https://www.listennotes.com/e/53fedad7099847bb9f72ad6eb499cbbd

Foreign to this week's Treasury Career Corner podcast where I interview treasury professionals about their treasury careers. Each and every week I talk to treasurers about how they build their careers, where they are now, where they see both themselves and the treasury profession going to next. Let's get on with the show. Good evening, New York. Oh, you didn't let me down. Thank you very much. You all made the effort to come here. Good thing is there's no WI fi signal, so it means you can't go on your phones now. So be present, join with these, me and three amazing treasurers. Then afterwards you get to network with a lot of your peers. You also by coming here, get CTP credits. Thank you very much.

I know.

I want to firstly thank as well Kramer Levin. Where is Ken? Was our host. That's Ken. You have to be really nice to Ken. He's providing value. Thank you. And we're getting free drinks even from the guys at Treasury Spring and Kyriba icd Redbridge tis. Can you put your hands up, please? Right, those are the guys you really need to be nice to because they're providing the drinks, they're paying for the venue and everything else. So who am I? Mike Richards. I run the treasury recruitment company. As you see, I've got a face radio. That's why I do a podcast. We have a lovely team. Got Joe here today, Katie back in London and myself over here. I've been a treasure recruiter now for the past 25 years. After doing it well, about six years ago, I started a podcast. I thought we'd do 10 episodes. We've now done 375. Every single week I speak to a treasurer about their treasury careers. I was just explaining earlier to Frank. Soon we're just going through the approval process with afp. You'll be able to listen to the podcast whilst you're walking your dog, going to the gym and earn CTP credits as well. I know another reason to listen to my lovely voice every week. But more than that, you actually get to listen to amazing treasures like these three. So this is what we're going to do this evening. We are going to go through each of our panelists with. They're going to give a quick run through of their backgrounds. We'll talk about the new parts of, well, life, if you like, and this new ways of working, a bit of hybrid and everything else what they do. Then you're going to get a chance to ask some questions. Ask some questions. When was the last chance last time rather you got the the opportunity to have the treasure of Victoria's Secret treasurer, Bristol Myers Squibb and Frank. And he's going to explain all about his company as well. So, Summer, over to you.

All right, we're jumping into this. Hi, everyone. I'm Summer Simmons. And my career has been shaped by one simple mindset. I always want to be a volunteer, never a hostage to my career. So I needing to live through that, that means I had to say yes, excuse me. To the opportunities that took me outside of my comfort zone. It means that I just had to step outside of my box. I'm an accountant by trade. After about a decade of booking journal entries and planning my whole life, around month end, including my wedding, never being able to take a day off on my birthday, I had an unplanned hallway conversation that just changed everything. So I went from managing the rear view, that's a little historical context, y' all got it. To focusing on the future. And that shift literally happened overnight when I joined treasury as a practitioner. Fast forward about 12 years later. Today I lead a Treasury team at Victoria's Secret and Company where I'm responsible for managing cash, capital structure, corporate finance, risk, M and A and everything in between, given the day. And this audience can appreciate that better than anyone. And if there's one thing that being in treasury has taught taught me, it's that a successful career doesn't necessarily follow a straight path. After finding myself in this field, I made a promise. I'm no longer putting limits on what my career should look like and I'm staying open to what it could look like. Sorry because the big opportunities don't always follow a roadmap. So here we are today. Super excited to be here, back home in New York for about 48 hours. But more importantly, humbled to share a panel with these esteemed individuals and the Mr. Treasury himself.

Sandra.

So thank you. And I will not be as eloquent as some. My journey has been more so about risk taking, taking and opportunities. I too was an accounting major and I'm a cpa. I've done one journal entry my entire career and I'm quite proud of that. I started my career in AT&T AT in a rotational development program. And as my entire career has basically led to every company I join kind of disappears. So a month until being at at&t they announced tribestiture. I chose to go to Lucent. So the unknown. I had a wonderful seven years there. I had a couple of international assignments. So I took the risk, use my language skills, spent a year in Mexico spent a couple of years in internal audit supporting Latin America and then I spent almost a couple of years in Brazil. I decided that I wanted to come back to to New Jersey and be close to family. I did not have a job so I came back with a hope and a dream of finding a job. And serendipity happened and an FX manager opening happened to come about. And that's how my career started in treasury and I been in treasury ever since. So I've been in treasury longer than most peaks. Some people in this room have probably been working or alive. I left Lucent because went through some challenges and some troubles and headcount cut and et cetera, et cetera. I joined the company called Cement Corporation and their international Treasury Department which was a broader role. I was there for around two and a half years, always had a keen interest in pharma. I wanted to work in an industry that made a difference in people's lives and who hasn't had someone impacted by cancer in their family. So that just meant something to me. I had an opportunity to go either to JJ as an international treasury manager or to a no name company, Celgene at the time it was a $400 million thalidomide company which could have failed within a few months of my being there. And of course I chose to go to the no name company and, and take the gamble. And it was the best thing I've ever done in my life. It changed the trajectory of my family and my career, frankly. I was there for 15 years, had my kids while I was there, got to grow and build a Treasury organization, touched every single thing in treasury, learned what I liked and didn't like and then we were acquired in 2019. So third company down. So I have been at Bristol Myers Squibb since 2019. I did lobby for my role at Bristol Myers. I had a choice. Do I want to say or do I just want to go and look for a different opportunity? I did lobby for a promotion. So when I went to Bristol Myers I did go as a vp, Assistant Treasurer and then I did lobby that I wanted to be treasurer one day. So my lesson to everyone here is advocate for yourself because if you don't speak up, people may not even know that you're interested in the role. So I did approach our CFO one day. I said I would like to be treasurer one day whenever the time is right. I got the, I got the call in 2021 and I couldn't believe it. Literally. I thought I was getting in trouble. I Thought I was getting fired actually because there was an HR person in the room. I said, oh goodness, what did I do? So I got the job. He told me, you have to fire X person and you have to build a Treasury of the future. So we have been on an amazing ride over the last few years building and changing the BMS treasury function. And I have an amazing team that I've been able to build and support. Support me.

