How to Learn and Grow in a Treasury Career with Andrew Hawes

Foreign.

Welcome to this week's Treasury Career Corner podcast where I interview treasury professionals about their treasury careers. Each and every week I talk to them about how they build their careers, where they are now, where they see both themselves and the treasury profession going to next. Let's get on with the show. This week's show, delighted to be joined by Andy Hawes, the group treasurer, Innospec Inc. Innospec are a global specialty company with manufacturing research centers and operations. 24 countries. Company provides chemicals, additives, formulations for so many different markets. You've got chemicals, construction, polymers, waxes. It'll explain that a little bit later in the show. Innospec itself currently employs over 1900 treasury talented professionals globally. But again, as always, each and every week on the show, let's get more into Andy and we've known each other for a number of years, but more. I just wanted to go back to the beginning of his career and we've got some interesting tales actually about, you know, some of his thoughts about it and accountancy, treasury and then your career today. So, Mr. Hawes, take us back and how you first discovered the world of finance and then the world of Treasury. Sir. So over to you.

Great, thanks, Mike. Got into finance not via the usual sort of accountancy professional route, but left school at sort of 16 and got into it that way. So I sort of worked my way up, did night school, business and finance at night school whilst working, and sort of always wanted to be sort of involved in the running of businesses really, and joined Reynolds plc in the late 90s, I think it was, and I thought that gave me an opportunity to sort of work alongside some people who are really experienced sort of financial professionals and they. But they've been in the business for an awful long time. So they gave me really good grounding in, in sort of PLC finance and accounting and they also gave me an opportunity to do further studies. So I started doing SEMA at that point. So I thought, you know, just for.

The listeners, what's Reynolds? You know Reynolds?

Yeah. Reynold plc. It's a chain engineering manufacturer based in the northwest of England. It's. It's been going for an awful long time. It. I think. I think Hans Reynolds had something to do with the invention of the, the bicycle chain and they, they produce a variety of products throughout Europe and the usa. It's a fairly small PLC now, but it's got a very, very good heritage over the years. So it was kind of a really good business to join because I say the people who Were there, were very experienced, they've been there for a long time and they just kind of give this grounding in reconciliation, you know what I mean? It's sort of understanding the balance sheet, understanding how all these kind of things worked and more importantly, making sure it's right. So that when we produce the reports and this kind of grounding from sort of old school finance accountants and whatnot, the source said, be in good stead since then because, you know, you had to make sure that everything within that balance sheet was correct with it being.

A plc, you started there and as you say, you studied as an accountant and I know that's a backbone of some of your experience and then you've developed into treasury, if that's the right way to put it. But as you said, the header of the show, you were sort of doing that at night, counting your first interest. But then it sort of grew into Treasury.

It was really because I wanted something that would give me the opportunity to be involved in management and running a business. And again, I spoke to FDS and financial guys at other places where it worked out much smaller than Reynolds and they just sort of gave me this advisor. So that was a good way in sema, being management accounting. So it just gave you this kind of, if you look at the exams that they do, it gives you a sort of a breadth of business in general. And so I thought, okay, this is, this is great. So we get to see all, all the business rather than just financial accounting. Financial accounting was part of it, but it just gives you a whole breadth of the whole sort of business and how a business works. So I kind of like that. And then having sort of worked at Reynolds for a few years and got qualified, the treasury side of things came along because I was working hand in glove. Really what I did at Reynolds initially was the head office financial accountant. And so you were sort of working hand in glove with the assistant group treasurer and the treasurer at the time. So that was my first introduction to it. And the treasurer. I'm trying to think back, it's a long time ago now, I think the treasurer of the assistant group treasurer, I should say, went on maternity leave, I think. And so there was. There was just this period of time where they needed someone to sort of COVID So I started to do FX trades and started to do all that sort of thing. You know, any speaking to the banks and then you're looking at cash flows and you look at all these kind of things that they do and deposits and what to do with cash and it Just got, you know, I just got hooked there, there and then, you know, I loved it. I've always had an interest in, you know, in business, in markets, you know, how currencies performed. And of course those days, it was you. This is pre Euro days. So we had a whole suite of currencies, so people would be sending me in their cash forecasts in the different currencies and have it working out what we needed to hedge. So we hedged, accounted properly there. So we got an introduction into that. And you were kind of thrown in at the deep end, really. It was just case, well, here you go, this is how we do it. The person who went on maternity leave gave me some pointers, but because we were working hand in glove, I'd seen the accounting side of it, seeing how all that worked. So got a good idea and once you're into that, you don't want to let go. And the opportunity came along a few years later at Reynold to actually take over the assistant group treasurer's role, which I took with open arms. And there's other things involved in it as well. So there's the pension scheme and managing the pension funds. So I've never looked back. And it was because it was so established, actually, you got to see it from almost the best way to do it sort of thing. You know, this had been done for so many years. They'd homed it and they allowed me to sort of try and home it a little bit better as things moved on. So that's. That's how we did it.

