How to Build and Strengthen Your Treasury Brand’s Visibility for Lasting Impact Outside the Room

In this week's episode, this is some of the amazing stuff you're going to get.

So my four words, and hopefully by the end of this, you can tell me those are not it. Find some new words. So my four brand traits are authentic, intentional, relatable, and grounded. So when I think about awareness in the context of a brand, it's important for you to think about how others receive you. As you're saying, sitting in this room right now, you're walking through the exhibit hall, you're walking through the halls, you're experiencing people and you have an idea of perhaps what you're thinking about them. You have opinions about how you're thinking about my brand. But it's important to also think about your own awareness, how you process how you're showing up and how you want people to receive you.

In terms of your career, I would tell everyone on my team, you own your career, so learn to advocate for yourself. And I'll say this to the ladies specifically, learn to advocate for yourselves. Speak up. Tell your leaders what you want. Tell them what you want to do. Tell them what that next role is. Because if you don't, there's likely not anyone in the room that's going to be jumping up and down and telling them what you really want. And men are amazing at this, but women, we don't. And I went through that, and I'm treasurer today because I learned to advocate for myself. And it took me forever to really schedule that meeting with our cfo, but I told him I'd like to be treasurer one day. I never anticipated it would have happened a year later.

And I sat here and I thought about, okay, mine may not be exactly three to four words, but. But I can say that I'm a trusted and bold business partner who takes calculated risk. So if you think about what are your few words to describe yourself or start your story right, because your story starts today. And it starts with this conference in terms of the people that you meet and the sessions and the learnings that you're taking, such as being here.

Welcome to this week's Treasury Career Corner podcast, where each and every week I talk to Treasures about how they build their careers, where they are now, where they see both themselves and the treasury profession going to next. This week's show is another special one for you. In this amazing live session from AFP Boston in 2025, I interview three incredible treasurers. I talk to Meredith Vance, senior Vice president and Global Treasurer at NTT Data, Sandra Ramos Alves, senior vice president and treasurer at Bristol Myers Squibb. And Summer Simmons, Associate vp, Treasury at Victoria's Secret. I interviewed the three amazing ladies about how your technical skills might get you in the room, but it's your personal brand that keeps you top of mind after you walk out the room. This episode is at an incredible masterclass in owning your brand and it's taught about through the real life experiences. Three amazing female treasurers, and that wasn't us. To me, it was amazing to share the stage with these three incredible women. All together, the four of us, we explored how authenticity, visibility and how you need to make an effort to do the relationship building can turn these sometimes quiet technical professionals into influential leaders. And you're going to literally get that from this episode. So, as I say each and every week, let's get on with the episode. Thank you all for filling up the room. First of all, I'm going to ask for some energy, enthusiasm and no phones. Oh, few of you look nervous now, don't you? Yeah. Put your phones away, switch them to silent. Why don't you give. Give the next hour to yourselves, not to your work. Who else is doing it for you? Give it to your colleagues. They can do all this stuff, so put them away. That's a couple of the house rules. I'm going to let my panelists introduce themselves in a moment, but first of all, we've got a clicker that works. Maybe it doesn't. And there we go. There's our technical team. There we go. That's better. Who am I? Mike Richards. I run the Treasury Recruitment company. I tell you this because I've been a Treasury recruiter for 30 years. I'm not doing it as a sales pitch. Doing more to say why AFP have let me in this room. Also, I run a podcast, Treasury Career corner. Started it seven years ago. Thought maybe we do five or 10 episodes. 400 episodes later, 450 treasurers. And I'm pleased to say all of the guests here today have all been on the podcast. You all need to give it a listen. You also get CTP credits for listening to it. So you listen to the episode, do a quick quiz, CTP credits. What could be better? So I'm going to let each of my guests introduce themselves, then we'll go into the main session. So firstly, over to Summer.

Hello, everyone. I'm Summer Simmons. I'm the Associate Vice President.

Look at that. You go, thanks.

Of treasury at Victoria's Secret and Company.

I'm going to give this. We got these on mic. Yeah.

I manage Cash Capital and Banking relationships that help our business to operate. And I make sure that our financial choices set us up to win today and to build talent for tomorrow.

Fantastic.

You said keep it short, right, Sandra?

Good afternoon, everyone. I'm Sandra Ramos Alves. I'm SVP and treasurer at Bristol Myers Squibb. I have been treasurer since 2021 and I've been at the company for 20 years. I have been blessed to be able to build a fantastic team and we are building a treasury organization for the future. So it's all about transformation and empowerment and inclusion at Bristol Myers Squibbing.

Perfect.

And hey everyone, I'm Meredith Vance and welcome to AFP 2025 here in Boston. I'm completely excited to be here with you today and I hope that you all will get some clarity from our conversation today. I am a little bit of background. I'm the senior Vice President and Global Treasurer for NTT Data. I've been in the treasury profession for over 25 years now and a part of AFP since 1998.

Here we go. This is what the session is about. Now, I'm not going to repeat the slides. I hate presenters that do that. The one bit I'm going to say to you about actionable tips right at the bottom there, take some action. You could come here, sit here back in your chairs and just listen to us talk about how these ladies have built a personal brand, how I've done it and things like that. As I've said to people, your technical skills earn you a place at the table. They get you in that room, they get you maybe on panels and things like that. But your personal brand makes sure that you're remembered when you walk out of here. Oh, yeah, that was really good. Someone is great, Sandra, Meredith, you go. Oh, actually, that's. They're literally doing the branding here for you. So this is a masterclass in it as well. That also means that you want people to understand what you stand for and what you know, your thoughts and beliefs about Treasury. As I said to a number of. Well, I did New York Cash Exchange recently and I said, you treasury guys, you stink. Yeah, you guys, you stink at telling your stories. The if I was just to summarize how much in this room you de risk the portfolio for your companies, how much money you've helped make, it would be in the millions of billions. How many people know that? No one. It's like a leaf in the forest. You don't actually talk about it, you just hide it. I'll just get on and do my job. And I'll come on to more about that later. But again, it's about people remembering you when you're out of the room now. Amazing Summer, she appeared with me live on stage last year, and she helped out by coming and joining us this year because we had lovely Leanne and all the best to her. But, Summer, owning your brand can talk about that over to you. Sure.