And I want to explore a little bit more about your teams as we go through. We'll go across to Frank, over to you. Sure.

So I probably have the opposite way kind of. I got into treasury, so I started off in banking. I worked in two different banks and then I made my way into an accounting firm doing structured finance. So working banking at an accounting firm, I was at PwC for a couple years. Made my way over to a client which was a health insurance company, which probably the last place I thought I was going to work on my career trajectory, which I'll probably cover a little bit in comments later. And now I'm at Horizon Blue Cross Blue Shield in New Jersey. So one thing that perhaps you can take away from today is most people know the name Blue Cross Blue Shield but don't understand how it works. So I'm going to kind of explain it to you real quickly. Each Blue Cross Blue Shield company is an independent company, or most of them are. They share a franchise license and they have governance rights. So for example, my company has the rights for the logo in the New Jersey. We share a network. So once you're covered by one company, depending on your plan, you're generally covered by any Blue Cross Blue Shield company. So if you think of it like a franchise, that's effectively how it operates. Probably the most well known is Elevance. That's the publicly traded Blue Cross Blue Shield company. They cover a couple different states, including New York, but we're focused on New Jersey. In terms of my role, I kind of started in treasury at my last company, which is Emblem Health, an insurance company based here in New York City, and then went over Horizon. And it's been a good opportunity for me. I've certainly learned a lot. And I think the interesting thing about our different industries, although we're both in health care, the kind of different sides of health care, treasury has a kind of common bond no matter what industry that you're in. And there's always nuances. So I think one of the things that I think about in my career, I've kind of become the expert on health Insurance. But it's interesting to interact with other treasurers because I like learning about different industries. And so I'd always say take advantage of opportunities to hear from others and learn those different industries. You'll get a lot out of it that you can sometimes take back to your job.

And also you then lecture as well, don't you? At Hofstra? Yeah.

Yes, I've been. I'm actually a union member, so I'm in the professor's union nationally. I've been doing it for about 10 years at Hofstra. Definitely a passion of mine. I love teaching, I love education, I love being part of the university. And by honestly, that'll be one of my other comments. I think it keeps me fresh. There's a lot to research, a lot to study. And so the fact that I can cite like CAPM formulas and things off the top of my head. Yeah, I'm proud of that.

Well, we'll start actually with yourself then. Maybe we've got a mixed audience here. So some early practitioners maybe studying CTP as well, and some that have been through the program study wise. Obviously you. You're seeing that, as you say, every day for the past 10 years. Why do you think that's so important?

Even though I think the pace is just going to continue. So the idea, I think a lot of times people thought years ago, oh, I go to school, maybe I'll get my mba and then I'm done for the rest of my life. And I'm kind of. And that wasn't the case then, and it's even less the case now. Skills are. You have to be relevant all the time. Myself, I challenge myself to study up on things. And the best thing with way things are structured today is you can go online and you can read, do a podcast. I mean, podcasts are great because you can get exercise and learn a lot at the same time. I mean, that. That's really important. And so the ability to learn continuously is going to create those opportunities. Because Sandra just spoke about earlier about advocating for yourself. No one's going to say, oh, I think you know this. You have to prove that you know it.

And.

And so the best way to do that is to take that on yourself, whether it's a certificate, a course, whatever, to say, hey, I'm motivated, I'm interested, throwing on it on your resume. I think that's one great way to advocate for yourself.

Sandra, with you and your team, obviously you've got again, a range of them, junior guys, mid levels. What do you do to support the education and development of those guys.

Yeah. So we are very keen on developing our team and cross training. We do a lot of benchmarking as well. So we're very involved in the NOI Group organization where we're benchmarking with all of the other mega caps and we're always we're going to learn something because it doesn't matter what industry you work in. Treasury is Treasury. Risk management is risk management. We take advantage of all of the bank the banks have to offer. The banks certainly have a lot of great ideas and sometimes those ideas require a lot of education for us to actually be able to explain explain them to our senior leadership and to implement. So it is a continuous journey. We have lunch and learns as well so that we're teaching different areas of the department what other areas are doing so that everyone is on par and understands kind of how we're delivering value for the organization.

Similar to Sandra, we take advantage of the bank's willingness to teach quote unquote for free. And I personally try to stay really engaged with with my peers and encourage the team to find their equivalent in retail and outside of retail. As everyone on the panel has shared treasury is treasury or industry looks a little different but the things that we're challenged by, we're all challenged by them think having access to relevant information, understanding that our role is best elevated outside of the company. Like most people in our four walls can't teach us treasury, we're not normally teaching them. And so getting outside of our building whether it's virtually or in person. A few weeks ago we finally took Goldman Sachs up on an offer to come in and have a teach in and it was fantastic. Right? Like the team was like oh my gosh, this is what their building is. I was like don't get ahead of yourself. See what we pay them. So it was just a really fantastic time to be outside of the cubes or your home office and being someplace else in a car quasi classroom environment. So taking advantage of all of the access to resources whether it's podcasts, off the shelf decks that the banks might have or NOI group just looking for bits and pieces that can help tell the story in bite sized cognitive easily to digest ways that has really helped the team. I have a team that's coming from FP and A they have no treasury or they had no treasury experience and so we agreed that they would trade their institutional knowledge and I would teach them treasury and get to be the hero and now they love it and so what's valuable in that is just really figuring out what do they need, how do they digest things and giving them access to it.

