How to Develop Competence in Treasury with George Terziev

Foreign.

Welcome to this week's Treasury Career Corner podcast where I interview treasury professionals about their treasury careers. Each and every week I talk to them about how they've built their careers, where they are now, where they see both themselves and the treasury profession going to next. Let's get on with the show. This week's show delights to be joined by George Terzia, the VP head of Group treasury at Hitachi Energy. Now Hitachi Energy, a global technology company that are advancing sustainable energy future for all. So right at the forefront of everything, esg, utilities, industry. You know, they're right there and you know, later on in the show George will, you know, give a bit more flavor of that. But Basically they're everywhere. 140 countries headquartered over in Switzerland, employing 38,000 people and business volumes, you know, over 10 billion USD. Before we do get into the show that I'm delighted to say we share quite a few people in common. So George spent many years at Dow, so we had Gary, my 100th episode. Lovely Gary at Dow. So you know he's heard the show a couple of times before, which is great. But as always I'm gonna shut up. I'll let George do the talking. George, take us back to the very beginning if you would. You started in finance, then you the wonderful world. That's Treasury. Over to you sir.

Thank you Mike. Pleasure to be part of the podcast and thank you again for the opportunity. I come from Eastern Europe. I was studying at language high school emphasizing languages, different languages and sciences. However that would equip me well for future career opportunities. But what was missing back then as part of planned economies was finance economics and that developed my hunger to go and study at university and study finance and economics so I can hone or add those skills to the language skills and science based math and other know how that I had acquired through my high school time and as many things in life that was the right point of time due to luck potentially that after the fall of the Berlin Wall I was able to study abroad in the west and fulfill my dream to study finance and economics at International American University or University of Maryland, which had subsidiary in Germany, in central Germany. It was a great opportunity to pursue. As I mentioned, I was well equipped with the language skills so no issue integrating into the academic environment of that university. What also helped me was the science based math type of education I had received helped me place out of let's say statistics and math courses and go and dive directly and straight into finance and economics which was primary area of interest. What really shapes also future career opportunities. There is professors who were coming had practical experience working back then for the big five. Now there are only big four of them left accounting firms which could transmit certain practical skills, not only theoretical finance and economic skills. And last but not least, it was truly international environment with 24 nationalities which at that time globalization was still in its infant stages and a lot of countries in Europe or Western Europe was still fairly homogeneous. So having ability to work with, study and interface with people from all over the globe helped me develop political and diplomacy skills later in my career. I was often told yeah, you're natural on diplomacy without being political. That really helps develop uncertain skills. And during the professional career I still don't know how I'm doing that to be natural on diplomacy without being political. It seems it's been working for a.

While now with that did that then give you even at that early stage because you're seeing that breadth of I love one of the great things with doing treasury recruitment is I get to travel the world, get to see guys in the US Eastern Europe, Nordics and everything else. And it's Treasury's treasury is all different, but it's all a lot of similarities. But you get that exposure to all those different viewpoints. And did you find that that thought actually that's where you started it maybe get an intrigue about international finance and then treasury or is that when it started?

Exactly. I was looking right after university after a short stint in IT company setup looking for a career in finance. Treasury in particular mostly banking and corporate finance with treasuries of different multinational companies. And at that time it happened again. DOW was European headquarters in Frankfur, Germany and I was applied there for a job and I was accepted together with other offers from banks. But it seems Dow had the highest bid. So I was not very knowledgeable about who DAO is or what DAO does. But I said look, in finance I learned that a dollar today is worth more than a dollar tomorrow. So I go with the highest bid and I didn't regret that ever since.

And so talk us through then your because the great there was as you and I talked before the show is you then discovered as you went through that journey, you started to move into treasury later on but through project finance and things as you said, you didn' what DOW was but you walk in the door, you start to get to know that company and you know a lot of people we talk to go in similar journey and then they start to not only oh, we start to get to know the Company. But oh, Treasury.