So one of the questions that Mike asked before we joined was, how would you describe your brand? Like, what four words would you use? And it took me a little while to think about it, and before I commit to it, I texted five or six people and I said, if you had to describe me professionally in three words without thinking about it long, what would you come back with? And the reason why I did that, and I will share my words with you in a minute, is because it's fine for us to perceive our brands. It's fine for us to get on LinkedIn and say, this is who I am and this is what I do. But if other people don't experience you that way, that really isn't your brand. It's an aspiration, but it truly isn't how people receive you. And so my four words, and hopefully by the end of this, you can tell me those are not it. Find some new words. So my four brand traits are authentic, intentional, relatable, and grounded. So when I think about awareness in the context of a brand, it's important for you to think about how others receive you. As you're sitting in this room right now, you're walking through the exhibit hall, you're walking through the halls, you're experiencing people, and you have an idea of perhaps what you're thinking about them. We're on stage, you're absolutely sizing us up. You have opinions about how you're thinking about my brand, but it's important to also think about your own awareness, how you process how you're showing up and how you want people to receive you. Then there's this idea about alignment. If you make your list of how you want to show up and you send your text to a handful of people and there are gaps, figure out the gap, identify the gap, and ask yourself, is it a gap that I'm willing to fill, or am I okay just abandoning that part of the brand? How difficult is it to do that? How valuable is it to do that? And then there is accountability. Build the relationship you want in every room. When I think about afp, I get overwhelmed by sitting on stage and sharing and being vulnerable. But I'm even more overwhelmed when I'm in the audience and I have all these opportunities to connect and I'm like, no, I'm just going to scroll on my phone and, you know, wait for the program to start. I'm going to be a spectator. Be thoughtful about building that brand in every moment. Even when you're a participant and you're in the audience. Be super thoughtful about. If someone were assessing you later on, how would they describe you in the time that they spent at a lunch table, at a breakfast event, or even in a row at a session? So for me, owning your brand really starts with awareness. We talked about that. Most of my opportunities that I've had professionally have not come because I went looking for them. And that includes my first role in Treasury. It came because somebody saw how I worked, how I operated, how I showed up in meetings, and they tapped me on the shoulder and said, hey, I've got this job. What do you think about it? Are you interested? And so I think that is incredibly important to advocate for things that you're interested in. But also know that you're always auditioning for that next role. And that's how I think about a brand. Like, we are all auditioning for our next generation job and how we're showing up is the difference between someone getting your resume from your network and going, oh, no, I experienced her, we're good on that. Or I really enjoyed her. I had no idea that she was open to moving to, I don't know, North Dakota. Let's give her a call and see how that goes. I think it's important to be thoughtful about how you're showing up in the moment. The other thing I wanted to share here is over time and when you go to my LinkedIn, because you, you will. If you haven't, you will learn that I'm a career adventurer. I don't get attached to a company. And in being a career adventurer, it is incredibly important to manage your brand. One benefit is you change jobs. You get to be a brand new you, right? You get to keep the things at work. You get to work on the things that you wish you would have done in your previous company or role. But you also want to be thoughtful about those who have experienced you. Do they get to say your version 2.0 or you're worse than you were at that first job. Like, you're just even less pleasant and even more unrefined. You don't want that type of feedback, so just be thoughtful about how you're showing up last. But not least, your brand is not built online. How many people by show of Hands has looked at a LinkedIn profile of someone that they actually worked with and the way that they describe themselves in the about question, you're like, are you serious right now? Show of Hands, don't be that person. Don't do it. Be honest about who you are. Be intentional about the brand that you're trying to build, and more importantly, be thoughtful about the reputation that you're creating in every moment that you're working. And I know that that sounds super daunting and overwhelming, but I do believe that our reputations precede us and you only need one really crappy moment to ruin it. Unless you've been built enough trust in deposits with a large enough group of people that they'll say, I think she was having an off moment. Let's give her a little bit of grace. So be thoughtful about how you're showing up. And finally, the last thing is your reputation does travel faster than you do. So make sure that you're getting ahead of it and always being thoughtful. And sometimes it's as simple as, I have rbf, like, I own it. Like my husband says all the time, if we didn't meet online, I would have never spoken to you in person because you just don't have a come talk to me kind of face. But I say that all to say, just be thoughtful. It's easier to smile at somebody and create a brand of being approachable than it is for them to have to push through your IVF to learn that you're actually quite congenial, like myself. Alleged, allegedly.

So don't worry, I'm just going to come back to before I pass to Sandra and actually tell you a story. Intentional. Now I'm just going to come back to that. I intentionally got up on stage, I started to speak at various Windy City summits in Chicago and have done a number of years. And I was halfway through one of my speeches and I could see the audience were going, yeah, yeah. And I talked to a couple of people. I've talked to Joel Campbell, who have shared the stage with at previous AFPs. And I said to Joel one day, I said, I don't like public speaking. It's like, yeah, right, yeah, nice. But I hate this. This is out of my comfort zone. But I chose for my business to grow, I had to engage with treasures like this. I had to do the podcast. The podcast is easier. You sit in the shed and you have a cup of tea, have a great chat to ladies like this. But joking aside, I then did a treasure Career Corner live. We do these live events. I had these, actually. Amazing. Two ladies sharing the stage, but with Sandra. And I said to Sandra, or she said to me, actually, Mike, this is great. You got me out of my comfort zone. I'm talking in front of this room, 120 treasurers in New York, and, yeah, famous last words. You feel for her now? So I picked up the phone, I said, sandra, you said, you need to get out of your comfort zone and be visible. Will you join my panel at afp? Slight pause. Mike, I hate you. I think those are recorded words. I said, but you also love me in equal amount. She agreed, and then she begrudgingly said, yes. Visibility for you guys. You can put your hand up and get on panels like this and everything else, but without further ado, I'm going to pass across to Sandra to explain her. There you go.

