How to Make Your Next Career Move in Treasury with Forrest Cebold

Welcome to this week's Treasury Career Corner podcast where I interview treasury professionals about their treasury careers. Each and every week I talk to treasurers about how they built their careers, where they are now, and where they see both themselves and the treasury profession going to next and this week's show, delighted to be joined by Forrest Sebold, the treasurer at Freeport LNG. Now Freeport LNG founded in 2002. Basically they're in the oil and gas industry and that's a big key feature of Forrest's background. And I'll get him to describe that both the company and as always, go through his background. We had a pre podcast call, as always, and one of the key things we brought out on that was discussing about some of the interviews that people go through in their careers and things like that, and about how essentially if you're the last man standing, or the last person standing rather, that you get the job and things like that. So I think that's something that's going to come out later on in our discussions. But first of all, Forrest, who, although he's actually from Texas or based in Texas, he's actually now in Colorado. So he's looking at this beautiful vista. I'm looking out at some foam in my podcast shed, which is lovely, very jealous. But he's got his coffee there, so hopefully he's ready to go. Forrest, take us back to the well where you started your career, how discovered finance and treasury, as always, it's over to you, sir.

Great. Absolutely. Thank you very much, Mike. I appreciate the introduction. Okay. I was able to start out in my very first job out of undergraduate school. It was a smallest startup company and I had the opportunity to kind of be exposed to all three, which I'll call financial areas. Let me elaborate that on a little bit. Yeah, the areas that I'm talking about are basically accounting, budgeting and forecasting and then Treasury. So I was exposed to all those three areas quite extensively over probably a three or four year period. You know, that's when I kind of realized of all those financial functions, I like treasury the best. And why I like treasury the best was because when I thought the actual subject matter was a little more exciting in terms of investments in debt management. And also I like the fact that treasury, as opposed to some of the other financial functions, is outward focusing. And what I mean by that is when you're in treasury, you focus on a lot of your interactions with people are outside of your company. There's also functions inside that you're focused on, but outside you do a lot of work with the banks and other financial institutions, which I really enjoyed. So that's where I kind of decided, well, I'm going to get into the treasury function within the finance function. Now I really value the experience I had in accounting and in financial planning or budgeting because it does definitely help you in the treasury field. But I kind of, I definitely identify myself as this is the area that I want to focus on. So I realized at that age, at that point in time, to get ahead, I really needed to kind of specialize in treasury. And what do treasury professionals look for in terms of hiring? And there were two things at that time in my career and one was an mba. And so I realized that's what I needed. So I went back part time and got my mba, which is, you know, it's a busy schedule when you're working full time and going to school part time. But that's what was needed. And secondly, I decided that you need to get the certification that's most applicable to treasury. And at that time it was called a Certified Cash Manager. Subsequent to that, they now change it to a CTP Certified Treasury Professional. So I was able to get both of those accomplished and then I was able to basically get a job, a Treasury job. I had to switch companies. And that, that kind of goes to one point I wanted to make is, you know, you have to kind of be committed, right? Committed to the treasury function. Yeah. If your career is important to you, you're going to have to make sacrifices. And one of my sacrifices was, well, I'm going to have to go to school and, you know, take some time away from the family by doing that and of course get the certification. So I think with any professional career you have to identify that what your area interest is and the sacrifices that you have to make to kind of distinguish yourself in that field. So that was what I was able to do. And again, I had to take a job at a company that was less than ideal. And when I say less than ideal, it had, it had financial difficulties, but at least enabled me the opportunity to get into the field of treasury, which I decided I wanted to do. And that's one of my overall points is if you want to advance in your career, you're going to have to be flexible. We all want to work for, you know, a company that's very successful and very fun to work for and everyone knows of the name and it's very proud organization. That's not most organizations. Some are going to be, you know, financially, not, you don't want to say precarious, but maybe they're not as profitable as you like to be. Maybe they're in an industry that's not attractive. Let's face it, the power people need treasury people too. So do the sand and gravel people. So you've got to be, if you're a Treasury professional, you've got to focus less on, you know, I want the I jail job with the high tech company that's very attractive. But I want to, I'm going to look for the best opportunity I can get. So I was able to get in on the ground floor within treasury and really learn about all the various functions within Treasury. And so I was able to, you know, get the staff position and then you know, quickly moved up to the, to the supervisor position there. And I think the way, you know, the way you have to do that is you have to kind of focus on let your boss know, know that your career path includes a supervisory or manager level position. So they know that right away that while you're currently hired as a staff person, your immediate goals are to get to a manager position. I was able to do that fortunately. And then that company, after a few years I did leave that company for another opportunity. My first job was actually in aviation and the second job was in healthcare. So that's an important part of treasury is. I don't think it's as industry specific focused as some of your other careers, you know, if you're an engineer or something like that. But you know, money is fungible so it's, it's less of a focus on the industry and more on the actions that you're doing. Yes. Because it's a very similar process whether you're negotiating a loan or conducting cash transactions. You could be in a various industries. You know, like I said, I started out in aviation, was healthcare and then the healthcare company was relocating to Philadelphia away from Dallas, Texas where my current job was. And I had heard about that. I wasn't sure and I was very fortunate. I saw an ad in the newspaper and that's the way most jobs were found back then. Newspaper. Now it's, now it's totally different. I'll get into that later. Yeah, how the recruiting of treasury has evolved over the years anyway, so that's. Yeah, you really, people don't really rarely get jobs now through the, through the newspaper.

