How Two Treasury Leaders Partnered with Their Businesses and Earned Treasury a Seat at the Table

Foreign. To this week's Treasury Career Corner podcast, where I interview treasury professionals about their treasury careers. Each and every week, I talk to treasurers about how they build their careers, where they are now, where they see both themselves and the treasury profession going to next. Let's get on with the show. This week's episode, I'm thrilled to be able to share with you that it's another Treasury Career Corner live event. This one, we held our first one in in Amsterdam in November 2025 with some amazing treasurers. We had Engin Dortepe, Director of Global Cash Management at Sabik Petrochemicals, and Aicha Arasoi Killic, the treasurer and Global Head at Bungi. Two great guests, really fascinating treasury career stories about how they achieved their career success, some of the challenges they've overcome and the future of the treasury profession. So enjoy today's episode and let's get on with the show. So, thank you very much for all showing up. I know it's just because there's free beer later. That's what I've been told about the guys in the Netherlands. But thank you very much for coming along. So what we do is, first of all, we get you concentrating and we get loads of enthusiasm. So, good evening, Amsterdam. You haven't let me down. Thank you very much. So. So we've got energy, we've got enthusiasm, but what we also want is your attention. So I do ask, if you've got phones, switch them off. Give yourselves this hour to yourselves, to your treasury careers and get to listen to three amazing treasurers. It's an investment in you. If you like, you've all come out here to. Here we go. I've got a bit of the structure. Yes, it works. So, first intro. I'm Mike Richards, spoken to a lot of you over the past couple of weeks. I run the treasury recruitment company. I put on these events because as a recruiter of 27 plus years, I then started a podcast seven years ago that's grown and grown, 405, 408 episodes. Recently had the Global Treasurer of Amazon. We talked to global treasurers and you guys get the knowledge. That then became the live event. But the live event actually only happens. Oh, they go, there's us. This is who does it with me, Katie, my colleague Joe in the us, and Carly, who does all the hard work. But aside from that, we wouldn't be able to put this on without the support of our amazing hosts and sponsors. So can I have the guys from Baker McKenzie, please? Hands up, big hands. Come on. Those guys there, they bless in the building. So please be careful and don't break anything, okay? Because they are lawyers and they will sue you. We have Chatham Financial. There you go, Sarah from Chatham State Street Investment Management. Great. And tis great. Now those guys, they've got the drinks tickets so if you want a drink you have to go and talk to them and also find out what they do because they sponsor the events and that let us do these things as well to give you this treasury knowledge. But this is going to be the run through. I'm going to talk through with each of our guests, allow them to introduce themselves. They'll talk about their treasury careers, how they've grown them, where they see their treasury correct. You know the treasury profession going to next. And what we also do is then do question and answer. It's up to you guys to ask questions. When did you last get an opportunity in this kind of forum? I know we're going to get some answers downstairs in the bar but joking aside, you actually get to ask these three amazing treasurers some of their views on treasury and everything else. Then we'll also finish up with some key takeaways before going for refreshments. So first of all I'll let my first panelist Engin introduce himself over to you sir.

Hi. Thank you Mike. My name is Engin Dortepe. I'm the director for the global cash management at Sabic and also I'm the managing director for the SABIC Capital. So I'm living in the Netherlands nearly for 20 years actually I came here as a student and as every, you know, like the logical, reasonable 23 year old, you know, like the young man, it wasn't very difficult for me, you know, like to decide for a job actually, you know, like it was in Amsterdam. The salary was good so. And then I didn't know what I was going to do actually. So I started my career as a derivatives trader at Garantebank International. I stayed in banking nearly for 11 years and then when I left the bank I was the head of the foreign exchange and derivatives desk. Then I made a significant shift in my career actually I joined Heineken. So I worked in Heineken for nearly in treasury for two, two and a half years and then moved to business transformation. Worked with data and technology guys and the business controller and then one day Mike gave me a call and then I joined Sabic. I started my career there in corporate finance and in the last one and a half years I am leading the global cash management team now A lot.

Of people know who Sabic are. Can you just for the audience explain.

Exactly well, how Mike described me? Sabic was, you know, like I have a company, it is one of the biggest companies that you never heard of. And then it was true actually. So when I googled it is the chemical arm of Saudi Aramco. So it is one of the biggest chemical companies in the world, operating nearly all around actually. And then most assets in Saudi Arabia but operating from US to China. And well, yeah, it has a very strong mandate from the Saudi government as well to diversify the economy from oil to more, you know, like the value added products as well. And Sabic Capital is the financial arm of Sabic that does all the international financings throughout Amsterdam.

Cool. And what we're going to do is dip into the earlier stages of each of our panelists careers in a moment and then some of the choices they've made as well. And then again you can explore it when you do the questions. So Aycha, over to you.

Hi.

Nice and loud. Go on.

Yeah, I'll go up.

Thank you.

So my name is Aicha. I started my career in banking actually in corporate banking initially with Citibank and then with HSBC Bank. Then I left banking to move over to the corporate side. I left banking to join Shell in London and I worked for Shell for just about a decade in a number of roles. My last treasury role at Shell was a deputy treasurer role for downstream business in London. And the role that made me move from UK to the Netherlands was my last role at Shell which was the head of finance role, a regional finance lead role for exploration business in Africa. So I stepped out of treasury and went into business for quite a challenging part of the world. Based here in the Netherlands. Yeah. Then I left Shell and I joined Bunge in 2016 where I've been since I did cover a number of roles including global head of Capital Markets and lastly the EMEA and Asia treasurer role together with head of Global treasury operations.

