How to Make Career Shifts and Role Changes in Treasury with Jim Portalatin

Foreign.

Welcome to this week's Treasury Career Corner podcast where I interview treasury professionals about their treasury careers. Each and every week I talk to them about how they build their careers, where they are now, where they see both themselves and the treasury profession going to next. Let's get on with the show. This week's show, delighted to be joined by a good friend of mine from the lovely Windy City, Jim Portolattin. Jim is the Vice President, Global treasury and Foreign Exchange at Method Electronics. Now for those of you who don't know as I didn't they are a global developer of custom engineered applications located in Chicago but founded way back in 1946. Later on in the show we'll get on to what they do and and everything else. I'll get Jim to explain a bit more because he tells it much better than I do and about treasury and everything else. So Jim, we're going to go way back when. Looking forward to seeing Jim one day soon for that beer. But we'll talk about that at the end of the show as well. Take us through your career if you would and how you first discovered the wonderful world of maybe finance and then Treasury. And over to you.

Absolutely. Mike, thank you. So it's interesting. I was finance undergraduate in college and really didn't know what exactly the world had to offer in finance but had a family friend that was foreign exchange broker. What that was is kind of the intermediaries between global banks. So if you saw these pictures back in the 80s and 90s of these big trading desks of traders giving hand signals to each other and all these boxes, voice boxes of prices being shouted over that that's what these foreign exchange brokers were essentially after about a year there I realized I was on the wrong side of the box if you will, that I really wanted to be a foreign exchange trader. So made the move to the banking side. Started off in the back office, worked for the bank of New York on Wall street, ended up taking a job on a trading desk. So I cracked up in my mind that this was really where I wanted to go. Interestingly I'm a bit more analytical by nature sitting on the edge of my seat in the trading decks atmosphere. I'm also a bit more introverted so as a little bit of a fish out of water. So I had actually started my MBA at night during over this what ended up being about a five year period and talking to one of my MBA professors about my the issue I was having, you know, good job but just really not fully enjoying it and it wasn't what I thought it would be, thankfully. He said, you know, Jim, you know, he asked me a few questions, said, well, do you like the financial markets? And I said, yeah, absolutely, I really like that. And you like finance? And I said, yep. He said, well, why don't you give corporate Treasury a try? And I said, well, what's that? And he basically explained to me that it's managing financial risk for corporations, but you get to use your knowledge of the markets, the global markets and foreign exchange and everything. And I said, oh, that sounds like a great fit. So I ended up resigning from the bank, finishing my MBA full time and then making a transition over to the corporate treasury side.

How was treasury presented to you then? This is a number of years ago, sort of earlier stages of Treasury. So, wow, this is coming to Treasury. It's great, it's light trading, but different. Or how was it presented to you? What attracted you then?

So my first role and how it was presented was very much a specialist role. It was a senior treasury analyst of foreign exchange. So this was back when, and I'm sure we'll talk about this later on, and how corporate Treasuries have changed a bit because resourcing is definitely one of them. But this was back when corporate Treasuries had probably a lot more resources and could be a little more specialized, even in smaller companies. So my focus when I went to the treasury side was strictly in foreign exchange. I didn't really know what I was getting myself into or what that was all going to encompass.

Never regretted it. You've never regretted it? It's always been amazing.

For the most part. But interestingly and just from a timing perspective, which I guess was a curse and a blessing at the same time, was when I made the move to the corporate side. It was actually when FAS133 was first being implemented. So there was this big accounting pronouncement that was very complex and governed the way corporations had to book their derivatives, had to account for their derivatives. And that was so not what I was doing on the bank side. Right. It was very, you know, accounting laden and just understanding things. And so it was really a steep learning curve. But it was very important to understand that and to be be able to fully implement what was best for the company. So it was a very interesting time for sure.

And then you sort of, you grew your roles at the group and again, you know, I don't think we really explained it. What do they do? You know, what was. So how did that then shape sort of treasury as it were.