Anyway.

I was able to get a job at Superclub Corporation and I was able to get a job. I moved up from manager treasury to assistant treasurer since Supercub Corporation was Actually a retail holding company. So again, a different industry. Right. We sold video, video stores and CDs. So the CDs, you know, back in the day people had CDs that you listened to that obviously gone by the wayside. Well, that was, it was in a retail establishment. So again, it's a totally different industry, right. From health care and aviation, but it's the same concepts where you're, you're managing money. This company was a little more internationally focused. We had stores throughout the UK and that's one thing that I think I wanted to target myself in terms of a career. I wanted international exposure. So that's a important aspect of the treasury professional. I think if you want to get into treasury because it's, it opens the door for more jobs, there's more jobs in the treasury function that have an international focus. So and when I say international focus, that means like bank accounts that may be outside your home country, foreign exchange activities. So if you want to focus on international treasury, it tends to look better on your resume and also expand your knowledge and expand your. How attractive you are to potential employers.

Yeah, so we're going to move through some of the other industries you've done as well. But because what I want to also, you know, perhaps focus on, you got the exposure in terms of international scope of a role which obviously varies according to different companies. But as you've moved through, you've also had different companies that have had different levels of capital intensity, if you like. So capital intensive business, manufacturing, pharmaceuticals and things like that. How important do you think that is versus industry as such? You can be in different industries, but they're both capital intensive or less capital intensive. Maybe a service industry. That's perhaps where it's more. Where it differs. Is that right, Would you say, to.

An extent, you know, it depends what function you're at within Treasury. You know, if you're, if you're in the capital raising function. Right. So in other words, if you're responsible for debt management, debt issuance or equity issuance, that becomes critical. Now if you're working for a private company that's privately funded, that's a totally different aspect in how you raise capital. Yeah, you're dealing with partners and things like that. So again, some treasury roles are capital raising intensive and some are not, you know, and if you get to a private company versus a public company, that's a big aspect. And then after I moved from, I was at Supercup Corporation and they were bought out and that's a career train that was forced upon me and that that may happen in your, in your career, you know, where you're you working for an organization and they're purchased by another organization. You've got to be proactive in that situation and identify decision makers at the company that's do the acquiring to let them know you're very interested in staying on with the company because I falsely assumed the CFO was going to be looking out for all of us and that wasn't the case. So my advice would be if you're an organization and it's being acquired by another company, which very well may happen, we know the amount of merger and acquisition activity that's going on in the world, be prepared, be proactive and reach out to the company that's doing the acquiring, the decision makers, you know, probably the senior financial people or senior treasury people, and let them know you're interested, you, you know, you're flexible and you're willing.

I'll make sure you're on their radar for. Yeah. As a potential person.

Yeah. As opposed to having you think that someone in your organization is going to look out for your interest because they're focused on their career and they're focused on, you know, maybe their next opportunity when really the decision makers are going to be at the company that's doing so.

Forrest, you were at Super Club and then you made that move to Ensco. Can you perhaps talk us through what may you made that move and how did you find the role? What actually happened with yourself?

Absolutely. SuperClub Corporation was in the video CD rental business and that was acquired by Blockbuster. So it was an acquisition. So unfortunately, at the end of the day, it was out of the role and out of the job and had to move to another company. I found the job at Ensco via the newspaper and obviously that has really changed over the years and how you find those opportunities. And it was a very different role in terms of the industry.

Right.

SuperClub Corporation was a retail holding company and Ensco is an international energy company. So it is also, it's public. Whereas Super Club Corp. Was a private company. The role was similar in the aspect that I was in a Treasury team, but I moved really hit because it was a situation where I had to move down a little bit. Sometimes you have to move down to move up. I was the assistant treasurer at Super Club Corp. And became the treasury manager at Ensco. So again, I think parts of my being flexible to keep my career going, so to speak, I had to take a step back, go down a level, if you will. To a different title to kind of stay employed. But that's okay because it allowed me an opportunity to move into, like I said, a larger public company where the structure is very different than a private company. You've got the ownership structure is obviously shareholders as opposed to individual or a series of individuals. And also usually the debt section management is different. You may have public debt. And when I mean public debt, I mean debt is owned by public in the form of bondholders versus usually just maybe like a bank facility at a private company.