And what was the pressure like? You, you know, we just spoke before the show there about your latest company. We'll come into that shortly. But, you know, the fact is, treasury, you know, sometimes is quite distant to the business. You know, you're holding the cash, you're doing this, but you weren't. You're in a, you know, a engineering business. You know, you started out in there and they're like really relying on you for results and everything else. We talk about cash and that's a key thing that comes into sort of the back of things, as it were. What was that like for you? Was there a knock at the door? Quite a regular basis, you know, show us the, you know, cash forecast. How did it work?

Well, I'll tell you how it changed rapidly because the financial crisis of what, 2007, 2008, changed the whole game at Reynold and it suddenly meant that we were in a much more precarious position because of a number of things. Obviously the currencies plummeted and sales forecasts, everything went south and we were in quite a difficult position. We all took 10% pay cuts and things like that to try and help the business out and cash became absolute key to everything we did. So all the hedging, all the forecasts all had to be tied in properly and then there was a weekly focus on cash forecasting. But the whole, what we'll say about treasury, at that point, the whole thing changed. I mean, but the one thing I've, as I said earlier on, what I like to do is to get involved in the business. I like to sort of get my, my sort of tentacles, if you like, into different departments and different bits of, you know, be it manufacturing, AP, AR developments of the business, all these kind of things. So you, so you, your reach moves all over the place. And I think that sort of suits my, my character now more. I think treasury changed to that. So we had to be involved. You had to understand the business, whereas before that you could get away with being in your ivory tower and just sat there. So we do the hedging, we produce the reports, we do the hedge accounting, we produce the note for the accounts every year. But from 2007, 2008, we were literally on the front line. You know, we had to find out from all these places what their, what their cash is going to be, how much cash are you going to collect, how much are you going to have to pay? Link the two things together. Then. How is, how is RFX doing? You know, how is our hedging doing? You know, what's the mark to market like now? What's it going to be? And you're suddenly very, very, very aware of the markets and you're taking notice then of all the reports that you get on how the currency is doing, how the economy is doing. Everything became really, really important. And it's a fairly small business, as I say, and therefore almost every dollar was key. So we had to know what was going on. And of course, you're looking at each quarter, you're looking at covenants. Then the covenant work was critical and has been ever since, everywhere I've been to make sure you tell the bank, this is where we expect to be at the end of the quarter. And we had to hit that. We had to convince the banks because if they think, you know, you're in control of your cash, they're a lot happier. If they think you're out of control and you've no idea what your cash is going to be at the End of a quarter and we were running quite. We had targets for where our covenants had to be, really, to make sure we weren't in any peril. And of course, the interest on top of that, because interest was. There was interest in those days. So it all mattered. That was the point. It all matters. Suddenly it wasn't so much that the glare was on us because it was on the business in general, but we were adding value at that point and it was adding value under the line, you know, but we were adding value.

And how did you maintain in a pressured situation, you know, and again, we're going to move on in a moment to your current role and everything else. But how did you maintain those relationships where, again, we were just talking about APAR before the show and some of the challenges we have with there and stuff. But what's your key? Or certainly if you reflect back on those days. I know we spoke about this before, but to. To talk to guys about the collecting that cash or, you know, you know, those. What's your key to success in that?

