to bring value add to the business. And I got a real sense of that from both Severine, who's a Treasury director there, and Marie Astrid, who's the assistant treasurer. The two ladies that interviewed me and again they reassured me in terms of the corporate diversity they have in the organization that how it's not only just a core belief or a behavior within Honeywell. There is like most organizations, they have these types of company or corporate behaviors. It's essential within the organization that diversity is what drives the organization. And speaking to both Maria Astrid and Severine, I got 100% that feedback, that vibe from them, their passion for continuous improvement, innovation. I felt that these are people I'm going to learn from. And when you are in that type of environment, it's very hard then not to want to pursue it would no longer became a job. It was kind of like this is actually not only a company I could work well in, these are people I could very much learn from and vice versa as well. They could learn from my skill set. So I felt it fished into everything I was looking for in terms of moving Away from an operational role which I had traditionally been involved in, to a much more strategic role which is what I'm in now. And thankfully it's been going very well because the four years I've been in the organization I have been promoted twice though. I started off as a Treasury manager and now thankfully I'm a Treasury director. So it's when you're in the right company and it's the right ethos for you, it really brings the best out of you and I'm pleased to say that I think it's been a great move for me so far.

Ronan has very kindly agreed to talk to us today and he's actually based out in Dubai just at the moment whilst he's attending an HSBC roundtable event with AI Robotics and technology. And that was something that I know that you've got a real interest in if you like. We've got a special feature series coming up where I'm going to interview some guys about technology and various other bits. But harks back to another question. I put sort of Royston Foster, who's very much into his technology solutions and things like that. I'll put it to you and I'll give you a moment to sort of think about it as well. Treasury technology. Why bother?

Why bother? Well, first I'm going to add the caveat. It's a work trip. It's not all sun in Dubai.

Oh no.

Just in case anybody from Honeywell is. So why treasury and technology? Because if you don't, you're no longer relevant. That's how I see it. When we meet our banking partners and as you can appreciate, we meet banks constantly. It's not just talking about cash management. We don't talk to them about just about fees, the basics, the bread and butter type operation. We want to know where they're investing their time, their money and what their digital strategy is. Because if the bank doesn't stay relevant to us, why would we bank with the bank? Treasury has to think the same way. We have to stay relevant for our organizations, otherwise we're not going to be a value add part of an organization. Maybe for some companies or some organizations the setup is, you could probably argue, yes, being a passive treasury is the right approach and that's fine. But if you want to be a forward thinking and stay relevant, I think you have have to you say about.

Those guys have got to stay relevant, stay up with you guys. Well, what are you trying to get out of it? What's the sort of benefit for Treasury? Is it simply in our cash and revenues are that much better or what.

Is it with coming to buy. The main reason here is we're meeting my core business colleagues and to understand how we can support them better because we don't have a physical treasury treasurer based in this region. But when I came we obviously wanted to speak with our banks. When HSBC then approached me about speaking about innovation, I was happy to do so because we constantly do it because it's a double sided benefit in the sense that one of the things we're very, very proud of in Honeywell treasury is that we're viewed as a catalyst for change within the industry. So we've worked very closely with our banks to accelerate the use of e signatory for example. It was something that we were quite proud of that we won a TMI award for there last year regarding our digital strategy and moving to electronic signatory. We were able to do that because we had a close working relationship with our banks in particularly Barclays where I sit on the advisory board at Barclays, our client advisory board at Barclays where they get they send ideas out from corporates. As HSBC know, Honeywell are quite a vocal client. They asked while I was here to speak with some of their other corporates about change. The reason why we do it is because then we were able to influence our banking partners in terms of where they're going. So when they look at rolling out their various different products, we've had a role in developing them to make them relevant for treasury and also to accelerate it because it's all well and good having something fantastic in three years time but if you need it now, it gets frustrating. So we're able to push our banks. Challenging banks going give us the 10% improvement now enables us to do our jobs quicker, faster, more efficiently to do more or less which is ultimately what all Treasury Departments are forced to do. Give us the tools that we need now, even if it's only small incremental improvements rather than trying to package this up in a nice presentation with a bow if we have to wait three years time. So that's ultimately why we work with our banks regarding technology, why do we do it ourselves is ultimately efficiency. So sometimes yes, this efficiency can lead to a reduction in man hours so we can focus on additional value add tasks. One of my colleagues at the moment is working on a project with robotics where we'll be able to potentially enhance our yield because we're moving the non value add data gathering off the analysis to allowing us time to make pure decisions and Therefore potentially maximize our yield. So it's across the board from time savings to actual real hard dollar generation aspects as well.

That technology piece segues quite nicely, actually into when you're looking for members, team members, whether internally or externally, you're trying to recruit people because obviously, as we said before, you're on a PODC hosted by the treasury recruitment company. So that's the thing we're innately interested in. When you are recruiting, what are you looking for? Is it the grip on technology or is it qualifications? Is it a personality type? What's the skill set you're particularly focusing in on as you as in Ronan and perhaps then separately what a Honeywell look for as well?