You've got a number of roles within oil and gas and that was your first role within that industry as well. So a move across, across from a private group to a public group and then. But in terms of industry, what was that move like, making the move into oil and gas?

Well, retail, it was a little more progressive industry, obviously, so it was a more diverse work environment, whereas oil and gas is very traditional in nature. It is a different culture, it's a little more male dominated, so to speak. That again, goes to being my point about being flexible. You've got to kind of adapt to the culture of the company. You want it to be flexible, fair and honest. But on the other hand, you've got to realize that every company has its own culture and you've got to adapt a little bit to survive.

Often that's a big stuff. And we've got some guys listening today that might be, you know, in smaller groups, private groups, as you say, and things like that. You know, your treasury career has weathered those storms. Talk us through, you know, from Ensco, and then carry on the development, if you would.

Sure, yeah. You know, and like I said when I moved to ensco, I quite literally have to take a pay cut. So that kinds, in terms of flexibility, you know, you can't always just focus on the compensation. Right. I mean, that's obviously, that's what, that's a big point and that's why we're all working. But you can't make that the sole driving factor because that, that tends to be, that tends to limit you. Or again, it's more important to get your foot in the door and then make yourself valuable to that entity. Yeah, so I think that's one thing about being flexible and, and I'll talk about this a little later in one of my other treasury moves is you have to be flexible in terms of geography. But, and that may or may not always be the case for you individually, but I think it's important if, you know, you're really, truly committed to your career. To be flexible geographically. So anyway, I have to kind of take a step backwards, right. I went from being the assistant treasurer at Super Club Corp. To being the treasury manager at Ensco. So again, it was a bit of a step back, you know, but you have to do sometimes what you have to do. And you know, I was able to, fortunately, I worked there a long time, able to get promoted to the assistant treasurer and learned at that time, you know, a lot of the international focus that we talked about earlier because we had operations really probably about 30 countries and with bank accounts in all those countries and operations in all those countries and certainly a focus on pretty much a global footprint, about 40% of our business being international. When I say international, I mean outside of us.

So when you have that. Because again, you know, a lot of the listenership is coming from, from within the US and you've worked in both sides and things like that. How do you manage those international relationships as you, you know, growing through your career? Is it, you know, constantly reaching out to those guys and keep them on side or is it because, you know, this, we're talking pre zoom, you know, presume courses, just hitting the phones or, you know, how did you manage it exactly?

Yeah, it was hit, it was, you know, hitting the phones and you know, building a relationship is, is just that, you know, I think you got to, you have to make a constant effort and I think it has to be a meaningful effort. When I say meaningful, you know, you have to work on it to build that rapport. You know, they have to have to build your trust if they're asking information or asking assistance of you, because that's often the case. Right. You're at a Treasury, you're often at the corporate location, but you're dealing with banks and individuals that are away from the corporate office. So, you know, there you've got to realize that situation. You know, they're, they always, most of the field locations that you're dealing with look at, look at treasury and look at the corporate offices overhead in reality because the revenue is being made usually in the field or at this other location. And so you've got to kind of build their trust and build. The focus is on helping them do their job because that's really, at the end of the day, that's what they're trying to do. Yeah, yeah, you're looking at, like you said, looking at the value that you can add to them and to their job. And at the end of the day, that's how you build a relationship. Right. And that's how you build value because you're providing information or assistance to them. They know that you're then the person that they can go to if they need help or that they respect enough that, you know, if there's an issue, they'll be. You want to make sure that they can pick up the phone or send you an email. So I think building that relationship takes, like I said, it takes effort and it takes constant effort. You don't want to just talk to them or deal with them or send them an email when you need something. You know, let them know that you're reaching out to them and ask them if they need anything. So I think that's important. You know, you got to realize that, you know, time zone differences and, you know, there could be language issues, there's certainly currency issues that you need to consider. When you're working with international. Their, their currencies are going to fluctuate. They're focused more on their currency than they may be on the US Dollar. So you kind of really look at it. Look at. From their perspective.

No. And then walk us through them from, you know, Transocean, Lufkin and more recently Freeport, because again, I know we're on a time deadline today and I don't want to lose, you know, run out of time, you know, because then you were assistant Treasure and then made the move to Treasure. Just talk us through those, if you would.