Thank you. Yes. I'm really excited to be here. I am incredibly out of my comfort zone. I do not like public speaking, but I am working on improving that. And this is a great opportunity, great practice. It's a safe space. And so in that respect, I would encourage everyone to do things like this when asked, because your peers, maybe they'll do judge you, but maybe they won't. But maybe, you know, you'll relate to the challenges. But in terms of my brand, I don't know that that's a brand, but I will say that I agree with some that your reputation does precede you. So be very careful and be very kind to everyone that you interact with in general. But in terms of your career, I tell everyone on my team, you own your career, so learn to advocate for yourself. And I'll say this to the ladies specifically, learn to advocate for yourselves. Speak up. Tell your leaders what you want. Tell them what you want to do. Tell them what that next role is, because if you don't, there's likely not anyone in the room that's going to be jumping up and down, down and telling them what you really want. And men are amazing at this, but women, we don't. And I went through that, and I'm treasurer today because I learned to advocate for myself. And it took me forever to really schedule that meeting with our cfo, but I told him I'd like to be treasurer one day. I never anticipated it would have happened a year later, so thank God I did, because I may not be sitting here today, but also develop the skill set when you're advocating for yourself, and this goes for everyone. Don't whine, don't complain. Talk about your value. What have you delivered? What can you deliver more for the organization? Because it's really about results at the end of the day and ensuring that your leadership trusts you. So if you don't have a foundation of integrity, that's probably going to be enough starter. So focus on always doing the right thing for the organization and you know, it will be seen through by everyone around you. Be authentic. I mean, that's what it comes down to. So authenticity brings trust, trust breeds results. And in the end, the results will hopefully deliver career growth for you. What else can I say? Be visible. Show up. Show up for your team. Show up for yourself. Really, that's the most important thing. Do your best. Always do your best. Step out of your comfort zone. Sign up for those roles that are really challenging. I've been working for 30 years, so I can tell you I have the most challenging project of my career at this stage. And I have a lot of people telling me, why are you even bothering? It's nearly impossible. This is from a Treasury perspective, building a working capital culture and a cash culture in a very large organization that's been around for over 150 years. So you can imagine that I am literally getting nowhere fast, but I am not quitting in the process. I'm getting a lot of visibility. Some of it I don't really want to be honest, but the folks on my team, I let them present, I let them take all of the kudos, and I fight all the battles in the back. So just, just sign up to do the right thing for the organization is my advice to everyone here.

Meredith Webb from Texas.

From Texas, yes. And Summa, she challenged. I challenged. Actually, I challenged myself as I was sitting here in Suma's setting. What are her three to four words that would describe her leadership or her brand? And I sat here and I thought about, okay, mine may not be exactly three to four words, but I can say that I'm a trusted and bold business partner who takes calculated risk. So if you think about what are your few words to describe yourself or start your story right, because your story starts today and it starts with this conference in terms of the people that you meet and the sessions and the learnings that you're taking, such as being here. But, you know, I'll tell you a little bit. So a little bit of a story in terms of starting your brand today, something that I do, it's an exercise that I do with everyone who comes into my organization or my team on day one. And this isn't necessarily an exercise. Maybe, maybe you're not in day one of your career. Maybe you're in day 301 or day 501 or somewhere in between. But I challenge everyone on my team to take a step back as we think about our internal brand. And within the first 90 days of being in my organization, or I said, you could even start this exercise today, I said, write down the list of who we interact with, who's our internal business partner. So I'm a treasurer. So for treasury, that would be the tax folks, legal folks, the sales folks, et cetera. But who do you interact with or who are you anticipating the teams you're going to be interacting with every day and then figure out who's your peer in that organization, who are you going to be talking to every day and sit down and meet them? Sit down and have. Whether you're in the office and you are going for a coffee in the break room or whether you're working remotely and you are setting up a teams or a zoom meeting video is very important.

Right.

Because again, we have to connect these personal relationships. But building your brand inside of the organization as a trusted business partner starts today. And it starts with identifying those people who you're going to be aligning with in creating those relationships will help you collaborate quickly within the organization. It'll help you stay focused on task, make decisions faster. I think as an organization. And for instance, I'll say, you know how the, the outcome that I ask my team from this exercise is. Okay, Meredith, Tax has a question for Treasury. Do we want them to say at the end of the day, oh my goodness, I have to go to Treasury. Oh, this is going to be a long conversation. I may or may not get the outcome that I want. Or do you want the narrative to be written as I'm going to go talk to treasury today, I know that we're going to come up with some really collaborative, really cool, unique solutions because I know that treasury is my trusted partner, partner in the organization. And I know them. I know them over the 20 minute coffee that we had the other day, I'm starting to get to know them or now that we're collaborating together, we're getting to know each other and getting to know our objectives within the organization. What's driving treasury versus Tax, how do we meet in the middle or how do we devise outcomes that are, you know, achievable for both of us? But I think that exercise has been really important. Important for me. It's been important for my team, for the new folks that come on my team, and I actually continue to do that today. Identifying. If somebody comes in new to the organization, in the legal team, I want to get to know them because I know that our paths are going to cross and I know that I want them to perceive not only myself as I brand, but my team as a trusted business partner.