I mean, not just there, but so. So I've gone from there to. To sort of speedy, higher to. To Brammer and in every single place. The key is these. These intercommunic relations. So, you know, you. You are the tentacles. I mentioned you. You need to talk. You need to know your business, first of all, you need to know the people in your business who you're dealing with. You kind of. You kind of need to find who is the right person to speak to. So in a. In ap, who is that right person who. Who's got their finger on the pulse? You're hoping that the AP manager and the AR manager are good. And generally everywhere I've been, there have been. Actually, it's quite a. You know, they're. They're a decent set of people who get to that position and they know what they're doing. And so you're always talking to those people and you get them to understand what you need. But more importantly, you want to understand how it works with them. Because I can sit in my ivory tower and speak into someone and say, in Poland, and something may look really silly from my perspective in Poland, but actually in Poland, and I can sort of say, why are you doing this? I don't understand this until you go out to them and then you see and you explain to them, you talk to them about these things, then you get a kind of understanding from both sides. And actually the chances are they know a downside more than I do. They Know their customers, they know the suppliers, they know the sort of local sort of foibles of what's going on. So you have to work with them to understand that. So that's kind of where you start from. But then you've got to push to make sure that there's no, there's no slippage, you know, so, okay, you've got to give them that sort of bit of a leeway because they understand what's going on. But, but at the end of the day, cash needs to come in. So if it's, you know, if we mentioned purchasing, didn't we, before the call. And you've got to make sure that the purchasing understand the bigger picture because they can sort of sit there. Their job, I suppose, in purchasing is to make sure that whichever factory or whichever goods they require, we have those goods in. But they've got to understand also there is a cash implication to that. So just have a think about how it is. Think about your payment terms. You know, don't just try to make your supplier happy or even though happy by saying we'll agree to payment terms to make them happy. But actually it's got to be based on our terms because if, you know, if you're, if you dpo, your DSO is out of kilter, which it can easily happen if you've not got this kind of goal congruence going on, you know, so you've kind of, you've got to create the whole picture for them by treating them as adults, basically. And so saying, well, this is the impact of, of what you're doing on the, on the rest of it. And you just, you know, you keep them involved all the time. And as we said, this, this is an ongoing. Never stops. It's always, it's always gone because things could turn around very, very quickly in cash terms.

And as you say, it's about thinking about the company as well as just rolling. Yeah. And agreeing that, Agreeing that. And that's been a key fundamental view as well. But you then mentioned just a moment ago about then you made the move to Speedy Hire and things. Can you explain? So that was engineering business, then to Speedy Hire and then bring us up today.

So I've been at Reynolds for probably as long as I could. I mean, in the end I had two, two stints there, but I've probably been there for over 15 years getting qualified, moving through the business and I've probably taken it as far as I, I could take that particular role. And of course I'm, you know, ambitious. You want to push your career as far as you can. So I eventually left and then a couple of little stints. I ended up sort of Speedy, Speedy Hire, they were a business known to me, so they hire tools and that sort of thing. You'll see the wagons up and down the motorways and sort of, you know, on motorway roadworks you'll see Speedy Hire things all over the place. So they hire plants, that kind of thing around the UK and yeah, I mean they were just in a position where things have gone a little bit pear shaped, shall we say, for them. And they needed treasurer to get a handle on cash. They were having difficulties and again, it wasn't that far off the financial crisis and they were having a rough time so they just needed someone to come in and sort of firefight basically and try and get a grip of cash. And they were, they had asset based financing at the time. So first of all get a grip of that. And that meant you're reporting every single week on that. So your financing is based on those assets, be they debtors or be they physical assets, and you're drawing cash down based on that. And again, this goes back to this understanding of your cash flows. With Speedy, we got to the point where we required really close in forecasting sort of weekly and then quarterly. So you go weekly, monthly, quarterly. And it was really important that the banking group again had faith in those quarterly numbers. And obviously it was a case of we'd almost be going hand to mouth how much money is coming in that day. So we'd be first thing in the morning down to a AR to write what's coming, what's due to come in, what's coming in the afternoon. And then you're onto AP in the afternoon, saying, yes, you can pay this, you can pay this, trying to keep a buffer. So that was quite exciting. So you had this sort of firefighting position, you know, as you got further into it you could feel that the pressure would just go away a little bit, you know, as we were. So year in or 15 months in, that pressure got better and better and it all started to settle down then, you know, and again that was, that was the whole purpose of that job was to come in, firefight, get that, get it under control and just make life easier, I suppose, for the business. So they sort of knew where the cash was. And so I wasn't there that long actually, you know, I enjoyed it there greatly and I've sort of kept in contact with the people who I work with at Speedy because it's, it's a. It's a nice company based in outside St. Helens Hayward up there. So and it's kind of centralized around there and it sort of has lots of branches all around the. All around the UK and it was. It was a kind of, you know, if you know, so St Helens, Wigan, that kind of area. You know, quite, quite friendly people. And so it was a bit of a heavy heart that I moved on. But it was for the same reasons. You know, again there's career progression. I thought there's probably no more I can do there now. So if I want to keep moving my career on. Went to call Bramma Brammer PLC who, who are a company who basically go into. Into factories and do maintenance. So they maintain plant factories and they, they do. So where I work now around there's a pan European company who. Who were also in a very similar position to Speedy just. Just through different reasons. I mean just investments had gone wrong and funnily enough they. They had a huge downturn. Both companies would say this had gone through a long period of growth and so they'd sort of, you know they were paying out bonuses every year. They're doing really well just grow, grow, grow growth. And they were doing so darling to the market but both of them had an event that, that caused it to flip the other way around. And this as a result of this experience it means it's easier for me in my current job. So. So it came as a Bramma and they were probably in a worse position than SPDY were and some trying so that profit warnings galore and even warnings around covenants and that sort of thing. So that was far more challenging and the cash position was almost impossible to control. That point in time we got there the consequences where they almost didn't have a cash forecasting in place when I joined or they just sort of started.