And who are Bunge again? Just for the sure, we should know them.

So Bunge is a. I think Shell doesn't need much telling, but Bunge is a global agricultural, commodity trading and food company. It basically connects farmers with consumers managing the whole supply chain for a number of agricultural commodities.

And it was quite more by luck than judgment when I invited my panelists that there's a lot of crossover in their backgrounds as well. So we can talk to that. But one of the other things was that you all had an early start in banking and you Then made that shift into Treasury. I wanted to go through. Starting with yourself, Engin, when what was the moment you decided a pivot into treasury or. I know it's more. Was it by plan that you thought treasury is the area for me or. Explain it to the audience if you will, and then we'll go across the panel.

Well, I think, you know, like the banking back then in 2000s, early 2000s, it was the shiny times, actually. So it was, you know, like it was not as a young graduate, you know, like it was not a difficult decision to go for banking. But then. And also it gives quite good impression because we were creating solutions, hedging solutions for the big companies actually, from airlines to conglomerates to production companies. So then again, it gives a very good sense of, you know, like you need to understand your customer and then create a solution for that. And then I was lucky enough to have my own P and L as well, so I was able to trade. So then again, it gives you the commercial mindset also and result orientation. But the bank says one habit, actually. If you are good, they keep you happy and then they keep you on the same spot. And then that was sort of the trap that I felt I fell into, actually, because I was doing the same thing for 11 years. I mean, I felt myself like a dentist, actually. I mean, there's nothing wrong being a dentist, but dentist does the same job, you know, like for 30 years and then I didn't want to do that. And moving to Heineken, you know, like, I think it was the same with Coca Hellenic bottling or Shell as well, you know, like it was really an eye opener for me actually. And then that helped me to diversify it.

And what was it like? You know, did you know about treasury or. You know, we sometimes talk about how treasury needs to sell itself a little bit more to the world. And you guys, that's why we do these events and things. What did you think?

Well, then again, there was a difference actually. So I knew about coming from banking, knowing the banks, you know, like, it helps a lot in terms of doing the business. But what Heineken teach me, actually the first thing is that beer doesn't like to travel. So what it means is that you have to produce locally, you have to sell locally. It is the same case for Coca Cola as well. And then if you operate in 70 countries, then at least there's a crisis in five of them. So you need to really be close to your customer and then internal customer and then understand what is happening there. I mean, this year it is Nigeria, next year it is Brazil, the year after it is somewhere else. So what is happening in this country, how these companies work actually. So that mindset shift which I learned in Heineken as well and another thing, you know, like, similar to Coca Cola also, you know, I learned marketing. So for Heineken, the outside of the bottle is as important as the inside of the bottle as well. People look in the covers, you buy it. If you like to taste, then you buy the second one. So going back in banking it was extremely straightforward. You have a P and L. If you meet your above your target, perfect. If you are below your target, well, too bad. But in Heineken or most of the corporates it is more about, you know, like how you present your work, how you sell your work and then is as much as important. Like the storytelling is as much as important. The work itself actually.

What attracted you to Treasury? You know, Shell, it's a mega major. So did you know them well?

That's a great question because I ended up in treasury. But I think deep inside there were queues. So I, if you haven't figured it out by now, I'm Turkish, I'm originally from Istanbul. So I wanted to be a corporate banker. It kind of looked sexy. When I was in school we had some university instructors, teachers, professors who were double working, advising banks and so on. And all those examples brought to me made it look fun. So I after an internship at one of the banks I mentioned earlier, they liked me and they asked me to start working part time whilst I was still studying in school. And I did that in my last year at university in corporate banking. Then I graduated, they offered me a role and then all these other big multinational corporate banks in Istanbul back then offered me jobs too. And I chose one. I started in one and then back in the day in Turkey. I mean we weren't really part of the global world of graduate talent, but they used to choose one or two people to send to London for their executive graduate development program for investment banking. So they chose me. I came to London, trained for two months, fully paid, excellent program, with a lot of tutors, majors of their industries and surrounded with people who studied, coming from New York, Hong Kong, all over the place, gathered there for that training. And I loved it. And I felt like I needed that challenge and I needed to be in that environment. So I go back after two months and I tell them, can you please send me for an assignment in London, I want to work abroad, I want to try that. And they said to the 22 year old Aicha. No, no, no, we need you here. We're going to grow, we're going to go big. We need you here. You know, it was disappointment. So you know, I did that. I enjoy corporate banking. It's an excellent learning ground. You know, you learn how to analyze your financial statements, do your rating models. If you are surrounded with good relationship managers, you learn how to build relations, which is a key skill whether you're in treasury or in another part of the corporate world. It was an excellent learning ground for me. But then that drive for. I want to go beyond this, I want to, I still need an assignment, can I go? And then it didn't happen. And then I just sold my own problem. I applied, I got accepted for a role at Shell and my first role at Shell wasn't actually in Treasury. So I bite the bullet, I took the risk. 23 years old back then I just started because there was no roles available in Treasury. I started in controlling function as an analyst. Yeah. But then, you know, I moved to uk. I know no one in the UK and I worked hard, it worked well and I knew treasure was close to my heart because of that few years of experience after school and I just introduced myself to the treasury teams, they liked me. And then I got hired into treasury after my first assignment as a junior treasury manager and then I went up the ranks pretty quickly and did a number of roles. So that's how it evolved for me. And I truly enjoy treasury because if you're in a major global organizational setting it allows you to intersect many different parts of the organization and, and if you have the personality and the curiosity, you can be very close to the business and all those things appealed to me. But I also stepped out of it and then came back to it in that sense. I specialize in treasury but I would say I probably am a rounded treasury professional, rounded finance professional. I qualified as a chartered accountant whilst I was in the uk. So it's kind of accountancy and treasury can be counterintuitive to each other. We often have heated debates with controllers on whether this, the accounting treatment or the real money value that matters in a lot of discussions. But knowing what they do also helped me on this side. So in that sense I tried to do different things but then yeah, treasury has always been close to my heart in that sense.

