https://www.listennotes.com/e/07c0b52c36fb4c618c5521583f4e0905

Welcome to this week's Treasury Career Corner podcast. And you know what? I always say that treasury professionals need to be translators between finance, operations, the board, banks, and increasingly tech. Well, this week's guest, Evan Bertrand, has really lived that. He started his career as a professional musician playing with the Jacksonville Symphony. Yes, really. And now he's gone through to be the director of investor relations at Forward Air, the North American logistics company, holding senior treasurer roles at companies like ExxonMobil and Six Flags. What I loved about this episode is how Evan breaks down his shift from music to finance and the treasury transformations he's led. Have a quick listen.

What's the hardest decision you've ever had to make? And I told them I was like, leaving music. And I remember she, she laughed because it was like in her head, she's thinking, oh, you're a musician, you don't make much money. You're going to get an MBA and make so much more money. It's going to be so much easier for you. That's how I think she was thinking of it when she laughed and I told her, I was like, that was who I was. That was my entire life. And I'm leaving that to do something completely different that I have no experience in. And it's frightening. But it's like a theme that comes up is that I feel like the best opportunities happen when you do make that leap.

So if you've ever wondered what it really takes to scale from FPA into global treasury and now ir, Evan's story is one of the best I've heard. So let's get on with the episode.

In this week's show, I'm joined by Evan Bertrand, the director of investor relations at an international logistics and trucking company, Forward Air Corporation. For over 40 years, Forward has been grown to leading ground transportation provider and related shipping services at North American Air Freight and expedited LTL market. Yeah, I'm going to get Evan explained about it. There's so much in here. It's basically the wholesale transportation community. You got logistics, you got freight forwarders, air cargo, every everything. So I'll get Evan to explain who for what are he can do a.

Bit more of a PR pitch for those guys.

But first of all, we're going to go back to the beginning how Evan started in finance and then got into Treasury.

It's your show.

Over to you, sir.

I appreciate it, Mike, and I just want to make a point that really appreciate what you're doing with this podcast. Really enjoyed listening to it. It's interesting Kind of hearing everyone's story and what, what kind of surprises me is that everyone's journey is very different and what people do is very different. And you would think like treasury, it's, we could say treasury is this, it's managing cash, it's managing the capital structure. But when you really get down into the day to day, everyone's experience is very different. Which maybe that sounds pretty simple, but I think it a lot depends on the company that you're with, the industry that you're in, as well as just what the, what's needed at the time, the macro environment and everything. So I've really enjoyed it, thank you very much.

And yeah, that's why we do it. I've said to people in the past that if you were in tax, you've got the rule books, you have to follow the rules and everything else. If you're in treasury, you take the rule books, you read them and then you throw them out the window and.

Do your own thing.

And it's about, I meet treasurers at conferences and you have 10 different treasures that all do different jobs. They've all got the same title, but they all do it different ways. Cash rich, debt laden again. That's why there's so much variety in talking to people like yourself, because you've got a very interesting sort of career history and then with your current role, how that's evolved. So take us back to the beginning. So you started in finance with Exxon. Before that, as we were just talking, you were doing undergrad and whatever. You're a musician, as we can see on the video, if anyone's watching today. So how did this all come about? So you went from school and then in as a musician. Talk us through. Interesting.