One and with yourself. Why do you enjoy it so much? What I mean by that is why do you enjoy that? You know some treasurers would. They sort of want to sit back and consider stuff and everything else but you want to be at that fight making that real difference. Is that. Is that why because you want to make a difference to the business?

I do actually but. But I find it quite exciting. I find it. I just get it is. It is a sort of a bulls from the. It's also sort of arrogant bulls. It's just a real enjoyment because what it means you go into the company, you've got to and you've then got to really learn about that business quickly and You've got to get to meet people in that environment, in that situation. And it's quite exciting really to get it to do that way. It's quite stressful as well. You know, there's no doubt there's a, there's a lot of stress involved but the adrenaline bus you get gives you, you know, your brain gets engaged much quicker and then you're in there as a team. I mean there's nothing better than sort of backs the wall sort of idea of trying to get through something. You're all in the trenches together to get through this, to make sure the company survives, to do these things. And people, you kind of find that the best in people in those situations. And all these companies are really good companies and they've been through a really good growth. Just that something has happened that's caused and it can happen to anybody. You see companies folding left, right, center. Some huge companies and I'm sure that it's because I'm sure they've been aware of the cash position but they've not done anything about it. So this is always do something about it, think, oh, you could turn this around and it's not for, you know, you're not trying to get this, you know, the light doesn't often shine on a Treasury. You know, that's not what we're about really. You know, we generally sit there and want to make sure that everything is controlled and we're about risk. So we control the risk, we maintain a steady position but we're always looking ahead and it's important to keep looking ahead. So we. Cash is obvious but you look at all sorts of other things. We look at hedging, that's what we do hedging for. We manage interest rate risks, we do all these risks for the business, but it's all about that. But the only way to do it is to send again these tentacles out. Understand the business, know the people within the business, you know, really know your audience because you're then dealing with people around you, different levels, but almost always up to sort of directors and board level and you've got to kind of know what they want and their buy in is really important because there's a lot of, you know, you can find a lot of sort of financial directors don't really quite get what treasury does because of the fact that we should really be in the background. We should be doing all this work like the duck thing. We have feet flapping away underneath the water. That's how we should be. They don't need to know all that when I do, we'll come on to this place soon. When I do a weekly cash forecast and I will look at the variances each week they get like a little five or six line summary of where the variances are, what's caused them and all this kind of thing. But the amount of work that goes into trying to find those variances and what we've gone from point A to get to that point, they don't need to know that. It's for us to understand what's really going on at that sort of granular level. But we don't need the people above us to know that. They just need to be secure and be happy that we've got a handle on this and they can do the important stuff, make sure the business is successful. But we mustn't be afraid to say, right, I can see a problem here with the cash or if we do that or if this happens, we've got a problem. And you can't do that. You've got to be brave enough to stick your head above the parapet to sort of say there's a problem. You can't do that or you've got to do it or you can't pay them or you can't pay this, you can't pay a bonus, whatever it is, you've got to be brave enough to do that. That, that's, that's a crucial bit.

So bring us up today. Talk to us about Innospec, who the company are your role there. And again we know you make a difference on the, the cash line but you know, tell us just a bit more about your role.