Sure, absolutely. Yeah. You know, that goes into my overall career advice and how I was able to move from Ensco to Transocean. At Ensco, I work for a gentleman, Ramon Yi, who was the treasurer of the company. And I'm going to talk about one of the ways to move up and one of the maze is to, you know, kind of ride the coattails or someone or make an impression on an individual, such that if they move to somewhere that's maybe a little bigger or more. More lucrative that they'll hopefully, when time, when times come, they'll realize that you're the candidate that they want to really bring along. And that's how I was able. You know, my boss moved from Ensco, which was a company that was, you know, it was probably about. At that time, it's probably close to a billion dollar company in terms of revenue to a company of Transocean, which was quite a bit bigger. And he moved from. He was the treasurer and he was the treasurer then at Transocean. Well, lo and behold, he made me an offer to be the assistant treasurer at Transocean. So that's. That's how I was able to get that opportunity. But again, it talks about the commitment I made earlier in terms of being able to be flexible. And the reason I say that is because my original job at Esco was in Dallas, Texas, and the Transocean job was in Houston, Texas. Right. So I had to move, you know, and that's a pretty big, significant move. My family was. Was established and, you know, very much at home in Dallas, Texas. But, you know, they were all. We all decided to make the move. So that. That. My point earlier about being flexible geographically, you know, I had to make the commitment to move, and it turned out to be a pretty good move for me. At Transocean's, you know, a bigger company with more international exposure. We're actually based in the Cayman Islands, and that had its own interesting aspects and also based. And then we moved the company headquarters to Switzerland. So I was able to stay there as the assistant treasurer. And then as the case sometimes, Ray, my boss, moved on. He moved on to another company. So you have to kind of be prepared. You know, if you ride the coattails of someone, you got to kind of be prepared that they move on. You may have to move on.

Yeah. Time to go.

So. So. Yeah, exactly. So. And that one. That was exactly what happened at Transocean. And then I moved on to Lufkin Industries. And again, I talked about being geographically flexible. You know, Lufkin Industries was in a smaller town in East Texas. Gave me the opportunity to be treasurer. So with that, I was willing to, you know, mover to a smaller town to get that treasurer title. Because that's kind of. That was kind of the goal. Right. That I had all along. If you look at my career, I had to move. Yeah, yeah. I wanted to get to that level. In order to move. In order to get to that level, I have to be flexible to change companies and also to change in terms of geographic location.

And what would the contrast for you, you know, the. What was the. Okay, it's a step up, you know, assistant treasurer to treasurer. The buck stops with you maybe a little bit more or, you know, probably did already. But was there any other contrast or the things that you really noticed. Whoa, hang on. I'm now the treasurer. Was there anything that you picked out that, again, for the listeners today that they should be thinking about when they're making that move to the number one job?

Well, I think, you know, as with any move up the organization, you have to be prepared to realize what that entails. Now, obviously, people often focus on, oh, wow, it's going to be, you know, it's more money and it's more prestige. Well, yes, that's true, but it's also going to be more time. It's going to be, you know, probably more effort. It's probably going to be more stress. It's certainly gonna be more responsibility. So, you know, with which each move that tends to, they run in parallel.

Yeah.

So I think you just have to be prepared for that. You're gonna be prepared for that move in terms of, okay, you know, be careful what you really want. Right. And if you, if you really want that, that's fine, but just realize what goes along with it and be prepared, you know, that's, that's what's gonna happen. You'll have more people working for you, so you'll have more personnel issues to deal with when you move up the organization because your organization grows under you because you're dealing with more people.

Yeah. And when you did that, when you got the treasurer role and things, what was it like for you? You know, managing a team and leading a team? Obviously you've been the number two for a number of other years and roles. And then what was that like then suddenly being the lead, the full on leader?

Well, I thoroughly enjoyed it because a couple reasons. One, you know, like you said, the book does stop with you. So you know, you are the decision maker often and you have to live with those results. But I absolutely enjoyed that. You know, you have the direct ear of the cfo, whereas, you know, usually if you're the assistant treasurer, you've got to go through the treasurer to get to the CFO for most items. So that was one thing that really helped. You know, you've got the direct ear of the CFO because you usually report the cfo. So you know, you've got more influence at the company and when you're at that level, certainly. So you can make, you know, you can make a bigger dent, you can make a, you know, bigger impact, you know, but you've got to realize you can make a bigger impact positively and negatively.

Yeah.