Cool. Sandra, if you move your microphone up a little bit. Just that one. Yeah, that's it. Perfect.

Even with the mic, I'd speak to love.

What do you see is key to your success? I'll start with Summer and then come across if you're like looking back at your career and thinking some of the steps you've made or missteps you've made as well. The do's and don'ts again for I do that every week when I talk to people on the podcast and I have pre briefed my audio, my, my panelists. Don't worry, these aren't tricky questions when you look back at that.

So most people, their moms know them best. Right. And if your mom were to describe you growing up, two, three words she'd have them tip of. My mom would describe her tongue as chatty and nosy. She would probably still describe me that way today. And so after years of being chatty and nosy and the benefit of perspective, I realized that that translates into curious and able to establish connections really easily. And so that has been everything for me in the course of my career. So whether it was being an accountant and just kind of stepping through what that looked like to networking and engaging and having this unplanned hallway conversation that then allowed me to get into Treasury, I find that I'm still using that. Talking to bankers, talking to our key stakeholders, helping people who really just want to understand the difference between. Most people think that treasury is some weird combination of apartment and, I don't know, accounting. They want to know, do we have enough money for me to get paid next week? That's all they care about. And I'm okay with that because that means they know that I exist. And so that's a large part of not just me, but our team exists. And that's a large part of the communication and the connection. More importantly, that means that treasury is always thought of in the context of we have this great idea, but do we have the money to do it? And I will take that all day before they spend the money and then we find out that they spent it and we've got to go looking for it. So from a success perspective, I would say it's just channeling your inner kindergartner and figuring out how that shows up in your day job. And I've been able to do that. Missteps. I think the biggest misstep that I've made during the course of my career is waiting to be perfect or waiting for somebody to tap me on the shoulder or waiting to be able to hit every single bullet on a job description to say, okay, I'm ready and you get one boss too many that has no idea what you do. And you figure out I'm going to start applying for these jobs because apparently anybody could do it. Not anybody could do it. But I got to a place where I stopped waiting for profession and I finally started saying to Sandra's point, raising your hand and saying I'm interested in doing X at some point in life. Raising your hand for the stretch assignment, raising your hand to be the part project lead for treasury on some bigger project. And it's really just giving yourself permission to lead with progress. Not permission, not perfection. Sorry.

Sondra.

So in terms of my success, I think first and foremost it's having a very strong support system and a strong team surrounding myself with really smart individuals and sometimes people that are smarter than me. I don't know everything and I don't have to. I have a great team and I can rely on them. The other things that are on me is my work ethic. I have an incredible work ethic. A little actually work a little too much. My desire for results and our focus and just always delivering value for the organization and really selling that and highlighting for everyone in the company what treasury can deliver for the organization. Because we are not a cash management shop. We actually do a lot of other things within treasury and we do have the ability to deliver value and it is the only financal function that actually delivers P and L in terms of missteps, I don't really focus on mistakes because to me they're all learning opportunities and it's more of a personal learning. It is balanced. So because I've always worked so hard, I missed out on my kids growing up. So my learning was I should have had more balance when my kids were younger and spent more time and gone to the elementary school to go to the class party, to go to the Halloween party. Because when they call you out on it, let me tell you, it doesn't feel good and they remember.

None of them. Thanks.

Yeah, no, I think some really, really great points from both of you. From my perspective, when I think about what I perhaps earlier on my career I didn't think through is I think a lot of people have this view on I want to do this and I don't open myself up to the various pathways and I kind of said my earlier Comments? If you would have asked me if I'd work at a health insurance company, I would have told you no, 20, 20 years ago. And if I sold two health insurance companies, I definitely would have said no. And here I am, right? So sometimes the opportunities that life brings you, you don't expect. And if you're not open to them, you can actually cut off viable career pathways for yourself. So be open to opportunities. I think that's a misstep that I've probably been guilty at at some point in time. And I think a lot of us are because we have our own biases and perceptions about what we think certain jobs or roles or industries are. I think the different, direct differentiator that you can think about when you go out in the market is one of the things I've learned in my career is some people say, oh, I want the job and then I'll do. And I think, at least in corporate America, that's a really hard proposition to make because companies, managers, particularly at the C suite, they're not looking to reward you and then take a chance on you, right? You have to show your value to them in order to, to get there. And so you think, oh, well, I put in my time, I should get it, whatever the case is. Maybe the case, but that's not the world works, in my opinion. And that's not been my experience. And so I think the best advice I could give to everybody that I've kind of benefited from my career is do the role, demonstrate you can do it even though you don't have the title, and sign up for more responsibility even without any of it. And at the end of the day, it's going to give you one or two things, right? Either you work for a great company that's going to notice you and is not going to want to lose you. And now your leverage just went up because they're worried that you're very marketable and so they better promote you or pay you, otherwise you're going to go someplace else, right? Or if it doesn't happen at your company, you've just improved your resume dramatically and you've created better experiences that you can give to another employer. So don't say you have to pay me to do that job, responsibility, just sign up. And that's been kind of the story of my career. I have people that know me every time there's some way and they can't figure out where to put it. Give it to Frank. Sure, I'll do it. I don't complain. Get it Done. So be a doer, don't complain, be disciplined. I think that's benefit.

And if you're coaching and managing a team to do that, how do you, how do you get that across them? Because again, we've got some people here in the audience, they might be freshly. They were a Treasury analyst, senior. Now they're becoming a Treasury manager. They're starting a coach, a mentor. What advice would you go there? And we come back through the panel.