First of all, they were located in Norwalk, Connecticut. They were a $1.1 billion company. Applara was actually the parent company. It was a little bit of a complex structure that two tracking stocks under it. One was called Applied BioSystems. They made DNA sequencers and other life science instruments that companies would use in research. The other half of the company was called Celera Genomics. They were a company that was actually sequencing the human genome and creating a database that they intended on selling to drug companies and other research companies that they could use in their development of drugs. So it was a very high tech company. It was an interesting time. This was in 1999, just before the telecom and biotech boom and bust. I think six months after I joined the company as a senior treasury analyst, my stock options were worth over half a million dollars. A funny time. Well, the bad news is I never got to cash out when the, when the price was at half a million dollars. The good news is I never had the opportunity. So I can't beat myself up. Too bad about it. They were a global company, you know, they manufactured around the globe and that's where the foreign exchange piece came in. They actually had an in house bank in the Netherlands. So after a couple years there, I approached the company, I said, you know, if I ever had the opportunity, I'd be very interested in going over and working there. During this time at Aplara, after implementing some global netting systems and global foreign exchange system, I got promoted to manager of foreign exchange. And the treasurer was willing to try to work out a swap, if you will. So there was a European treasury director, have him come over to the States, have me go over there. There's a little bit of downturn in business and what ended up originally supposedly being a two year kind of full expat package swap of the two of us ended up being, you know, planned to be a one, a one year stipend situation. So I said, hey, that whatever I can get, I'll take, you know, I'm very interested. And then interestingly, just before I went over, they came back, the company came back to me and said, well, you know what, since you guys are only going for a year, maybe it doesn't make too much sense for you guys to purely swap roles. Maybe you just go over there and learn what you can, but keep your same responsibilities. And I was a little surprised by that. But at the same time I wanted a good life experience. So I agreed to it and off I went. Netherlands was a great. What I would call personal experience professionally. It wasn't, you know, what I had hoped it would be because of some of what I just mentioned, but no regrets. But interestingly so, while I was over there and something I hadn't mentioned was, so this is about four years into my. Four, four and a half years into my time at Applara, which was great and learned a ton. But a couple of years prior I had talked to a company called Corning Incorporated, which is a big glass company in Corning, New York and they were looking for a foreign exchan manager. And at the time I ended up backing out of the deal. My wife had a good job in Connecticut at the time. We weren't sure what she was going to do if we went to Corning and I felt really bad about it. But they were very nice and professional and the gentleman the AT that I interviewed with was actually located in Ireland. So when I was over in Dublin, he actually reached out to me and said, oh, how are things going over there? We kept in touch, which was. Made me feel good because I felt bad about things. He really understood, which was great. So he reached out and he asked me how things were going and I said, you know, to be. Be totally honest, they're not going, you know, how I had planned them to come out. Planned it to be. Yeah. And he said, well, yeah, would you like to talk again? And I said, yeah, absolutely. So another thing going on at the time was my wife was about six months pregnant with, with our first child and a little apprehensive about giving birth in the Netherlands. Probably apprehensive about giving birth anywhere as it was her first child, but obviously more so in a foreign country. Started the talk again with Corning and, and it was just a really great opportunity. They were looking for a foreign exchange manager. They were about a $4 billion company at the time, which has since grown to think they're $12 billion today. And a lot of that growth ended up while I was there. So yeah, we ended up agreeing to the deal, moving back to the States, starting what would be an eight year treasury career at Corning. So I started off in foreign exchange, implemented some new hedging programs there. They didn't really have distinct, call it balance sheet and cash flow hedge programs. Implemented those when I was on the foreign exchange side. Implemented a Treasury system, F Express. They only were using spreadsheets at the time, so doing some really neat things, some really big exposures there, which was great.

Throughout your experiences and everything else, you love utilizing technology, don't you? I mean, that's one thing that. Why is that so important to you? I mean, I know it's important to everyone in treasury. You know, I'm not saying that, but you know, for the listeners today, you know, some of them I've had before and they said, well, I'm just a one person treasury, how do I do this and stuff. And that's fair enough, you know, and they might be stretched, but then, you know, one of the guys has said to me in the past, this is quite a while back, but he just said, never going to get better, but I can, if I can take some time out. And he then used to dedicate like an hour a day of just trying to get this implemented and stuff. And he did, and eventually it created two or three extra hours. Now it wasn't pleasant, it wasn't pretty, but he got through and implemented it. Now obviously you're doing technology in larger groups and stuff, so you might have more resource, but why do you feel that's so important to sort of for treasury professionals to embrace, as it were?