Thank you so much. I've had to work on my personal brand in recent years. I had a business coach and she said to me, mike, you need to tell people the stories that you hear from treasury professionals. And I was a bit nervous about doing it. She said, right, take one bit of advice. Put it in the newsletter, which I now do every week, and I've done it for like 40 weeks in a row. And then we do a mini video on a Friday, and it's just about that. Now, one of the stories. Stories relates directly to what Meredith talked about, because you guys are going, yeah, but she's the global treasurer of NTT Data. She picks up the phone, they all say, yes. The fact is, what I had was some feedback from a treasurer because he had a Treasury associate in his team. He said, look, I'm wanting to build my brand, but I'm like an associate. Some of you guys might be at that level. And what he did, he said, go and have a coffee, go and invite these guys. Here's my card. Go to the canteen and invite some guys for a coffee in different teams. Brilliant. He got there about 10 weeks later, came back, said, how's it going? He said, well, it's kind of right. It's not going that much. You know how many coffees? Well, I've had three over 10 weeks. He went, drink more coffee. What he did was every week he went and did this. And actually, no word of a lie. It was like 18 months into his job, he got moved back to this. Actually moved to the CEO's office.

Office.

Because this. This kid knew everyone because he'd actually made the effort to build an internal network because he got the. And you went to this guy Mark and said, mark, what do we do about this? Oh, you know, this person. Can you introduce? He was the. And he was down here starting his treasury career. So that's one of the things for you guys. Now, the other bit. So there you go. The reputation, this is your profile, shows what you've done, but your brand, as I said earlier, shapes what people remember about you. I want to be known as this. And Sandra and I were just talking about this before when we're in the break room and discussing this. I'm Mike the nice recruiter and you guys want to, you know that's part of my, my brand if you like. I don't want to be known as this hard headed, you know, da da da. I'm here to give advice. This is one of the key things now I did the podcast just last week or just came out with Tony Massone, global treasurer of Amazon Amazing podcast. Known Tony for many years, recruited for him at ge. Very challenging client to recruit for as he said. And he said some other words but I'm recording this. I'm not going to say those. They were his words. But Amazon have a global brand and when we gave it back to them, they had to make a load of changes. Someone said, oh, aren't you object? I said no. Amazon want to control the narrative. Well why wouldn't they? They think about their brand every single day. Everyone talks about Bezos, you know what people think about you when you're not in the room. So you guys need to think about that. We said this last year actually we did a session about networking. Summer and I, they, we had, you know, the power of network AFP 23. 4. That wasn't the, that wasn't what we had as a working title. Things what not to do at afp. We were saying to half of the room and actually I can do that exercise. We'll do it now. So how many of you have been here? At least five or six times in the past few years. Fantastic. First couple of times. There you go. Keep those hands up. There we go. Thank you. I want you to look at the other people and go and talk to them after this because this AFP is a marathon, not a sprint. Later on when it says free bar guys, you will pay with your souls. Tomorrow morning you like have one extra margarita. Oh yeah, this will be great. Tomorrow morning you will literally be on coffee. Please give me coffee. Now you need to think about also that's going to be your reputation, the brand. Actually you know we joke about Mike. Ah, Mike's had a few biz. Yeah, I know when to tap out. I'm like right, it's time for me to go. People like really? Yeah, because I know that's it. I I'll go and have a beer at home. But that's it because I'm thinking about my brand. Enough from me talking because I prefer actually summer talking. Well she told me to say that Summer over to you.

Power of networking. I think about networking as it's not a side hustle. Right. It's not something that you do as an afterthought. It is incredibly intentional. So I told you that I'm a career advantage. So when I start a new company, one of the first things that I do after meeting with my team, similar to Meredith, I try to figure out who my key stakeholders are. And my first meeting with them is not about how we work together, it's how long have you been here? What's your story? What keeps you up at night? Why have you been with the company for so long? Like, wanting to get to know who these individuals are. And in the midst of getting to know who they are, people tend to share what they like to and what they don't like. So things like, you know, my pet.

Peeve is when people cancel a meeting.

Two minutes before it's about to start. Noted. You know what my other pet peeve is? And then they just go down this list of things that they hate. And it's data and it's really helpful data. And in engaging with these individuals in this way, when it's time to do the work now, we can get to the work of the work, but we have a relationship. We are now talking about things outside of the day job. And more importantly, if you need a favor or something comes up last minute and you're having to reach out to your friends and tax, it's not the oh Lord, here comes Summer from Treasury. She only calls when she wants something and sometimes they might not even take the call. They might just send you the email or leave you unread. And I think the importance of networking is when it's authentic and when it's sincere and when it's genuine. It is not network networking for the sake of it. Like we all are going to spend a lot of time Kiki keying later on and we know we're never going to talk to the person again. But when it's a relationship that you really want to curate and cultivate, you want to be authentic and you want to be sincere and you want to make sure that if and when you need something from that person or they need something from you, you are reliable. And they know if they ask their direct report to call Sandra or to call Meredith or to call Mike, the other person is going to pick up the phone because your network is strong and your reputation is even stronger. A couple years ago I started a new company, Surprise, surprise. And there was something that we needed to get done and our current bank group was unable to do it. Or unwilling to do it. And so I went through my cell phone and I was like, hey, we don't bank with this bank. But I'm going to call them and I'm going to ask them. That was my network. The person took the call not because there was a sales transaction on the other side of it. They didn't know that there would be, but there was relationship. We kept in touch over the years that I'd been on my adventures, and we were able to solve the problem that had come up. I think the other piece of networking that's important to remember is that it solves for problems that a system or a process cannot manage. Networking is all about relationship. And everyone in this room, that is a practitioner knows that 30% of our time is spent talking to vendors and bankers. Right? And a lot of what we need is on the other side of the conversation. And more importantly, it is outside of our organization. So the relationships that we have with our peers, being able to, like, shoot a quick text to Sandra and be like, hey, I got this hedging question. I'm just having a brain fart moment, and I can't figure out this out. Can you talk? If she's not super busy trying to figure out the world's hardest problem, she will probably pick up the phone and say, hey, some, I got five minutes. Use it wisely. But that's your network. It is not how many index cards and business cards you can collect while you're at a conference. It is establishing sincere relationships that when you need something or someone needs to rely on you, you are someone that can be counted on. You can repay the favor, and you can navigate your life and your career in a meaningful way, because everybody that is in your network is solid. The reason why they call it a network is because it's a net. And the tighter the net, the better you're going to be able to catch whatever it is that you're trying to catch. So really be thoughtful about not just getting to 5,000 followers on LinkedIn, but do you have a relationship and a connection with people that you consider to be your network work, and would they describe you the same way?