So you just got to realize that when you move to that level of an organization. What happened, like I said, I was ready for that and I really wanted that and it was part of my overall career goal. We'll talk a little about this later. But you know, this is. There was a very different interview process than the other interviews I've been on. You know, the advantages I've had of changing jobs so much. I've interviewed a lot which could be viewed as a negative or a positive. But you got to realize every interviewer is a little different. And then I, that that company was bought out again. There's another buyout scenario, right? That company was bought out by GE Oil and Gas, which is a very different company. I went from a company with about $1.5 billion worth of sales to $150 billion worth of sales. So organization was 1% of their sales. And that, that really wasn't my ideal situation. A very, very large company where I felt like I couldn't really make much of an impact. So while they did, you know, they did keep me on and I was employed by them, it really was an ideal role. So I started, I kept on looking for jobs. And while I was working, it's the easiest to find a job when you're looking for a job. That's very true. And also you're just more appealing, you know, when you're looking at a resume and you see the, you see the gap, it's always just raises a bit of a question in the interviewer's mind. So it's always best to look for a job when you have a job. So that's what I was doing at that point in time. And it's funny because I was interviewing for two jobs at that time. And you can tell when you're on the short list because, you know, you've gone through several interviews, you're actually with the CFO and maybe even the CEO of the organization. And I was interviewing for two jobs, both in industry, both in Houston, both treasurer level position and the job I really wanted, I thought I really wanted, I did not get that job. But that, but Freeport LNG did, I did get that job. Fortunately and ironically it turned out that the job that I thought I wanted, that person, I didn't. I actually ended up meeting the person later on. And about a year ago I was, that person was laid off. So my point being there is you never know what job is ideal for you until it kind of gets there. And this turned out that we went on frequent LNG turned out to be just a fantastic job. Kind of my current career goals and career management, and I can elaborate on that a little bit more, is, you know, I'm at a stage in my career where I don't really need to be managed much, at least from my perspective. So I'm in a situation where my boss really lets kind of make me do what I need to do. And it really works out well in terms of my relationship with him. And throughout the organization.

But for us. Let's go. We'll come back to that about empowering your staff and things like that in a moment. If you could. Let's just talk just again, if you could explain to people what Freeport is about your current company. And then what I'd like to do is broaden it into some of your other views because I think people will get. We've only got 20 minutes running and I want to make sure that the people listening today get the most out of it. I think you've got some great views on recruitment and things like that. Just tell us about Freeport as a company and things.

Right, yeah. Freeport LNG is a. The LNG stands for Liquefied Natural Gas. So we're fortunate in that we're in a very narrow area of the oil and gas industry that's doing well because as we know right now the commodity prices aren't too high and most people are not doing that well in that sector. But also liquefy natural gas. So the United States has an abundance of natural gas. So we're fortunate that we just liquefy it and then that it gets shipped around the world. If you remember anything about Chemistry 101, the only way you can liquefy any gas is to super cool it. So it shrinks about 600 to 1 from a gas to a liquid, goes on a tanker and gets shipped throughout the world. So that's what we do from a productions perspective. Again, I'm the treasurer so I deal with, you know, capital raising and moving money and managing money and debt management, things like that. But that's what we're in. Yes, that's what our particular industry does.

So and I said, we said earlier about the global is a big, big part of your ethos or the sort of your responsibilities when that comes down onto a people level. And this is where we're going to start to broaden back into that and bosses and things like that. But again, you deal with. There were some treasurers in the U.S. for instance, who will deal with lots of people, but they literally will just talk to people in their own country in the US because you know, it's big enough, you know, fair enough. But you obviously have an international outlook. How have you seen that over the years? And obviously that's been a key part of your history and background. But you know, how do you manage all those different relationships and things? We talked about being on the phone and stuff. But you know, do you see there are different ways to approach problems or what do you think?

Yeah, I think, you know, you need to gain some in country knowledge maybe about, about, about their particular banking system in every, every country is different in terms of how they operate their banking systems. Surely the UK is different than Japan, that's different than Brazil. So I think one aspect is to gain some general knowledge about the way the banking system operates there, who the major players are. When I say major players, major banks are within that country. Certainly you want to get a feel for the currency itself that dominates that country. Is it a floating currency? Is it pegged to the US dollar? Is it an open currency like the Egyptian pounds are very, it's a very controlled environment. It's very hard to get Egyptian pounds. I mean it's very hard to convert the Egyptian pounds to US dollars. So I think you need to learn about some of the details of operating within that country from a Treasury perspective. And again that's like, that's banking, that's currency related. That's how funds are moved in and out, historical interest rates and things like that. So I think you've got to learn about the country itself to help you kind of operate within that country. Even if you, you never get to physically go there, you understand how to operate in there in terms like from banking perspective and from a local operations perspective because that's who you're supporting, right? You're supporting the local, your local operations often.

That's really interesting. But what I want to do again because listeners were here, we're on. We've got to make sure that we get enough time of yours, which is fantastic. We spoke before today. You've got a fascinating career where you've made all these moves. Some treasurers will be 20 years in one job so their knowled of making moves and recruitment and the market in that sense is more limited than yours. Now there are two or three points I wanted to make. We'll come back to the about, you know, being a boss and empowering your team and stuff in a minute. What I wanted to do was jump in on it's easier to find a job when you're in a job and about being the last person standing. Because we spoke about this before and I thought we had some really good views there. So if we just look, look back at your career when you were, you know, easier to find a role when you. Versus when you perhaps, you know, maybe when you weren't in a role, you know, how did you find that made your processes? Because I think certainly when I've spoken to people sometimes there's a slightly different thought process. You know, when you're a Treasury professional, you're between roles, you don't have a role at that time. Whereas when you're in a role, you know, certainly when I put candidates forward for roles and things like that, they're much more relaxed if they've already got a job. And it makes you make the right choices because you're not thinking crumbs, how am I going to pay the bills next week? It's much more, well, the bills are paid. You know, am I just choosing this role for the right reasons? Have you found that yourself with your career?

