How to Stand Out and Advance Your Treasury Career with Andreas Weindel

Foreign welcome to this week's Treasury Career Corner podcast where I interview treasury professionals about their treasury careers. Each and every week I talk to them about how they've built their careers, where they are now, where they see both themselves and the treasury profession going to next. Let's get on with the show. This week's show, delighted to be joined by Andreas Weindel, the VP head of treasury at Esprit. Esprit is a international fashion brand that represents style and quality ever since 1968. Founded in San Francisco, presence in over 40 countries, approximately 900 directly managed retail stores, 7,800 wholesale points of store. God, there's so much. They're global fashion brand but actually the group markets products under two brands, namely Esprit and the EDC brand. But they're listed on the Hong Kong Stock Exchange and headquartered in both Germany and Hong Kong. But I will say Andreas was a very, very first ever guest of mine when we, as we were just saying before the show, did early podcasts, he was very kind to me and did a bit of a video session. So we might actually show you that. But we're two, three years younger then, so yeah, we've got a bit older and wiser since those days. But I'm going to go back to Andreas and get him to go through his career because it's fascinating. That's why I wanted again with a full podcast. So we' only been three years in the waiting. So Andreas, over to you sir. How did you first discover finance and then maybe the world of Treasury? Over to you sir.

Thank you very much. Appreciate it. Being asked again to contribute pleasure and to share my experience. Well, with exactly that same question started the video cast. I think it was already almost three years ago. It happens as to a lot of treasurers because when I started in 2000 entering corporate treasury world, at least in Germany you could not study becoming a treasurer. So it was purely by accident. I was interning in the US with a company called Siemens, I guess pretty much familiar to a lot of people, big electrical company I met there, the regional treasurer for the US and he was asking me if I like to do an intranet for the treasurer treasury department. And this is the first time I ever had a chance to get to know that there's something like treasury exists. So I had the chance to interview all the department heads of the group treasury there in that time, which was 1999. Found it so much interesting that I came back and wrote my thesis on cash pooling opportunities for Siemens in Latin America and Got hired afterwards straight into the group treasury in house bank in munich back in 2000. So I'm not the typical guy studying controlling banking, whatever, starting in accounting and working the way through. No, I really started straight away as in house consultant on risk advisory and financing within Siemens in Germany, being responsible for country companies, divisions starting right away with foreign exchange advisory, calculating tender calculation rates, doing hedging strategies, you know, learning, learning everything from scratch from the best I would say that time as I assume and is still one of the pretty much developed treasury departments in, in the corporate world.

And Andres, what was that like you knew you, you're fresh face to Treasury. Was there a formal training program at that stage for treasury for you with Siemens? Because as you say global, multinational really know their stuff or was it just you working with those guys or was there, you know, sometimes you have a sort of rotation program, you know, within different finance areas. But you were new to treasury this, this fresh faced treasury person. Was it just more on the hoof sort of thing?

More or less swim in the cold water. But on the other hand a huge global team. There's a lot of training within the group so with like off sites where the newbies got trained on, on the different skills but as well external training, you know that there's this consulting company which offered long time ago the first treasury seminars. So a week intensive training on the different areas of Treasury. So I guess without a little help it's hard to go into the nitty gritty details because you know, I mean doing the job as a junior you have your kind of a routine but you don't have the deeper knowledge behind certain things like calculating forward. What are the really the mathematical components to understand the product to be like equal talking to the bankers which offer you all kind of structured fancy products. But at the end you can always break them down in a spot and the forward deal or an interest rate.

Differential for example and then you sort of move through that role and grew within Munich and then to become sort of a head of regional treasury and then you know, then you moved on. But before we get to that sort of how did you grow over that? Time and again we'll have a number of listeners who were their first three years of treasury and they go oh okay, where do I go now? What sort of what was driving you? Was it just a natural path within Siemens at the time?

I wouldn't say so. I was not always the most brilliant study guy. So I stood out more in like showing results, you know, going for it, going for the extra mile or try to differentiate myself by, you know, ideas or going for projects and finish it, talk about it. So that was my strategy in Siemens as well. Looking for extraordinary projects. Of course always the add on to your normal stuff but I guess it's necessary if you really want to move on and do a career. Then you have to find a way to stick out. I would say talking to the listeners seek for opportunities to make a name, get to know people, get them to know you by name and by results. So do good and talk about it. That's the saying in Germany. I don't know if there's expression in English as well. And of course a little bit of luck. Always.

Yeah, all the way along. You'd spent eight years with Siemens. How did you then progress on what happened next?