The easiest way to me to answer that is something. When I spoke with our treasurer, Jim recently, what he asks all of us to do is essentially to act courageous, which is one of our Honeywell goals. But ultimately what that means is to push yourself to do something that may be outside your comfort zone and demonstrate that either through your CV or to the interview process. And that then would depend on what level you're applying for. So maybe if you're applying for a more junior role, that being courageous or pushing yourself could be getting those treasury qualifications and that could be the right would be where we would look at going like this person, you know, they're just out of high school or they're just out of university, they've taken the last year or so, they've done the ACT exams or what I did when I was in Ireland, I did the IACT exams in conjunction with Dublin City University to strengthen up my CV because my background was mathematics and politics, not necessarily pure finance. So again, I took that step to plug a gap or to strengthen my cv. So when you're looking at that level, perhaps qualifications are important, be it a qualified accountant or a specific degree or a Treasury specific qualification like the IACT or the ACT or whatever jurisdictions, local equivalent. But how I would sum it all up is someone who has said acts courageous. So when I look at my CV and how I think I have done it, I've always pushed on the continuous improvement side. So I have a story to tell. It's not just looking at history. He worked in Company A for X amount of months. It's like he's delivered on this project. How did he deliver these projects? He went and got Six Sigma qualifications. So I drove the change and success, if you will. So it's to act with courageous and put yourself into situations where you've been forced to learn and delivered because it makes it easier to have a story and then you have a conversation, the recruiter. And it's a lot different than just going, oh, yeah, I worked here, we did this, this, this. But you're able to demonstrate how and how what you did, how you went about it. And ultimately, if you put yourself in a situation where you didn't have the skill set, but you acquired a skill set and you still delivered, they're the type of people that we would hire.

Well, I don't want to steal from Jim and his background, but. Well, it actually harks very much back to. I gave the keynote speech at the Austrian Treasurers Conference last year and we could. And we're going to sort of revitalize some of the bits that. One of the things that came out from all the research I did before and we talked about being a passenger. It harks very much back to. I gave the keynote speech at the Austrian Treasurers Conference last year and we're going to sort of revitalize some of the bits that. One of the things that came out from all the research I did before, and we talked about being a passenger on the career train or actually being the driver for the career train, and it was a good analogy, but we didn't really make too much of it. But actually, in some of the speeches we're going to do this year, it's much more. And I think it really feeds directly into what you said about being courageous, as you say. But it's then defining, you know, that you lead your career, or it could just sit there. You can sit there and do your job for five, 10 years and handle. Yeah, you might get 10, but if you take an active role in your own career that, you know, particularly within treasury, you can make a hell of a difference and also. Also have an incredible career, which is one of the things, you know, when I spoke to Ronan before the show started, he was saying, you know, I'm still on my career path as I grow and everything else. Exactly. You know, it's amazing the way that you're, you know, we've had sort of some more senior treasures, but I think there's a commonality about Treasury. You know, one of the things that I've also said to people is there are so many great treasurers out there, and I've been doing it 20 years, and I sometimes make the joke that new treasury guys do all the same job in exactly the same way, just with different stuff. And people say, really, it's. No, that's what's amazing about it is that the job that you do and that you did Zoetis, the job you now do at Honeywell, they're different, but there are some common tools you might use. But the approaches are really different. I mean, going with that, where do you see sort of treasury going in the future? Where do you see it sort of of developing?