That's a great question. I think it changes a little bit as the situation changes. So what I mean by that is, I think when I was at a company like Corning, which was big and had resources, it was really so you could get more deep in the process, get more sophisticated, take things to the next level, really fine tune the way things were done. I mean, obviously technology can always help, you know, minimize mistakes and things, you know, that are very important. Right. Especially when you're dealing with millions and billions of dollars. But I think when you're at larger companies with more resources, you're just looking to get more sophisticated. I think when you're with smaller companies with less resources, which is the case here at Method, which we'll get into later, I think it's more just about being able to do things even at the simplest level. Right. So starting a hedge program, doing some interest rate swaps, just trying to just start and just take things to the next step, it's not going to be super sophisticated, but honestly it doesn't have to be to make a material difference.

And then as you've grown through these roles, you've coached others and things like that. When you were at Corning, did you have a team there or was it sort of, you know, you're more of a contributor. What was the situation?

Yeah, it changed a little bit. So it started off as more an individual contributor. So I was on the FX side for a couple years before I moved across the hall to what they called corporate finance, which would be non FX risk. So interest rates, commodities, and it would also encompass debt and bank relationships. So when I moved to that side of the hall, I did inherit a team, a couple treasury analysts, which was great. When I was on that side, we worked together as a team, did some precious metals hedging, did some interest rate swaps and also did a couple of debt issuances. So that was a great experience for me because all my treasury experience up to that point had been purely on the FX side. So this was a great time and we would do it. Annual rating agency trips to New York with a big presentation to take them through the company and how things were looking from a financial perspective. So all new experiences that I hadn't.

Had before and then you will then move, make the move from New York to lovely Illinois. How did that come about? I mean, we talked about this before the show, you know, as we can tell, but you're, you know, from New York and a big shift across and you know, maybe talk us through that with, you know, the next moves in Hospir and stuff because again, it's quite a shift, quite a location shift and everything else.

How did that come about eight years into Corning, which was a great experience, I wouldn't trade it. Great people learned a ton. Great company. But Corning, New York, I didn't mention this before. It's four hours west of New York City. It's in they call the southern tier of New York State and it's a one company town. Nobody was above me, was leaving treasury, nobody was moving out of Treasury. So eight years into my experience at Corning, after learning a ton, I was still a manager level in Treasury. You know, I had some lateral moves. You know, I was in fx, went to corporate finance, came back to fx, I said to my wife, I don't want to, you know, our kids were in first grade and third grade at the time. I said, you know, I feel bad because my, my parents never actually uprooted me when I grew up in New Jersey. But I said, you know what, I really don't want to be a career treasury manager. I think I can move on to some bigger and better things, but in order to do that, we need to go somewhere. So I started looking a bit and actually a mutual banker that I dealt with at Corning told me about this company in Illinois, in Lake Forest, Illinois, called Hospira. They were a pharmaceutical company. They were about four and a half billion in revenue. And they were looking for a manager of capital markets. And you know, ideally it would have been a move up. But I looked at the role and it looked like a really great fit because it had the capital markets piece, it had the effects piece. You know, it just seemed like it was good. It was also in, you know, the Chicago metro area. So, you know, God forbid I got in the same situation again where, you know, something happens at the company and I need to, to look for another job. I'll be in a large metro area so, you know, I wouldn't have to uproot the family. So I said, okay, maybe, maybe this is worth looking into. So made the trip out, visited the folks and you know, it seemed like a really great deal. So I accepted the role. And interestingly, about a week or two after I accepted the role, I had given my notice at Corning and before I left I was one at work, I was talking to the banker and the banker said, oh, did you hear? And I said no. What are you talking about? And she's like, oh, you didn't hear? I said no. And she goes, well, the at that had hired me had resigned. So I said, oh. I said, well, I better call them and make sure that they still need me, make sure I don't need to go back to Corning and say I was just joking. So I immediately got in touch with the treasurer at Hospira and said, you know, I heard this and I'm a bit apprehensive now. I just need to know that you really do want me to come. And he said, jim, you know, absolutely. He said, if anything, you know, this is going to be much more of an opportunity for you here, so we absolutely need you. And you know, he talked me off the ledge, so I'm glad I made that call and made the move. It worked out great. About a year and a half later I was promoted to director and that proved to be a really, really good move.

And just on that, because there'll be people listening to today and similar situation should they make the move. It's not down the road. It's like this is up kids, wife, everyone pack up the U haul and we're across. What advice would you give to other people? You're a treasurer, you de risk process, you hedge your risks and everything else. How would you in a career sense give that advice? Looking back now, is there anything that, you know, was the convincer for you? Was it like actually no, that location, the job, the everything else. How did you sort of, in the more holistic sense of everything else, how did that work.