I would, I say all the time, the hardest part of my job is badging people. All the technical stuff is really easy. And as you grow, go forward in your career and get promoted, you have to manage more people and more different personalities. And so companies pay you to manage people. They don't pay you for just your intellect. Otherwise they could just hire a Ph.D. to, to be the treasurer. Right. And so putting together teams that work is difficult. I would say the most important thing to figure out is whoever's on your team, sit down and ask them what is important to you. Right. Because when you ask somebody what's important to them, you're going to get a different one. Some people, it may be work, life, balance. Another person, it might be career progression. Other person might be experiences or exposure they want to get. So figure out what makes each person on your team tick. And then being the manager, figure out, how can I put this team together so that as a whole they function? So if you can figure out what's somebody's strengths, the other person's weakness, how can I blend that to make a more effective team that will really help you out? If you just sit there and say, I want everybody to do the same thing, that's great in theory, but really good teams don't execute that way. People are trying to work with each other and partner to cover up where the weak spots are, and it makes the team better. I've been spending a lot of time the last year or two working on my leadership and the companies involved invested a lot in that. And I think I've learned a lot in the process. And I, quite honestly, I think the teams that I've had have been excelled because of that.

Yeah. Before I get to Sandra, I was just going to chip in as well. I. I did a session with a number of U. S. Treasurers just at the end of COVID and we were talking about our treasury salary survey and I was talking to them, they said, oh, it's all about the money. I said, do you know what it's not? They're like, well, no. Yeah, this is your salary survey. This is it. I said, and I went back through and they said, well, what advice do we need to do to keep our team? And literally I just kept. Luckily I kept the slide here and it was like I said, right, go and have this conversation with them. Say, what's your work life balance like? Am I being a decent boss to you? Are we giving you enough variety? How are you fitting in with the team? And then ask about the salary? And I said, well, why? And I said, well, 85% of your jobs will go, your problems will go away. Like really? I said, yeah, these are the top reasons 80% of staff leave because of these. So Sandra, for yourself, how do you manage it?

So to me, culture is everything. If you have a good culture on your team, you'll get the results that you need or even exceed. So when I was building out my team, it was all about fit. It wasn't necessarily about having the treasury skills because we can teach the those, but it was about the mindset and the fit and the being open minded to change because change was coming and it was going to come fast, which meant trust and psychological safety was a top priority for me. You have to get the team to really trust you and to buy in to what you're trying to do. And change because people change is hard. There's a lot of fear, fear that comes with change because people automatically assume with change that means I may lose my job. And that's not really what change is about. Change is about improving and enhancing your work life balance. So we focus a lot on the work life balance and having fun at work.

Yeah, we work for a place that songs. So have fun at work. You send a typo. Instead of putting things, you put thought is you don't get a call from HR because you could just be talking about sales and bombs. In seriousness, both my co panelists nailed it. Right. Like, I like to believe that hiring for mindset over skill set is way more important. You can teach someone. Treasury, most of us have all learned treasury, hands on the job and understanding what the work entails and how you need to think about it. We can step through that. We can do all the things. But is the person willing, right? Is the person willing to think outside the box? Do they ask good questions? Do they follow up with solutions? All of that, I don't believe you can always teach. So there's that piece, the other piece of it. Frank nailed it. It's about identifying what motivates your people. Some people want visibility, they want to be in every meeting with the cfo. They want to be friends, front row. They want to be presenting. And then there's the person who's a steady eddy. They want to have mastery in their role and they just want to know that they're making a valuable contribution. And then there's a person that's trying to figure out, is this my thing? Like, they all seem to love it. I don't know if I'm into it. And working with them to figure out maybe they're your projects person. Maybe they don't love the mundane. Maybe they want to be at the front of what problems the rest of the organization has and how treasury can can navigate that. So being really thoughtful about your TVs and your touch bases with them and understanding not only what's on their to do list, but what's on their to do list for their career and for their lives. Like our touch bases. There's a thing that I have the team fill out. It's called the weekly status report. And it's just what's on your plate. What's the big thing that we need to keep in mind and then what's coming down the forefront. We might spend five minutes on that. It's saved. I can read it whenever I want to, but I really want to know what's going on. One team member, he's expecting his first child in less than six weeks. Another team member is going through a really challenging time with a family member. And that's what we talk about. How are you navigating? How are you feeling? That helps me figure out where they are in their workload and how they're showing up. And it's my job to be able to identify something must be going on with Sandra because. Because she's not. She doesn't seem like herself. It's my job to understand that and to figure out how to support them. The other thing to keep in mind is feedback. Right? Giving feedback, real time. I'm not waiting for an annual review to tell someone you are killing it or you need to step up. You are minutes away from a pit. That's not. When you say that like that does not build trust. And then there's the trust. All of these small opportunities that you get, get to spend with your team. Whether you're in front of the CFO or it's just you all having drinks or working through, you can figure out who you're working with. They get to learn more about you and those moments where they make a mistake, guess what? They're Going to tell you, hey, Mike, I messed up. And you're going to say, of course you did. What's the problem? Let's step through it. But it's also about no surprises. Like I tell the team, you can. I'm going to have your back no matter what. Unless, of course, you go completely rogue and I can't defend it or you don't tell me about it. Just be honest. Let's fix it. So I'd say trust figuring out who it is that you work with and making sure that you're giving real time feedback.

Okay, go to Frank first. We just talked about work, life, balance, hybrid. Ten years ago, that was just a car. That was it. No one knew it. Now everyone does it. I was just with a client this morning. We were talking about, is it five days a week in the office? And I was like, really? Good luck. Five days a week, we're out. It was like. And actually, well, it's three to four. And I was like, okay, if it's three, that's fine. If it's four, and it has to be, yes, we understand that, but why? What's the balance with you guys? We're coming back round through the panel with the balance of work with you guys.