Oh.

And that's where it came. How did it start to develop for you? What was the career path there?

Right, the career path was again at the right time entering treasury of large multinational company was very international. So that suited well my background and education background which I mentioned before. In addition at that time there was focus on investment from in former Eastern Europe. So there was a large multi billion Deutsche market at the time in investments in acquiring production facilities in Eastern Europe. So I dived directly into the treasury function trying to find a fund to those transactions which at an early stage of my career helped me develop some corporate finance skills and other know how. In addition, that was more of a let's say Eastern Europe, a central and Eastern Europe headquarter away from those headquarters in the U.S. but that helps develop the breath because in addition to the true treasury functional responsibilities as financial planning, corporate finance, risk management also and cash management and operations was fairly centralized at that time. The regional experience also gives you much more breath and reach into other finance functions, controllers businesses especially working on such large investments in former Eastern Germany. And that drew also attention of top and executive management which also helps develop exposure, breath and depth in the treasury know how.

And so talk us through the steps you made because again you did 22 years with Dow and you've quickly zoomed through those. But you started within financial planning, planning and then well financial operations but then sort of planning and then when did you start to really get your treasury or was it sort of a natural evolution from financial risk into treasury? How did it work?

So I think right, well typically in treasury the EMA started treasury operations, financial planning. So it was a natural evolution as I said with a bit more breath than normal given the original exposure and big investments focus at that time. But probably where it picks up was when I moved then from Germany to Switzerland to the EMEA headquarters of the company into financial planning and funding that really gives a much better insight into the internal funding and operations of the company and also the external capital markets which I think is key for developing treasury expertise going forward. So probably really at that time I really dived into a deeper treasury experience going forward. And it seems those 22 years passed by in a flash ever since.

And with that it didn't. I mean it was 22 years. So did. Did you have a driving ambition? You know throughout that time I was talking to the treasurer of Puma and he'd been 12 years when he got there and a bit weird for him when he first arrived he come out banking Lovely guy, Frank. And he just said like they were wanting me to be the custodian of cash. Obviously Dow was quite different and stuff but he was going to be the first treasury person and he wanted to look in many ways with the greatest. I don't want to be the custodian. That's already not, you know, he said I want to be the future person for it and things. But you went into Dow. Dow was quite, you know, as we heard from way back when in episode 100, Dow was very advanced with his Treasury. What was treasury like for you there?

Well, Dao, you're right probably at the time was at the forefront of treasury centralization and optimizing treasury processes that also created a lot of opportunities. As I said initially I focused on financial planning, funding, exposure, management, but then I had the opportunity to go into M and A, into corporate finance and project finance, into risk management and experience really the whole suite of Treasury. My goal was always be best or try to be one of the best in the area you work with to develop the depth but also try to develop the breadth through cross functional or within treasury and cross functional exposure which helps a lot then in your career in that respect. Also supported investor relations for Europe, some strategic planning development and most recently ESG and inclusion and diversity initiatives for finance which helps really complete your treasury profile not only with specialized treasury functions but also with broader cross functional experience.

Get into Dow. I mean we had Philip Sasse from Unilever on the show. It was an interesting thing for him because not dissimilar to you, he'd actually been joined in finance, did his rotations, went into treasury, then went out of treasury and actually then got dragged kicking, screaming back into it in a good way, joking aside. But what he discovered was the way that treasury could offer value out to the business but also when he came back into treasury he was helping the people inside that have been quite internally treasury focused to actually focus on the business, very external and trying to help and relationship management be very. Although they're working internally but externally, not external to the company but focusing on each of the different parts. Now again, similarly, Dao Massive Group, what's the ethos of treasury there at Dao? Because it's been a long time since I spoke to Gary 80, 80 odd episodes ago. From your perspective, what was it like?