After leaving like the treasury within Siemens and going into adventure with Nokia, I thought it's time, you know to leave like the multiple multinational known environment. And I had the chance to join Webasto Group auto and automotive supplier as taking the whole responsibility for their group treasury founding it from scratch and developing it. That was for me a chance which putting something up from the beginning and leave your handwriting. This was what attracted me to that role. Apart from that automotive industry is a big one in Germany. I mean this was 2008, 2009. I had a good luck.

I was going to say that by the way, an interesting time.

Yeah, automotive crisis, banking crisis. And I had to learn the hard way talking to banks on syndicated loan facilities. As in that time, no banker wanted to provide a loan to an automotive company at all. There the real challenges started for me and I kind challenges and as I was used to a quite stable environment the years before I was in responsibility of doing the job dealing with a crisis on two sides on the industry and on the banks. How much challenge can you get?

You were challenged. But again I've sometimes asked my podcast guests and I often do that. You walk in, it's a, it's a, it's a new role, it's a new company per se and you're founding that and things like that in a challenging time. What's your checklist again? I spoke to one of my previous lit. One of my listeners actually said I'm going back through and we will at some stage come up with a bit of a, I think a summary from you know, the 180 podcasts we've done with actually some of the recommendations. You know some treasurers say right, go in number one, cash number two, risks number three, hedging you know what, what's your sort of, as you say, you've got a very, I know you were on a personal level, you know, you've got very integrated approach, a very outgoing person, sort of with people giving advice and you've done various sort of articles. But you know, where does it start for you and then where does it not finish? But what are the, what's your checklist?

It all starts first with understanding the company and not only the business model of the company, but also more deep, the drivers, the players, how is finance or if there is a Treasury I faced in some parts there wasn't a Treasury at all. So how are the tasks that a Treasury does like taking care of the cash payments, foreign exchange, risk management, financing, how does that work? And understanding the reasons why the things are as they are as a start. So talking to a lot of people and try to make the picture like a puzzle, put it together and then you have the current situation before you're not having that. I would say it's tough to go through a checklist and say okay, we need to change this, this and this. Because every company has its, I would call it Treasury DNA and definition. One solution for a company doesn't fit necessarily to another because treasury is everything and nothing. There's so many specific definitions on it that you first need to identify the current picture and then set your priorities on the topics and see whether it's about transparency, like lack of, of visibility on the cash on the day to day basis at all. Because you don't have a global ERP system, you have 20 of them and you don't have a Treasury system, you don't have electronic account statements. I mean we're talking 20, 21 and there's still companies out there processing the whole stuff manually. But reality in especially in like the medium sized companies is in my eyes totally different. And this is, you know, a picture which probably some industry leaders on technology or whatever like to push. But reality is still way behind those topics.

It's an interesting one because you just mentioned there, I remember, I just looked it up whilst you were talking that one of our first podcasts was way back in March 2019 with an amazing guy called Joel Campbell. And Joel at the time, he's moved on, he's become a CFO now, but was the vice president, Treasurer, Chief Risk Officer at H and R Block who do tax in the US and everything else. I remember him telling me that when he first started his role there he had a very, very similar journey or experience but, you know, it sort of resonates with what you just said. And he said he had a great boss, a cfo, who said, I don't want you to do anything, per se, for three months. He said, well, you know, I could come in. So, no, I don't want you to make any changes. I just want you to come in, absorb the company, get to know what we're like. Because. And exactly as you said. And so it's obviously a common thing, maybe, but he said, you've got to get to know the DNA of us because we're different to your previous companies. We are different. And they were. But he just said that, you know, previous companies he joined, it was like, right, you know, within the first week, okay, how are we going to get this? You know, first month? Right, what are we going to do? And it was different. And he said it really helped him sort of get to know the business and make a hell of a difference, you know, that, you know, he felt sometimes in the first six months he was trying to play catch up, but then he understood it a little bit himself. It sounds like you were similar in many ways from that stage.

Well, absolutely. But you can imagine the last one and a half years with COVID around. And when I started Esprit, I had no onboarding because it was simply impossible. Working from home, meeting people, getting a feeling for the company. That's the challenge we're facing, I think, all over. Not necessarily explicitly in treasury, but of course you have the challenge not only to get an idea about the company, but also about the banks. Until today, no. No physical banker meeting. So how can you build a trustful relationship only via video calls. It's not an easy one.

No, it's not. And you have to face that and then talk us through moving on from, how do you say, Webasto? Is that right? And then the next. The next few moves, I think, because, you know, I'm enjoying our conversation, but I don't. I never want to run out of time. So talk us through how then you progress from there.

