How to Move Ahead in Your Career in Treasury with Kim Masucci

Foreign.

Welcome back to another episode from our archives of nearly 200 episodes. This was one of our most popular past podcasts with the amazing Kim Masucci. Kim will talk a little bit more, bring us up to date with her career since we spoke way back in October 2020. Don't forget, leave us a quick rating on itunes. Wherever you listen to your podcast, Spotify, whatever it might be, listen out for me at the end and let's get on with the show.

So taking us back, if you would, to the dim distance days, maybe coming from university, getting a degree up to now. So your show over to you.

Great. Thank you so much, Mike. I'm excited to meet with you today. So I actually started out in some typical finance jobs after college, and I ended up working in engineering finance at Pratt and Whitney, which was a business unit of United Technologies. I knew I wanted to do something different, so I was searching our job postings that we had for the company and I saw something in treasury and it piqued my interest because it was something I'd never thought about before. And I decided to apply. Having no experience, not thinking I would get an interview or get the job, I was able to get the interviews and wound up interviewing with the treasurer of Unit Technologies, which for me at the time was a huge deal because at the business unit we never interacted with people of that level. So I got to interview with all the people in the department and I ended up accepting the position as the bank account registry manager, which was super different than anything I had ever done before.

So when you were going into that role, what was it that they were looking for? You know, and again, if people are now looking, was it a curiosity of your mind or was it you as a person? What were the things that were sort of stand out in treasury at that time?

You know, I think it's hard to find people who have specific treasury experience, so they were probably looking at someone with a good track record of progression, which I had moved up from an analyst to a team leader at that point. So I had some supervisory experience. I had shown forward movement in my career, and I also had some experience in process improvements, which I think, you know, that is always an important skill to have, so I think that was attractive. So really just the willingness to learn and do different things and then you've.

Got the progression or then talk us through. Then you stayed. You've been with the group or with UTC for how long?

So I was with the group at UTC from 2007 until trying to think when I so around like 2018, I went to FP&A for a stint, but that's the only time period I left. So it was about 12 years in Treasury.

Talk us through the progression, talk us through because again, there'll be people listening today saying, oh, what do I need to do to get that next step up? And then what do I need to do to get. Were there differences between them steps up or was there a common theme or what were you thinking about with your career? At that stage?

I absolutely was thinking of moving ahead because I am driven and competitive. But at the same time I think it was more how do I challenge myself, how do I learn all the different areas of Treasury? It was a large treasury group, so, you know, you had the opportunity to specialize in a lot of different areas. So started as bank account registry manager, as you mentioned, and very quickly an opportunity opened up in cash management and that was one of my favorite roles. I got to spend a few years managing the domestic cash pool, so issuing commercial paper, being responsible for the daily cash position, making investments, and that was a great experience for me. After that I managed the netting program, which was a big job. We had close to a thousand entities in our program. You know, that was a huge step for me. And then I went on and did some more technical roles with swiftnet, some implementations to learn that area of the business. I was the dividend program manager for the internal dividend program, which also again had a large number of entities participating, an average of 10 billion in approved dividends per year. So just really always looking to take the next step and learn a different specialized area. After that, I was asked to interview for a role in capital markets and that was probably one of the most interesting, just neatest, jobs I will ever have, I think, because a lot of things happened during that time period that I worked in capital markets.

I want to take you back a moment just, just before we move through that, because you move rapidly through that. Just so you did this great progression within each of those roles. So you're doing the bank account registry role, you're doing the domestic cash management roles, you've got your day to day. Were you then looking to expand your role whilst you were doing it as well and get to know the assistant treasurer or say, look, what can I help you with this? Or how was your sort of ethos that? Did you have in the back of your mind that if I keep. Or did you just think, actually if I keep doing this role really well, just focus on getting this done, I'll get promotion but what was the sort of. Were you studying? What was the sort of. Again, I'm trying to seek out some of the keys to success that the listeners today going, oh, I should be like that, or oh, yeah, I'm not doing that. I should do more of that. Is it the networking or is it what the factors would you say?