And I'm going to pass to Sandra, but one of the ways I can illustrate that firsthand was we had a slightly different panel on Thursday. Leanne had to pull out from, you know, to, you know, she. For various reasons. And the fact was we wish well, but then she said, right, you know, we're gonna say, well, actually, it was gonna be fine. We can have the great Panel, I just picked up the phone some. I said, hey, can you do me a favor? She said, no. I said, right, I've got the pictures. And she then said, yes, okay. Because she'd seen that. Yeah. But joking aside, it was the power of that network. Just saying, look, can you give me, can you give me a hand? And everything else. Now, I know, Sandra, you and I talked about the power of your network with some of the banking partners which we touched on here or over to you.

Yes. So it's also about being strategic and helping you do your job sometimes.

Not. Not.

It's not just about building the network for the next role, for that next promotion. Sometimes it's how to be really effective in your current role and how to get things done. So I spend a lot of time talking to the peer treasurers in the pharma organizations and I've developed really good relationships and I spot one back there. So thanks for the support. But it's amazing when you're having children, challenges within your organization to get something done and you can say, wow, if JJ and Pfizer can do this, I don't know why we can't. And having those relationships are incredibly helpful. Do your best to connect with all of your peers across your industries. At the end of the day, we're not competing against each other unless you're actually competing for a job. But we should all be able to be helping each other. It's one treasury, regardless of what industry you work in. So just people are open, people love to share what they're doing and they will share and they will help you, and in return, you will do the same. The other thing that I always talk about is be kind to your bank group. I see four bankers here. They came to support, I'm sure. But let me tell you, a lot of the banks come up with really innovative solutions and they will teach you what it actually means sometimes, and they will help you implement it and they will help you look good in front of your leadership team. The other thing is they can help build or destroy a career. They're human beings just like us. They have feelings. Be nice, be kind. I wouldn't be sitting here potentially if it wasn't for my bankers. In 2019, Bristol Myers Squibb acquired Salgene. It was the bankers talking to the treasurer at Bristol Myers Squibb and saying they have a good team at Salgene. That treasurer then called the former treasurer at Salgene. I hear you have a good team. Can we talk about your folks? I get a Text message. How would you like me to lean in? So I thought about it. I was. And I told the story at treasury today. On Wednesday, I was on spring break in SeaWorld with my kids. I said, I'll be in the office tomorrow. Let me think about it. I was watching Shamu fly and I go, oh, I'm going to ask for a VP role. What do I have to lose? So I went in the next day, I said, I'd like to have a VP role, an assistant treasurer role, and I will consider coming to bms. But that conversation may have never happened if it wasn't for the bankers speaking about us in the background without us ever knowing. So just keep it in mind, we all help each other. Treasury is a very, very, very small world. Inevitably you will cross the same names. So be nice and just do your best.

So just before we pass to Meredith, in about 10 minutes time, you're going to get to ask questions of these amazing ladies. I'm not answering questions because I'm just too busy. But joking aside, I'm going to get Meredith to talk through, but I want some questions for you guys because when did you last get an opportunity to ask these three amazing ladies? Over to you, Meredith.

One thing, I will point it out and I love your story, Sandra, in terms of talking about your ask, right? And one thing that I'll talk about here is you did it through courage, right? I mean, how many, how many of us have been sitting here having or having thoughts of, gosh, I really want to take that risk. There's this opportunity or this project that I really want to work on. I think I really have the, maybe I have the experience, but it could be a really great opportunity and you shy away. How many have felt, I mean, raise of hands. How many have felt imposter syndrome, that there's an opportunity out there, but you just don't think you're good enough. I can't tell you how many times in my career where there's been an opportunity that's been presented to me to take a different role or move to another company at a greater role, and thinking to myself, gosh, Meredith, are you ready for that? Can you do that? I mean, even the current role that I'm in, in terms of being a treasurer of a $20 billion multinational organization, I said, Wow, I only have 28 years of experience. Can I do this? Silly of me to think that, but we all face these challenges and we all, we all come across these opportunities, but if we don't lead courageously and if we don't take the calculated risks that make sense in our career, we'll never know. We'll never know what it would have been like to be that leader or to have learned something different or to put yourself out there. And I think this all comes back and relates to our brand and leading and branding ourselves through being courageous and taking those kinds of calculated risks that make sense in our career. Stop doubting yourself because we all, you know, take, take these big steps or put these tools in our toolkits to advance our career to what our objectives are by taking these risks and being courageous and creating your brand that you're thought of when the, you know, when that big project comes or when that next big, big role comes or, you know, they're thinking of you. So you have the ability and you have the tools to do it. But you need to brand yourself through courage.