Right, well the ethos without treasury was really having the best competencies and been the forefront of treasury know how and technology development at the time. That of course triggered a lot of specialization. As you mentioned, the Tre skills Were very much valued outside of Treasury. Also within business finance at the time MA investor relations. So a lot of treasury professionals had opportunities also to experience certain functions outside of Treasury. And the really distinguishing factor there is that treasury professionals bring for example value at risk concepts which are very helpful in investor setup. Also deeper know how of currency and interest rates risk which also helps let's say strategic planning other large project investments. That brings the inside outside focus, focus and value. Treasury, which I think is all that trend is also becoming more prominent now when CFOs and companies especially during the pandemic, focus on liquidity management, risk management. That's really where the treasury function can add value to the executive level and board room. In good times. Sometimes there is complacency liquidity is there. So it's more on the investment side where the treasury professionals can contribute a lot. And that was not an exception in Dao as you know, had a big pension plan, 10 billion or 20 billion plus. I think Gary was referring to in his last broadcast. So there again treasury professionals were on the forefront of the investment strategy for the company. So really treasury provides deep knowledge and know how investment management in risk management that's very valid by other functions. But nevertheless you're also completely right. The outside in focus we shouldn't forget. When you come back into treasury from other exposures then you bring a lot of other experience that maybe breaks the silo or the specialization within Treasury. For example, M and A is a great school for negotiations dealing with large transactions. Also there you get exposure to let's say best in class as bank M and A professionals or lawyers. That teaches you a lot. Risk management on the other hand within treasury teaches you how to trade currencies on interest rates or make decisions with little information and see the result of that decision fairly shortly after. So you really have to be able to stomach that risk. And that would add up time and still is a great school because there is a proprietary trading within treasury still permitted to a certain certain level. So that also teaches that ability investment or acumen treasury acumen to make quick decisions based on macroeconomic fact factors or market trends. And then you immediately see the result of your trade which is a great experience that contributes to the broader decision making within the company.

After 22 years with the group and I haven't spoken to many treasurers in the past or treasury professionals that have 22 years tenure with any group know that yeah, daos are global. So you can move through lots of different functions and areas and everything else but with yourself After 22 years, a lot of people move every two or three years and you've got progression all the way through your background. But that was hit it, time to change. What happened and you decided, oh, it's a pandemic, let me make a job change. I know George and I had spoken about this before the show, but to move jobs in a pandemic after 22 years with a global multinational. Talk us through.

Right. Well, that was not an easy decision to make. But put it this way, especially given the circumstances just off the peak of the pandemic times and that's a difficult decision to make. Again, I think my risk management type of skills help there to calculate the value at risk and consider the pros and cons of a switch. But really the triggering factor was on one end I had developed a lot of breadth and depth within Dow treasury and had covered most of the treasury functions and beyond outside of Treasury. So let's say opportunities probably were becoming limited, especially within the regional setup looking for what is the next opportunity and step probably at the wrong time given the pandemic. Let's say the pandemic was one of the fact that time was right, but pandemic maybe slowed down that decision to when that opportunity came across to become the VP and head of Global Group treasury for Hitachi Energy now which is in prime market market for petrification and that's the future of sustainability. I looked at opportunity, took a calculated value at risk and jumped on it despite the turmoil times of the pandemic. And I look beyond that to looking at the future growth opportunity, future development opportunities and an ability to contribute my breath and depth and know how I had acquired before. So it wasn't an easy decision to make. It was the right opportunity at the right time. A bit delayed by the pandemic or say impeded by the pandemic, but on the and it was a great decision. Now, looking back a year after George.

Tell us maybe about the group. You know we externally we see the external view of what the group does and certainly as you say, the head of the show, the sort of the forefront, if you like, of a lot of the current world events and environmental stuff. Can you give us the breakdown of the group and the company?