Not so much networking. I think, you know, the area that, you know, the department I worked in had quite a number of people and I think there was natural movements in roles. So it was more a matter of when any position opened up, I would raise my hand. I think that I never wanted to stay anywhere for too long a period of time. I feel that it's important to move around and learn different skill sets, especially when you're in a large company, because I hear some people criticize, you know, people who may come from large corporates and say, well, how you don't really know all the areas of treasury, right? Because you didn't do xyz. And I wanted to be able to say, look, I did. I did all of these different areas and I specialized in them and did them very well. Right. So, you know, I think in smaller companies you have more of a jack of all trades mentality. In a large corporate, it's important to move around and experience each different function. Otherwise you kind of get stuck in one specialty.

Make sure you get that breadth and just be the specialist, be as general. So you can help in other areas as well in some ways.

Right.

And then. Sorry, so I'd interrupted you. We got up to then you were senior manager within Treasury. You were then given the role assistant director, capital markets, all markets focused. Really exciting. Or deal, deal, deal or what was the situation?

So it was really exciting. UTC was doing a lot during that time period. I was able to go visit the writing agencies in New York City with the CFO of the company, the treasurer and assistant treasurer. So I prepared, you know, all the books that we brought with us. And then I just got to sit and listen and take in the conversations that happened there. And it was very interesting to see the questions that they ask and how the CFO talked through everything. And just very interesting time for utc. So I'm not sure how familiar you are, but their acquisition history, but at that time that we were visiting the rating agencies, we were looking to acquire Rockwell Collins, which is a $30 billion company. So I were going there to have the conversation about what does this do to our rating? And, you know, it was just very interesting to be there for that. That was probably one of the most interesting parts of that role.

And when you say it was interesting, interesting in what way was it because. Because it was then hearing about the. How the whole company was then rated by them or was it more the internal story that those guys were selling about why you want to do the acquisition? I actually know some of the background to this separately. I've known UTC for a number of years rather. But just from you, what was interesting to you? Was it to see both sides or is it more one sided or what was it?

Well, I guess I didn't have any exposure to the rating agencies before that, so I had no idea what went on there. And it was interesting to see how knowledgeable all of their analysts are about the different industries and the types of questions that they ask. And you know, I mean, I think going there for the CFO as a company who is looking to take on a large amount of debt and just hearing his story about why they should rate us a certain way, that that was interesting to me. Just hearing those conversations that I don't think you would normally be exposed to, it was just a very interesting time for the company.

And so you got that role under your belt. You've done really well. Associated directed capital markets. Talk us through the sort of progression from there to now because again, people you know won't. And then we get into Otis and you can explain that as well. But carry on with your story if you would.

Sure. So I took a job in FP and A just to try something different. And I think that's also a key to, you know, success that you've asked about is that you can't be afraid to leave and come back. Because look, I did come back, but I think I came back with a much different perspective of Treasury. So, you know, it was very humbling to go work in FP&A, because it was something I wish I'd done earlier in my career. I feel like, you know, later in my career I was already seen as somewhat of an expert in treasury. And then to go really feel like you don't know anything is difficult, but it taught me a lot. So I worked on board presentations for the CFO for comp committee and Finance committee. To see what, you know, he's presenting to the board, his talking points, his notes, his slides. I also focused on economics and I did quarterly economic reports for the cfo, the board of directors and the CEO. So it was a lot of visibility there and a lot of attention to detail, making sure everything is strict deadlines, making sure Everything is done on time and accurate all the time. And that also, I think, elevated my skill level a bit because, you know, when you're getting that level of visibility on your work, you're really doing good work. Right. So I think when I came back to Treasury, I think I bring with me maybe a little bit more of that skill set.

Well, that's good. So you took that sort of not step back, but sort of a step into a different area to really give you perhaps a different view. Did he give you a different view on the group and the different view on Treasury? Sort of. And how it all fitted together? Did you find.

Absolutely. The dynamics in FP and A is different than Treasury? I think they absolutely have a different view of the, you know, the entire company in FP and A. And it was interesting to see that. And so I think now I step back into treasury and I can understand a little bit about their processes because we do work with them cross functionally providing latest estimates and things like that. So I have much more of an appreciation for their processes and an understanding of how we work with them.