So I came back and going to come to you that transition to say BIC and it's a global and obviously there's different cultures as well. It's a real melting Pot, you and I have talked about this before. What have you found the greatest challenge and also the greatest reward from that?

Well, Sabik is, I mean one of the biggest challenges or you know like the differences actually. I mean our, you know like the lonely and beautiful country has been living on debt in the last 300 years. Saudi is totally other side of that actually. So it is, you know like extremely cash rich. So all the muscles are developed on investing cash, not raising cash actually not raising money. It doesn't exist. The borrowing concept doesn't exist or liquidity management. I find myself privileged lucky enough to be the director of a cash management of a company and I'm sitting on 12 billion of cash actually. So why do you need to manage your liquidity? You know, that is. But get ambitious growth targets and then those growth should happen should only be or can only be available with leverage. Then again but that requires significant mindset shift because the company has been set up, established by and still being governed by engineers. So the finance or the corporate finance is not their concern actually. So I need to explain a lot of times because what is debt? Why do we need it, how do we raise it? Like why bonds, why banks, why this bank, why Japanese, why not Americans? And then also why credit rating is important, why do we need to take care about our investors? Those things were extremely important actually. But also what is interesting in Sabic is that it's a truly international company actually we have people all around the world and then it is transforming quite fast. And in the last one and a half years ago actually we had a new group treasurer and then that's where I have been appointed as the director and we reshaped all the treasury. So it is, I mean if you want to do something then what is the reward? Actually a lot of opportunities are there and I'm not a person, I say yes easily actually and then I don't shy away from. I don't know, but let me try to figure it out. So I said yes a lot of things and then. Well then I figured out and then it worked well. So crafting things and then the shaping things I think you know like that was the reward in that, you know like the growing environment.

Richard, with you and bungee food, agriculture, commodities rapidly changing, volatile. What have you found most challenging or coping with in you know it says a global treasury in that sector.

Yeah, it was a shift for me from Shell to Bungi. Similar to you Shell liquidity is not a problem, highly rated. The challenge there is finding counterparties that are at least rated similar to you to place your cash with, move to the other side. I felt like the true treasury work started. There was a crunch, you know, liquidity, there was stress, the company performance wasn't good for a period of time and then there were other challenges, then there was a turnaround. But all in all, in trading business, you really work with highly smart, highly market savvy individuals who are all, for example, gifted amateurs in fx. They all have their opinions on things which could generate results. And of course you are there to protect and manage risk. So often you may clash, you may need to hold your course and then who are you? You kind of look young and where are you from? Where did you come from? Do you even know what we do, how the commodity markets work and so on? So it hasn't been easy, I would say initially. But once if you show humility, want to learn and show that you learn fast and then you bring some ideas and actually we generate results and then you earn your seat at the table, so then you become a credible partner, not just some roadblock between them and the markets. But yeah, it is difficult. I mean, you work a lot of highly intellectual people who already have an opinion on, I mean, they trade commodity so they want to trade other things as well. And then, you know, you just, there has to be some boundaries around that. But it all is up to how you present yourself, how confident you are in yourself. But it's also enjoyable, it's equally rewarding. You learn a lot. So I've enjoyed it.

We'll stay with you for a moment. You now coach and lead these very diverse global international teams. And a lot of these guys in the audience will have exposure in a similar way. How do you get the best of those out of those teams that might be working remotely or quite distant from you and. Or any mistakes you've made along the way as well, and things that you wish, you'd obviously never make. Mistakes. We know.

In other words, tell me about it.

I know, but, but any things that you can share with the audience and then we'll come to you.