Yeah. So our industry has become much more remote and hybrid recently. So it's really hard to recruit people throughout the company if you don't have some type of remote hybrid availability. My team's in about two days a week. I'm in three days. I think it's important, like, as a leader, that you don't want to be in any less than your team. Right. So I purposely come in one day more than my team. Some days I'm in four days a week. But I think we've evolved to a point in time where there's really unnecessary, especially if you're gonna be on zoom meetings all day and you're not interacting people's face to face. Five days in the office just seems like complete overkill. But I do think there is value to coming together once or twice a week as a team. I saw a difference when we came back in the office. Culture improved. People started working together a little bit better. Some people may be more productive in the office or less. It depends on the individual. But culture is a lot easier to impact whenever a comes in the office at least once or twice a week.

Sandra.

Yes. So he nailed it. So we have a hybrid schedule. We're mandated in 50% of the time every two weeks. So I'm generally in the office two three, sometimes four days a week. It really just depends on what transactions we have and what meetings we have. And some meetings you just want to be in person. It's a privilege and we certainly hope that it doesn't get taken away from us because it's really just an amazing benefit to have to be able to have the flexibility to work from home a day or two a week. But it's amazing for culture and I do believe that our culture would not be as strong if we were remote because it's really hard to build culture and team building and really understand what people are thinking by body language on teams. So it's, it's working out beautifully for us. And we, my team is very compliant. We follow the rules, but there are teams in the company that don't and our badging is tracked and it comes up often enough that if people aren't going to follow the rules, the benefit is going to be lost. And by the way, it might impact your bonus next year. So these are benefits that we should thoroughly enjoy. But you know, they are benefits that can be taken away. And we enjoy being in the office and spending time together because sometimes that's when ideas are generated. I'm not talking to anyone in my home office. I sit next to my assistant treasurers in the audience for moral support. I sit next to him. I literally speak to him more than I speak to my husband because we're in the office a lot, but we might be talking about God knows what and an idea just pops up and it can generate eps. If I'm at home, I'm not doing that. I'm not chit chatting with him. And so it's a great thing and.

People really should embrace probably average, maybe once a week, twice a week. If there's a lot going on and similar to everyone else, it's really being thoughtful about the time that you're spending in the office. Is it effective if for me, I try to make sure that I'm having my touch bases on those days so that we can connect in person, have team meetings in person, maybe break bread, shoot the breeze a bit, take a walk. Everything else we can kind of do on teams, we can figure it out at home. Making sure that when we are together, we are solving for things that seem better together, like brainstorming. We were trying to solve for repatriating some cash and. And he was just like, hey, why don't you guys brainstorm about this? And I don't think he thought we were going to do it. And we got Together, and we had some ideas and he came back in and we gave him a really fantastic list and he was like, wow, you all came up so much more than I anticipated you. I thought you were going to come with three ideas off on the side, but all of that was born out of us sitting in the atrium and just thinking and speaking out loud amongst each other. And so, that said, as treasury practitioners, we have a lot of boring transactions and contracts to read. And so that time alone, where you're able to do deep work, really valuable in an open environment, open concept, you've got five teams calls going on in one ear and somebody talking about what happened to their dog last night and the other. And so having that space to be able to think, mark up a document, make your notes about what you want, to talk to, your internal external counsel, really valuable. So I don't think of hybrid as it is a perk, but I think that we've demonstrated that it's normal. And I do think that, to your point, let's hope that our colleagues don't abuse it so we don't wind back up five days in. But I also think that there's just. We've opened up this access of. Access to talent. So if you go back to five days now, you're looking at being subject to your geography and some people don't want to move, etc. Etc. So I think it's the best of both worlds and we're trying to navigate them.

So as you can see up on the. On the panels, we are going to move to Q and A soon. Not quite yet, but do have some good questions, because you've got this incredible opportunity. When did you get a chance to quiz three great treasures about their treasury careers and everything else you don't. Then also the panel do have some good takeaways as well, so we're going to leave some time for that. But as I do each week on the podcast, we talk through people's careers, then I talk about what do you see as the next step for Treasury? Obviously, we've got to say AI. Everyone's saying, that's it, great, this, robots are taking over the planet. That's it, let's go home. But apparently everyone's still got jobs in here now. And everyone says, well, actually, it's people that can use AI. They're going to be the future and everything else. I'll start with Sandra, then go across to Frank and then come back summit. Sandra, what are you seeing? Is it AI? Is that the key thing for you or are there other areas, do you think? Or any key ones.

So I hate to say it, but yes, AI seems to be the flavor of the year and we are very focused, focused on AI. Although I'm not sure that anyone in treasury has actually found any real use cases for AI. We keep talking about it, but I'm sure we will all as a collective community figure out how to implement AI in our work processes and our cash flow forecasting. And it's really going to be about data analytics and just being more strategic rather than spending so much time doing, doing manual work. You're going to be able to automate all of that and it's about adding value and coming up with ideas and working with your banking partners for those value added opportunities that you can come go to the C suite and show your value.

Yeah, I think obviously AI, everybody could always talk about that, but I'll do something else. So it seems to me like we're moving into a world of more volatility and geopolitics is going to play more of a challenge for companies and there's really no part of the organization that's better prepared to address that than Treasury. And so I think where there is going to be probably an evolution, where we're going to see more differentiation in terms of Treasury Departments is what organizations can utilize tools to help CFOs address challenges and volatility that will arise. Right. Because that's going to be increasingly important for shareholders in terms of what does that mean for earnings, how much exposure do you have to various risk factors having kind of come from banking, having a risk background, I think people are really worried about how you're hedging, how you're thinking about that. So treasury in my mind is a profit center. I think you said it best. Right. And so those organizations demonstrate themselves as a reliable profit are really going to want to shine and those individuals that can contribute to the profit.

So since the pandemic, I think that's where Treasuries level up happened. Right. Like you had teams that didn't know that.

We so noticed.