Yeah, so you'd work for a number of years and got this different view on the group through fba. So it's great. Gave you a different viewpoint. But then you came back to treasury, is that right? Or, you know, describe maybe the next part in your journey, because I think this is a great move all the way through early days through to the sort of the role you're in now. But give us the view and maybe an outline of what was happening next.

I think that I always knew I wanted to go back to treasury and I did enjoy SP&A, and I think it was a very important role for me to do. But when United Technologies announced that they were going to spin Otis and Carrier from the parent company and at the same time merge with Raytheon, I felt that there were huge opportunities in treasury if I could go with one of the spin companies. Nobody knew what was going to happen with the remaining company at the time. And the headquarters are going to be in Boston. So that was one piece of information that I think forced a little bit of some people's decisions on where they wanted to go. A lot of it was regional. Right. So Otis has an office that's actually right next to where UTC campus was. So we all knew that, you know, Otis was going to stay there for some period of time. But additionally, other than Regent, there was a role I hadn't done. I know we've been all through my resume up to this last job and I had never spent any time on foreign exchange. And the person who had the most experience in foreign exchange number of years worth was going to be the assistant treasurer at Otis. So I knew that that was a person I could learn foreign exchange from and that was where the knowledge was going to be. So I made that decision to round out my skillset in Treasury. I think it made the most sense for me to go with Otis.

And hugely important, given the nature of the business and how international. I mean, what sort of percentage of revenues come from overseas or what's the.

Sort of the pressure, if you like?

Sure. So Otis has a lot of overseas revenue, whereas today Raytheon and Technologies, the remaining company is mainly domestic. They really don't have the same. So, you know, doing FX there would have been very different than doing FX at Otis. So, you know, and Otis tends to have longer term contracts because we have these big projects, we have a lot of overseas factories. So there's a lot of exposure there. And so I think, you know, from an FX perspective, it's more interesting company to be with. And if you look at the carrier business, which is in Florida, you know, a lot of their exposures are very short term. They have a more short term business. So Otis really has, I think, the more interesting FX piece.

And then as you came into it, as it's developed, you know, so well, the group itself, as you say, it's primarily elevators, lifts and things like that. So you've got that big business, a very solid cash flow, solid business and everything else. How is that then? We've been through the pandemic and everything else and lots of lockdowns. Has that affected you hugely or are you quite resilient to that? Because travel businesses, they're going bust as we see them every day because people aren't allowed to travel. But how did that then affect you guys? What were the key effects there?

I think there has been a lot of impact, obviously. And the people who are working day to day with, you know, like the elevator mechanics and those people are still working. I think it's been tough on the company, but from what I hear, everything was good for Q2. And I mean, as a Treasury team, I think we see the impact. I think it's made things hectic for us just because we're all remote now and we went through the spin during a pandemic which was crazy. Everybody working from home, I guess, to the extent that we are a new team and we're trying to learn and grow during this time when we can't really be together. That has been a challenge. And I think being a new public company has been a challenge for us too. I think we were all preparing for this for so long that we thought on April 3rd we could breathe. And then I think what happened is that that was really just the start of the journey. Right. So, I mean, we're working on things that as a business unit, Otis didn't really have to be concerned about before because UTC had always handled. Right. So, I mean, there's a lot of things that are new for us and new people in Controllers group, new people in Treasury. It's been a challenge.

What advice would you give to. You've come through it and we're starting to see some light at the end of the tunnel. And although the tunnel keeps moving left.

And right a little bit at the.

Moment, we see that, but you're starting to see that. But as you were going through it, what are the lessons learned? What would you. Again, we've got other people that perhaps are further back down the tunnel. They're still coming down. They go, oh, okay, well, how do we do this? What bits of advice, useful things did you guys do? That, you know, really stood out. Some people have said to me, oh, we did a zoom happy hour. We done this, we've done this. What were the, you know, that aside with it? Was it that sort of stuff, more communication or what were the tips and tricks you could give to people?

