How to Develop Skills and Experience for a Treasury Career with Hailey Laverty

Foreign.

To this week's Treasury Career Corner podcast where I interview treasury professionals about their treasury careers. Each and every week I talk to treasurers about how they built their careers, where they are now, where they see both themselves and the treasury profession. Going to next this week's show. Delighted to be joined by Hayley Laberty, the group treasurer, InterContinental Hotels Group IHG are one of the world's leading hotel groups. Companies, as it were, franchise, lease, manage and own nearly 6,000 hotels. We were just discussing with Hayley about the growth of the chain that's over. Well, it's approaching 900,000 guest rooms, 100 countries, completely global, with also another nearly 2,000 hotels in development pipeline so rapidly expanding, despite all the circumstances, continues to grow. Great success story and lots and lots of brands in there. I'll get Hayley to explain a little bit more about the group later on in the show. What we'll do to begin today's show, as we do all the way through, is take Hayley back to the very beginning about how you started within your finance career and then how you got introduced to the world of Treasury. So, Hayley, as always, it's your show. Over to you. How did you first ever discover finance? Or was it through university? Or where did you start, as it were, over to you.

Hi, Mike. Yeah, I guess I've got a relatively common route through into Treasury. I've got an accounting background, so that really came about. My degree was completely irrelevant. I did a degree in physics and then went around the world for a year or so, realized I needed to apply for a job. Unfortunately, once I got back, it was probably relatively certain that I would go into accounting of some description. So applied for the graduate program at Deloitte, where I spent five years in total, did my ACA there, stayed a couple of years post qualified, had good sort of varied experience whilst I was there, and then decided that I wanted to kind of move into the. To the other side, join a corporate business instead. So an opportunity came up at Rolls Royce in Derby and my first role there effectively was like a group corporate accountant managing a small team.

Did you know Derby or was it, you know, was it.

I actually went to university in Nottingham and joined Deloitte in Nottingham. So in the area from that perspective, obviously, you know, massive local employer in the Midlands, so did the corporate accounting and sort of subsidiaries role there. So relatively sort of technical accounting. The role kind of naturally broadened out because of sort of various transformations that were going on at the time. And I also sort of went into what was called the Rolls Royce International Business, which was looking after some smaller marketing offices globally and looking after effectively the expat population from a financial point of view, but still keeping some of those corporate responsibilities and corporate accounting responsibilities as part of that original corporate accounting role that I really came across treasury properly because the treasury accounting was actually consolidated up through my corporate results. So I was pretty used to talking about the impact of treasury on P and L and balance sheet on a month to month basis with the treasury team who sat on the same floor as I did. And it was kind of my wider accounting team that actually kind of processed the treasury results. And at Rolls Royce, the impact of treasury on the financial results is very material. There's a huge FX exposure and therefore it took a lot of planning, forecasting, budgeting and actuals reporting every single month. So that's where I became aware of what treasury did really and what they were contributing effectively to the wider business.

And when you were getting that early exposure, did you immediately think, I want Treasuries where I want to be? No, that is where you are now. Did you think, oh, they're contributing a lot, but actually there are other areas that I should maybe move into with your career or did you say that was it, you were intrigued by it and that was it hooked you in then?

I was certainly interested in it and I was interested in the quite technical side of it as well. It certainly wasn't the most straightforward kind of P and L and balance sheet to have to explain every month. So I was naturally interested in it. And then effectively an opportunity came up where the previous treasury controller left the business, so that left that opportunity there. So I had the background because that's obviously where the sort of some of that control and accounting took place within the treasury team itself. So it was kind of a nice fit for I guess, some of my existing skill set whilst obviously broadening my treasury knowledge.

You made the sort of the moves up through Rolls Royce and a lot of, you know, a lot of people come in and sort of do that rotational program with Rolls Royce and people externally will have an impression. Certainly I know the group a little bit, but you'll know it much better than I. What's it like to work at Rolls Royce? You know, what's the sort of dimensions of it then and now and things like that.