To an extent. To an extent, yeah. I think that's true. I think, you know, you're, you're obviously much more selective. You know, when you're, when you're, when you're looking for a job, you can pretty much jump on the first opportunity that comes along. You know, it may not be, like I said, the greatest company in the greatest industry or the greatest compensation level, but you're going to kind of make that move. And if you can, you know, start, start to look for your job, when you're in a current role, you're much more controlled in your decision making and, you know, you're, I think you. Plus you're much more in tune with red, the red flags too. Something comes up like, well, ever you interview, you always want to ask, well, how was this position created? You know, is this a growth, Is this a growth situation? Is this situation where this person was, you know, was terminated, you know, and. Right. The red flag goes off as well.

Yeah.

You know, we can't seem to fill this role with the right person. Right. You get, oh, well, this is not. But this role has been open every year for the last three years. Well, that's a red flag. So that's kind of situation. Well, but if you're, you know, if you're, if you're at the point where, you know, you really need a role, you're going to look through that. Whereas I think if you're just, you don't need the role, you're going to say, okay, and, you know, probably move on. I think, you know, in terms of, you know, when you, when you make that decision that you're going to look for another opportunity. I think really, you kind of have to do the homework up front. Right. In other words, you can't say, boy, I'm going to start looking for a job. You have to work on. You know, you have to make sure you build up your network before then. Right. Because sometimes that may be the opportunity that you need. So in other words. And that's. And that's a skill set to build up your network. And how do you do that? It kind of goes back to what I alluded to before. You know, you've got to stay in touch with people.

Yeah.

You've got to connect with them on a regular basis. And sometimes it's nothing. It could be nothing more than an email or to be nothing more than a phone call, but you've got to identify people that, you know, you kind of value in terms of your career. And it doesn't have to be necessary. People that are in the treasury profession, it could be bankers. Often bankers have great roles because they are in touch with treasurers and assistant treasurers throughout the industry. So I think you got to kind of keep. Keep your network in terms of, you know, people you. Not just necessarily that are in the treasury profession, but people that know of treasury openings and like I said, like bankers and.

Forrest, I think you're making a brilliant point there. And one thing that I've heard from a lot of people and want you to do the talking, but I was going to bring it up, is that number of treasurers or senior treasury professionals only start networking when they suddenly need a job. And it's a little bit, you know, not desperate, but it's a little bit. Sometimes, you know, some of the people that, oh, we didn't. Haven't spoken for five years, hey, I'm looking for a role. Do you know things? And they're like, well, yeah, but you, you didn't bother to be interested in me or things like that. But you are an active networker, which I know is fantastic skill. You know, it's not just your banking stuff and everything else you know, that's obviously really helped you. Would you say?

Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. Because one of my opportunities I found was just through that. It was, it was a banker. Yeah, A banker said, hey, these guys are looking for someone. It's like, whoa, that's great. I think that's important. You know, you get. You can't just start, well, I can't wake up today and say, I'm gonna start looking for a job. Yeah, you gotta be prepared. You know, you got. It's not just like having your resume ready and having your information out there on LinkedIn, which is, which is good and you need that. But you really have to develop the relationships beforehand so you can kind of use those people. And probably. That's not a great term, use those people. But Certainly have those people help you. And you know what, I've had a lot of people. Yeah. And I've got a lot of people come to me and say, you know, hey, I'm looking for something and you know what? And that's great because then I know, I ever know if I'm in that boat, I'm, they're very much likely to help me if needed.

Yeah.

Right. So it's a, it's a quid pro quo situation when you have these business.

Networks and it's cultivating it. Well, you're cultivating in a positive fashion. Not just in a, you know, I want to use you to, you know, hop step and you know, you help them, they help you. And you know, what goes around comes around paying it forward.

Right. And I think that's, it's important too because you know, I get being in, at a, as a Treasury level position. I get people all the time on LinkedIn that want to link in with me.

Yeah.