Mary, people are your only assets. I think you may be trading this, buying this, manufacturing this and that, but your people, your teams are all you have. And you're only as good as the weakest link in the chain. And in global work environment, it's important to create a collaborative platform for your teams to work together and then to feel that they are all equal and there's open communication. So I found that if you facilitate a platform where people can Talk to each other from Southeast Asia to Middle east or to Europe. Explain their issues, what they're dealing with. They're able to connect with each other. And then, I mean, everyone is smart and everyone is skilled in many ways. The light bulb slit, you just facilitate it. That's all you do. But you need to encourage people to bring out the best. I mean, some cultures don't want to speak up. I mean, they're brilliant, but they won't say a word. So you have to, you know, at that point, it's not treasure skills, it's really basic human and personal skills that come into play. You need to pull out, encourage them, motivate them, and then let them speak and share and ask. And then the other one talks. And then this collaborative environment often helps achieve. Well, then the other thing is you need to empower your people. You need to trust them and then let them go. I've made so many mistakes. I still do. But one mistake I made was I was very obsessed about doing well and doing the right thing, that I wouldn't let my people fail. That was a feedback that came to me a while ago and it was spot on. I mean, I just, you know, whenever I felt somebody was doing something wrong, I would step in or do it or, you know, help them immediately, show them the right answer and put them on the right track. But that so in a controlled manner. I've learned throughout my career that you let people fail and learn and then next time actually you don't need to be even around. Allowing people the space to do their own thing, to show themselves, to present themselves in front of the business is vital. You just recognize people by letting them show their work, by speaking up. So you create platforms where they just don't only talk to their internal treasure peers, but their other colleagues from across the organization. And you throw stretch assignments at people as well. I mean, if you feel somebody has the energy and they could do well, you put them in an assignment in another part of the world or you allow them to partner with someone else. That's the way to grow. And if you trust your people and you're fair, I find that if you gain a lot of loyalty and get a good performance out of that.

Thank you.

I mean, I have not that much to add, actually. I do agree with most of the comments here. But what I also have recognized that I worked previously both Heineken and in Savic, two different big transformation projects as well. And then what I realized is that for a transformation to be successful, then first you need to get a buy in from the people and then to convince people. I think, you know, like starting with, okay, why are we doing things? Actually the moment that if people are not convinced why we do things and then you know, like that why we are changing, then I mean, forget about everything. Actually you can have the best systems implemented or you know, like the best strategy or you know, like the best structure. But if people didn't buy it, then, well, you know, like that two years later another consultants came and then, you know, they start a new transformation project. So I think it starts with the people on top of that and then getting to buy in and convincing the people on the why. I think what I can add on top of Aicha and Manje and we'll.

Stay with you for a moment. Obviously, treasury professionals in this room, they're trying to partner with businesses, you're trying to get out to the business. And you know, how have you effectively done that? Partnered with the business and then also moved treasury because again we've talked about this, moving from operational to strategic and being a business partner, there's lots of business or we're a partner to the business and then people go, who are you? Who's Treasury? How do you do that? And then we'll go across the panel.

Let me give you one simple example actually. Then again, coming from a company that cash and the financing was never an issue. So then again, who is Treasury? So that was step one actually that I needed to pass. Then the second thing is that it is all about understanding the people and then what they need. And then most of the time, you know, like the what they think is a problem is not really a problem actually, or what your problem is not their problem. So most of our affiliates as cash manager, then again what I wanted is that okay, right, cash needs to be at the right place. So I want to, you know, like the dividend, upstream dividends as much as possible. We went to the affiliates and then say, yes, but they want to stick to a lot of cash buffers. But I mean it is not that cash that they need actually they need a better forecast. If they have a better forecast and then we created them a better forecast how to do that, then the problem is solved. But on top of that they said, yes, but our cash is going up and down. There are cyclicalties, okay, fine, then we created them revolving credit facilities from the local banks that they could, you know, like to borrow. But then these are engineers so utilizing a credit facility is for them a failure. So I need to convince them Guys, it is not bad to borrow from a credit facility. As long as you are not addicted to that, then, you know, with that, you know. But that took two years, by the way. You know, it wasn't easy.

How did they buy it?

Well, at the end of the day, what has been managed is that they realized and then their managements realized that the cash efficiency is one of the most important things. And then they should be able to operate with thin cash. And then that is the success. Not sitting on a lot of cash, actually. So what we are trying to do, the moment that they are convinced it is something good for them as well, then it's, it is achievable. But those convincing steps, you know, that needs to be step by step. Or another example, you know, let's say TMS is your problem, our problem. But a TMS is treasury management system is never a problem for a CEO. CEO wants to have higher profits, full stop. Then you know like the. Okay. Then you know, like, because I made this battle recently, actually. Okay, you want higher profits, then you know, like you need less interest expense. Okay. For less interest expense, we need better visibility, better forecasting, better analytics. And to get to that, I need this tool. So you want better, higher profits than bring me in the moment that I start crying, I want this because it's my problem. But the decision maker, I mean the CEO hasn't, or the CFO doesn't have a problem. So understanding the problem is, I think.