I mean, obviously from a being even being on the Derby site, I guess probably when I worked there, there's something like 10,000 people on the site. It's effectively like a campus, it's Like a university campus, really, from that regard. But it was obviously I went from practice into a very historic British engineering. It was the darling of the British engineering industry, really, when I moved there. So very, very different from a cultural perspective, that was very interesting. You know, when I first joined, you know, the, you know, a couple of my team members who worked for me, you know, had both been there almost 40 years. So from a cultural perspective, shift from in practice at Deloitte to that was obviously a little bit of a culture shock. You know, I love my time there, 10 years in total. And whilst Derby is obviously the center for the sort of civil aerospace business, they obviously have other businesses as well. And that. That was what I actually particularly liked about being in treasury is you actually got to see the whole group. So whilst a lot of people in Derby are naturally kind of focused on civil aerospace, actually from a Treasury perspective, you were also talking to the marine business or the defence business about things that were going on in their world as well. So that was also what I really enjoyed about it.

And we talked about this on a couple of other podcasts about that age difference. And again, with Rolls Royce, you've obviously got people, as you say, that worked there for many, many years, but you're wanting to work along that, and you were relatively fresh out of qualifying as an accountant and everything else. How did you get the best from them and them get the best from you, whether it's on a colleague basis or maybe if you're coaching them or supervising them get through that.

I think it's about adapting to what they want and what they need, really, with all the will in the world. You can't go into an annual appraisal with someone that's been there 40 years saying, what's next? How do you want to develop yourself? Or anything like that. Because they probably just roll their eyes at you and say, I'm quite happy actually just doing what I'm doing. And if they're obviously doing a very good job, then as far as I'm concerned, that's fine. You should be making sure that you adapt yourself and you adapt your leadership style for the. For the people that are working for you at any one point in time, which can be very broad. I think that's the. That's the kind of key point, making sure that the people you adapt so you understand their needs, you understand what they want and you understand, appreciate, really, especially in that regard. I mean, their history and their knowledge, which is pretty much unparalleled in terms of them understanding their jobs and know what they were doing and therefore leaving them alone when they can get on with the job, but also providing support when actually maybe there might be something quite new or something quite technical that actually they didn't understand and they didn't have that background knowledge to. That was the key really to that role is trying to get that balance right.

You talk about there that you sort of developed your treasury scope, if that's the right way. You were Treasury Controller leading the team of five and then you were Assistant Treasurer and you made those transitions again as you're sort of growing and developing your career very effectively. What was that like as you felt your treasury building your treasury knowledge and setting yourself up? What did you find were the stretch points, if you like, for yourself?

I think as I moved from that Treasury Controller role into the, effectively the Assistant Treasurer role and took on additional areas of responsibility was actually broadening, just broadening my knowledge and experience and also getting involved in some more detailed areas that perhaps I hadn't been involved with before. So some more areas in relation to, say, front office or funding, for example, that aren't necessarily, you know, and still weren't necessarily part of my job description, but basically contributing where you can. And also obviously my co Assistant treasurer making sure that we were supporting each other as much as possible as well, because obviously our workloads ebbed and flowed, you know, at different times sometimes. And I think that. And that's where I got the extra knowledge, was able to contribute more, especially around just taking those opportunities where I could do things that weren't necessarily my job description. But hey, I had time to do them. So, for example, picking up the annual EMTN update of the documentation, because it was there and I had the time to do it, so I got on and did it. So I think. And that's where, you know, effectively it was kind of making sure I was developing myself and my knowledge wider across the whole of treasury, as opposed to the more defined role, if you like, or the job. The job description in front of me.

Was that suggested strongly to you, you should do this, you should do the documentation on this, or was it just you're someone that puts a hand up for extra work and wants to grab that stuff because, you know, it helped you further, or is it just a combination of innate curiosity or what's the. What's the driver for you, as it were?