Well, I suppose everybody is feeling the pain in the sense of we're forced to do more or less. So therefore you have to figure that out. How you stay relevant, how you're able to support the business. Is technology the right way to go? And then when you look at technology, what is the right path? A lot of buzzwords are talking about AI, ap, robotics and so forth, but they may not be the right answer. You have a tms or if you have a tms, should I say that could be your core starting point. That might be enough to answer your initial pain points, to alleviate any pressures that you or your team have had to deliver the results that you required. And then as you get more advanced, or as your company gets more advanced or if things change, that's when you can start looking at maybe more sophisticated aspects like robotics and AP and so forth. I wouldn't say it's to stay. I wouldn't say every single treasurer now has to run out and learn how to program. Everybody has to run out now and understand how you work with a robot. Are we going to be replaced by these? It's not that at all. You need to understand what's out there and then from understanding what's out there, what's relevant to your organization and what's going to be the right fit for your organization and then hopefully have the budget or have the time and have the right people to be able to implement that. Because I think if you are stuck in a way where you've got people that aren't challenging the team and they're doing this same thing over and over again, they're not going to be necessarily satisfied with their roles. And you've got the risk then of potential high turnover. And then, you know, if someone leaves, can you replace them? Well, if you can get technology that removes the non value add aspect of those people's jobs. So again, like robotics or particularly like utilizing your tms, you've got your team that are more, I wouldn't say more focused, but they're more engaged. They realize that they moved away from pure process driven situation or they're looking, no longer looking at non value add tasks to moving something that's more strategic. And I think that's what when you look at your treasury team, how do you make it more strategic? How do you bring more value add to the organization, how do you get the information, the visibility on your cash in order to either present to senior management or to, in order to make better investment decisions or to analyze your relationship with your banks? Are your banks charging what they say they're charging you? Is there opportunity to implement something that will be cost neutral, that is maybe looking at a product that we're currently looking at, which is Redbridge and analyzing our bank fees when we look at this to us for treasury is essentially going to be cost neutral by any recharge or any rebate that we can get from our banking charter groups. So there's technology that's out there that you may need a budget for, but then there's also technology out there that due by its pure nature it's either going to create wealth that is you're going to make better investment decisions or it's going to give you opportunities to reduce your banking charges or it gives you the ability to have more structured dialogue with your banking partners in terms of sharing the wallet, sharing the business because you're able to drill down and use your data and go right bank A, B, C. I know exactly how much you guys are receiving off me. I know exactly, you know how much we do in trade, how much we do in fx, how much we do in this and push your banks to get better pricing. Because when you have data and good data quality it leads to different conversations. You have either within your own organization where you're able to demonstrate the additional value add the treasury brings or what your banking partners where either you can look for extra yield or you can push to get a different pricing rate or you can just do what we do as well within treasury have the opportunity, opportunity to push the banks to deliver something that will enable better results for you. Again, working with Initi, Barclays and then BNP Paribas and Deutsche bank, we've now gone paperless across a number of countries. And in terms of time save and non value add and chasing signatories, it's really made things a lot simpler for us and it's freed some of our colleagues to focus on other areas. So it's been a big focus for us and I think it should be a big focus for all treasurers.

That sort of reflects my show that was just released this week actually that by the time this comes out it'll be a couple of weeks old. But I spoke to Joel Campbell from H and R Block in the us and one of the things that he and I talked about, and I think you've encapsulated it there, was potentially that there's been an evolution of the role. We talk about where's treasury gone and been and things, but we see it very much. We talked about this. The evolution of the role is of both the treasurer and the treasury team is to become a buffer, if you like, for the, or catalyst maybe for the cfo with technology and new ideas and initiatives. That CFO is putting all these things coming, but actually pushes the treasurer out in front of the treasury team saying, guys, can you just filter this for me? What's going to make that. Because you're at the forefront of things. Treasury is all about the future and what's coming up, but you're at the front of it and then actually assessing it and then what is going to work and things like that. So, yeah, I think that's very good.

I would agree that completely. And it's what we, what I went to an Innovation Day with BNP there last month and it's what both the bank and us both said. The banks ultimately are becoming like an app store for the various fintechs. And then when you look at the different ecosystem, it's so, so big. Treasury is working with the banks to tunnel or to channel that, that selection of fintechs to see within your organization what makes sense. Because some treasury is your pathway into a corporate, but it may not necessarily be the tool treasury would actually use. So, for example, you could be looking at some API that could be useful for procurement, but it's done by, in conjunction with a banking partner. The bank's going to come to us, we're going to see if it makes sense. And we can see if it makes sense either for a different department or again, as you mentioned, to the cfo.

Okay, so as we wrap up today, today's show, I spoke to Ronan before and we got permission again to put his LinkedIn profile link to his LinkedIn profile in the show notes so you can connect to him there if you're within treasury. And he, you know, it's going to be good to have you in the professional network and everything else, but as you look back over, you know, a number of years of experience, you know, I said there's more to come and everything else, but if someone looks at your background, maybe they are working as a Treasury analyst at the likes of an AIB and they say, absolutely, actually that's the sort of career I want to follow. I want to make those moves and things like that. What overarching advice would you give to that person? You talked about qualifications, different beaker ranges and stuff. But taking that to one side, what would you put down as your key to success or the piece of advice you might give to those guys?

Realizing that you have to stay relevant, you have to stay current, you have to have the ability to adapt, tailor, look at your skill set where you're strong, look at your weaknesses and so forth. Identify these and the onus is on you to drive your career. I would always say that your company owns your job, but not your career. So having the ability to adapt, your ability to learn and be hunger for that is key. Having a strong worth ethic, obviously they'd be the key things I would say.

That's a little catchphrase I've just put here. The company owns your your job, you earn your career. What a great summary from Ronan. Ronan, great show. Thank you very much. I've loved it actually. Really in, you know, we've gone sort of a natural path through your background. And as I say, I think if, if you want to connect with Ronan, you will put his LinkedIn connection in there. So all these to me, thank you very much for your time today.

Thank you, M.