Hitachi Energy I'm the former Hitachi ABB. That's a joint venture between Hitachi, 80% owner and ABB, 20% minority shareholder. The main scope work on the main industry of the company's energy or power grids in particular, which is end to end electrification, transmission transformers high voltage connectors and the company is also going further downstream in terms of technology, software development, services, which is a growth market. The whole revenue and top line growth is really supported by the sustainability in ESG trends permeating now in the global economy and being driven by the global economy. And Hitachi Energy is very well positioned, has the largest installed base globally, is very well positioned to ride on this trend with substantial CAGR growth over time. Renewable energy, solar will be the backbone of the sustainability shift. Hitachi Energy is very well positioned to capture that trend going forward. Of course with that growth and during that carve out and transition period, there's a lot of demand for, as I said, treasury streamline operations and bring the treasury processes at a best to become best in class. So that was also a great opportunity to embark on and pursue.

Some of my guests, some have not dissimilar to you, but you've gone from mega major and everything else and Hitachi is a big global company. It's easy street, isn't it? You put your feet up in treasury, everyone wants to come to you. You're in an industry which everyone's oh yeah, we want to be part of that. Surely your job as treasurer is just easy. Everyone's knocking at your door. I was talking to Thomas Nydert from Kia Gen and they do testing, pharmaceutical testing and things like that. So they are like everybody was like what was that? You know, like everybody said yeah, it's nice but you have to then filter through all those coming through the door saying please, please, please. What's it like for you? You've been in amazing corporates, but is it just easy street for you as a treasurer?

Nothing, nothing comes easy in life, you know, it's easier said than done, put it that way. So by no means, obviously great company to be in. Culture is very collaborative, inclusive, which provides a. It's a great start and makes the integration much easier. Nevertheless, I mentioned in such a growth company or carve out situation there is you have to develop and improve treasury processes within a very short period where other companies have had decades to evolve and develop. So really finance and treasury was probably seen for a window at fast speed and we had to move ahead at that speed and manage to become a fully independent entity with, well with at least established treasury process and procedures, regulations, infrastructure, treasury management systems, insurances, you name it. So there are a lot of building blocks and still a lot of building blocks. But that makes the job a lot of fun and brings motivation to bring it to longer term or medium term. Vision to become a best in class Treasury. So it comes, the job comes with a lot of responsibilities and in a very fast paced environment.

And if I can ask, and I didn't know I was doing that, tongue in cheek about easy street and things like that. But with that comes, you're in a big corporate environment like you are, you've been there before but this is as you say, you're sort of starting a lot of the treasury processes. I've talked to so many people now, 180 plus on the show and things like that. You know, talk to Paul from Sabic and we were talking about cash being front, middle, back office and all the way through and this flows and things like that. But where do you start? You know, is it right, where's the cash today? What are we going to do with it? Or is it right, where are the risks or what's your priority list? Is it the people? How are we going to do this? How do you approach that if you like?

Well, you might be surprised or not, but yeah, it all starts with people. So for me the top two priorities, one is trust and competencies, right? So we need to have the people that bring the right competencies. But competencies also can be developed or learned how people have the potential and people who trustworthy and have the integrity to outperform in their role and job. So that's really mapping the organization and finding the best people for the role. So that's really where it starts. The wider the circle of trust and competency, the more efficient the organization is. So it's really the building blocks of Treasury. Now of course in terms of treasury competencies, clearly liquidity is a priority in the current environment. So cash as a corporate asset, cash management and operations, risk management, those are top priorities. But the company also is very active in engineering. It's an engineering company. So there's a lot of trade finance requirements that needed to be fulfilled, including also risk management and insurance. Risk management was on the top priority of the list.

And George, when you were looking at those people and you're looking at a variety of different levels and you talked about assessing if you like, you know, I've seen a lot of people saying, oh we do this treasury test or we do this or we do that or is it much more, you're sort of looking at the people blend. Because again I've talked to a number of guests, said, you know, at the end of the day you got to this VP, Head of Group, treasury role for 20 odd years and I've said to you, you may have had some of this and some coaching on management things but a lot of treasurers like yourself have. Have sort of got there by accident in terms of people you haven't got there. You planned your career, you've done really well. But what I mean is, you know, I then say to them right, you're now managing a team of 20 people or whatever. So how much management training and things, how much of the assessment of people and things? Oh no, I've just gained that on the job. Is that something that you've worked on or you know, how does.