Yeah, I guess if you want to go to the very beginning, that would be. I started my career in music, actually studied orchestral music at Rice University, was playing percussion, got a job with the Jacksonville Symphony when I was out of school and did that for a couple years. Like, that was the path. I was going to do that for the rest of my life. And the question I always get is, so how do you go from music to finance? And like everything else, it wasn't part of some master plan, it just happened. So I guess what I would say is, while I was doing music, I got really interested in just investing and was fascinated by just the markets and I wanted to read up on it, so I immersed myself in that world. I read a lot of books and not the goofy like, here's the secrets to investing, but More like actually trying to understand the economics, the markets, mechanics on everything else. Yeah, exactly. Like even just answering simple questions like what is a bond, what is the stock market, what's Libor? Just things like that. I got totally immersed in and did that for a while and at the time just as background it was this would have been mid 2000s, so obviously a pretty interesting time in the economy and working for a non profit like in an orchestra. We were feeling a lot of pressure pretty early on, like as early as 2007 and being young in my career and having to deal with that, there was, there was always this part of me that I was like maybe, maybe long term this is not the way to go. Because obviously when you have these business cycles it can be pretty rough in that industry. Around the time the recession hit, I'd already taken the GMAT and thought about what I could do. And it I felt like getting my MBA was probably the best way to go because it really provided the most options. So if you think about there was some other things I could have done, just go directly into the industry or if you get an mba, it's like you have more options available to you. So after playing in Jacksonville, I did a brief stint in Charleston, South Carolina and then ultimately went to business school in Houston. And while I was there, this was 2009, so there was a lot of involuntary career changes there. So an interesting dynamic. Everyone was going through the same thing. And while I was there I was thinking I'd go the investment banking route. But as time went on I realized that corporate finance was probably a better fit because I like the fact that you'd be working for a company versus like consulting or investment banking where you're really more of an advisor. And there was a couple choices because I was still new to this, I didn't know if I wanted to do accounting, FP and a whatever. So corporate finance seemed to be the right route. ExxonMobil recruited on campus. They had a great rotational program. So I thought for someone like me who didn't really have the background, this is the best place to go because they could do the training, they had the rotational program and also at the time they had the possibility for expat work which I was really interested in. So my first job at ExxonMobil was an FP and a role did that for a couple years and then I was rotated into the Treasury Group and my job, this was my first job in Treasury. I was managing their commercial paper program and at the time it was this. I Would say pretty basic commercial paper program. Not very big, but right at the time I started, that's when crude kind of crashed. It went from like $80 to I think below 20 at one point. And so we really leaned pretty heavily on that commercial paper program because ExxonMobil is not really a huge. They don't have a ton of debt relative to their size. And with oil falling the way it did, there was a big reliance on the short term liquidity program. I think we got the commercial paper as high as like 19 or 20 billion. So it was very active. I learned a lot. I loved that job because I was really dealing. It was the first opportunity I really had to deal with people outside of ExxonMobil. Because when you're an FPA, most of what you do is internal.

Yeah.

And this, you're dealing with your investors and you're dealing with them at a time where it's challenging. Like before you could just print the paper, but now there's a lot of concern about oil prices and liquidity and things like that. So it was a challenging time.

But. And you're also quite at that stage. You're quite young, you're quite new to it and fresh faced sort of thing as well. How did you deal with that? Because if there's someone listening today, in their early stage, their career, they go very well.

But.

And then, but you were quite early. It wasn't like you were an experienced.

Person at that stage.

Yeah. And I think that's to Exxon's credit. They're really good about the training. So with the rotational programs, it's a very coordinated process. You're never like jumping into a job and you're on your own. There's a very smooth handover which again that's, that is usually not the case. But everything was very coordinated. So I had a good mentor there and part of it was really just having that mentorship. But also it was something I found uniquely interesting. I really got into it and actually at the time too I was completing my cfa, so there was a little bit of overlap. I think that was part of the reason why they put me in the role is that there was a lot of kind of training that I was doing on my own that really helped out in the role. But yeah, you're right, it's. It can be scary, but I found it pretty fun.

Yeah, good.

But it's. You had some good support people, people there to lean on and everything else, I think.

So that helps.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And then, then you moved on. Talk us through the move. What. How did you transition to Solera and things?

That was just an opportunity that kind of popped up. Like I was, I was doing the job at Exxon and I think part of it was all the jobs that you do there. It's part of rotation and so you'll do it for 18 to 24 months and move out. And I was really liking what I was doing and I didn't want to give it up. I wanted to keep doing and building this skill set. And this opportunity at Solera came up where this was a company that had been public, they had recently gone private lbo. So they had tons of debt and they were in the process of taking what was more of a holding company and going towards more of an operating model and consolidating corporate operations.