And they could be, they may be at a lower treasury fresh and like I'm not gonna just link in this person because I know they just want to try to use me to get a job. Right. So, you know, it's, it's, you know, when you build a network, it has to be reciprocal. You know, you have to help the people and they have to help you. So I think that's important in terms of when you, when you want to make that move. You got to build your network. It depends what level you add to. You know, sometimes when you're just starting out and we can go into this a little more, when you're just starting out, you've got to make sure you kind of check the boxes for those entry level positions. Yeah. And what do I mean by that? I mean by, you know, if it requires a degree in X, you've got to get that degree in X and you could you try to convince yourself that that's not important or that's not needed, but at the end of the day, that's not your decision. That's the, you know, that's the hiring person. So you've got to check the boxes like I kind of did early in my career, you know, well, an mba. Okay, I got that. Okay. The certification. Okay, I got that. So you've got to, when, when you're, when you're starting out in your career, you've got us, you've got to check.

Those boxes, you got to put the work in.

Yeah. And then, you know, and then when you get older, you know, in your career, it's certainly situation like they don't really look at, oh, where did you go to school? Okay, whatever. You know, they're really looking at maybe some more specific skill sets or specific things you did in your career they're looking for. And you can't be discouraged if you don't have that, like one job that I did not get, that I thought I really wanted was they wanted someone with IPO experience. Well, I didn't have it at that time, no. So, you know, I didn't get the job. But I'm not going to beat myself over the. Up over that because I just didn't have that one particular type of experience. But you've got to be prepared, you know, because that's what sometimes when you get to a certain level, that's what they're looking for because they're. Everyone they're going to interview is going to have all the boxes checked. They're going to have enough experience, but they may be looking for something that's very specific.

But we talked about that and there's a crossover with that functional thing and industry experience. As I said, at one stage I was nearly going to be recruiting this treasurer for a consulting stroke engineering firm in la. And the, the senior guy there said, have you recruited any other senior treasurers in LA in this industry? And I was like, well, no, because there's just you, you know, it's like you're the biggest company and, and as you say, there's this certain thing you do, you know, get people that got IPO experience, got different, but that's more functional experience rather than industry specific and level and everything else. It was just, you know, and again, you, it's about you developing the other facets of your experience as well, isn't it?

Yeah. And that goes back to, you know, when I said be flexible and be kind of be proactive, the more kind of experiences you can have within the treasury function. Again, it's like IPO experience or international experience or experience with letters of credit or anything like that. That looks good too, because you may eventually interview her for a position where they need that box checked. So that's why you, I think you got to be prepared to kind of expand your role, prepared to maybe make the move to broaden your experience base because you never know when the next recruiter is going to need that specific type of experience.

Apologies to budding, but we, you know, we're going to, you know, you, I know you've got a hard stop in about five, six minutes. So before, you know, we leave you today, we're going to go to your LinkedIn profile a minute. But before we do that, just, I just wanted to go back and you talked about, you know, you've worked under various bosses and perhaps reflecting on some of those and the best ones you've had and what you've taken from them to be a best boss yourself and how you've empowered people. I know we spoke about this before the show again, you know, what have you seen from people that you've, you know, borrowed from them, as it were, and what, you know, what should people be thinking about when they're listening today?

Sure, absolutely. You know, I think, I think one, you could learn from everybody. So you could also learn for your boss. You can learn from people that work for you, you know, and be aware of situation. Like if you're working for someone and they, and they kind of ask you or they, in your review process, they mentioned a particular character trait that maybe you don't agree with. Like, oh, I should be more patient. Let's say they say that and I don't agree with that. Well, but if someone else tells me that same thing, I've got to realize and be mature enough to, like, I'm wrong there. I need to be more patient. So I think, you know, listen, listen, listen to what people are telling you. It's about being, being a good communicator. So like we said, you've got, you said before, you have two ears and one mouth.

Yeah.

So make sure you use it proportionally. So that's, I would think, I say, you know, listen, listen a lot. Listen to people that are above you, listen to people that are below you, listen to people that are across from you. And it's really try to take what. And use that source, use them as a source, as a network, because if you can earn their respect again, you can kind of ride their coattails. And you know, people, if people change jobs for all sorts of reasons and you never know when that person may work for them now and you may work for them, you know, 10 years from now in a different role, a different company. So, you know, if you've got that again, it goes with keeping the, keeping your network into, you know, if you, if you really respect someone, if you work for them, keep in touch with them, regardless of where they go. That's it. I think that's real important. And I'm, and I still keep in touch with my, you know, my bosses that are retired.

Yeah.

So think that's just, that's just an important aspect to have. And if you will, we could talk a little about interviewing skills because I've interviewed a lot in certain aspects that I think I've learned, learned over the years. And we talk, we talk about that. You've got to understand who you're interviewing and kind of, you got to let them lead. And I've had certain interviewers where, you know, they could, they sit back and they'll ask, ask a question and they expect, you know, a long detailed answer and they'll ask another question and that's what they want to get. And then I've had interviews with it. They do 80 or 90% of the talking. And my point there is whenever you're interviewing something, you need to let them take the lead because some people like to talk. Right. And they may like to talk about themselves and they might like to talk about what not. And some people want you to talk and you to sell yourself, which is fine, but you just need to be prepared to do either or.