Our podcast is sponsored by tradeweb. Tradeweb are an independent platform trusted by thousands of treasury professionals worldwide to manage their short term investments. One global treasurer recently told me it was one of the smartest technology decisions they've ever made. No license fees, rapid setup and tangible returns. If you're looking for a smarter, simpler way to manage your liquidity, then head over to Our Partners page treasuryrecruitment.com forward/partners. Find out much, much more. Now let's get back to the episode. So I said earlier actionable tips. So these are some practical tips, having that strong LinkedIn headline, but sharing achievements, insights, lessons you've learned. When you get back to the office in a couple of days time, sit down with your team, sit down with your colleagues and say, ah, I picked up this tip or share it around. You're really good at doing that, so embrace it as well. One of the other tips there is there are some very questionable LinkedIn photos out there. There are some very good ones out there. They do have a studio here, if you're looking at it. And people laugh and say this is my LinkedIn profile. And they laugh, that's the time to visit the studio here. But joking aside, again, I got asked by one of the audience members in New York and they said, look, but what's the difference between humble bragging or bragging and achievements? I said, well, you've answered your own question. If you think you're stepping into that, oh, look at me, aren't I great? Then you're bragging. But if you're looking at what you've achieved and what you saved the company and what your team has done and I said, this is where AI can step in. He was like, oh, well, yeah, but what about security? I said, well. And confidential? I said, well, don't put confidential stuff on there. You're answering your own questions. I mean, I didn't really need to be there, but I said to him, look, you can put it in there. This is what I've done with the team. This is what I've done. This is what I've achieved this month, this week. Put it in there and then you can add it to your LinkedIn profile. It doesn't have to be specific and you don't need company information like that offline. There are a host of different AFP chapters and things across the country. Put your hand up, see if you can help out, see if you can mentor. You've got your internal, external. When you, as I said earlier, go back to. When you go back to your team, you. You can actually say, hey, I learned this. Should we just have a discussion about it? Should we have a coffee about it? More coffee? That preparation and polish as well. You. Then you can build your own advisors internally so you can have champions for yourself, your boss, your colleagues and things. They will help you as well. So we're going to go to Q and A in a moment. The other couple of. Here we go. Practical. Just have a thing now, obviously some are prepared for this. And I said, look, what are the four words and. But think about for you guys? Have a think once you've gone out here later on, what are the three words that you would want people to say about you or you would want them to think about? What do you want to be known for? And that's not speed drinking or having the beers and having a bit of a laugh. Oh, yeah, he was really good. No, but actually, what do you want your brand to be to people out there now? The 30 seconds. In fact, Sandra and I were just talking about this before as well. What we don't want when you come up and talk to me or when you're, you know, mingling around for the mixer later, I don't want you, hey, Bob, I'm the Treasury Manager at xyz. I don't care. What did you do, Bob? What? You know, go up to them, say, ah, we implemented the. This solution and we've saved this much. Oh, hang on. That's a. That's a conversation starter. Short elevator pitch. The time it takes. So people then want to engage with you because you're interesting. You guys are interesting. I promise you. I talk to you all day. Long. So quick. Q and A. So let's get some questions, please.

Sorry, Mike, can I add something real quick? I was something that came to my mind as you were talking about storytelling, too. And I don't know if I had a chance to share, but storytelling is so important in terms of how you create your brand. And I'll give you a really good example. So I was presenting to some finance folks, some weren't finance folks, and I had to give a presentation on debt management. Now, the finance folks in the room completely would have understand all the graphs and pie charts and everything that I was putting up there and the numbers and everything behind it. But I knew when I was talking who my audience was, that there were folks in the room that weren't going to understand that and probably were going to tune out in the first 10 seconds that I started my conversation. So I had to understand my audience and I had to tell a story. And the story that I told about debt management wasn't rambling off the numbers on the page, each page. And it had a purpose and it had a message. And it wasn't necessarily just the data, it was the story behind it. And I think that's really important. As you're creating your own brand, tell your story. And it's not only who you are and what you've done, but you can take this, I think, example to any conversation that you're having, and whether it's with people who understand the same or have the same technical background as you or folks that don't, but be able to tell the story, that's compelling. And I had the best, you know, afterwards, after the conversation, someone else who wasn't a finance and technical specialist came up to me. They said, meredith, that was the most interesting conversation on debt management. I had no idea. But you explained it in a way that made me interested in it. But again, tell your story and understand who your audience is and be prepared, because the more that you're prepared, the more more that. The more questions you'll be able to answer, or the more in depth or, you know, the higher the level in terms of you can go 30,000ft, then you can get down to 10,000ft, depending. So understand your information and be prepared.

Cool. So I do want people queuing up for that microphone because you've got to build a brand and everything else. We'll come to that. But one of the questions, and I spoke to somewhere about this in New York, I was asked why. One of the audience members came up and they. One of the questions they said was, but I'm a Treasury analyst. I've only got a couple of years experience. Where do I start with my brand? What are the tips you would give? I mean, you've all given some tips. Maybe I'll go along the panel, actually. If you're quite early in your career, how would you, you know, what advice would you give?

I would tell them to start by listening to your podcast.

Yes. Treasurycareercorner.com.

Too. When I create it.

Yeah.

In all seriousness, I do think that you're very intentional about who you choose to have on the podcast and you learn a ton about treasury, but you also get a feeling for these individuals. Brands like I worked with Tony Missone, we worked together at ge. I have a cup of GE alum in the audience. And so we all know his personality. And so seeing him be the treasurer of Amazon makes total sense. It's on brand for him. And so you get to glean a little bit of that as you listen. In real life, the first thing that you can do with your brand is to have people see you as curious. So you are owning the fact that you're only two years in. And most of us did not learn treasury from a textbook. We've learned on the job training. So finding senior people in the organization or people who have evolved in their treasury career and just start asking them, what kind of jobs do they have? Some, some were accountants before, some were in FP and A, some were in marketing and publications. Understand how they got into the space, how they navigated it. Find people like my panelists. And here, you know, it took you 20 years, which is not a long time to go from entry level to leading a division and organization. But how did you drum up that courage? When did you finally feel like you had the right to ask for something? So start with curiosity. People will bring that up in calibration sessions. If there's nothing else to say about you. They'll say, man, that so and so was really curious. Every time I see them, they're asking a question and they're taking really positive feedback. So I would start with curiosity. If you have nothing else to work with from a brand.

Sondra.

Yes, I would agree. Seek to learn. Learn as much as you can about different areas when you're younger in your career, because as you get older, you're kind of going to be on a path to something, whatever that is. But when you're young, you have really an opportunity to learn all of the different functions within finance. Jump on that opportunity. Like she said, Be curious and work really hard. That gets noticed. You know, we have a lot of millennials around us and the hard workers and the ones that are really embracing the technologies, those are the ones that stand out. You know, it's about supporting your team and helping your team grow, and then you will grow along with them.