And who are they? So who are they for the people that don't.

Oh, Celera. Okay. At the time they were, their main business was really insurance claims processing. So it's just to put it real simple, if you get in a car accident and you call the insurance company, you're likely not calling the insurance company, that, that piece of it gets outsourced and then the end to end process of essentially you making the claim and you getting the check, all of that stuff is handled by a third party. And that's where we come in. They had other parts of the business, but that was really bread and butter at the time. Yeah, yeah. Solera is a very global company. I think we had offices in like 90 countries, I think. And they were operating very much like a holding company. Everything was very independent. And they actually didn't even have a global treasury function. So I was asked to come in and really start to build that out. And that, that was obviously a pretty interesting opportunity because I had spent so much time at this very large sophisticated company. Everything was just, it's a finely tuned machine. Everything was top notch. And I was going to this situation where it's. I didn't have anything. I. We didn't even have processes documented or anything like that.

You were writing them out from a blank sheet of paper, literally. And how do I do this?

Yeah. Even just walking in and trying to level set, okay, how many bank accounts do we have? Who's doing what? And for the most part, day to day cash management like AP and collections and things like that was obviously all handled at the individual business unit level. So just the process of trying to pull all of that stuff in, it's a really brute force process. It's not like there's this command on I. And everyone just does it. Like, you have to go out there and you have to develop the process. You have to take stock of the landscape, get your hands around, like I said, even just finding out how many bank accounts you have. And then the most important thing, and this has been a common theme I've noticed, is that when you have a company that is chugging along, they have good margins, they're making plenty of money, cash is the last thing they think about.

Yeah.

And then all of a sudden you do a transaction, you get $3 billion of debt, and then all of a sudden, cash is the most important thing. So to flip on a dime like that is tough because the first thing is you need to have a cash forecast. And so that really is almost always the first thing that you need to do in these situations is just get your head around, like, what your cash flows look like, what's your liquidity. Because when you're in a situation like that, an lbo, it's like that you could run out of liquidity pretty quickly. So. So that's obviously very important.

And any tips for people? Again, you're, as you said, you go back to the brute force idea. Were you just like, picking up the phone shouting, give me my money. Give me this. Who do you bank with? Or I know you didn't do that. What I'm saying is, how did you do it? If someone's in a similar situation out there listening today, that's pretty close.

I think you have to be like, part of it is being nicer about it, but in reality, yeah, it is. There's a little bit of a turf war mindset sometimes, especially when you have a company that's been really acquisitive, is that because in a lot of cases, you could be a company that's gone through 12 or 13 acquisitions, but you're dealing with people who were there for 20 years and they have no idea what's going on outside of their individual business units. So I found, obviously there is a little bit of that. Like, you just have to figure out who is doing what. But then there is a little bit of a marketing campaign, and this was my first time doing it, so there was a lot of lessons learned. For me, it's not. I did everything perfectly. There was a lot of missteps. But I think when I finally realized that you do have to make your case to people as to why it's so important, and I think one of the ways I was able to do that is just showing them what the Bigger picture looks like showing them that, okay, now we have 3, 4 billion dollars of debt. We have this much liquidity. Our interest rates are this. We produce X million dollars outside of the U.S. but all of our debts, it's in the U.S. that means we have to repatriate this much every year. And guess what? Every dollar that we leave stranded is costing us 10%.

Yeah.

And then we. How did you manage the complexity of all that, all those streams? And that must have been.

Yeah, yeah, it's definitely like an 8020 approach. Obviously some countries you just deprioritize as far as like, where are you going to focus getting the cash? Because every pipeline that you have, you need to build it out. The first question is always going to be, what is the mechanism I'm going to use to pull cash into the country? And so that, that means you need to work really closely with tax. Probably have a good outside advisor that can help with that kind of stuff. With a company that's as global as Solara was, obviously all of that stuff is very much in place because that's a big part of the business.

Yeah.