Yeah, so I mean, nobody just gets given a seat or gets to be accepted. I found that in some shape or form, you always end up having to earn your credibility. But that's doable and it can be done in any environment. I think flexibility and adaptability really help. So that's quite key I find as a Treasury professional as well. But partnering with the business requires you to understand the business. I think first of all, I find that it's vital to understand what business your company is doing. Leave aside the treasury part. Who is doing what, what are we producing, why, where, how are we managing the risks around that? You know, going and seeing the plans, understanding the business, nothing to do with treasury is vital. At the end of today, I'm going to represent corporation in front of banks. I'd like to be able to tell the story. I need to be a good storyteller. So I need to learn the business well. And I find that that journey of trying to learn the business often helps me get my way into the business as well because they get to know about me from my questions. Line of questioning or understanding. And then gradually you get invited, but you just earn it. I mean nobody just goes and gives it to you. And often settings are challenging. I mean I was managing the finance function for exploration business in sub Saharan Africa, responsible for countries like Nigeria, Gabon, and I remember those meetings in Nigeria where they wouldn't listen to a woman. So I'm not trying to generalize but it wasn't in the culture that this foreigner came in and you know, but they were great at telling me and then, you know, coming to me when I've just started to work with them. And it was quite counterintuitive to a treasurer before who was used to dealing with millions and where to put it and so on to work with all these smart geoscientists who were basically promising a below 5% probability of finding oil and gas somewhere and you know, money and billions to spend meanwhile in that effort. That's just how that business is. It was quite counterintuitive. So you have to let your baggage go and then just keep an open mind and sit with them and understand and then put forward a proposal. You have to put forward a proposal asking for money and then you know, which is in the form of, you know, goes to an investment committee for approval and you have to support it. So that requires a lot of partnership and understanding. But it's not just a matter of saying yes to everything, it's also saying no when it doesn't make sense to you and having a bit of the courage and accepting the fact that you will not be very popular from time to time. I think that's quite key as well. Stopping things. It feels very painful in the moment, often very painful. But then in the mid run it corrects itself and then that pain becomes some sort of a victory or common success. But yeah, I've been in situations where war broke somewhere and then in the supply chain they thought, okay, that country's in war now we'll shift everything to that. I need that much of that currency and we need to do it now. Can we buy this much? No, no, no. That currency, that country that just started the war, the currency collapsed. It costs now X percent more to start buying that. And by the way, I know that there will be sanctions coming in. I will have a convertibility, I will have an issue very soon. I won't even be able to get the money out. So let's stop and you know, let's just take our time to decide and then go xyz no, no, no, you're stopping us. So you know, how do you go into those situations, keep your cool, make your points, but yet respect what they want to do and ensure an open environment where maybe a wider audience comes in and judges the situation. It felt really painful. In the moment you're not popular, but in the end, people understand. So I think also at times like this, it's vital with the business that you're confident and you speak with the right market acumen, examples, and you factuate what you say and sooner or later it lands.

So again, you guys should listen to the podcast more. So one of the reasons being, when we did our session in New York earlier this year, had very good friend Summer Simmons, Victoria's Secret, she encountered just this very problem. And she was doing a lot of this. What she discovered is that a lot of the other teams, Tax, for instance, didn't really understand Treasury. So she instigated corporate treasury 101. She went out to the business, ran these classes and these groups and helped brought them in the room, taught them. And then, you know, they were doing this with accounts payable. They're doing this, just transformed a lot of this stuff. Now we were sitting there and you were thinking there was Sandra from Bristol Myers Squib, you know, global multinational. You had Frank there from another global insurance group as well. And they just sat there, said, we're stealing that idea. They went, we're going to do that ourselves. And they literally have instigated those programs. That's one of the good things as well that you guys are describing as well. Now I want to come back to another point. So we've got about 10 minutes left. We're going to do some Q A in a minute. But before we do that, I want to ask another question of the panel. Then we do Q A and they've got some great takeaways for you guys. And also you will get to quiz them afterwards over refreshments. I will say to you. So first of all, Engin and we'll go across the panel. We go to a lot of conferences. You know, I've seen you at various ones. And we were just talking about it before, ladies, there are lots of sessions. Some of the headlines are anything. You know, they could put AI in any other title, you know, just to fill the room a little bit more. They would, you know, and a few years ago is blockchain and everything else. Which are the. Not the sessions, but which are the things that are top of mind to you as treasury that, you know, top two or three maybe, or top two even that you think Treasurers in this room should be thinking about and maybe the one they shouldn't really worry about for now. We'll come to you Engin, then go across and then we'll do questions.

I think, you know, like the two things actually one of the, the most important thing is going to be data and analytics actually. So how to leverage AI? Is AI going to replace us? I don't think so. But you know, like the thing is that if we don't leverage AI, then we would be replaced by another one. But then this is going to come. We need to compensate it with all the soft skills actually, because then that is, I mean what ChatGPT cannot do is, you know, like the convincing, you know, like the money or you know, like the U for a credit deal actually. So to what extent, you know, like then investing in the social skills to understand the different cultures and then the real problem so that we can solve it by leveraging all the data and analytics. Actually that is more or less what I'm thinking.