First of all how do you acquire the people management skills? Obviously through experience additionally to the treasury competencies that you learn in your treasury career that's more from experience in measuring different and diverse and inclusive teams globally. So that that's. It's a great school for me in particular I mentioned risk management was a great school of learning to make quick decisions based on limited data. M and A was a great decision of managing global M and A projects and negotiations with different counterparties around the globe and learning let's say from the best banking M and A professionals or leg professionals. And sometimes believe me, it's more difficult to manage people that are within the broader team that not directly report to you. So managing the whole project team is more difficult than managing a direct report. So that brings a lot of. A lot of know how and experience and and mentorship probably wouldn't forget mentorship is critical. I learned a lot from my mentors in terms of people management does that M and A negotiations or corporate finance say know how but mentorship and exposure also to executive management boardroom large projects really teach load on how to navigate manage large and complex metrics organizations. But at the end it boils down to teamwork. You mentioned that it's a collaborative effort and it's a team teamwork. It's not a matter of individuals as I said and I think there was some videos from Simon Sinek where trust and competence is typically competency can develop but trust is. Is one factor that really it's a teamwork so you'd probably compromise somewhere to balance trust and competencies but that's a key teamwork and effort. And last but not least my principle at least in particular so I think the Singapore government uses this is the formula which is not miles per hour. It stands for meritocracy meaning find the people that are best suited for the job in terms of qualifications. P stands for pragmatism. So we need to be pragmatic especially in such a fast paced environment, maybe the 1820 rule applies. So really a pragmatism down to your feet is really key. Together with the teamwork and age stays for honesty or the trust that I was saying without integrity, honesty or trust, large organization would fail. The wider the circle of trust, the more efficient the organization.

Yeah, I love that mph, that's really great examples. And so slightly in the touch on pandemic, you know we mentioned there that you move roles within that which was brave and it's working out a tough decision to make as you say. But in terms of business wise we've got through that we're on start to come out of it. So I think that must reflect for you guys. Where are you seeing things developing now? And to just give a bit of context around that, I was asked recently, they said oh can you do help help host an episode about the development of technology throughout the pandemic. And I was like no, no I can't. Oh, why don' host. I said no, because I don't think it has. I think it's actually treasurers like George, like yourself, like we're just, you know, just coping, you know, getting through with all the other pressures and everything else. I said I don't think, in fact my observation was it wasn't developing. I think there was a lot of stuff coming at you guys having to cope rather than oh let's go next, what's next? So you know, as I say in your terms, you talk us through from then to now if you would and what, what's next for you guys?