I got a call from a guy saying, you like sweets? I said, oh, I love sweets. Parago calling the famous Gummy Bear company, which was a total different approach than automotive, you know, being more on the debt side. But again, I mean, the challenges per se, by establishing a new treasury is it's about not about the numbers per se. It's more about processes, procedures, guidelines, guidance for the organization. And this is like the last jobs I did was more or less the same direction, getting transparency on the liquidity, get a good set of treasury report for the senior management and take care of the bankers. Having done enough setup of Treasuries then I thought I'd do quite often experiment. I joined a consulting company with the task of setting up a Treasury advisory business field for them. And this was like the first thing where I said okay, I come here, I have a hell of experience, I know a lot of people, I'm here to help. Obviously that doesn't work because knowing the industry. Yes. Knowing a lot of people, yes. But consulting is so much different than, you know, giving or exchanging ideas between treasurers. It's about concepts, it's a lot about sales. So that's why I decided then to move on to go back into, into the corporate role with Fabiano, the systemic gastronomy company having Italian restaurants all over the world. Well, coming back to the restructuring, they were already a little bit knocked when I came there. So there was like restructuring consultants in there trying to turn around the company, working on processes, et cetera right before COVID So cash forecasting was the topic then making sure that the company does not run out of liquidity. But unfortunately then with the restaurants having to be closed, the company got into insolvency. I moved on that path to my current role with this pre continuing so called protective shield procedure which is similar to an insolvency process but with a more liberate environment. I like restructuring actually because that's where you can move a lot of things and get a lot of insights and have results at the same time. Also it's of course pressuring, fulfill all legal requirements and you have a lot of external stakeholders sudden being in the game apart from the management. It also for me ensures as a treasurer there's a lot of focus on liquidity and therefore as I said at the beginning, choose opportunities to be seen being part of the game. And this is where you make visibility.

Well, I was going to say you mentioned about the visibility there and that's one of the things I was going to say that you like the opportunity to make a difference and that's one of the key things, you know, when you and I have had conversations and things that actually sometimes the spotlight moves off of treasury when you're a time of crisis that was out of cash flow and this happened and you know, I was talking to people throughout, you know we went all the way through the pandemic doing the podcast and you know, some people in mids podcast and they were kind enough to give me their time but treasury was right and you know, in some ways that people wanted. Do you know what? I want a bit of time out of the spotlight, Mike, but just get my breath back and then we'll be back into it. But with yourself, you've worked closely with the CFO and make that difference on liquidity and things. And is that where you just feel that you really shine something and you really enjoy it so much?

Well, absolutely. I mean, as I said, you get to know me as a kind of extrovertive guy. I like communication, I like to talk to people. And this is what you also need to have as a skill as a treasurer. You know, I mean, the importance of the topic, like as cash forecasting, for example, in these days, you have not only to put the numbers together, but you have also to sell them and not to sell them only to the management, but also to the bankers and tell us, tell a story that being confident. And I think I'm doing that. Not that bad.

And you've been through, as I say, these, these challenging times, but you've talked about best practice in, in cash and you've done various other, you know, contributions that people can find your information out there in the web and you make a real, you know, contribution about how treasury works. Where do you see, you know, treasury going from here? You know, we've come out of yet another crisis. We've had the Lehmans a few years ago and then we've gone through a pandemic. You predict that. Where do you see it now developing? Where do you see treasury going to next? You know, some people, you know, I had a call with someone recently, so can you. We'd like to do a panel session about digitization throughout the pandemic and how everyone was doing lots of it. I went no. They're like, oh, well. I said no, because it didn't happen. And oh well, some people have said. I said, well, a few people have done lots of things, but actually I, I've heard so many more people were just trying to cope and you know, continue back to basis and get through what was a really challenging time. And they did. But you know, with, with yourself, where do you see it going to next? What's the sort of recovery from here, do you say?

Well, it's just about. I'm not going to tell you about predictive analytics or whatever technology involving treasury because I mean treasury per se is always a leader on technology because it's about efficiency. Yeah. I mean we have this straight through processing. I mean imagine it's, it's that's 20 years ago where we started online banking even with floppy disks sending to the bank. So that path will continue for sure in one of the other ways. What I see it challenging is the fact of introduction of these new digital currencies. I would say this could have an impact whether it's going to be like purple use on this Internet of things in the more advanced industries talking being in fashion, retail, there's a lot going on in E commerce. So what about payment solutions there where I see consolidation need to happen as it's too many things out there. There is no real standardization. You have still these acquirers in the middle which earn a hell of a lot of money more than the banks in these days. So I guess this kind of business models will impact treasury apart from other topics like green financ, you know, sustainability as an impact of funding contracts to have it as a proof of, you know, a green company. So this will, in that area will, will continue, I guess. Yeah, going to be more standardized and, and the new normal, I mean ethical investments was like, you know, 10 years ago where you say okay, well I don't want to invest into this or that company because it produces something which is not ethical enough. So that was the start of the things. I guess we're gonna see more in that direction. Automation. Yes. I'm not convinced though whether the models like for totally foreign exchange automotion will happen, you know, like having a digital exposure calculated by some machine. So the fear of some people like treasury is going to be fully automated in all areas and we don't need any more people. I guess it's not gonna happen because it's too much, too much entrepreneurial behavior you need to have as a treasurer and more changing environments. I mean we had globalization. Now it's more like nationalization again in some parts.