We would be going ahead geopolitics and macroeconomy. I think as a treasurer you need to understand where the world is headed, what are the key schemes, what's happening with trade in the world. And it just puts you in a different place when you're having conversations with the business so that you can smell what is going to happen and be ready for it. So it's really anything that would equip me and my teams with market acumen, understanding the possible scenarios, the macroeconomic factors shaping up world demand, supply, trade dynamics. That's quite vital because I should be able to smell something before it happens, then I've added value to the organization. I mean if you know a country is negotiating with IMF XYZ and then you can say there will be a depreciation, we just need to cover your position. And they said no, no, no, it's so costly it will eat up all our margin. This is the maths, this is your margin, this is how likely the devaluation is going to be. And then, you know, so scenario is here. And so that way of thinking only comes with making sure you're very well connected to the world reality of commerce, trade and politics. So I think that's number one and I don't think any sort of technology would replace that. It's a lot of insights. It's acumen AI. You throw a problem at AI, it will give you a solution, but it won't synthesize for you what your corporation does and how it ties in with what's happening and then what are the outcomes. You still need a human brain. You, you should still use it. Absolutely. But just take it and then make it your own. And the second one is technology. Whether it's like you said, blockchain it was, now it's AI, it could be something else, but I don't think it's to replace what we have, but rather to support and three things to automate. But really three S's as I see it, to simplify, standardize, streamline. So really getting your basics as automated as possible. Cash forecasting, your day to day cash management operations, your FX dealing, if it's not a volatile business, but it's kind of standard. So all of that is enabled by algorithms or various technologies you can use. Make sure you basically deploy as much as possible and then leave time for your people to think and put into play intuition for markets. So I think it's those two things. Geopolitics, macroeconomy and technology.

Cool. And actually on the back of that, some of the guests that I've spoken to recently, we were talking about the use of technology and actually I did the session and it was the session in Budapest actually and someone was asking me did I tend to use it in recruitment. I said no, I said I don't necessarily use it recruitment. It gives me more time to do other things like these events and everything else. But also one of the other points I've got from some of the people we've had on the podcast, some of the treasurers, and the best example is making a sandwich and you put it in there, said make me a ham and cheese toastie on, you know, with chat GPT and it will come out with an average and it'll be a really poor average, really because thousands of bits of data and backward data it's pulling in. But actually if you say make me a ham and cheese toast that Gordon Ramsay would make without the swearing, but you know, make me this perfect sandwich, make this the two different things and there'll be different ingredients and different. But it's actually, as you say, the technology, the prompts, the things that you're putting in there, you know, it's garbage in, garbage out. But actually if you put in the right things and the right questions. So questions we're going to go to you guys in the audience. Oh, one here.

Yeah, this question is for you because I could relate when you were saying about African countries. So how do you explain the sense of urgency? How did you explain the sense of urgency when you Were talking to your African colleagues because you gave the example of Gabon. So, you know, everything in Gabon takes place at its own pace. But for me, everything is so urgent. Like even the dividend declaration takes three months when you have to get approval from the regulator. Yeah. So getting that sense of urgency in your African colleagues, how difficult was it for you? Because for them it's a way of life. Right. I mean, the war is there, sanctions in there, regulation keeps on changing, but for me to get that money out of Gabon as soon as possible is my highest priority. Yeah, excellent question. And I have an anecdote, actually. I was in Nigeria and we were not allowed to travel extensively, but only being for security reasons, but in these specific places. And it's quite representative of the way of working. We ordered some pizza and the pizza wouldn't come and wouldn't come. And then, you know, after a few hours and anytime from now, it will come anytime from now. That was the response we got. So, yeah, it's a bit cultural, but I think if you know that you can try and work around that. Ironically, I find that things just work. I mean, the airport's there. I'm taking examples outside the function, but I think they're quite transferable. I mean, everything happens last minute, but it works. And everyone is on the plane. All baggage is on the plane. You should see how manual it is. But it just works. I think people often discredit them for the fact that it looks lazy or late, but it works. So it's just not in maybe the culture to do it early enough, which is what we in Europe or in the Western world are considered more orderly. Well, which one is orderly? I don't know. In Europe there's a delay, then nothing works there. It's last minute, but it works. So I found that it was a bit of a shift in my mind to trust them with it, but also try to meet somewhere in the middle. You do more work for sure. You do more explaining, you do more reminding. Eventually you will get there, but accept and manage your stakeholders that this is going to be different. It will be on a different timeline, but it will get there. I find that it works. And they're so clever at coming up with solutions. What we could add in there is making sure they're sustainable solutions and not one offs.

Yeah. Other questions? Yes, please.

Thanks for the very interesting stories. You mentioned that as treasurers you would suggest focusing on learning the global trends and of course learning the technologies that are coming or have already come. And at the same time, I heard so many times the word like building bridges. But for building bridges we all need some soft skills. What do you think on this question? Which soft skills would be the most helpful in the treasury work?

Start with you Engin.

I think going back to your Gabon example actually it starts with listening and not making any assumptions or any judgments because then again there's a problem, you need the dividend assumptions or declarations are delayed by three months when they are asking for a loan. Are they also delayed by three months or are they more urgent? So then again, so if people, I mean it is not that people are lazy actually it is the different thing. So then again, you know, so when you want something from people, okay, then how it is beneficial for them actually what is in it for them? And then if they get this, then they are going to do it faster. So if they were totally lazy then they wouldn't ask for a loan application in the three months that place as well. So I think the listening is the most important part in my opinion without making judgments. And one of the most important thing is that I think around the room it is the same case as well. We are so many different cultures and then there are a lot of things are lost in transition so that we need to be aware of that. I mean when a British person says well that's very interesting, let me think about that, I know how to interpret that versus a Dutch or a Turkish person says this also. But then again the same thing can be understood or interpreted differently to Asian versus to a French people or to a Brazilian actually. I mean those differences in the cultural codes which I always try to keep in my mind as well.