It's a very good point. And me having lived through different times of my career through three crisis or financial CR I would call it, started with a dot com bubble. It was fairly early in my career. Then the financial climate crisis, 2007, 8 and now the pandemic. I think treasury again is the place that can weather uncertainty best backstop liquidity and contingent funding responsibilities. And that's when then organizations really turn back to treasury and say okay well what should we do? What's the path forward? And today is not different as a priority. Cash is a corporate asset. Liquidity that again was very well emphasized. Now market is recovering, demand side is picking up, commodities becoming expensive. So again it's a growth opportunity. The liquidity or cash remain king. Then of course risk management in this environment again is a key area of focus because with commodity prices going up, then hedges for commodities or interest rates or foreign exchange becomes a paramount exposure importance to preserve profitability at least within the Business for the time of the hedges. That's where typically the misconception is with large corporates, hedging is. As a matter of hedging, you have an underlying. So if the hedge makes money, the underlying loses and vice versa. Sometimes the misperception is yeah, we hedge to make money, right? That's probably not always the right focus, but yeah, there is focus on profitability, margin preservation and risk management. What you mentioned last but not least actually stop priorities, digitization, treasury processes. The question is everybody talks about digitization, but there's differences probably what people mean with that, right? Is it optimizing streamlining processes, is it really automating processes or is it disruptive technologies that are coming up in the Hitachi Energy Treasury? Probably another exception looking to embark on in house bank implementation, which brings a lot of cash centralization and optimizes liquidity and cash management processes. When I hear a lot from the market, especially consultancy market and SAP advisory, that a lot of corporations using that opportunity now to embark on digitization, be it single ERP implementations, Treasury management system in house bank is really becoming the trend for me. Beyond that is really what are the disruptive technologies that would impact the treasury and finance overall? Difficult for me to look my crystal ball. Of course you hear cryptocurrencies, blockchain technologies, but that's still to be seen what the impact is. And here from the bank pipeline, there are a number of disruptive technologies that are on the radar screen. So we need to really remain vigilant and see what is really useful to the treasury processes and what we can adopt later on. Of course, with a word of caution in terms of pace and adoption and.

With your role itself, you've got so number of priorities, but is there anything keeping you up at night? Is there anything that you're thinking? You just talk about all these technologies, you're talking to the banks and they're saying oh yeah, you need to watch out for this or this is happening or is there anything out there at the moment you're thinking, right, that's what again. So some of the listeners out there might be thinking, do you know what? Yeah, I should maybe thinking about that. You know, you talked about there the risk management commodities and things. Is that the biggest thing you think that's sort of in the short to medium term type thing keeps me awake.

Is more thinking what would be the disruptive technology that will come up. Right. And that's more of a guessing game. So it keeps me awake or makes me dream, but really what's the Core let's say maybe focus now is exactly liquidity in house bank type of setup risk management that that is for insurance risk management per se. Also you see insurance market going quite tight at present. So those are kind of the most imminent factors that I'm looking at.

Amazing George, we're approaching the end of today's show. You know, everyone used to commute but now nobody does. It seems most people are working from home depending on where you are. But you know, we could keep talking for ages about different topics. You know, we spoke before the show and actually we get right to the end. I know that you do a lot of things with the international school and you're sort of there and sort of the finance committee chair and you do a lot of things like that. You know, I know that you've. You give of your time and things like that. Why do you think that's so important would you say before we sort of get towards the end of the show?

Oh look Michael, learning is at the heart of everything. I mentioned many times learning and competencies. So that's a way to give back to society and learning and child education, children education probably close to every parent and society. So and I was great opportunity to give back to society the extensive finance and treasury experience that I have and help steer the school's investments in educational facilities in teachers compensation models that really drive best in class education. And again looking that's the cradle of the future generation. And while universities are probably the immediate pool recruiting pool for large corporates, us Hitachi Energy really one has to start as I mentioned earlier when we started our university interview has to start at the cradle meaning let's say at least the high school type of influence where really you shape the knowledge and know how of those students. And I'm really grateful that I can contribute to that. To develop best in class learning or develop at the Zurich International School individuals who can very well suited to meet the future by individual learning and character development. Not only focusing let's say on pure scientific education which is also very emphasized. We invested a lot in Zurich International School science and technology so so called STEM program which is being developed. But developing the round of character of student is probably the best recipe for success in the future. Because a lot of the know how can be acquired later. As I mentioned, confidence is key but that can be learned and developed. You have to be passionate about it. And really supporting individuals in the international schools is a great way to give back again through the prism of investment capital investments for new facilities which are just developing new educational programs or teach development and compensation schemes.

Amazing. And I wanted to include that because we talked, George and I spoke before the show and I thought I didn't want to leave without touching on that because I think it's a key and that's a big driver for yourself on a personal level as well. So George, before we close today's show, we'll put your LinkedIn details in the show notes so people can connect to you if it's right to have, you know, if you want to have them in your network and vice versa. What would you leave us with today? What are the top tips from a global treasurer like yourself who's gotten such an amazing career?