I'm not one to judge anybody's decisions but for me, you know, I mentioned it a little bit that you know, my upbringing, my father, you know, my mom was a stay home and mom, my father worked, he worked the same job his whole career. So it never, never moved. And so that was important to me. Now as I mentioned, unfortunately I had to move my kids. But I basically said to myself, I really don't want to do this again. So for myself, moving to a metro area, whether that be Chicago, New York, it had to be a major metro area. That if something were to happen and it did teaser alert there and I did need to find a new job.

Don't tease this lot listening today. We've already planned this call. All right. I don't want them to them to. Wow, Mike just discovered that you did this right? That's what we don't want to show these guys behind the scenes. We've already had a call about this. You'll find the first round of drinks now. But anyway, Back to you Mr. Guest. Carry on.

So it had to meet that criteria just being in a big metro area and you know, it was very, I found the metro Chicago area very similar to the metro New York area. So up in Lake Forest where Hospira was and where, you know, I live now, I found that, you know, very similar to northern New Jersey where I grew up. So that you know, that was comfortable and you know, the job is comfortable. So I think it's, it's a package deal and I think you just need to be aware. Conversely, you know, when you go to a one company town, that could be great, right? But I think you just need to know that the job is going to be the job that they give you and if you ever not happy with it, you're your only choice is going to be to get up and leave. So I just, I just couldn't put myself in that situation.

You're de risking as well because you know, I met Jim many years ago through the Windy City summit and you know, and the tmac the guys there and it's great. We looked at years ago sort of trying to establish ourselves in the New York region. But this is, you know, bonfire. You know, there's too many people and it's trying to be heard in that noise. Whereas went to Chicago, fell in love with the city, go there in the summer it's blooming cold and I've been in the, I've been in the winter, it's blooming cold. But you know, one thing I discovered great, as you say, great community of treasury professionals. So it's for you as a Treasury professional. Yeah, you're de risking that because there'll be other opportunities there as well, wouldn't that? So that's what you did.

Correct. And yeah. And you mentioned one thing I should mention a little bit. So when I was at Hospira, I did start participating in the Treasury Management association of Chicago, TMAC as you referred to. And they do host a Windy City Summit treasury conference every year. So, you know, I was able to get involved in the organization, you know, ended up being on the, on the board of directors, getting a close knit group of friends that are all in the treasury community who, you know, Mike, from, you know, visiting us often, which is great. So, you know, I didn't know that about that organization at the time of the move out here, but it definitely has helped me, you know, you know, in my career.

And I'll also do a quick shout out Northwestern. I studied at the Kellogg School. Brilliant school. If anyone's thinking about doing anything, I just love it. And that's. That certainly helped. And so you made that move and you were there with Hospira. And then a couple of takeovers later and some interesting. But talk us through, give us a quick run through that because I don't want to run out of time today but because I want to get some of your views about treasury and then we, we could just talk for hours, but there's only so much time.

Absolutely. Just real quick. Yeah, I mean, you know, interestingly. Right. So from, from Corning, which was 160-year-old company, to Hospira which was spun off of Abbott Labs 10 year prior. Basically, I get this cryptic text from my boss one morning with a link to a Bloomberg article. I click on it and it says Pfizer to buy Hospira for $17 billion. I said okay, this could get interesting here. So long story short, you know, obviously I need to find another job. Literally around the corner in the same office park in Lake Forest, there was a smaller $1 billion pharma company called Acorn which was looking for a Treasury director. I make the move literally around the corner. I think I shortened my by about 100 yards. In the morning, going to work, go there. I started a Treasury Department, you know, Department of One. They never. I was a Treasury employee number one for acorn. After about two and a half years there kind of the same story. See an article that a Fresenius Kabi is going to buy Acorn. So started looking for Another job, luckily in Chicago, some folks I used to work with Hospira, were working for a company called Hill Rom, which is a $2.7 billion company in non invasive medical devices. They make hospital beds, other equipment. Joined there as an at had a few folks working for me in Batesville, Indiana which was their old headquarters. I worked in downtown Chicago. Good company. I was, was there about a year and a half and just got a, got a call from a retained search firm that they really liked my background. They were, you know, looking for a treasurer for a company in Chicago, you know, called Method Electronics. About a billion dollar publicly traded company. Yeah, I wasn't anticipating moving again. I really wasn't looking for a move after having to move a couple of necessity. But it was getting me into the treasurer role, which was something, you know, that I was aspiring to. And we're coming up almost two years now at Method, so it's been a.