Aicha.

Yeah, I agree with Engin. I think awareness on cultural attributes is an important skill. It helps you uncover people, get the best out of people and adjust your style basically to be able to work with them. Communication I think is vital in treasury we are often seen as technical geeks doing their own thing in our corners. And if you let it be like that, then you'll be a lonely geek. But if you have the empathy to tell it in simple terms to others, I mean we are all working with highly intelligent people. You earn respect and in return you get something as well. You build your connections, you start building your village, people who will support you. And if you help people at tough times also you'll find that it finds you back. So I think it's important to not be carried away by just your daily priorities. Be open to people and then be humble. And nothing specific to treasury actually these attributes are needed for any professional, but in an area which is considered to be highly technical, I think they pay off even more.

So these guys. Oh yeah, this is the last question you've got in there quick. But we will also have time with the panel as well.

It felt very inspiring now that I think I'm just gonna combine it. So I'm a bit younger than you, I have less experience. So it felt very inspiring for me to see that you can still stay passionate about Treasury. So I started my career as an FX trader, then I moved to treasury advisory. So it was like always doing projects, etc. I'm just curious, after spending so many years in treasury and what else would you do? Like if you are to take an alternative path, what still stands attractive for you? So within Treasury, I think the first question I would ask myself is have I done enough of everything? Is there other areas which I can tap into? It's just easier when you're within the same function. If nothing interests you or if that's not viable then. And then is this a function that's being led in such a way that it supports talent to grow and so am I in the right place? That's a fair question to ask. And then what is the broader organization then? What else can I possibly do? Commercial finance, FPA tax, if you have passion for it, M and a corporate development finance aspect of corporate development are all some of the other kind of functions areas which may exist in a lot of corporates, more so in global corporates perhaps. But how do I naturally connect via my work to those? If not, then just do a cold call to those and inquire and find out more and try to get in. Maybe accepting the fact that it will be a parallel move. I mean my move from deputy treasurer downstream into head of finance role for Exploration Africa was a parallel move. It took me a while to digest the fact that I'm not being promoted here. I'm taking a sidestep going into something else brand new. Am I doing the right thing? Why would I do that? But it was the best thing to do. It broadened me in ways that I couldn't have imagined and it made me more of a commercial leader. You know, you have to give in some, take some, but in the end it pays off and it requires a bit of faith and mid to long run vision. So in the short run a lot of things will not make sense. It will feel that way, but I think you need to do the analysis. Pros, cons. I used to build models to judge what are the pluses? Whatever works for you as an individual, but you come up with your way of calculating and then convincing yourselves which route makes sense. It will feel like taking a step back sometimes or taking a side step, but a few steps later you'll see that it's actually a definite up.

Yeah, just, you know, let me compliment. I totally agree with you, but I am a little bit more simplistic than your action. So if I am bored then I do something else. So then the question is that what is something else actually? And then when you are bored it is a little bit more difficult to go up. So parallel move is a better move thing actually. And you know, three of us former companies said this sort of good thing actually pushing people out of the comfort zone. So when I was in Treasure, then I became the finance business partner of the Agile Transformation. I worked with the IT guys, data technology, okay, One part was Boston Consulting Group McKinsey which I had a familiarity with, but the IT guys I had no clue. And then I learned, you know, like how they are think I learned working with post IT section, you know, and then believe me, it was extremely challenging to explain explain the difference between capex and OPEX to an IT director. But then again that experience was in my opinion the most valuable thing because I learned, you know, like the how to explain things to the people who has no clue what I'm talking about actually in bank or in Treasury, I mean we have this sort of a luxury that, you know, like everybody speaks the same language, same background, things are easy. So switching to these side things, I think, you know, that helped me a lot actually. And also at Heineken for example, if you want to be a cfo, you need to be a controller. You need to check that box and then okay, then okay, I want to be a cfo. I decided I also worked one year as a controller and then I realized I don't want to spend my time doing a budget and then explaining rest of my time why it is deviating actually. So then you know, like the moving back to treasury was, you know, at least, you know, like I convinced myself okay, my place is in treasury, but then again trying something else is just convinced sometimes, you know, like that what we have valuable in our hand as well.

So they got some great takeaways and I'm gonna also take some video from the back of the room. So if we would again you don't have to go through all of them, but you can explain to the audience your takeaway.

Then again we are problem Solvers So we generate create value to our customers or to business. As long as we solve the problem, not we are the problem actually. And then diversification, going back to the same discussion, I think you know, like it's the biggest asset that we can get in ourselves as well. And then back to our discussion, I think all these transformation people without getting the people buying them, nothing happens actually. And all of them goes back to the influencing actually we all have good things in our mind, but if the message is not there, if we don't have these soft skills to influence to dividends get in three months time, then the money is not in the bank account actually.