There it is.

I think I would end the way that I started in terms of thinking about those few words that describe. I would say most definitely a trusted. The key word is a trusted business partner to your internal and folks that you know internally and externally. Think bold. Be bold. I said I agree with curiosity. Be curious and take those calculated risk and take them now.

Cool. Any questions from you guys? Oh, yes, we do. Thank you. That's it. So a bit closer to the microphone. So there you go, please. That's right. Right. Take it out. Yeah. Perfect. Now, Right? Who wants that? Yeah, Meredith. Love it.

I would say be a good listener.

Right.

In a very highly stressful time, whether that's a project, a deadline or something there, when tensions are running high, sometimes, sometimes conversations can go in the wrong direction. Right. So being a good listener can really help because if you're a listener, then you're, you know, you're a better partner. And I think that that drives, you know, better outcomes.

So I'd say, and I have many stressful times, keep your cool. So you have to keep your cool and think the through all of the alternatives and just talk to the people around you, ask the questions, be inclusive. Sometimes something that is stressful can have a resolution within five minutes if you really think through it and you come up with a different solution.

I'd say my response is a riff on both. It is being thoughtful about whatever this high stress situation is and if it is cross, cross functional. Look around the functions and figure out who's missing. Because sometimes that is a component of the response or the solution that may be missing, like be the person to identify. We might need tax in this conversation to opine so we can have a better decision, understanding that someone's going to be annoyed that you're adding more people to an already stressful situation. But that helps your brand because people know Sandra's always going to make sure I'm plugged in, even if I'm not. Top of mind for everyone else.

And what I'd add to that as well. Early on in my career did very well was, you know, expanding and everything else, but I was letting the stress get to me. Now, this is back in the days when you could listen to audio tapes I was listening to this, a really good one. And actually this guy said, there is no such thing as stress. I'm like, pretty sure I know you, you know, but he was great, actually. He was a trainer for the SAS and everything else and seal teams and things like that. He said, there is no such thing as stress. Stress is your reaction. You choose that reaction to pressure and that's within your realm. And I was like, oh, okay. And actually he wasn't just BSing, he was actually, he was true. And I then chose my reaction and there was lots of stuff coming at me and I was like, I'll choose my reaction. So that's one of the other bits that there will come a point where you might find yourself in a pressured situation, where you go, actually, I'm out here, that's when you talk to me, that's fine. But joking aside, one of the key things is you choose that and how you then react, that's within your realm and things. So, you know, taking time out. And people have said to me about this conference, they said, I was at the Euro Finance conference and they said, what's the difference? I said, you can't say the carpet here because there are so many people. So when you get to a stand or when you get there, look for the closest exit. Not to run away, just to give yourself some time. This is what. And I got that from summer last year, that you will need to over the next couple of days, otherwise particularly we will find ourselves talking solidly for three days. But you need to take some time for yourself as well. Now we've got another question which is great, Please, you can do it.

Do you have a pivotal with your career where you're like, aha, I can do this.

I can be a structure.

I don't feel like, are you sure you're going to let me?

Sure. So back at Celgene, they use the treasurer role to just develop future CFOs. And I think I had a banker refer to me in a conversation with a CFO as the engine that kept things running. I said, oh, well, if I'm the engine, when do I get to run the show? Because clearly I'm supporting all of these treasurers, but I'm doing all the work and I'm here at 1am every night. So it got to a point maybe eight years ago that I was like, when's my turn? And I asked and asked and I got no, I got a lot of no's, but you just, you can't give up and you can't listen to the negative voices. I was actually told, you can never be treasurer of a $90 billion company. That kind of hurt. But I became treasurer when we were a 150 billion dollar company. So I said, well, take that. So you'll just know in your heart when you're ready.

Yeah, I think for me it was, as I said, I've told Mike this story before. Every step that I've made in my career, whether it's to a new role or to a new company, has been very purposeful. And it's been putting another tool in my toolkit to get to my goal of what was to be a treasurer. And whether it was taking a role that is very deep in cash management, for instance, or stepping into capital markets and foreign exchange that I had never done before and leading it, or then becoming broader and becoming an assistant treasurer.

Right.

Those steps that I. Or going, for instance, to a company that was more multinational than I was at today or was private versus the public that I was at the time. So each tool that I put in that toolkit, I think led me to the point where coming to NTT Data and the opportunity that was presented to me to be a treasurer, I thought to myself, I got this, I got all these tools in my toolkit. They're exactly what I need. And at this point the opportunity is presented to me. And gosh, yes, I so had imposter syndrome, thinking, wow, this is a really large organization and they're going to. Everyone's going to look to me. But I knew that with those tools, I was ready.

Sure, I would say I didn't have a really big moment. I did a lot of work over a long period of time and I finally wrote it down. People ask, what's in your five year plan? I'm like, I don't know. I just kind of do whatever's next and figure it out. And one day during my morning routine where I write down my affirmations, I finally wrote down, be a treasurer of a global publicly traded company. And the minute that I wrote it, I was like, are we putting this in the universe? Like, I'd never said it to anyone. Like, I met with tons of executive coaches and we dance around what I wanted to do next. But I never said it out loud because it felt like a jinx. And writing it made me go through every day thinking about this brand. What does a treasurer of a global Fortune 500 company. Company look like? How does she show up in email? How does she show up in meetings? Is she activated in afp. Is she trying to play in the Euro finance game? And so writing it made it feel very real for me and it started to manifest. People started seeing me as such. I started getting calls from recruiters, hey, we got this treasury job. Okay, Me, you think I could do it? All right. So it just really writing it down, I think helped and starting to embody what I believed it looked like and mirroring from others that I thought did it well.