And then of course, when you do have that many pockets of cash, you're dealing with a consolidated cash forecast. So I built one in the U.S. obviously that's where most of the money was. And also that was probably the more streamlined account structure, so it's a little bit easier. But then you had to look at where am I generating most of the cash. Then you go to the next country in the next country and you need to start building out a cash forecast for everyone. And then just having a routine where whether it's monthly calls or an email or whatever, you just have that routine. You set the expectation of what's needed and then just. It just needs to be like a reflex, essentially.

And then you made the move to Six Flags and that's where I know there was originally. I'd seen your details and everything else. Can you talk us through what happened next? You've been at Celera for about four and a half years and then Six Flags came along.

Yeah. So the common theme in my career has been I'm always going somewhere where cash is becoming a major issue. So when I went to do the commercial paper at Exxon, crude fell 20 bucks. When I went to Solera, they had recently LBO and now Six Flags. I joined right in the middle of COVID So again, a business that was just printing money before, a seasonal consumer focused business.

And you joined it in the middle of lockdown. I'm not saying anything about your decisions because we didn't know about COVID but what was that like to you? How did you manage?

Well, I saw it as a good opportunity because the. I think the quarter that I joined, the revenue had fallen by over 90%. His stock had taken a huge hit. And personally, I was looking at it as this is going to come back. Obviously this is temporary. And that ended up being pretty much the case. Like I joined in 2020, but then 2021 was a great year.

Record year.

Yeah.

But that being said, it was. We were still dealing with the issue of cash and you were joining a company where margins were really high. They were producing a lot of cash flow. So there wasn't really that rigor around. Like I said that the cash forecasting and all the processes. Now, Six Flags is a little bit simpler than slayer was because 90% of your business is in the United States. So I wasn't dealing a lot with the international piece as much.

Yeah.

But what I would say made it a lot more difficult was the. I guess the business model, you're not dealing in a B2B where you have maybe 20 or 30,000 customers. You have millions of customers.

Yeah.

And the throughputs are just ridiculous.

Exactly. So you have millions of customers and you're trying to predict what their spending patterns are going to be coming out of this massive pandemic and also a seasonal business.

So where do you. Then you talked about the 80, 20. Where did you spend 80? What were the things you did? The 80%?

I mean, at solar, it was really about just identifying where most your cash is being generated. So understanding the business and the seasonality, which at solar you didn't really have that problem as much with Six Flags. Like I said, a little bit simpler. So really it was step number one, you got to build the cash forecast, which that was very challenging based on the points that we were just saying. So it's like you have to predict what the ticket sales are going to be, what pass sales are going to be. You need to understand what the working capital implications are of a selling a ticket versus the season pass or season pass of the payment plan or membership, which we had at the time. The working capital piece was a huge challenge. Plus at the time we had 27 parks. So you have to do that at an individual park level for it to make any sense. You can't really do it at a high level. You know that that was definitely the challenge there. But like I said, 2021 was a very good year. We, when I came in, we were in the middle of a. Because of COVID obviously there was some downsizing and they had undergone an ERP integration. So what I had done is when I got in, I was in the middle of that process and I had mentioned, I was like, have you thought about integrating the banks directly with your erp because you can take advantage of things like strai through processing and automating some of your reports. And that hadn't been considered when I got there. So I came in really at a good time because I was able to work on that integration while they were implementing the ERP versus having to do it after the fact. And that was really fundamental in facilitating the reduction for us and trying to consolidate things from 27 different parks into corporate, which they were also doing at the time.

And you had to do it in a short time period as well.

Yeah, it was probably from end to end, it was over a year. But obviously that was, it was a big undertaking because like I said, similar to how Solera was, the day to day cash management was happening at essentially 27 different parks. And after Covid, that was being consolidated into corporate.

And just with that. And it brings up an interesting point that I. People say to me, do treasurers need to be IT guys? Do they need to be data geeks? And I'm like, no, but they need to understand it and they. You need to translate it. All those. You're the go between, if you like the translator to here's the erp, here's what the end result. And that's where you sit as a treasurer with yourself obviously technically strong and everything else. But is that where you see your role sort of thing?