I did that again. Do we have enough cash for payroll? Yes, we have enough cash for payroll. It started there and since then, to Frank's point, it's become a team that's demonstrating the value to the organization. CFOs are now coming to treasury with questions around, hey, we're thinking about X. How can you make that happen? And a large part of this I think is only going to continue and become way more valuable. Much bigger decisioning maybe it's more than a five year long range plan, it might be stepping out into a 10. But the real idea behind this is how can you all manage our risk in such a way that we can go out and have some really great ideas that will generate cash but you're managing the volatility of the markets to safely for us so that we can do what we do best, which is run the business. I don't know that we can get any more next level than that. I think that's what our job entails today. And as the geopolitical environment continues to shock us and surprise us as well as the government, it's our jobs to be thinking ahead and sharing with our leadership team. We got you covered. Mostly go off, come up with the great ideas and we're going to show you just how feasible that is and or demonstrate where the guard rails are that we need to consider.

Okay. I've talked to a number of treasurers about their how do they show the difference they're making? And one of my first ever podcast actually Nick Taylor from Schroeders, he talked about his chairman saying, right, I want you to come to me with a black book. And that is you look at what difference have you made this week? Each week just have a coffee with yourself. Every month have a coffee with me. But he said, I want to see what difference you've made. And it was all about those little gains. And at the end of each year he was able to come back. The book got thicker and thicker every year.

So a couple of strategies for you.

Guys to get treasury out there amongst the companies. Stuff will go from you somewhere and.

Then across a month at all.

How do you do it in the office?

At the same time we, there's a small committee of us that have come up with curriculum and we figure out what is the broader audience need to understand and learn and whether it's improving your presentation skills to technical components. We hosted a Treasury 101 session and we essentially just walked the team through what a ZBA is. But more importantly, what is an aba? What does the Syndicate of Banks mean? Why are these relationships so important? Why is it imperative that as you're thinking about business decisions and RFPs, you talk to us? Because we might have bankers that offer that service. So really walking them through our capital structure, helping them understand what we mean when we say we're paying down the loan, like literally Treasury 101, it was incredible. One thing that came out of it is everybody wants to join our team. So winning More importantly, people felt more inspired to ask us questions because they felt like they should have known, but they didn't and we broke down this wall. And treasury, as you all in this room can appreciate, is incredibly interesting. So there's that Treasury 101 concept. The other way that I feel like we're sharing about treasury is I share a lot of thoughts on LinkedIn. Whether it's thought leadership or it's about things that I've learned about Treasury, I'm sharing it there as well because I don't think that all that knowledge should be just limited to the people who are fortunate enough to work with me. Everybody should hear my great ideas. But in all seriousness, taking advantage of peer network so we have a group in Columbus, Ohio that I don't love the name, I must have missed the vote, but we call it the Columbus Treasury Coalition. It sounds like a labor union and it's just a male group of assistant treasurers and treasurers and any questions that we have, we keep it so that there aren't banks allowed in said mail group. And we talk about everything under the sun, whether someone's thinking about an rfp, what experiences that they have, good, bad or indifferent, if they're trying to bank in different countries. So that peer access comes in really handy. And I think it just speaks to the value of network and community.

So I love this Treasury 101 idea and I'm going to borrow it or steal it or etc. And this is where the benchmarking comes in because inevitably wherever I go I learn something. So this is great. So in our organization, I guess maybe we're very lucky to be very embedded within finance finance and that we have to partner with every organization. So we're heavily involved. We're a big M and A shop with all of the BD kind of planning and how you're going to basically pay and the rating agency impacts and all of the planning around the M and A. So we're deeply embedded with our BD Finance and BD Business development organization. We, we've launched the Working Capital Optimization program, which is actually one of the most difficult things I've done in my career. It has been the most challenging thing to get done here. But we will prevail because there is a lot to be captured and we need to win the hearts and minds of everyone and everyone really needs to understand it. So when you're out there talking about the things that we need to do for the organization from a cash flow perspective, people will know know who treasury is. And so it's baby steps. Some people don't want to talk to you straight away, but it's okay because some of us are very persistent and we will be heard and we will deliver. But it's, it's always about delivering value. So if, if the treasury organization can prove that they can deliver value, they'll, they'll partner with every organization in.

Yeah, I just to kind of build on that. The treasury is very much the internal bank of the company. Right. And so if you think about your best bankers that you work with, they're generally going to be people that understand your industry, understand your company and bring value to you. And so when you're thinking yourselves as treasury professionals, you really have to bring value to the business partners that you work for throughout the company. I think sometimes treasury gets very insulated and therefore people don't know what you do. You don't understand their business and so therefore they're not really going to listen to you. But if you take the time to understand your business and understand others and bring solutions out to the business, it changes the dynamic a little bit because you're no longer saying, hey, you're having a conversation that impacts me. I need a seat at the table. Because even if you ask for the seat at the table, people will barely give you the seat at the table. But if you're somebody that's helping them out and bringing solutions, then you don't have to ask for the seat at the table. They're bringing you in because they know if you're not there, they're going to not make the right decision or not have all the information that they need to make that decision. So very much be a consultative banker for your internal team and understanding business.

Okay, so questions for the room and then we've got some great takeaways from these guys. What questions do we have? Let's get some hands up. Come on, there must be some. Please.

I'll throw one out. On the geo bruticum front, I've heard there might be some tariffs and other things going on, supply chains and all that issues.

And we know that cash is king.

Cash has been very up over the last four years. So what, what are you guys missing in terms of where you can put money and make money, but what's, what's not there for you?

Flat, total volatility.

Can't go out anywhere.

What do you do?