I think that was me putting my hand up and saying my colleague was at the time was preparing the US 144 a docum documentation that didn't have time to do both. So I put my hand up and said, well, I can do. So we had a debate. Shall we do both? Do we need to do both? And I was like, why don't I do that bit while you're doing the other piece? So it was sort of similar with treasury policy work, whereby actually there were things that we wanted to adjust in the policies. Again, just down to different time constraints and different people. People just actually, really not having time to do it, even though we really wanted to do it. And we wanted to do it as a team and as a leadership team in treasury. And me putting my hand up and saying, well, I'll do it, right, I'll do the first draft, I'll write the policy. And then that took the pressure off those other individuals, so they could then review it and contribute to it afterwards. That's where you. Then you really get tested in terms of trying to broaden your knowledge. If you have to sit there and try and write a paper or a policy around something that actually you're technically not the lead expert in your team.

So if someone's listening today and they're nervous about stepping out, you're brave enough to do that. You said, you know, put your hand up and said, yeah, but someone's going, I think I could do it, but what if I mess it up? Or what if I. My boss is quite demanding, you know, quite challenging, you know, because they're under pressure as well. How did you put your hand up? You know, you've got that stick your hand up and stuff like that. Maybe more supportive team, as it were. But if someone's not in that situation, what have I saw? What did you. How did you go about that?

Well, I think for me, I wasn't necessarily concerned about messing up as such. I guess, obviously there was a concern that I didn't have all the knowledge, but at the end of the day, the team there were great. I had the wider support of that team. And actually, at the end of the day, the difference was me doing it or having a go at it, if you want to call it that, versus it, maybe not getting done at all. The team should benefit from it. And if actually the treasurer or the CFO turned around and gone, actually, we're not going to take this forward at this point. Well, it doesn't matter, does it? Because I've still learned a huge amount probably along that. Along the way as well.

And you've got some great experience within, and you were studying the ACT exams and things like that. Did you find that those really made an impact again, for the listeners today in the us you've got the afp, you've got the UK act, and across Europe you've got a number of exams. Did you found they made a real impact? Because you did very well in those. Obviously you've got an affinity for those. But is that something you'd encourage people and you've sort of said to people as well to do?

Yeah, I think it, again, I think it comes down to the individual again. I think for me, I wanted to do them, you know, obviously I came into treasury slightly later, if you want to call it that, and I think, you know, they accelerated my knowledge quite quickly in a number of areas. Again, probably in areas that weren't part of my day job. So learning a little bit more about, effectively, you know, the dealing side and the technical treasury instruments side that I wouldn't necessarily have appreciated all the different facets of in my day job, then accelerating my knowledge through doing those exams was actually really, really helpful, I think. Naturally, I'm quite a technical person and I've always done quite exam based sort of subjects, I guess, obviously the aca. So I wasn't kind of concerned about the exam format either. But I think that's a key point and I think for certain people, yes, if people want to do the exams, I'm entirely supportive of that. You know, back in Rolls Royce and currently at ihg. But also if people don't want to do them, they haven't got an aptitude for exams. If they, you know, if they literally, they couldn't think of anything worse, then I absolutely wouldn't push them on someone or always expect someone to have them as a qualification.

No.

So I think it's purely up to the individual.

So you were Assistant Treasurer, Rolls Royce and then the role at ISG came along. Maybe talk us through that move, if you would, and what it's been like, you know, if you've been there sort of four years or so. So go back, it's not that long. Maybe the move and how it came.

About and things, I mean, at Rolls Royce, I've been there 10 years. I guess I had a little bit of a feeling of if I don't leave Rolls Royce now, I might never leave. There's a lot of people that have been there 20, 30, 40 years. I mean, I was still a relative baby at 10 years. Even when I left, if I'd have stayed there, there really wasn't any sort of immediate opportunities to progress within Treasury. So I would have had to go out into the wider business, which would have been a realistic move internally at Rolls Royce. And I had discussed that and then it just so happened that just at the time that I was talking about moving internally, the role at IHG came up. It's a really, really difficult decision to leave ROLLS Royce after 10 years. You know, I had a great team there, obviously had lots of different roles and opportunities. I had a good relationship with senior management, therefore, kind of leaving all that behind for a new role was an extremely, extremely difficult decision. On the face of it. Even though the IHG role as a treasurer and the treasury team is not as compl. Rolls Royce, obviously it meant kind of stepping up into that group treasurer role. I just, you know, I knew that that would give me some great experience from an industry point of view. You know, I was really, really interested to make that move effectively from an engineering company with effectively a hotel company.