Andres. I just wanted to jump in there actually because it was something we spoke that I've got by this time, the time this comes out, the episode will be out there with Frank Bechter from Puma, you know, good friend and stuff like that and fantastic show. Now one of the things we touched on a little bit in the show, but we also came on to an episode actually we explored a little bit, but probably didn't. And we've still got time with you that he mentioned at the point he said exactly as you said. You know, he's now not looking at doing RFPs for his banks. And this isn't, you know, give away confidential information. He said, mike, there is more value that we can get from working with our card issuers or you know, straight through processing some of those than he said, you know, squeezing our banks for a couple more points because the fact is they're doing a good job for us a lot of the time. But it's, it's actually other areas where we can add value as treasurers. And it sounds like you're seeing the same from the sounds of it that there's other important things to sort of to focus your time on.

Absolutely. And this is what I always say is, coming back to the point, what would I give advice for younger people in the area is like getting involved. Getting involved in the different areas of a company, whether it's sales, whether it's purchasing, treasury is, is sitting in the middle. Everything is about money. Either a company receives money or it spends it. As a treasurer we are sitting in the middle and being the link. Usually that sections don't talk to each other. I mean being there with the task of cash forecasting and you suddenly discover you're paying earlier than you're receiving the money, then the treasurer is then the first raising the hand. Something's wrong here. If the controlling guys don't do it because they have a different perspective, you.

Need to custodian that cash and look after it and things like that. So you know, what are the things that you're looking forward to talking to people about? What do you think that people should be when they're on the train or the plane, you know, whatever, however we get there, to the next conference, what are the things that you think are going to be, you know, top of.

Mind, big question is how the different business models sustain after the pandemic. Will E commerce continue the journey of being the thing or do we go back to, you know, like having exhibitions and doing the business over there? That would be the big question mark. Nevertheless, one is assured if you are not willing to adapt to new situations. And this is for me the key thing I learned within the last years. Adaptability, I would call it. A couple years ago everything was about agile and you know, being quick. This is a long term experience, entering new companies, different industries and we have to adapt, compensate, resilience, open your eyes and change perspectives.

Yeah, that sounds in some ways like your summary because usually we put in, well we'll put in your LinkedIn details in the show notes and everything else but would you say that's a summary or what other advice might you give to anyone today?

Listening, be proactive, look around, open your eyes always even you think in the super comfort zone. Recent events taught us all be prepared. Watching or hearing podcasts, looking what's going on into the market never hurts. Have an open eye and open mind. I would recommend learn from others, get connected. And this is why I'm very, very happy to talk to you because this is another opportunity to get connected.

Well, as you say. And I think there will be lots of people reaching out to connect with you following today. And as you said, the thing I was scribbling down there was about this openness and, you know, this open mindedness to new ideas and new learnings. And I think, you know, that's the thing I love through the podcast. I've learned a lot myself over the years, but also when I talk to treasure like yourself, you're constantly open to this new thing. A CFO says go, you know, and you're constantly, you guys are always ready for the next end and trying to learn. So it's brilliant. So amazing. Sir, as always, thank you for your time today. We'll put your details in the show notes. And as I said earlier in the show, I can't wait to see in real life rather than the vert talk to you in the virtual world as well.

My pleasure. Let's grab a beer then. Someday. Oh, hopefully soon.

Yeah, lovely. Thank you very much, sir. Thanks.

Good. Thank you.

Thank you. Hello, it's Mike here again. I hope you enjoyed this week's show. If you did, then maybe you want to follow the show or subscribe, depending on where you listen, whether that's itunes, Spotify or another great place to listen to the show from. It's totally free and means that you'll be the first to see each and every week when we release a new show. And maybe whilst you're there, you could even leave a quick review. Reviews and ratings are among the most important metrics for a podcast to effectively rank. And as you can probably appreciate, the podcast is a lot of hard work to produce. Every week it'd be amazing. Just take, say 20 seconds, leave a quick review of my amazing guests and their great career stories. We'd really appreciate it. Thanks very much and I can't wait to see you soon.