Okay, well I'm the group treasurer at Innispec. Innisbec is a listed U.S. chemical company. It's a, it's, it's a big business. It's a multi billion dollar business. It has the finance space in Ellesmere Port in the UK so finance, treasury, tax, that kind of things. And we also manufacture here and we originally manufacturers of products within that sort of Ellesmere Port area which is quite a large chemical. It's been, you know a chemical plant's been there for 70 odd years but predominantly it's based. So the corporate side is, is in Denver in the US and it's, it evolved from the oil fields in the great Great Plains out there in the U.S. so we, we, we put chemicals into the drilling so that you know, it's more efficient getting chemicals out of the ground. But we add chemicals to all sorts of, all sorts of Products, so fuel, fuel specialties, that kind of thing. So you know, to make engines more efficient, you know, it's really good for the economy. We're big on sort of green stuff because being a chemical company that's really important to us. So you know, we, we've released sort of reports on our green credentials for decades, you know, and this is not something that we've just only just sort of landed on, you know, because it's important for us that what we actually do and the chemical additives that we put into things are sustainable and they're all, they're all done for the right reason. So cleaning chemicals, that kind of thing. And because of the diversity of the products, it means that we're quite protected against a lot that the, the world economy could throw at us. And you know, we know what the, what's going on at the moment with COVID and with. A year ago there was Covid, there was. Oil prices collapsed, which is being quickly forgotten now because the oil price is back up again, the variety of things. So I mean that's what innerspec is. We have a small treasury team based in the UK who we have centralized banking. So we are pretty much bank of Innerspec. We fund the group from Ellesmere Port. So we have the short term liquidity that we deal with on a daily basis to make sure everyone's got the cash they need. And you know, we spent a lot of time on again on cash forecasting, getting the right tools in place to, to be able to manage that cash. And it's, you know, because it's kind of centralized in the uk, centralized in the US and Asia and then it sort of have those two hubs that we control within, within the UK And.

Andy, you've mentioned there that sort of all the way through, you know, cash is a key thing for yourself. But I know that there's other things. You know, it starts with cash, doesn't all end with cash. But you know, is that where you see, you know, you, you've talked about you adding value there. But again we spoke the other day, we did the pre podcast call and various other bits. But I know there are other areas that you think are important. We've talked a bit about qualifications, we talked about different areas. What would you say? You know, I don't want to run out of time on today's show, but what else do you think is important.

Would you say in terms of treasury as a, as a career or just.

Yeah, well, both really as a whole and some of the Listeners today will be sort of treasury managers coming up the curve and then we also have treasurers from across the world. So we're talking to a couple of different audiences as well. But what things. Reflecting on it. We're not at the end of the show yet, but what would you say?

There's lots of crucial areas in Treasury. Every company is different. I think that's the first thing to be aware of. So, yes, we've done cash to death, but in other companies it might be really important to have a handle on FX that was really important to have a handle on interest rates. So it's a very. And everyone's different. Every single business is different because it's different sectors. I've sort of worked in a lot of manufacturing, for example, so we are buying and selling products, but also same in service sectors. I've also worked in service sectors. So although it is a different product that you have to sort of maintain, you've got to understand how the cash flows. In some cases, cash flows in very quickly and out very slowly. So the cash is always the driver. But I think it's important within treasury to have an understanding of. And I think we talked about briefly about how Treasury, I think, used to be where it was this ivory tower sort of concept that was just locked away and you were literally looking at the facility documents all day long and making sure everything was hunky dory within that spending inside, they almost like a bible. Whereas nowadays I don't think it is that. I think the key to any treasure coming forward is I think you need to be more dynamic. It's a lot more dynamic of a profession and you've got to be able. The soft skills are really key. So of course you need to have the, you know, the qualifications. I've got a bit of, you know, certificates and Monet in ACT just to bolster the SEMA qualification. So the technical side is important, but beyond that it's the ability to sort of look at things and try to evolve all the time. We all know that going forward, I mean, one of the big projects we've got coming up now is going to be automation, looking at evolving treasury management systems, looking at, in fact, how the cash flow forecast becomes more AI driven. So that's going to be a big thing and that will feed into everything. So as soon as you do, you know, if you do a. An FX transaction, it will feed through automatically from you. Perhaps you getting a forecast in, it then looks at what you need, it then goes away and, you know, produces the ticket to buy and sell currency in the future. That will then automatically feed into your cash forecast and into your accounts and into your, you know, your hedge accounting. All that's to going probably going to be done by AI going forward. A lot of the cash forecast will be AI, but someone needs to understand it. You know, it's all well and good having reams and reams of numbers lying around. First of all, as I said before, when you go to the next level, so you're looking at director levels, they're not interested in that detail. They just need to have a clear picture and they need to know that you know where that's all coming from, because you'll get asked awkward questions. You know, we have treasury committees regularly and I've been in them at every company I've been at, and you get. You'll never quite guess the question you're going to be asked. So when you're going into there, you need to have the preparation. So you've got to have an eye for detail, you've got to understand your business. I think the directors, the finance directors will have much more confidence in you if you can sound like you understand the business based on the knowledge that you actually do understand the business, because that's where it'll come from. And that's why I thought about what do I get out of it? Why do I enjoy treasury so much? It's because of that. Every company I've been at, you learn all about it and you get to know all the people and you're part of something. And Innerspec isn't. This is a really good business. You'll see from balance sheets when you look at the results that we put out on a quarterly basis, that we've got a very strong balance sheet. But as I say, all the companies I've been out have been in that position and it can change. So I spent a lot of time getting that message across my cash management, at conferences, I've stood up and done presentations that would probably bore most people to death, but it gets the point across that actually, again, how does your purchasing feed its way through to your ar? It's all linked together and it's our job to kind of pull all that together from a cash perspective and understand how it all flows, but with all these other little foibles in between.