And what's that been like in terms of maybe the dynamics of the business? As you say, engineering has got certain solid and different things happening and everything else. But you know, what's been the key thing? You're oh, actually the cash flows or things that are totally different or the way that people approach the business or what's been the key change for you?

Certainly at the outset, really the culture was extremely different working for a hotel company. I think effectively, to state the obvious, the hospitality culture runs all the way through the company and the organization. I found it quite. It's just a very welcoming culture across the business and therefore I found it quite easy at the beginning to start to sort of build those sort of wider relationships. I think also in terms of the role and the team said before, more straightforward, very, very different treasury focus really internally in terms of things like gross cash flows. Gross cash flows in absolute terms, much, much smaller. But basically it means that the FX exposure much, much smaller than roll. So your sort of day to day focus just starts to shift into sort of slightly different areas and that's the. In terms of then what you can, what you spend your time on and what you spend your time doing. So obviously naturally, naturally adapt. Again, been a great experience in terms of just broadening out that treasury, that treasury experience.

What was the shape of the treasury team there? Because obviously you've got this global team, you've got UK interests, you've got us, you've got. We talked about before the show, you've got input to some of the guys over in India as well and coaching there and this, it's a truly Global company in that sense. How's it been with the evolution of treasury there for you? And then allied to that, the obvious the past year and a half of turbulence and turmoil and everything else. Talk us through those, if you would.

From a team point of view. I've got our main group treasury team is based in Burton in the Midlands and I've also got a small team in the US in our Atlanta head office. I'm also responsible for the group capital and kind of long term cash flow forecasting team sitting at Denham office in the UK near Heathrow. The team itself and the structure of that wider team is kind of relatively unchanged. I'd say from a Treasury perspective, the group capital and cash flow team, that was an additional responsibility I took on around two years ago, I think where they were traditionally used to sit as part of the wider FP and a team. But obviously it fits quite nicely in with treasury when you're thinking about long term usage of capital. Then also again probably around maybe 18 months ago, we do have a service center based out in India with about 500 colleagues. We kind of broadened some of our review of looking at different finance processes, one of which is the kind of cash management and sort of banking related part of finance and therefore as part of that I also have a level of responsibility around sort of process optimization across the group. So that includes in terms of what's going on in treasury core treasury but also in our wider service center organization when it comes to sort of banking and cash management as well.

What's been the impact, if you like, of the pandemic with you guys? Because obviously you saw it coming along and different businesses, different the airline and automotive been knocked sideways. Hospitality, how have you guys weathered the storm and what's been your role in that, would you say?

I think it has been significant impact on the whole of the hospitality industry, as you'd expect. Going back now, looking back to sort of March when obviously we kind of realized that this wasn't going to be a China kind of issue, but global issue. Thinking about how the hospitality sector might be impacted. Like you say, we're a global business. We also need to think about it regionally as well as kind of, you know, what's going to happen just in our main markets. Our US business is the largest part of our business and then we're split into we have a significant Chinese business as well and then we've obviously got everything outside of that in what we call emeaa. At the beginning it was tough. We had to especially From a Treasury perspective and thinking about cash and liquidity, which historically we've been a very cash generative company. We're not used to having large working capital swings or anything significant impacting our cash flows on a week to week basis. So we had to do a huge amount of work right at the beginning to actually spend a lot more time understanding and then trying to model the cash potential cash flow impacts of different scenarios going forwards. So like I say, because as a mainly franchise business, our cash flows are relatively steady and we don't, whilst we obviously do what I would call we do cash flow forecasting on a daily, weekly or monthly and annual basis in terms of it being fit for purpose for the business because we're not used to having large working capital swings. It's not a complex process. And all of a sudden obviously we were concerned that we could have some significant impacts driven by the crisis because we didn't know how our potential owners of our hotels would react or how they would be impacted. The impact on their cash flow, therefore the impact on our cash flow as well. So we had to spend a large time kind of modeling different scenarios, trying to understand the potential impact and therefore what our liquidity impact could be, the impact on our bank covenants and the impact on our funding and then obviously try and come up with a plan around how we would mitigate those risks if they ever actually materialized.