Yeah, I mean, we have a standing meeting every day. We do all. And it's a webex, you know, so we do all communicate on important matters that are happening during the day. And that's something we didn't do in the office. Right. So it's just a time for us all to get together. And if anybody has questions and they feel they, I can't get a hold of someone, they can ask in that meeting. So I think we straighten a lot of issues out during that call. So that's probably one of our best practices. We use Skype all the time. So the people directly that I'm working with every day, we're constantly instant messaging each other. So we're communicating that way, you know, a little bit different than we would in the office, but it still works and there's a lot of calls. I would say for me personally, it was difficult because now there's no longer reason to leave the office. So people end up working a lot of hours. And I think that you have to be careful with that. I have tried to probably within the last Couple of weeks, just take a step back and bring back some more balance. Because otherwise, I think just working from home, it can get to be a little too much sometimes. So there's always more work to be done, but you really have to have some balance.

So balances everything and sort of, yeah, getting it there. We spoke and just on this, we spoke before the show and I said, we talked about recruitment, we talked about people issues and things and we don't ever make this a. This is hosted by the treasury recruitment company. But it's funny how often people certainly said, I got asked by the conference in the Nordics last year. I was on the stage, I gave my speech and the actual. The moderator came back, said, so are you recruiter or your coach or consultant? I mean, yeah, I'm all three, really. I suppose I do all of those things. You know, it's. It's part of that. I don't, you know, if you try and overtly sell or, you know, recruitment, recruitment, then people are going to go, what? But Kim and I were just talking about people and talking about people issues and things. And when people are like, I know that you've been involved in recruitment over the years and things, what are you seeing in people's resumes that you want to stand out? What are you looking for in those people? Because you've been there. Again, as we said before, fab, you've come from outside of treasury, you started right on the bottom rung and your treasury director, which is so brilliant, and I think, you know, there'll be people listening today, go, wow, I could do that. And that's where I really want to go. And when we do our three tips at the end, that's what, you know, those people, you know, you guys should be listening to. So when you're looking at recruiting, when you're looking at people bringing them aboard, what is it? What's your process? What are you thinking about? And you're looking at resumes, what are you trying to glean from those, if you like?

I guess the person that I'm looking for today might be a little bit different than the person I was looking for when we were in the office. I mean, the reason I say that is because I think you need somebody who's independent. Obviously, I can't be sitting with that person all the time and detail oriented because we prepare a lot of documents. Everything needs to be right, the rates, the amounts, before it goes to a board meeting. So those two things are very important to me. I guess looking at that person's resume may and seeing do they have roles in their experience where they're exhibiting these types of things? Have they led teams? I do look at treasury experience, even though I didn't have it, because sometimes it does help to whittle down the number of candidates you have. I think it's more about the fit and the personality. But it is something to look at. I mean, just from the interview, like, do I get a sense the person has a good work ethic? Kind of hard to assess it, but you know, I do try to ask them some questions where I can figure that out. And do they have an ability to present to senior management because we have a lean organization, Are they comfortable leading a webex and showing the assistant treasurer the status of their project? So occasionally I will check feedback from other people they may have worked with to see if they think that that's a person who'd be able to fulfill a role like that.

If someone's like preparing, you know, they're a junior person, maybe first job or second job or something like that. When you're that resume, I know what I'm looking for. I'm looking maybe at university. Were they involved in team sports? Were they involved in different areas? What propensity do they have to communicate, interact with different people and things like that? Just taking it backstage. When I were first went into financial recruitment, I've been in recruitment and my boss said to me, what degree did you get? And I got a third class degree. And people like, oh my goodness, that's, you know, you know, that's not one.

Of the top classes.

Well, what else did you do? And he sort of, you know, I think he expected me to say I was in the pub. I did that many years later, spent a lot of time. But the key thing was I said, you know, I was in the rugby club, I was vice captain, hockey. I did this, I did this, I did this. I worked, I was swim teacher. And he said, and you did your degree? I said, yeah, my degree was four days a week. He's like, wow, okay, that, that shows a work ethic. And I just didn't think of his work ethic. I just thought that was what was normal. And he brought out, you know, he was a very good interviewer, you know, with you, were you looking for similar things, particularly the junior guys again? So this means that they should, I think sometimes say, oh, you know, people say, oh, don't put your interests on your cv, don't put your sports. I think that's, that's critical. Particularly the More junior you are because otherwise you're going to say, well, my work history is this and all these other things I've done. Do you find that yourself?