Yeah. So look, I've referred to these points throughout the course of the discussion. What I find that a lot happens throughout your career. So what is vital is that you stick to your guts and your moral compass is important that you stay true to yourself. You'll find yourself in situations which challenge you personally and I think holding your ground, allowing your values lead you and not just the ways that come through your way is important and that will shine no matter where you are, whether you're in the treasury function or in another part of finance or in just a commercial environment. So I think that's important. I try to stay true to myself and I also would like every team member of mine to do the same. If it doesn't feel right to them, it probably isn't and they should speak up generally. I mean, I think keeping an open mind and remaining flexible is a life skill. I was able to move from one country to the another to another when the phases in my life allowed it. And I accepted assignments that had nothing to do with what I originally had in mind, but they just made a lot of sense. They had a few things that they would add to me. So that openness opened doors in many different ways for me. So I think not being rigid and being open pays off. Observe your environment, something that I'm still not that good at, but networking smartly. So build your village for those of you that have children, the saying goes, you need a village to raise a child. It's the same for careers. And it's not your immediate team or your immediate function actually. You need champions and sponsors outside your function, your team that will speak about you and when the time comes, they will have an anecdote to tell about you. And it would make all the difference. So, so how do you do that? You start by observing and then who are the critical people? Who are the people I can learn from, who have things to offer and how can I help them when the time comes and going to the next one there in connection with this. Never waste a good crisis. Those are the moments to shine. If you help someone, another senior leader that's not even in your organization or your immediate team, to cover up something that just happened or to help solve a problem they had, you know, you'll find that they'll just say a few things about you in another setting that will pay you off in many different ways. So be a helper, be open and never waste those moments. Even if you may be stuck in another call which you deem is important, step out of that call, go help that person solve it, and then go back to the call, which will take another process, probably 45 minutes of your time. So I think it's important to build your own village and it needs to be done naturally. But make sure you have people outside your immediate organization that know you, that know your work. And the last thing I get asked a lot, work, life, balance. And there's no such thing as balance. I find you just find your own equilibrium somehow along the way. I mean, some days feel like it's all about work, some days feel all about family. And a lot of days it feels like it's chaos, but you just hang in there and allow that it will not feel equal or balanced throughout and you just somehow make it work and that's okay. That's how everyone has it.

Mine, I'm just gonna keep them shorter and sweeter, actually, so you can see those and I can share them with you. Networking with purpose. And that's the one I'm going to focus on actually the other bit successfully learn from the others. You've seen three incredible treasures here. You've got some great knowledge from them. Listen to the podcast, go to panels, go to conferences, listen to your peers and you'll get the knowledge. Now, the reason I'm going to cut it short is because I also want to mention about this, so Career Corner challenge now, which I put to you guys. So just last week we did a trip Treasury Career Corner live in London. And before it we actually ran some round tables and the feedback was, Mike, we love the live session and we love the networking afterwards, but actually the round tables where we got to spend one to one time with as it was three groups of eight treasurers in a room going, talking about technology, talking about this said incredible networking, incredible to meet people. And they were also part of this where and what I say to you is when you go down for a drink now it's lovely. Now, some of you might think, hey, I've got to get going. Da, da, da. You've made this effort to come here, make the effort to be there, even if it's for 10 or 15 minutes. I did this challenge in Texas. This guy said, I'm quite introverted, Mike, and I'm not quite sure. I said, look, I want you to go make five connections. Now, that is not five people you're just connecting to on LinkedIn. You need to go and talk to five people. Now, they all need to be Chatham and need to be the guys at Baker, Mackenzie and our sponsors. But at least one of those guys. So do go and speak to those guys. And there are the other sponsors where tis. They got tis. Thank you very much. You've got to speak to them, at least one of the sponsors. They can be one of your connections. But then at least four other treasury professionals when you go there, who are they? What's the name, who they work for? But then one thing about their company that they've got to tell you. So it can't just be, I work for these guys. So we just said about, you know, be interested. So without further ado, the drinks are getting warm. Give this incredible panel a big round of applause.

Thank you.

Thank you. I hope you enjoyed today's podcast just as much as I did recording it. But before you go, a couple of quick reminders. It's salary survey season, so head to treasurysalary.com take take part in this year's salary survey. 1600 treasury professionals do it globally. If you haven't done it before two minutes start to finish. If you have, thank you very much. Only takes you 30 seconds to update your salary, then you're part of this year's survey. We run it all year round, but we actually take snapshots in January and July. So next one is coming up January 2026, end of then. And to help you even more, we've got some partners that can help you. So we partnered with the AFP in the U.S. if you're studying for your CTP or FPA, we make it cheaper for you. Yeah. $150 off your study, $150 off your preparation platforms, and every podcast episode you listen to also gets you CTP credits. If you've already done your CTP course. Amazing. I know. You're welcome. Thanks. We've also partnered with a couple of others. So if you're wondering about how to map out your org structure or work out where all your money sits across your businesses go to Fusible these guys help you visualize it Plug and play it's amazing Then if you're struggling maybe with signatory lists talked to a treasurer the other day and she said actually all these bank mandates I've got to update them all I said hang on is my partner's signatize real headache for lots of teams but actually she's already using them she said it's just amazing but then also you need some training who'd you go to? Gazing Performance Systems, Ian Cochran and the team there. Fantastic. So if you're thinking actually 2026 you need to develop yourselves get some more leadership training Gazing Performance Systems and Ian and the team again go to Our partners page TreasuryRecruitment.com partners check it out and everything else. I'm looking forward to seeing you in 2026 and lots of our events so you'll see more links and looking forward to seeing you soon. Thanks very much for listening and see you thanks very much for listening and see you very soon.