And how does it look now? Okay, this is looking in the crystal ball and you know, might be an unfair question, so you know, feel free to just dodge the question. Say, Mike, I'm not answering that, go away. But how are you seeing the future? And you know, we've, in the wider world, there's a vaccine. The world will slowly get back. Hayley and I had our pre call, I spoke about 2008 and that back in those days there was just nothing there. You put as much stimulus in and the world just still laughed at you. At least in this situation we're able to take steps. How do you see it going forward, particularly in the treasury sphere as well?

Yeah, I mean, I think from a Treasury point of view we've obviously taken a lot of actions in 2020 that have boosted our liquidity position and provided de risk that sort of significantly for the foreseeable future. Some of those concerns we had at the beginning of the crisis around liquidity haven't actually didn't kind of result in any of like any, any particularly extreme ways, which obviously was very good. But nonetheless, obviously the, the business itself has been severely impacted. You Know, there's lots of. There were different levels of hotel closures at different points in time. Each region as well is quite different between, you know, what happens in the Americas compared to Europe, compared to China, which obviously did start to recover a lot more quickly. Now, from a business point of view, we are set up for that recovery journey now. It's just a case of exactly when and how that, how that recovery shape pans out in the future. So obviously largely dependent on vaccine rollout and then each sort of country and region picking back up the underlying. I think from a general perspective, the hospitality industry was strong pre the pandemic. So I'm sure that once the vaccine is rolled out and we have those assurances in place from a wider perspective, obviously people will start to travel again and the business will return. It's just a case of when that will happen. And obviously at the moment, that's the uncertainty that we have, but the optimism that it will return at some point later in 2021.

Yeah, it's going to recover and things like that. And throughout this period, you focused on improving yourselves as a Treasury. I know that there was some system stuff you've done and else maybe looking at that and taking it forward. Where do you see the development of treasury per se? You know, sometimes I talk to guests and they are technology, automation, AI, all these different things. There's loads of different stuff coming. You. What are the things that you're going, right, this is our priority list, guys, for 2021 and beyond. What have you focused yourself and what have you focused the team on? You know, what are the key things for you, you think, today and moving forward?

I think at the moment, like you say, we do have ongoing payments platform and TMS implementation ongoing. That in itself will help to reduce some of the manual process. Even before COVID obviously there's always an element of manual processes that you're trying to erase at any one time. But actually, Covid kind of created even more manual processes as we needed to create additional information and different reports for management that we hadn't had to create previously. So really it will be about trying to automate some of that and generate better management information. I think going forwards from a operational treasury point of view, it's just a continued focus on that for us in the sort of short to medium term, making sure that we've tried to look at that not only as well from a core treasury point of view, but like I say, from a wider finance service center point of view, making sure that we're all getting all getting those benefits. That effectively is what we've sort of signed up for as part of that initial project. And then I think. And that is. That will. That will. Then, you know, that can drive better management information, which really is the key, so that we understand to help us going forwards with our. With our sort of cash flow forecasting as well, going forwards.

And you talked there and we've alluded to, you know, the fact you've got your different teams, you've got Atlanta, you got uk, got the service center over in India, and that collaboration between teams and different people. I just want to deep dive just a little bit on the people aspect of it, because you obviously coach your team there and you've got through this and remote working and all those things. But when you're recruiting people, when you're looking at people, what is it you're seeking? And again, this is for the people listening today that are going, if I want to work for Hayley, a really leading treasurer, what is she going to be looking for on my. On my cv? What is it you're looking for from people? Is it someone with a similar background to yourself or different background? What are the key things that are important to you?