You definitely need a good banking partner because ultimately they're going to be the most in the know as to what the new technology is. But it helped starting my career at Exxon because I was seeing the final product.

Yeah.

And this is a company that had the best tms. They had. Everything was fully integrated. They had totally fully documented processes. So I saw what the end state was. And so when you go into maybe a smaller company that doesn't have all that stuff implemented already, you can see all right, we can get a lot of value if we do this.

What good looks like. Yes, this is the perfect working model. Let's get as close to that as we can.

Yeah, exactly.

Yeah, but how do you do that when you're blocking and tackling and you've got a smaller ticket? Massive global, multinational, lots of star. Yeah, just lean on to that personally you're not in that situation. So how do you do that in.

This case, like with the ERP implementation, it helps that the process was already underway.

Yeah.

Because obviously if you do it after the fact, you have to reinitiate this process. Yeah, exactly. The other thing is, like I said, having a good banking partner, it's one thing having them keep you in the loop as to the newest technologies, but you need to lean on them as well for these implementations. I've done multiple RFPs before for different projects and that's usually one of the first questions is like, how do you manage your projects? What sort of resources can you provide? What does project management look like for you? And so that's a huge part of any RFP that I would do.

And so then let's bring ourselves a bit more up to date. So you, with Six Flags, but then you, you became. Then the. You took on investor relations as well. How did that come about?

That was. So I was doing a little bit of investor relations at Solar. It was a little bit different because it was a private company, but a lot of the same processes, working with the board, putting together the earnings presentation, I was doing that stuff and that was, I was really enjoying it too. And so when I joined Six Flags, my boss at the time was the head of treasury and investor relationship. And I told him early on I was like, I would love to learn more about investor relations for a public company. And so he brought me in. He was a really good mentor. And so pretty much from day one, I was running the treasury operations, but also doing investor relations and learning a lot about what the public side looks like.

And what does that look like? Again, if someone is listening, what are the top tips there? Do this, don't do that.

On public company investor relations. Yeah, yeah, I'm still figuring that out, I'll be honest. But I would say, number one, obviously maintaining good relationships like staying in touch. And I think this is more of a broad point. Even with treasury, actually, especially with Treasury. I've always tried to foster very close relationships with my banking partners because ultimately they're a great resource, they can be very informative, they're very helpful. And especially if you're in a situation like Covid or something like that, like you need them. So it's good to have those relationships. Same thing on the investor relations side. You don't want this to be like an as needed relationship. You want to. I, I strive to have frequent contacts, staying in touch, being transparent. So I would say for me, that's number one. But it's equally as important in Treasury.

Yeah. And then bring us up to date because, you know, we're moving on the show. So you've then joined Forward Air Corporation, who are they? And bring us up to that.

Yeah, so prior to that I was working on a merger at Six Flags with Cedar Fair. Yeah, so they completed that deal, I think June of last year. And that really took up the past year and a half that I was at Six Flags. That was a major undertaking. It was an 8 billion dollar merger of equals. So I worked on that and I think that was probably the highlight of my career so far. It was so much fun to work on that. Mergers aren't very common acquisitions all the time, but doing a big merger like that, they don't happen every day. So it was a good opportunity and essentially completed my work. And as, as is the case with mergers, you move on. And I wanted to stay on the investor relations track. So there is some overlap between treasury investor relations. And you'll see actually sometimes that'll be a combined role. That's what I had at Six Flags, but I wanted to make sure that I stayed on that track. So I found this opportunity at Ford Air and I took advantage of it.

And who reported?