Yeah.

Because you never know what that, how the interviewer is going to be. And at the end of the day, they're the decision makers. So you've got to make sure that, you know, they, they want you and they want you nothing to bring you back. And I guess that goes to my point about, we talked about earlier about being the last person standing because you've got, you've got to understand what the interviewer is trying to do in terms of when you interview. They're really just a lot of. It's for trying to eliminate people because they're all, it's all about time management. They may have gotten, you know, 30 resumes and they narrow it down to 10 people that HR is going to talk to and they're going to talk to six. And they're kind of working like I just want to eliminate some of these people so I can just kind focusing on these two or three candidates. So it's something. Sometimes you just got to be the last person standing and not have anything that's going to preclude you from being the last person standing. And sometimes that's, that goes back to kind of, you do really want to let them lead the conversation if possible because you don't want to upset them or dominate the conversation or on the other hand, if they expect, you know, you to just have long detailed answers for every one of their questions, you just have to roll with it.

Yeah.

You know, if you don't get to something that you wanted to sell about yourself, that may be the case. But the end of the day, you got to realize that person's making the decision, not you. Yeah.

When you have to let them lead. And as you say, it's essentially what we call the horns and halo effect as well, because if they focus in on something they really like about you, you know, love the rugby. Oh, yeah. It's great that. You know, great. That's the halo effect. And you're an angel and they love you.

Great.

But then also, as you say, it might be that they hate sports and they, you know, so they. You start to go on about it and they're saying, well, actually, I'm not interested in sports at all, so. Oh, hang on. You know, so back away from that. So I think it's about awareness and that active listening. And it is, you know, a lot of the things that you brought to bear on today's podcast.

So know who you're speaking with. If you're speaking with, you know, in the interview process, you often speak to an HR representative. You often speak into, like, maybe the decision maker, your boss, and maybe the cfo kind of realize that they're all different people and they're all looking at different things. You know, the HR person is going to be like, well, I'm looking for red flags where I can just eliminate this person.

Yeah.

You know, and the CFO is looking for a person like, wait, I want a person that can be a star, and I can maybe move this person throughout my organization. Whereas, you know, the treasurer person may be looking for. I want someone to fill this role. So I'm looking for someone that could really fit in right now. So you kind of got to realize who you're interviewing with to kind of what they're looking for. Because they're not all looking for the same.

Exactly. So, Forrest, amazing chat today. Let's just wrap up things because, again, I know that you've got a hard stop any second. If we could, you know, we'll put your LinkedIn details in the show notes so people can connect to you, and I think it'd be amazing for you guys to have you in their network and things. But before we do and do close off, just reflecting back over your time in treasury thus far and continuing it is, what are the key tips, bullet points, if you like, for people that you would say to people that they walk away today and they know about?

Well, one, like I said earlier, be flexible. Absolutely, be flexible. And, you know, if you're. If your boss asks you to do something, you know, you do it. If you Know, if this is gonna require a move, you know, then maybe you have to move. So be, you know, the more flexible are, the more appealing you're gonna be to people. Secondly, you know, be sure to kind of, if you need to, you know, tick the boxes. Tick the box. Get what you need to get the interview. Don't, don't try to fool yourself. So maybe know, tick the boxes. Tick the box. And lastly, network, you know, actively network. You should be networking right now and network people and you never know who, who's going to make, who's going to be that person that's going to get you that interview. Yeah, I mean that's what I would focus on. Networking is not easy, but it's something that you need to keep continuing to focus in higher up you get. That's the more likely the way you're going to get jobs. Jobs through a network.

Exactly right. Yeah. So flexibility. Tick those boxes. Actively network. Not just occasionally actively network. Amazing.

And also you don't realize that you know who you're speaking with. And like you said, look, look, look for cues when you're interviewing, you know, because they're, they're, gonna, they're gonna lead, they're gonna lead you where you, where you need to go.

Yeah.

And know who you're talking with, you know. You know, like I said, you don't interview differently between, based on who you're talking with, whether it's a CFO or you know, like I said, attorney person or the HR person.

Forest, thank you for your time today, sir. We, well, we didn't rush. It was great. It was a lovely 40 minute conversation. So this is going to be, you know, freely available when they go. Well, I'm looking forward to publishing it because this is going to be a great one. Thank you, sir. And again, we'll put Forest details in the show notes to connect with him. He's a great guy to have in your network and thoroughly enjoyed it. And we'll definitely do more shows in the future with you and maybe some more variety shows and stuff. But thank you very much for your time today.

You make sure they enjoyed it.