All of my. I guess the main roles that report to me are quite different and require different skill sets. So there is obviously always the technical element of any role and looking for that experience, but also in the past, about to start trying to recruit any person for our US team. Actually, depending on exactly what the role is and where it is, it's not always possible to recruit someone with sort of the perfect technical background either for any of these roles. From my point of view, quite a lot of the time it's more about the general skill set that that person has and their ability to learn, and their desire to learn, I guess, and their desire for that job. So they are. If there are elements of their background that can be adapted into a Treasury role, or they're bringing something that's beneficial to the role that someone else might not have brought. From what you might say might have been an ideal background in theory, then I think that that's always important for the wider team as well. So I think I'm quite open. It really, really depends on the role and it depends on the technical gaps that we're trying to fill. Treasury can be some quite diverse roles within treasury got the bank relationship piece as well as maybe understanding the intricacies of cash management. So quite often I think you're trying to find some relatively broad people to fill some of those roles when you're.

Doing that, when you're assessing them, obviously you're starting with a blank piece of paper, literal or a CV and things. Is there anything you're trying to pick out from there? Are you looking at. You said you can't have the ideal person, but what are the characteristics you're trying to pick out from there? Is it their study path? Is it their things they've done since then? Is it the interests they've taken? So there might be more of a they've done team sports or they're more analytical. I know it's going to vary according to the job, so there's not one broad brushstroke, but is there anything that you pick out that you know? Again, when I've met, as I said to you before the show, that I've met people at different conferences and they said, oh, you know, I want to know what treasurers are looking for in me, you know, or that I should be focusing on more, act more treasury, study more other things. What are the things that you think jump out at you?

Would you say, when you're just looking at a cv, is trying to understand the route that person has taken, being able to sort of see that path, or not necessarily obviously on the face of the cv, but through conversation be able to understand the decisions that person has taken? If you obviously need those technical skills and things like exams, obviously they're never going to hurt to have them and it is possible in certain roles, obviously they're going to give you that edge. So if people are willing to, if people do have a genuine interest and want to do them, then, you know, I would always encourage that. But like I say, it's not going to necessarily preclude you from a role and then I think it's about. And then. But for me, quite often it really has to come down to face to face interaction, getting an understanding of really what drives that person and their communication skills. Especially, you know, in treasury, where in most roles you will be trying to build external relationships with banking partners. And that is how we bring additional, quite often how we bring additional ideas into treasury. And therefore it's really important that those people can build those relationships and manage those relationships with the external banks, be that the more specialist teams at the banks or on the general relationship side. So I think that that's always important and that's always something I would be looking for in most of my team members.

And how have you assessed that in this new virtual age? Because obviously this is, that's one of the things I've been saying to a lot of people that, you know, we can't wait to get out the door and out of lockdown. And, you know, I've got a friend who's an estate agent and we were in a business group and we, you know, we were asked, you know, did we want the jab? And we were both, yeah, we want to be front of the queue because we want to meet those people, we want to meet treasurers like yourself face to face and develop those relationships. But obviously you're in that situation where you're having to assess people or trying to work with people over this. And that relationship thing, as you said, is there is key. How do you do that with a little camera looking at you in the middle of a screen, or how have you attempt to do it? Is it building on past things and just trying to leverage off those, or what are you doing?

Yeah, I mean, I think it still works. So actually, I did recruit my last US treasury manager kind of three years ago, whatever piece of technology it was that we were using to do virtual. To do virtual interviews, which at the time, actually I was a little bit skeptical about in terms of thinking, is this really going to work? But actually I found that it worked fine. It's really no different, I think, to doing that face to face, really. So I think that worked well. And obviously in this environment, we've had to keep all those bank relationships as well, virtually over the last 10 months or so as it is now, so found that doing it remotely and doing it virtually is fine.

And we're approaching the end of today's conversation. Been great, actually. Really deep diving in some of that stuff. But what are you seeing before we go? And we'll put your LinkedIn details, but we'll get to the last, you know, top tips and things like that. But do you look into your crystal ball? Not about the future, but more talk to the. We touched a bit on automation, talks about things. But where do you see treasury evolving? You know, where are you seeing the. I've talked to clients, we just talked touch there on the virtual stuff that, you know, in the past, you know, I was asked on a conference recently and the lady said, you know, where have you seen the past five to 10 years of innovation and everything else and blah, blah. And I got to end it. I went, none of that matters. You know, just look at the past year, what's happened, this sea change that, you know, it's been seen seven years of flexible working crammed into seven months. So Lots of people have had to get used to that and that now the heads are sort of settling. Where are you, when you look at, you know, you've been through Treasury a number of years, where are you seeing maybe affecting treasury finance or your general thoughts, if you like, about what's next?