Really good move for me and the company itself. Again, without going into too much detail about it, but what's it been like from. Because you've done the, you know, you've had medical devices, medical, pharma, medical, a lot in that area if you like, in that sphere. And then you've made this move to, to electronics and then, you know, and things. I know that there's a bit of a backstory to Method which a combination of looks on the website and you know, you and I talked about it on our first ever call. But you know about the podcast, but maybe just allude to that and you know, what's that like in treasury terms? Maybe looking at the differences. I talk to loads of guys and girls on this podcast and we talk about the differences, you know, between different industries and you know, but treasury is Treasury. Brilliant. But what have you found?

It's interesting, Mike. I think to a certain extent the way I view it, you're right, I did spend a lot of my career, well, or at least a decent part of it with Hospira, Acorn and Hill Rom, kind of on the pharma medical device industry. And there's some similarities there. And I do view it corporate treasury. And when I say corporate Treasury, I mean non financial corporate Treasury. I do view it as widgets, if you will. Right. So I do view treasury, the core treasury functions the same from company to company regardless of what you're making. You're going to have foreign exchange risk, you're going to have interest rate risk, you're going to need money, you're going to need to invest just all those Things are very similar. You know, there might be some nuances, there might be some, some differences, but, you know, you learn how to do, do those tasks well in one industry. You'll figure out very quickly any nuances in another. So it's been a pretty seamless move for me from industry to industry.

And as we start to then sort of move from, you know, this role and looking at treasury, you know, I met Jim very happily through tmac, that's the Treasury Management association of Chicago. They run Windy City. And I started speaking there and we then, you know, we met in a couple of bars and, you know, shared the odd beer or two and I can't wait to do again. But one of the things I discovered was this great community of treasury people and things like that. But we go to conference and I was talking to a treasurer the other day, and he and his team go to lots of conferences and they used to come back, lots of them, and they were going, oh, yeah, we're going to do this, going to do this. This was Phil Scott, actually, with Ferguson, who do plumbing and heating supplies. And he said, guys, that sounds really good. Then we come blockchain, we could do this. And he said, is it relevant? And actually they were like, oh, well. I said. And literally, I think, you know, sometimes you have these motivational quotes on people's walls and things. And in some ways we, when Phil and I spoke, and this is what I want to ask you. Sorry, but the fact is they start to say relevance, you know, the relevance to your treasury team and the relevance. And I know a lot of the sessions that, you know, come up, people are, shall I go to that session? Or is it quite relevant to my business? But as you look at the future for you and the business and for you as a treasurer, what are you seeing as being relevant coming out that people should be thinking about? Is it blockchain? You know, but those people. Oh, no, that was. That was last year's news. Or what are the key things you're finding that are relevant or that are really making a difference or things? What are you thinking?

That's a great question. I think it changes a lot in where your company's Treasury Department is in their evolution. And what I mean by that is, if I go back to when we first started the conversation about when I made the move out to corporate Treasury, I worked for a $1.1 billion company that probably had 10 people in treasury doing different things. I now work for a $1 billion company and I am the Treasury Department. While blockchain and the newest technologies and certain things may appropriate for certain companies. It's not for method at this point. Right. I'm getting the initial hedge programs in place. I'm getting first cross currency swaps and interest rate swaps in place. I'm reevaluating their debt structure, you know, real estate, you know, early age, early on things. But it's just where we are in our growth structure with our staffing level currently. You know, a year, two years from now, some of these hotter current topics might be more appropriate for us and we might, you know, have the bandwidth and resources to be going down that road. But now it's really just coming up the curve and making sure we're, we're doing the basics the best we can.

And when you're doing that, what, what's your, are you setting out an end goal or are you just, just literally starting at the beginning of it and going right, we just need to deal with this stuff first or right, I want to get over here or you know, I know there's, there's a mixture of both.