I agree. I mean it definitely gives you a better sense of the person, I guess when I've helped interview say for our leadership program, obviously we do look at those types of things because you don't have a lot else to go on. So then it's more volunteer opportunities and sports and student organizations you're involved in. Most of the resumes I'm looking at now is a little bit more experienced. But also has someone participated in a leadership program? Because those are typically great experiences. I mean a person who has five years of experience can be a real go getter and somebody who has 20 maybe has lost that spark sometimes. Right. So it's just, it's not necessarily years of experience all the time. Right. It's personality and inquisitiveness and if you feel like that person has a sense of still wanting to learn, that's what's important.

Right. And so for you, you know, looking back over this, we'd sort of done this review of you and you know, I said I was incredibly impressed. I was working your way up the progression and things like that. And you've been looking at the future but bringing that back to you as a person again, we will put your LinkedIn details in the show notes so people can connect to you if they're right to have in your network and everything else as you reflect on. And you and I did, and we had a pre call with this as well as you reflected back on it, what are the tips that you would give to people listening today if they say, oh that's what I'd like to do, or they're perhaps more senior and they say, do you know what? Kim's got that great background. What else should I be thinking about in my career? Is it doing more conferences? Is it doing this, is it doing that? What are the key tips that you would give to people as we wrap up today's show? That perhaps you would say this is what I did and maybe what you guys should do.

Sure, I would say so I thought about this for a little while and I think three things that I did that really helped my career and some of them may not seem like a big deal, but I think they are. I'm particularly introverted person so I don't like to public speak at all. But I would urge people to find an opportunity to speak at work. Whether it's, you know, a Department meeting or a company wide meeting. I know I spoke at some relatively large meetings on different topics and it was very nerve wracking experience. But I got a lot of people contacting me after that. And I think people view you in a different place, light when you get up and you speak. So that was something that I think is very important to make yourself visible in that way. A second thing would be if you are comfortable in your job, I think you need to move. You absolutely have to always be learning new things and it's easy to get comfortable and to not want to move. I really didn't want to leave treasury at all. I could have stayed in that capital markets job forever. I loved it. But I think moving to FT and A, it was painful, but it was very valuable experience. And then again, I mean, you mentioned I've moved a lot of different jobs within treasury. So I think moving, you know, at least every couple years is very important. And then I would also say a third thing is to people are very focused on mentors and I think that's great early in your career. But I have found I have a lot of people I ask for informal advice and that serves as mentorship for me. So I don't have any formal mentoring relationships. I think more important than that is finding people who will champion you, working hard and proving yourself to those people who, you know, you know, are sitting at the table and can speak on your behalf. So, you know, having people who champion you is what's going to eventually be the key to your getting certain roles. So I think that third important aspect for me.

I'll do a little summary here. So I've been screwing my notes and I think actually quite interesting, the first two points there are both about your comfort zone. I think it's really good that you said. Yeah, yeah, you talked about, you know, speak out of yourself to get out of the comfort zone, as you say. I, I've said in previously that I, you know, I never really wanted to go and do all this conference circuit, but you do it because it get, makes you better and you get better at things and as you say, you were in your comfort zone, you decided to move on roles. So whenever you're sitting back in that armchair and things, you sort of get out of it, you know, sort of push yourself out of it and then the person who will help you push out there and pull you out there is going to be a champion. Someone's a champions for you. So brilliant, brilliant summary. Amazing. Treasury professional guys, you should be definitely connecting you'll get a wealth of connections and you can pick and choose you want to connect to from here. Kim, it's like you've been missing. That's great. Thanks for your time today. As we say, we will put Kim's details in the show notes. You can connect her there. Should be great having your LinkedIn network a thoroughly enjoyable podcast. Thank you very much.

Great. Thank you so much, Mike. It was great to speak with you and you.

Thanks.