Well, I think for a lot of organisations through going through Covid crisis, if they've been significantly impacted, will definitely have been effectively an opportunity for treasury and wider finance actually in supporting the business and showing what additional value they can bring and the value they do bring that sometimes is hidden or not highlighted as much when things are going well. So I think there has definitely been opportunities there. So. So I would expect a lot of treasury teams to have got a lot of exposure over the last year or so within their respective organizations, really. I think, therefore, for those teams, it's an opportunity to capitalise on that, moving forwards as well and thinking about, like you say, in terms of what are the next steps for treasury in terms of the value they can bring to the business, the discussions, you know, the strategic discussions that they're involved with, with senior management, kind of effectively kind of keeping keeping the seat at a table. At the table, I think not in that regard.

Brilliant. Well, amazing. Now, what, as I said before, what we will do is put Hayley's LinkedIn profile in the show notes. So if you'd like to connect with her and she wants to connect with you, obviously, and if you're in the world of treasury and it's good to have you and her and the network, then be great to maybe connect up with Hayley. But as always with the show, Hayley, as we wrap up today, you know, looking back over all that we've discussed, and that could be any of the levels or parts of, you know, your career and someone's looking at it again and saying, do you know what? I'd like a career like Hayley and it's going to continue for you. We're not there yet. What are the tips you would give to people? Again, we've had answers in the past about studying, we've had people about moving country, we've had a whole host of different things. But you're the treasurer of ihg. Looking back from now and backwards, what are sort of tips would you try and share anywhere 2 to 3, 5. Whatever your words of wisdom are. Before we wrap up today's show, I.

Think my first thing would be to be if people obviously are already in treasury, but obviously going backwards in time. I never had a plan to sort of work in treasury or necessarily even understand what it meant that. Well, and therefore I think some people seem to have. I basically wouldn't get hung up on having a very defined career plan at an early stage, so saying, oh, this is my five year plan, this is my ten year plan. Because I think sometimes that can distract people or not let them see the opportunities actually that then present themselves when they can be quite fixated on a particular path. And I think for me, I have just taken, taken the opportunities that have presented themselves, you know, kind of along the way, also making sure that you're making as good a decision as you can, you know, at the relevant time with the information available to you and not being, not being scared to do that. I think the someone also said to me once, never kind of say you're not going to apply for a job because you've got some projects that you want to finish in your current role because you could miss out. And actually that is exactly what happened to me just before I came to Treasury. So I almost didn't make the move into treasury because I was working on some big projects and someone told me that that wasn't a good reason to not make the move. So I look back now and think, gosh, that was an amazing piece of advice, actually. Yeah, yeah. I think it's just kind of taking even within, whilst you're within a role, putting yourself out there and forward for additional projects or things that widen your experience, even, you know, even things that are quite outside your existing role. A lot of companies be surprised at how many companies, you know, most, most teams within an organization could always do with some additional help sometimes. And if you, you think you've got the capacity to do it and work on a project with a totally different again, I think that can really broaden your underlying knowledge of a business. Can really help.

Amazing. So as you say, don't wait for that. You got those other projects to do you well. You'll catch up with them, you know, the end of the day, otherwise you would have lost out on treasury and that would have been a definite loss. And as you say, don't be afraid to take on the wider responsibility. Those are, those are two of the key ones I definitely pick out. Hayley, thank you very much for today. I know that it's been a few weeks, she's been a very busy lady in all these trying times, but I've been thrilled to get you on the show and thank you very much for your time today and look forward to eventually seeing you in the real world rather than just the virtual world. It'd be great to catch up at some stage. So thank you very much.

Great. Thank you very much, Mike.