Yeah, I mean, so my thoughts on that are you're going to have a challenging environment, right? So particularly if you have an environment where we have higher inflation due to tariffs. Theoretically, if that happens and you have slower growth. And so the question is, do you wind up in stagnation? And so what does that mean? It means different things, right? So I think one of the best things that you need to do is you need to look at your business, okay, what are my impacts? Right? So am I going to be impacted from tariffs? And therefore I need to buy inventory now? And so therefore there's a cash demand and what does that mean from a working capital perspective and what's the cost, cost of it? And then going back to the CFO and saying, listen, if we want to kind of buy now and build our inventory against that, this is the cost. So this is kind of the break even point in doing that work. I think that's one way to kind of address it. And then understanding, talking to the business line leader, their demand issue here that we need to be aware of, are we going to expect our receivables to spike and what does that mean? So I think that's the other way. And then from a debt standpoint we're advocating what does your debt stack look like? And do you want to change that? Do you want to use swaps, do you want to use collars, things of that nature. And so there's not like one right out plan because nobody has the crystal ball. And so I think any solution is going to have pros and cons. And so what I just did in a recent work with my cfo, as I said, listen, here are the different paths we can take at least on the debt side to figure out how we want to position ourselves. Here are the pros and cons. If we're worried about the downside risk, really this is the right solution, right? If you want to the upside, that's the right solution. If you don't really care, then the middle solution works. But I think bringing that out is an important way to address it. But I don't think there's going to be a great solution unfortunately because anything that you do is going to have a risk.

I mean pharma is in the crosshairs hate us, Democrats hate us. We have ira, we have tariffs, we have tax there. There's so many things against us and we simply don't even know what where we are in terms of tariffs. I mean we have a manufacturing footprint outside of the US we don't know how the tariffs are going to impact us. What we do know today is we have receivables and payables and inventory that we can optimize. So we need to focus on what we can control today. And when things are well defined, we will figure out how to proceed.

Not much to add. I'm in retail, so sell thongs. We sell thongs. I think exactly what both Frank and Sandra said. It's being aware of what your pending risk is and over communicating. This is what this looks like. This is what we're up against. Making sure that the board and the leadership team are fully aware that and so that there are no surprises. But it's not quite clear. So what the organization wants is confidence that somebody's paying attention. As things swing from left to right, we're focused on how we would need to pivot. And I think that's all. I don't want to say all we can do, but it's what our job entails and it's a perfect time to really evaluate the importance of volatility and the importance of staying in tune with everything that's going on. So you aren't the reason for the surprise.

Time for one more where we go. Daniel, what would you tell yourself?

Anything.

I would have thrown away the journal much sooner.

So the question is what? What would you give? What advice would you give to your younger self? Looking back now, we'll start with Summer and that's it. And that that was the end of her career. That's it.

I probably would have branched out of treasury at some point so that I wasn't pegged into the treasury box because now I am in the treasury box and if I wanted to do something different, it's going to be very hard for me to get out of that treasury box. I've been in treasury for 24 years and now everyone knows how old I am. So sometimes we have to step out of. I'm very comfortable in Treasury. I love my job. So I don't actually want to be a CFO anywhere. But if I had endeavored to do something else, that would have been something that I should have done earlier in my career. And I think the other thing which is going to sound a little cheesy is believe in myself and eliminate the negative voices. I was once told you can never be treasurer of a $90 billion company. Not sure what we're trading at today, but I think our market caps a little over 90 billion. So there will always be people out there that will put you down and you have to just learn to switch that off and move forward and believe in yourself.

I think the probably when I think about it is alluded to this earlier is don't be so prescriptive about what you're going to do. Right. Be open, listen to everything, take it all in. But when you make a decision, make sure it's the right decision. Be methodical about it. It's okay to take a risk. Just if you're going to take a risk, say, downside is this, this is my exit plan. Upside is this, this is how I'm going to go forward. If it doesn't pan out, then I pivot. Right. But having plan, but being open I think is important. And I learned that later in life. I think it's a good lesson to learn when you're young.

You will also get to ask. I won't read questions. Actually, when we're doing the Network, we've got some great takeaways from our panelists today. So we've done the questions that you.

Insist, what you bring to the table, what you're interested in, relationships are your strongest currency. My stock just leveled up. I sat on the panel with these two. It's really important for you to connect beyond your circle of trust. Get out into a conversation. As we step into the networking section session of this evening, talk to three people that you don't know, volunteering to be one of them. Even though I think you know everything that you need to know about me now, bet on yourself. Frank said it, Sandra said it, like, just, even if you don't think you're ready, take a. Take the chance. The only person that knows that you failed is you. And you will be able to figure out where your gaps are and fill them. And last but not least, treasury is more than the job, it drives the strategy of the company. I think over the last 45 minutes, that's what you've heard, hopefully from the three of us. And we have really big, important, visible jobs. And it's our job to ensure that the company is not able, is not not running because we don't have any cash to do it.

Yes. So treasury is a very small world. Your reputation will precede you. Make those good relationships with those bankers, because those bankers can make or break your careers. My AT came to me through the banking relationship. So careers can be built on having that reputation and those relationships. And like I said before, take ownership of your career. You have to be proactive. No one's going to hand you a job on a platter that you really covet. I'm results focused. So I will always tell you that you have to focus on delivering value and showing how you're strategic and to justify why we exist really in an organization especially many of us are going through cost cutting, be open to change. Change is constant and if we don't embrace it, we're just going to fail honestly and get uncomfortable. And frankly, this was really uncomfortable for me, so this was me getting uncomfortable sitting here. But that's how we grow.