And so we're not that far off the end of the show. But I know that it's important about people developing their treasury careers and something you and I talked about quite extensively with yourself. And if someone is listening today and they're developing their treasury career and you've covered a lot more about the business side of things and cash and stuff like that. But when we have our prequel, you talked about what you think people should think about when they come into treasury and develop. What would you say that is before we then go to the sort of top tips and stuff?

Yeah, I think be, be proactive, be prepared to learn, want to learn. There are elements of treasury where, you know, it can be, you know, there are lots of dull things. There's no doubt as with everything there are, there are plenty of jobs that we come into. You've got to the same thing, churn, churn, churn. There's no doubt everything has that. There's no career that doesn't have that. You've got all that learning. But it's the on top of that, you know, want to develop it, want to move it on. You know, if you could show a sort of keen attitude and are willing to learn within treasury actually, and because it's a fairly niche side of finance, you know, you're going to be competing with a handful of other candidates for roles and if you can just sort of show that sort of zest and that sparkle to want to learn and so want to move it on, then you can shine and the curve can climb up quite quickly. In Treasury, I said there's always a stress, I think I mentioned before about not being afraid to put your head above the parapet. It's a learning curve. I learn all the time, every week. But most treasury committees, I learned something new and they can sometimes get caught out with questions. Should have known that. Okay, next time I'll do that. And then you're always thinking about the stuff that you produce for the, the Treasury Committee is, okay, maybe, maybe we can try this. So don't be afraid to suggest new ideas. But then, but know your audience, you know, they don't want it to be, you know, a showy off thing, but just be prepared to move things on. I think people like to see gentle proven in things rather than big ideas left, right and center because again, treasury is about risk and it's not, it's not supposed to be flamboyant, but it.

Can still be exciting, adding the value and everything else. And on that, you know, so the closing words, we'll put your LinkedIn details in the show notes so that people can connect to you and, you know, your LinkedIn network and as you, you can hear guys, you know, amazing guy to know and, you know, very practical Treasurer, you know, some of the ones I've talked to treasurers, we very high level and you know, lots of things and risk and da, da, da. Whereas this is, you know, a real practical lessons from Mr. Andy Hawes here. So any, any closing remarks you might say, sir, before we will let you go off to a nice holiday period, what would you say?

I would encourage any sort of people who want to look at it, look at a, a role or a career in treasure that used to be seen as being, you know, dull, boring, dare I say in the old days. Now, now it just isn't. It's an exciting, it's an exciting role. It's definitely, definitely one that merits a look at, you know, because it just opens so many avenues and it, and the whole world is going around us now. There are so many risks, so many things that change in the world. That this is, this is a career that can, that can be very, very rewarding.

Excellent. And that's exactly why we do the podcast all the time. So fantastic stuff. Thank you for your time and look forward to seeing you, as I say, each and every week at the moment. Can't wait to see you in real life. Lovely to see you once again.

Thanks, Mike.

Thanks very much. Hello, it's Mike here again. I hope you enjoyed this week's show. If you did, then maybe you want to follow the show or subscribe, depending on where you listen, whether that's itunes, Spotify or another great place to listen to the show from. It's totally free and means that you'll be the first to see each and every week when we release a new show show and maybe whilst you're there, you could even leave a quick review. Reviews and ratings are among the most important metrics for a podcast to effectively rank. And as you can probably appreciate, the podcast is a lot of hard work to produce every week. It'd be amazing. Just take, say, 20 seconds, leave a quick review of my amazing guests and their great career stories. We'd really appreciate it. Thanks very much and I can't wait to see you soon.