Well, there is a Swiss saying study with your or study and work with your mind, heart and hands. Meaning clearly you have to learn all the competencies with your mind, follow your passion. That's your heart and hands. Meaning try out different things and don't be afraid of failure. You can learn. If you fail, fail quickly, learn from it and move on. But that will make you a better professional. If I had to give an advice in the different stages of treasury or finance professional career, probably in the early stages. Again, don't shy away from learning. Develop the competencies you need to develop the breath and depth, I call it a capital T type of letter experience or develop the depth treasury area that you want to specialize in. But also think about the broader part of the tea, how to develop the breath and that is possible through cross functional and within treasury, let's say fertilization. So don't shy away from taking initiatives and helping other projects within treasury and beyond. That will give you a great exposure for your future learning and opportunities. So try to develop the breadth at a certain point of time also mentorship becomes very important. They're great leaders to any large multinational and other companies. So try to get a bit of mentorship in advance and exposure, volunteer, expose yourself, put yourself in the spot and you'll be surprised how many people are willing to advise and guide you and mentor you. So that's a very good tip for future career development. Mid career I would say there. Then you have to be more careful. Don't limit yourself, but look at increasing your intrinsic and extrinsic value, right? And so embark on those opportunities that increase your internal and market value. And nowadays with remote working there's so many opportunities, of course they have to be a bit more careful. Don't branch out too far away. Or maybe you could if you can bring the treasury competencies, but that's really honing your then depth and breadth of experience and let's say reaping the return on investment from the internal and external market opportunities again there don't shy away from taking responsibility for large international or multinational projects with high executive exposure. That really gives you the right attitude, connection and experience to bring bring it forward critical that stage is networking. So internal and external again that also drives future career development up to a certain point is what you can and beyond that is also what you can but whom you know to right. So don't forget the network networking with likewise professionals or other executives and that should be sufficient springboard then to embark on the right opportunity when it comes. So sometimes it's luck, sometimes it's right place. But if you have developed all those skills, it's just matter of time to jump on the right opportunity either as a global treasurer or other leadership positions within treasury and beyond. There's a lot of edited which we discussed treasury can bring outside of Treasury.

Amazing. And that's why you notice everyone. I shut up for a few minutes because it was lovely to listen to George. Just give me the best summary to take away with you listening to the episode today. And amazing value bombs there, just like boom, boom, boom. And in particular in the networking thing as well. Some treasurers I've met then treasure professionals great at networking. Some they're rubbish are doing it and they need help and everything else. So what I would say we've got a number of videos@treasurytv.com and that's where, you know, George is a great networker. You know, you can see this and you've got a great network but you know, if any of you lot need help and you think, you know, how do I do this, what do I do? Elevator pitch and all that stuff, we've got it on there. So go there. That's going to help you with your careers. Why? Because then you can have a career like Mr. Terzi over here. So, sir, amazing to chat to you, thanks for your great time today. You've been very kind. I look forward to, as you say, networking in the real world once day soon. That'd be lovely.

Thank you, Mike. Great opportunity and yeah, let's keep on networking and adding value to the treasury profession and beyond.

Perfect, sir, thanks very much.

Thank you.

Hello, it's Mike here again. I hope you enjoyed this week's show. If you did, then maybe you want to follow the show or subscribe depending on where you listen, whether that's itunes, Spotify or another great place to listen to the show from Totally Free and means that you'll be the first to see each and every week when we release a new show. And maybe whilst you're there, you could even leave a quick review. Reviews and ratings are among the most important metrics for a podcast to effectively rank. And as you can probably appreciate, the podcast is a lot of hard work to produce every week. It'd be amazing. Just take, say, 20 seconds. Leave a quick review of my amazing guests and their great career stories. We'd really appreciate it. Thanks very much and I can't wait to see you soon.