Yeah, so. So Ford Air, I think you did a good job explaining at the beginning. The logistics industry is extremely complex and I'm speaking as someone who's changed industries with each job. Like I saw it in oil and gas, then went on to automotive, then theme parks, and now I'm in logistics. So there's several different pieces of the, what I'd call the logistics ecosystem. You have trucking, you have freight forwarding, brokerage, third party logistics, all those different elements. And you have some companies that will just be a pure play within there, and then you have some companies that do it all. And Ford Air, prior to my joining, was a pure, I would call LTL or less than truckload business. And you can think of that. Just when you see the trucks driving down the road, it's that. But there's differences between how you manage that process, whether you do it on a schedule on demand, or whether you wait until you have a full truckload to do it. So like I said, even within trucking you have all these different elements. Yeah, and prior to my joining, they did a merger with a business that's more logistics focused. They're the sort of the people coordinating between the suppliers and the truckers and managing that process. So now what you have is rather than just like a pure ltl Business, you have a more integrated business and the last year has really been spent on integration, just bringing these two companies together. And the next piece of that is really taking advantage of this broader product set. So now that you're more integrated, what can you do as far as cross selling opportunities and things like that?

And you've gone from this role of, as you said, combined IR and Treasury. What has treasury given you, if you like, in this role? And you've got a ctp, you've got all those in your back pocket. So where do you see treasury taking you next? Not treasury, but the roles going next?

I think, I don't think I'm necessarily done with Treasury. I love treasury and a dual role would be great and I think that's becoming more and more common where you combine treasury investor relations and I think really where the overlap is that capital markets piece. And that's really the piece that I've always enjoyed the most. I've done the nuts and bolts Treasury, I've done that. But the raising capital, doing acquisitions, things like that, that, that's the piece that has always fascinated me the most. I don't see myself really as leaving Treasury. I'll always, that'll always be a part of what I do. But I think ultimately that's where I'd like to go, is just doing both. I've really enjoyed that.

And you touched on there about technology, automation, ERP and everything else. What other trends do you see shaping treasury finance? All of the above integrated. How do you see that developing at the moment?

As far as trends? I think the biggest thing right now is probably fraud. That's a growing piece. I think we in treasury, we've probably always dealt with fraud, but it's just amazing at how much more sophisticated it's getting. The banks are going to need to stay on top of it, we're going to need to stay on top of it as treasurers. And honestly, I think that's just, I think that's probably for a lot of people, a growing business. I think there's. You're going to see a lot of businesses pop up that really just specialize in that piece of it, because it's not, it's not going away. And what part of that. Like when I was at Six Flags, prior to Covid, it was a heavily cash business and now Six Flags is completely cashless.

Yeah.

And it's interesting because when you move away from cash, there's this huge benefit because cash has this tendency to just walk away. And so when you go from cash to credit cards, you have less of that slippage, but then now you have the credit card piece. And so there's a lot of fraud associated with that. And then E commerce is becoming bigger. There's a lot of fraud associated with that. It's great that we've gotten rid of this issue of cash, but now we're just acceptable to fraud.

Yeah, that's interesting. Covid, for all it did, it accelerated working from home and different transitions in that as well. I was also with a US client of mine the other day and we talked about QR codes, contactless and. Yeah, and he said, he was in the uk. He said, oh my goodness, you order from your table and you carry on with this. And just prior to Covid, QR was dying out. No one was scanning a code. That was it. And I was thinking, oh, do I need one for the business? I'll not bother. And stuff. Now it's. That's what we do. If you want a menu in some of the restaurants still now, that's what they've kept to. So it has done other things. Any other trends or any other things you think coming along the line.

It's just funny you mentioned that because mobile ordering was. That was a huge effort for us trying to grow that business because obviously there's benefits in just like increasing sales, but just operationally there's a lot of benefits. And we had done the same thing. We had added the QR codes to the table so that they could scan it. It goes directly into the mobile ordering platform. They could order food, have it delivered out to them. So that is obviously the direction we're going. And I think if you're a business out there trying to do that, there's a lot that goes into that. You have to have the technology in place to allow that. Obviously you need a strong IT department for stuff like that. Like these rollouts are pretty significant. And again, that trend is not going away.

So if we just look at your career before we. We're not quite there at the end. If you look back, any defining moments that stand out to yourself, that you look back and go, you just talked about some of the merger, which is obviously a career highlight. That's one key thing you touched on. Anything else or other advice to the listenership?