I hope you guys all enjoyed that podcast. Wow. All the way back October 2020. A couple of things have happened since then. Actually what I wanted to do was a couple of the other guests you've heard me talking to in recent weeks. I've given you a bit of a feedback, but I'm very lucky to be joined by Kim Masucci live on the line and what I wanted to do is get up to speed. Since Kim and I last spoke way back in the fall of 2020, quite a lot's happened since then. Kim, where are you now? Bring us up to date if you would.

Hi Mike, it's great to speak with you again. It feels like it's been much longer than a year and a half.

Oh yeah, I've got even grayer. But we'll move on.

Let's keep moving on.

There you go.

So I think last time we spoke I was with the Otis team and we were six months post spin from Unity Technologies. I'm really proud of the work I did there and my time at Otis was very intense, a great learning experience. We stood up Otis as a public company in April of 2020 and at that time I was originally leading the foreign exchange and intercompany lending team there, but I ended up contributing in some other areas as well. I set up the first share repurchase program for Otis and executed on that. I also completed the first issuance of Euro cp, which was a bit of a nail biter being new in that market and all. During the time that this was going on, we were undergoing a transition of workstations from SAP to Kyriba. We had this super customized SAP treasury module that was refined over years of work at utc and Otis was a jd so keeping SAP treasury didn't really make sense financially for the company and we had started work on this transition even prior to the spin, going live with the last modules in July of 2021. Overall, this was a one year plus project.

So happened next. What was the development from there?

I was approached by a recruiter about an assistant treasury role at Lindy around the time that we were finishing the Kyriba project. Lindy's a $30 billion company in the chemical industry for people who are not familiar with it. And at that time I'd held positions in most areas of treasury already. And I didn't really see a future growth role for myself at Otis. So I took a chance and I took this new role at Lindy. This was something that I had to talk myself into a little bit. It was five days a week in the office with kind of a tough commute. And that was something that during this time period was a little bit atypical. I'd been working remotely for almost two years, so I convinced myself I could make this change work. And about two months in, I realized in order to properly do the role that I really needed to be nearby the workplace. I start looking at hotels and I really, at that point started to take a few steps back and ask why was I doing this? Did I really want to spend weeks away from my family? I have two school age kids. I'd been working really intensely during and after the spin at Otis for a couple of years and I just realized that I didn't want to miss out on more than I ever have had done. So this was the probably hardest decision I've ever made professionally. The benefit of going and seeing Lindy's processes was that I really got to do a couple months of studying their derivatives, their cash management, and seeing how a different company operated because I'd been with the Otis and UTC group of companies for most of my career. So it was eye opening to get to see something different.

Yeah, a fresh outlook and sort of input to yourself as well. From there, what did you do next? This was quite a shift to yourself. And you're thinking, right, do we go from here? What's it been like and what happened next?

From there, I learned it's okay to try something and have it not work out. It's a hard lesson, but it makes your story a bit more interesting. And I know we covered like getting out of your comfort zone on the podcast and this was absolutely uncomfortable, but I came to terms with the fact I needed to sacrifice a little bit of what maybe felt like success to put myself first. And I'm enjoying going through the process of looking at what's out there. And my priorities shifted over the course of my career. And these aren't static things for people. Your priorities are going to change as much as your job will change. I'm looking at next a few different things. Consulting appeals to me from the perspective of getting to see and work at different companies. I think there's a lot of learning and challenge involved with that. I also really enjoyed working for large corporate treasury departments. You have a think tank mentality when you're surrounded with a lot of brilliant people and good resources. And we had that at Otis in utc. It was great. And then from an entrepreneurial perspective, I think building and growing a department at a smaller company could also be a very interesting role. My main considerations in my next role is really forward thinking culture and strong team environment because those are things that have been very important to me the last few years.

And that's the thing that you and I have talked about, Kim and I have been talking that you're now in closer and into this world, this job search. And there are a number of things we talked about. People just spray and pray through LinkedIn and all these different things, you and I. And again coining this phrase, I've got to write an article about this next normal. What you know, the new normal was hybrid working but now we're actually coming to the next. How do we come back into the office? What's the working promote? There hasn't been a great resignation in treasury, there have been movement but it's. You've been in this job search mode. What are the things that you've noticed from the market? And we can just go, I know about this because this is where I spend my life.