And I've been grateful for the positive feedback about the podcast, but for me, one of the key things is ask yourself the question, why not? You know, you've seen it, why not me? You know, so we talked about, actually Meredith with PayPal and things like that. Chan, who's now there, who's global treasurer. I saw him, he did an open letter on LinkedIn and I thought, wow. He talked about moving back from Singapore, taking the global role. I thought, drop him an email on LinkedIn, he's never going to read it. Nothing. This is never happening. Dropped him an email. Next morning, I even showed my wife, yeah, podcast, whatever, go back to the shed. But I show her the podcast. I went, he said yes. He walks his dog and he listens to my podcast. You don't get. I'm like. And then, then follow it up later on. We were approaching episode 400. We're about two months away. I thought, Tony Misson, global treasurer of Paper of Amazon. I know him. I've known him since GE days. I'll ask him, worst case, he says no. And actually within a day or so when, yeah, I'll do it. I'm like, oh, goodness. And a few other words. And now he's been on the show and it's, you know, because I love talking to you treasury guys. I love. I geek out on that stuff. We've got one more question or time for one more question. And then we'll give you some lovely takeaways from this, our audience, from our speakers. Thank you. A question for the panel. Have you ever been in a situation in your life where you had to reset your graphics or baseball direction that you didn't like it to go and then you have to reset?

Yeah. It's called a career limiting move. Yep, I've made one. I've made several. Thankfully, they were earlier in my career.

And.

And a large part of it is owning it and just acknowledging that this is going to require a huge pivot. I am going to have to figure out how to fix this. But it's being authentic, right? If you've damaged a relationship Go fix that relationship. Because a part of your brand is, again, like I said earlier, how people receive you. So if you're on a campaign to right, you're wrong and you have. You haven't addressed it with this person. Trust and believe they are throwing dirt all on your name all the time, and you will never come out of it. So fix, repair the relationship if it's with someone directly, if it's broader than that, and you check in with your cabinet, like whoever you see as your trusted advisors, especially at the company, and they say to you, hey, the culture here doesn't really respond to this. Well, you got to go find another job. Like, it could be as simple as that. But if you are having to move companies, then you want to be really clear on who you show up as on day one. And that brand build starts over from there. There's a lot in between those two scenarios, but I don't know how dire the straits are.

And I. I would just. I would just add to that real quick similar situation. So I was in a part of my career where I was gaining confidence. I was getting traction and everything. But the way I was going about driving results, I can just say in my Texas slang, I was like a pit bull on a pork chop, and I was a bulldozer. And whatever got in my way, I would just bulldoze it over. And I didn't care how I did it. The fact that I got the result was the only thing at that point that mattered. It was not very. It wasn't pretty sometimes, and sometimes it created a little bit of fresh friction. But I got some great advice from a mentor I had at the time. And he said, sometimes, Meredith, you catch more bees with honey. And I said, what? I mean, I'm getting. I'm driving results. What do you mean? And he says, but sometimes you're doing it in a way that may not create the relationships that you want. And I said, let me take back and think on that. And I did. And I started to approach again, thinking about my brand and trying to move that in a different direction. And I did. And I thought about that, and that was one of the best advice that I've gotten to the state from my mentor, because it changed the trajectory of my brand, and I was able to quickly pivot and I was able to drive still the results that I want. And I'll still say to you, I am still a bulldozer today, but I do it in a way that is very collaborative. And at the end of the day, both parties feel like they've won and the results are still there. But I do it differently.

So I'm incredibly blessed in my career. I can't say that I've had to ever really change or pivot. I have been in situations where I have had some challenging managers and challenging people on the team. And you lose part of yourself when you're so busy just trying to survive. You lose a little bit of the drive to really deliver that 150%, to really, truly be authentic. You just end up in this survival. And I've had that a couple of times in my career. And someone right there knows one of the folks I'm talking about and somebody right there knows another person that I'm talking about because we've all lived the same individuals. So don't be those individuals, please, because you destroy culture.

Cool. Now, you are going to get to be able to ask the ladies further questions after the session, but we'd like to run to time so we do our takeaway. So summer for you, that's building a brand.

Build a brand that's trusted, a network that's genuine, and a reputation that stands on its own. That combination will take you further than any title ever could.

I would say always advocate for yourself and if you have a team, advocate for your team. Because don't forget, there is no I in team. And we will accomplish much more, more as a team. Always lead with integrity and for goodness sake, please be kind and gentle. Everyone has something happening in their lives, so kindness sometimes goes a long way.

There it is.

And mine just says it very, very clearly right here. You're more qualified than you think. Take, be bold, Take a risk. The calculated risk. And tell your story. Tell it clearly. Know your story. Tell it often.

Love it. So mine here is about taking a step forward. Now it could be updating your LinkedIn profile over the next couple of days about something. Take a photo or share something about what you've gained from today's session. You know, from, from the conference hall, from the exhibit hall. It could be commenting on a peers post. It doesn't have to be big, but it has to be deliberate because you choose. You've seen three incredibly successful treasurers and each of these ladies have taken small, deliberate steps. So just start with one thing this month and make sure to connect with all of the ladies as well myself. But we're going to wrap up there, you see everyone. Give them a massive round of applause, please. And there's your session code. Now you are allowed your phones out for any session codes if you need it. Today's episode of the Treasury Career Corner was brought to you with the support of our partners, tradeweb. If you're looking for a smarter way to manage your short term investments, then tradeweb's independent portal gives you access to a full range of investment products, integrated analytics, and a simple centralized platform built specifically for treasury professionals just like you. If you head over to treasury recruitment recruitment.com forward/partners, you can find out much, much more and we'll be able to connect you with the right person at Trade Web for both you and your business needs. Many thanks for supporting the show. And don't forget, if you've listened to today's episode, you've enjoyed it. Give us a quick rating on itunes or Spotify wherever you listen to your show. And as an additional bonus, if you are CTP qualified, you can actually get CTB credits. Yeah, you just do a short quiz, we'll mark it for you, we'll send it to you, and we'll send the CTP credits as well just by listening to a podcast. Whether you're walking your dog at the gym on your commute. Thanks very much for your support and we're here to help you. Thanks very much.