I guess I remember one time I was talking to someone and they asked me, like, what's the hardest thing? What's the hardest decision you've ever had to make? And I told them I was like leaving music. And I remember she. She laughed because it Was like in her head, she's thinking, oh, you're a musician, you don't make much money. You're going to get an MBA and make so much more money. It's going to be so much easier for you. That's how I think she was thinking of it when she laughed and I told her, I was like, that was who I was. That was my entire life. And I'm leaving that to do something completely different that I have no experience in. And it's frightening, but it's like a theme that comes up is that I feel like the best opportunities happen when you do make that leap. I feel like the best opportunities I've had have been where I've taken a job. Where, like you said about going to a theme park business during COVID it's. That's usually where the best opportunities are.

Yeah.

Okay. We're going to put your LinkedIn details in the show notes. You've heard the show, that's what we do. And then we do the takeaways. So what are these for? Maybe as you said, the more junior staff, mid level senior. Any key tips for people out there?

I think that was the main one. Don't be afraid to take chances like that. Leaving music was very scary. Even Exxon, I remember when I left there, that's a company where people stay there for 20 or 30 years their whole life. And when I left, people thought I was crazy, but I just, I saw this great opportunity. It's. I think it's scary, but I can't really pass this up. Yeah, that. That's a big one. Another one is maintaining those relationships has been extremely helpful, especially in Treasury. Don't take for granted some of these outside partners you have, especially with the banking partners, and even internally as well, especially if you change jobs. Like, you're going into a situation where you know, all these other people, they've been there longer than you, they know a lot and you can learn a lot from them. So I think fostering those relationships can be extremely helpful, as you say, and.

I hear it a lot, that it's all about the relationships and it's not about what you know, it's who you know a lot of the time.

Yeah, exactly.

Evan, thank you very much, sir. Great episode as always. And by the time this comes out, people will be able to get CTP credits from this as well. So thank you very much for being one of the new shows that gets it as well. Thank you, sir.

That's great. Thanks. Appreciate it.

Cheers.

I hope you enjoyed listening to this week's podcast just as much as I did recording it with another amazing guest. Now, don't forget to subscribe on your usual platform, whether that's Spotify, Apple Podcasts wherever you listen, so you never miss a future episode whilst you're there. If you're listening on Apple Podcast, maybe give us a five star review. Why? Because it helps other Treasure professionals find the show, join the conversation and get even more value now. Also, we're helping you guys in Treasury. If you are thinking about studying for your CTP or FPA qualification, then listen up. We partnered with the AFP to offer a discount on study, both for the studying and for the preparation platform as well. So you can get through us. $150 discount. Yes, $150 for each. My goodness. Yeah, we're here to help. So it's a great step for your career and always good to save where you can. So all you need to do is go to treasurerecruitment.com forward/partners. You've got the codes there, then you head across to their website and you get the discount. You also as well, if it wasn't enough, we're going to be heading to AFP Boston later on in the fall, as the Americans call it in October. And we also offer 150 discount off your registration. So wherever you might be, it's a great conference, whether you're in UK and Europe, you should go.

I'm going.

It's going to be amazing. So, incredible few days, Great insights, proper networking, great conversations with lots and lots of treasurers. Last time in Nashville, 8,000 plus one of their biggest ones ever. It was amazing. So just go to the Show Notes and you'll find the link or treasure recruitment.com partners and get it all from there. Remember, if you're looking for a role, visit treasure recruitment.com if you need some advice, reach out mike@treasuryrecruitment.com or come and meet us in person. We've got our sessions coming up, we've got sessions throughout this year in Texas, then we've got London, we've got Dublin, then we're back to the US for Chicago, then New York, crumbs everywhere, Euro Finance, the lot. And then AFP and then back to London and then we'll do Netherlands as well. So it'll be great to see you. We're going to be everywhere, so looking forward to it. Thanks very much and until next week, enjoy the show.