Frank, I think the biggest thing I would say to take away from these bolts, they tie into one. Be a differentiator, right? Differentiate your brand, whatever your personal brand is. So how do you do that? A couple of bolts here. One, think like an owner. A lot of people worry about them and they don't worry about the broader company. If you want to differentiate yourself to the C suite, think that you're thinking globally and not just what's about what's good for you, what's good for everyone. Very few people do that. And so if you do that, it will be rewarded. I promise you that. Lifelong learning, commitment to always wanting to know what's going on, be able to bring new ideas to the table. Value personal connections. We're in a digital world that drives me crazy. Don't get me wrong, I love technology, Technology. But people use that as a way to put up a shield and not interact with people. Yours are built on deep personal relationships. And whether it be bankers, events like this, you don't have to see everybody face to face all the time. Believe me, I don't want to see everybody. I like my personal space sometimes and, and, but take the time to go out, challenge yourself. I'm going to do one, one external networking event a month. Make connections. You will differentiate yourself. Most people do not do that. And make sure that you're positioned for opportunities. So if there's something that you want to do, right, ask for it. Say, I want to do this. Whether it's, ask Mike, Joe, your boss, whoever, what is missing from my resume? What do I need to do to get to that next level? Because people just won't ask, right? They'll assume, oh, I'm perfect, right? Be, be vulnerable. Say, you know what? I have things I could work on, right? You're looking at my resume, what am I missing? And let somebody. And even if you don't like the answer, right, take the feedback, process it, and then move forward. Because if somebody is going to be open and honest with you, that's great because most people aren't. And so getting that candid feedback is going to help you grow.

Cool. So my tips here, you've got here these relationships you've just seen Three amazing treasurers talking through the evening. When you go out there, make sure, exactly as Summer said, you speak to three people you don't know. Because otherwise, why did you bother to come here today? You've made the effort. It's not easy. You've done a long day at work. You think, oh, God, yeah, it would be much easier just to go, get on the subway and head home. You've made the effort to do it. Give it before you get. Now, that actually came out from Nicole, wherever Nicole is at the back. She was amazing. New York Cash Exchange. She is lovely. Don't. Whoa, whoa, whoa. Her head is already big enough now. Don't want any more. Okay. Basically, I put my hand up and I said, look, I noticed you're doing some sessions. Can I help? Can I just do that? Next thing I know, I'm then speaking again later this year. But then she was the one that actually said, why don't you apply for CTP credits for your sessions? These are educational. Da, da, da. Really? They'll do it. Yeah. Now, all of our live sessions, but that came from me putting my hand up. And also, I know everyone's seen a lot of these sessions. And then this. Did this back in Chicago a few years ago. I don't enjoy public speaking. Weird. I don't enjoy it. But I know to grow my business and to get out with you guys, I have to do it, get out of my own way, get out of my comfort zone. And that's where the visibility pays off. You might have seen some of the posts. I'm doing a bit on LinkedIn and everything else. This latest one, lovely rugby picture. Thank you for the comments. But the fact, weird thing is, I don't do my personal life on there. I don't do Facebook. But the fact is we now do a newsletter every Tuesday and then do a comment video on it. It's now taking off. Now, all of you guys might not say, well, actually, I'm a treasurer, I should be on LinkedIn going about this. This is the other one. Sharing your wins isn't bragging. So when I did the session with Katherine, Grant Alston or whatever with New York Cash Exchange, we asked who had put one of their achievements or some. One of the bits that they'd saved. The treasury professionals who are on the call, 65% said they hadn't put one achievement on their LinkedIn profile in a year. What? Like, guys, you do hard jobs, you just talked about geopolitical. You're doing all this, you're working hard, get Some credit for it. It doesn't have to be confidential company information. It can be, hey, this is what I achieved this week, so stick it in your diary for Friday. Just take five minutes over a coffee and make a note of what was your one win of the week and do it every week. Then you'll have 52 wins for the year. If you're not getting 52 wins, call me because that's what we do. And then final bits again, that's tracking your achievements. So I want you guys to put your hands together in a moment, wait for it and then do take five, 10 minutes because we've got some lovely sponsors who have paid for the drinks. You've got to make the most of the opportunity. If you don't just go on the escalator. Up to you, your choice. Here we go. Big hand together. And as we say, there's free booze now, so go. I hope you enjoyed listening to this week's podcast just as much as I did recording it with another amazing guest. Now, don't forget to subscribe on your usual platform with whether that's Spotify, Apple Podcasts wherever you listen, so you never miss a future episode whilst you're there. If you're listening on Apple Podcasts, maybe give us a five star review. Why? Because it helps other treasury professionals find the show. Join the conversation and get even more value now. Also, we're helping you guys in Treasury. If you are thinking about studying for your CTP or FPA qualification, then listen up. We partnered with the AFP to offer a discount on study, both for the studying and for the preparation platform as well. So you can get through us. $150 discount? Yes, $150 for each. My goodness. Yeah, we're here to help, so it's a great step for your career and always good to save where you can. So all you need to do is go to treasure recruitment.com forward slash partners. You got the codes there, then you head across to their website and you get the discount. You also as well, if it wasn't enough, we're going to be heading to AFP Boston later on in the fall, as the Americans call it in October. And we also offer 150 discount off your registration. So wherever you might be, it's a great conference, whether you're in UK and Europe. You should go. I'm going. It's going to be amazing. So incredible few days, great insights, proper networking, great conversations with lots and lots of treasures. Last time in Nashville, 8,000 plus one of their biggest ones ever. It was amazing. So just go to the Show Notes and you'll find the link or treasure recruitment.com partners and get it all from there. Remember, if you're looking for a role, visit treasure recruitment.com if you need some advice, reach out mike@treasury recruitment.com or come and meet us in person. We've got our sessions coming up. We've got sessions throughout this year in Texas, then we've got London, we've got Dublin, then we're back to the US for Chicago, then New York, crumbs everywhere, Euro Finance, the lot. And then afp, and then back to London, and then we'll do Netherlands as well. So it'll be great to see you. We're going to be everywhere, so looking forward to it. Thanks very much. And until next week, enjoy the show.

SA.