Yeah, there's, there's no shortage of, of what you can do or where you can go. Honestly, I think it's just picking either biggest pain points or kind of the, you know, the biggest potential wins. Right. The lowest hanging fruits and just coming up with a game plan and being realistic. There's only so much you can do. I need to do the day to day global treasury duties and try to improve things. Right. So just being realistic, picking a few goals to try to improve things over the next 12 months and then start again.

Going back to that future thing for treasury, you and I, it's been a pain. We haven't got to see each other for a while. But that is going to change going forward. But, but you know, you see developments, you're probably getting phone calls still that you sort of, you know, the bank's coming up with this latest scheme or these other consultancy. Oh, we're doing this, doing this. What are you, which one, which phone calls are you picking up? Which webinars are you looking at? You know, I know that webinar out, but what are the things that you're thinking? Do you know what that is? Something that could make a difference or again, before we move on to sort of your LinkedIn profile and your top tips, what, what are you thinking that again? Listeners today should be thinking about.

The ones that interest me the most are. There's a couple. One is definitely technology and more specifically technology that can be easily Implemented because when you're a team of one and don't necessarily have a ton of IT resources available to you, you know, definitely have some, but can't be getting caught up in any sort of complex long running system implementation. Right, Whatever, whatever technology that could help me from a Treasury perspective needs to be pretty straightforward and have a reasonable implementation time. So technologies like that, with a value prop like that interest me. The other thing under the same heading of doing more with less is any sort of outsourcing or third party provider doing certain treasury topics, processes that could be outsourced. Like there's some companies that could do hedge accounting as an example, items like that where you can get things off your plate or even just relying on your banks for different things. Any way somebody else can help me, I'm open to listening to.

So there you go. Well, we'll get your LinkedIn details put in the show notes but you'll be beating them off with stick. They'll be like quick, quick. Hang on, hang on. Yeah, so yeah, already am, but yeah, but it's all right, I got through that because I know Jim. So it's all right. You know, we got, you got him on the air today for you guys. But again, as you say, you sort of, you, you get through that bandwidth issue, don't you? Because there's only so much you can do and, and get through. But as we wrap up today's show, we'll put your LinkedIn details in the show notes. So if it's appropriate to have him in your network, he's a great guy and you definitely want to, but, but if you look back over this and you know, maybe for the three levels, you know, listeners today will be, you know, treasury analysts, assistants starting their careers, you know, so wanting to know, you know, looking back, what you would have done not differently but what you would recommend to them, the mid level guys, you know, wanting to say, well this is prioritization, which I think was great, we've got some good stuff. And also some other treasurers. If you reflect over those, what the, you know, three, four, five, I don't know, two tips. What are the main tips that you would give to people for them to take away that they should be thinking about as they listen to today's podcast?

Yeah, I think just, you know, I think learning is key theme and what I mean by that is, you know, taking opportunities that may not be your first choice. Like for example, when I was finishing up on Sorry up at Corning, I had Treasury Ops kind of put under my area along with Foreign Exchange and Treasury Ops was never a first choice of mine, but it's a core competent competency area in treasury and I have used that knowledge everywhere I've gone since. So expanding your horizons, taking on new roles is only going to help you down the road, is my view. And along that learning theme you've mentioned previously, TMAC and Windy City, just from both a networking perspective, getting that network to understand what other people are doing, how they're doing things, you know, obviously from just a professional network standpoint, if you ever need it, from a jobs perspective, getting that that network and just continuing to learning that way as well, you know, through tmac, through, through Windy City is definitely helped me along the way.

Awesome. Well, amazing Mr. Porter Latin and we were talking about the origins of his amazing surname. So I've said it and practice it a couple of times. Amazing advice there. Thank you very much. As I say, we will get get your details in the show notes so people can connect to you. I can't wait to see you soon and thank you very much for all your advice today, sir. Thanks very much.

Sounds great, thanks.

Hello, it's Mike here again. I hope you enjoyed this week's show. If you did, then maybe you want to follow the show or subscribe, depending on where you listen, whether that's itunes, Spotify or another great place to listen the show from. It's totally free and means that you'll be the first to see each and every week when we release a new show. And maybe whilst you're there you could even leave a quick review. Reviews and ratings are among the most important metrics for a podcast to effectively rank. And as you can probably appreciate, the podcast is a lot of hard work to produce every week and be amazing. Just take say 20 seconds, leave a quick review of my amazing guests and their great content, career stories. We'd really appreciate it. Thanks very much and I can't wait to see you soon.