Yeah, clearly the roles that are posted out there is remote, have huge, overwhelming numbers of applicants. I recently applied for something that had over 300 applicants and to me that's just mind boggling. How do you not fall to the bottom of the pile? Or how do you differentiate yourself in an environment where there may not be a person looking at your resume?

There's just too many.

And I think something that has helped is that I have taken the extra step to reach out to job posters before and that seems to actually work. I was skeptical of it before. It's hard, uncomfortable maybe reaching out to.

Somebody that you don't know, but you.

Get used to doing that.

And how have you. Sorry, how have you done that, Kim, that you. Because some people I've been.

I get asked this regularly.

Should I reach out to those people and oh, it's not through you, Mike. And I'll give advice all the time but I think there's a way to do it that you know, again I just scribbled here that sometimes going to them with a paracetamol pitch about how you, you know, get rid of their headache. And I did this with a guy during lockdown and we got him to second. Got him to. He was the second choice candidate. Didn't get the role, but he got all the way through because we identified what the problems were for that client trying to recruit. And he was like, he'd applied to 112 jobs. Ridiculous. And when I gave him the advice, I said, look what that company is for. You go and apply there. When it was a firing, just Jim Collins. And the great thing, five, five bullets, not cannonballs. Try and targeted approach. You know, when we talked about this, you talked about a targeted approach. Reaching out in the right way. What is reaching out in the right way? That you've done it, Kim.

So mostly the way I've done it is via either email or LinkedIn. Just sending a quick note saying, I saw this posting. I'm really interested. And a lot of the time I think they get so many that the recruiters may not even really not yourself, but a lot of people are not versed in Treasury. It's a niche. So you get an HR recruiter at a company that is not familiar with the area, and all they're basically seeing is that you took the initiative and they like that. So that helps them recommend you to the hiring manager. And again, they may not understand the full skillset required, but just taking the extra step gets you in the door.

Yeah, exactly right.

It's funny how much I got an HR person that had been trying to recruit and said, oh, by the way, we don't want any corporate bankers. And I was like, no, I know that because it's corporate Treasury. It's spelled differently. And they were like, oh, yeah. No, I was like, yeah. I said, there's nothing against corporate bankers, if you're listening today, but it's a different skill. It's a different job. You know that. Oh, yeah, no, we used another recruitment firm and, and they kept putting these people that have spoken to treasurers. I said, yeah, they talk to them all the time. They're not right for your job. It was like ahead of cash management. I was like, no, this isn't what I'm talking about. And they were like, oh, okay, so it's been interesting. But you're, you're getting through that. And as you say, it's been a tough journey. What are the common themes you've perhaps seen in some of those postings or things? What, what's been there that you've noticed? You've touched on it there.

But I do see an overwhelming demand for people knowledgeable in the workstations and technology, because I think a lot of companies either want to upgrade their system or implement a new system. Another thing I see is that no matter the size or maturity of the company, better cash forecasting is always a challenge. I've had a few interviews and I feel like that's a topic that always comes up. It's something that everybody struggles with. So if you have experience in that, I think that people are generally very interested. And then something else they're always looking for is process improvements. It's always a priority. I think for every company there's always something you can do and they're really looking for people who are willing to get down in the weeds, roll their sleeves up and make things better.

We'll put Kim's details in the show notes so you can connect her on LinkedIn. As Kim and I have discussed, we've had number of some of our past guests have actually used the podcast, if you like, as a living resume because it's a great summary we are now. But actually differently to some of the other podcasts you get a lot more, I think from Kim and I think you will have done from this about your personality. Some of our others, we tend to focus more on what the companies have achieved and cash management stuff. I think any of you guys out there, you would be lucky to have Kim in your professional network to connect her on LinkedIn, offer her a job and then I can celebrate with her next time I'm in the US So I can't wait to see her as well. So thank you very much for your time today.

You're a superstar.

Thank you, Mike.