Important Treasury Career Lessons with Karen Molloy

Foreign.

So welcome back this week to another amazing episode from our archives. This was episode 84 where I talked to the lovely Karen Malloy about 30 years of treasury lessons. An amazing lady. You're going to hear our full conversation. Hang on at the end for a bit of a catch up with Karen and we talk through what happened into the pandemic. Post pandemic throughout it and the future and exactly there. So some great lessons from today's show. I hope you enjoy it. Once again, one of our most popular podcasts. Don't forget, once you've listened to it, leave us a little rating on itunes. We really appreciate it. In this week's show, I'm joined by Karen Malloy, the vice president and treasurer, Northwestern Mutual Life Company. Northwestern Mutual was founded as a mutual life Insurance Group in 1857. American financial services based in headquarters in Milwaukee. Now they provide consultation number of different areas which I'll get Carolyn to outline a little bit more. But overall they are a mutual group. They're about 104 in the 2018 Fortune 500. So massive group, 265 billion in assets when we did the research Here, company holds 125 billion of client assets. Massive but financial security to more than four and a half million people. Great company. Look at them up on the website and everything else. But again, Karen can explain that because she's been there probably the longest, I think for many of my guests, a couple of others on the show. But she's been with the group nearly 30 years, which is interesting I think as a recruiter in itself. But what we'll do, we'll take caren way back when to when she first ever started. Karen, perhaps tell us if you would, about how your career started and how you discovered the wonderful world of maybe finance and then discovered Treasury. Over to you.

Thanks. So the career really started. I always had an interest in numbers and an interest in money. So my first path was down getting into retail banking. And I did that while still going to school and you know, found that it was a very interesting career. So like dealing with clients, like understanding how personal finances worked, how the finances of a branch worked and of the bank itself. And then once I finished and got my bachelor's degree, I decided to see what the value of that degree was and had applied at a number of places, other banks. But one of the other places I applied was Northwestern Mutual. It had a great reputation in the community as a good employer, so was fortunate enough to get an interview and really kind of started out leading the operations team from the treasury perspective and immediately fell in love with treasury and what it means to an organization. I really think it's kind of one of the core competencies. It's kind of at the heartbeat of an organization because you need cash to do anything. So we're not tied into just one aspect of the business. We really have to know the entire organization, what their cash needs, what the cash flows are for those parts of the organization.

Okay. And Karen, when you first started, you said you did sort of running a branch within a bank and then discovered, as you say, Northwestern. But we talked about the values there and the value set insofar as you were working in a bank, they got taken over and then things shifted. And working the mutual number of times you have things in the UK like building societies and mutual organizations, you said it's quite different. So you found that quite early on, Is that right? And you sort of grew your career.

So when I started working for the bank, it was actually a mutual. So again it was about your depositors, it was about your customers. But then the bank decided to go public and that really changed the focus. It changed the growth strategy for the bank. It was about dividends to the shareholders, which weren't necessarily your depositors. And it was expenses were looked at differently. Just all aspects of the business were looked at differently. So given the chance to go back to work for a mutual company was attractive to me. I don't think coming into the job I had an appreciation of how important mutuality was to Northwestern Mutual. But over my 30 year career here it is something we constantly talk about and the importance of being a mutual. And employees know what mutuality means and why that's important. And you hear every employee talk about when they make decisions. You can hear the conversation around how does that affect the policy owner. So it's not. We don't have to have discussions about quarterly earnings. We have a very long range view of things. I think that served us very well in situations like 2008, 2009, where we weren't having to meet quarterly earnings. We could take that long term perspective and maybe make some decisions that we wouldn't have made if we were a publicly traded company. But it is ingrained in all of us. There is this sense of the work that we do is for the policyholders. The product that we have, the service that we bring to people is around financial security. Whether that's becoming disabled and not being able to work and closing that income gap or that somebody passes away and that the family can still thrive because Those life insurance benefits are there. You hear time and time again about kids that were able to go to college because that life insurance policy was there. So it's just something you know when you know you're, when you're driving for decisions that are really right for the policyholders and you have a product that, that really can make a difference in people's lives, it makes it very fulfilling.

And you're talking there about the benefit if you like and usually working in recruitment, you talk about features and benef and why I might use it. Now one of the things when I was doing my research which I really found interesting and maybe if you would we'll get the PR spin from you, we'll get the sales pitch for why you'd be with Northwestern, not to join them to work for, but more as a company. Because I found it really interesting. One of the things that sort of struck me as you talked about there where if you're a policy owner and again I think you know this has happened less so with some of the building societies and things like that once be for all of them. But some of them, you know where say you going to get a dividend for being one of the policy owners, you can then either use that to sort of increase your life insurance policy without costing more so then reduce the cost of your premiums if you wanted or take the dividend simply in cash. But it sort of seemed to have that if you like circularity, if that's the right way of looking after people. So talk about the actual business if you would and the sort of things you do, life insurance or what are the other things that you guys provide and then we'll dig into your more your treasury path and discovery of that, if you would.

Yeah, and I think that's one of the things that has evolved over my time with the organization. When I started with the company, life insurance, it's still at the core of what we do. It's still in our name. Right. But the focus was on life insurance. We had disability income as a product line but that was still relatively new. We didn't have long term care and we did have a broker dealer but that was a very small aspect of our business. So again life insurance is still 85% of what we do. So but that being said, I think what we've understood over time is we believe whole life is a very core and important part of somebody's financial security and it's an important tool to have in your investments amongst the things that you purchase in your life. I think we've taken a broader perspective to say over time you need to have, there's kind of a suite of things that you need to have in order to have that financial security over your entire life. And the way we look at it is kind of there's this foundational piece and we would call that the life insurance and we would call that disability income, right? So at the foundation you're protecting from living too long, dying too soon, you know, you have that foundation protected, then you kind of in life, hopefully go through kind of a wealth accumulation stage. So now that's a different set of products that you need more. And that's where our broker dealer comes more into play. And being able to invest those assets and grow those assets put you in a position, right, to put your kids through school, save for retirement. And then after you're, you know, as you're going through that part, then as you get towards the end of, end of life, it's, it's more about estate planning and what are you going to do with these assets that you've now accumulated over time and how are you going to disperse those? So we've tried to look at it more wholesalers, holistically throughout your life and say, what are the needs? And put this entire package together. And again, it's just with the mindset of we're trying to help people have financial security.

And then you yourself, you've been with the group for a number of years, so talk us through that sort of each of the steps in your career and how at the same time, maybe alongside that sort of hand in hand, is how you've seen treasury evolve, because it must have been when you started just approaching 30 years ago, very different. And that's when I started In treasury recruitment 25 years ago, whatever it was. And I've seen it change with the advent of LinkedIn and all those things, but for yourself, firsthand in treasury, talk us through that, if you would.

So I don't know if you would have asked me 25 years ago if I would have defined treasury at that point as simple, but when I, when I go back and look, I think about how it was a lot simpler when I started. You know, it was, you know, they're very defined payment types. There was no even taking those payment rails and trying to make them different. Right? No PayPal's, no Venmos. Right. It was wire ach, check and check was still a large part of what we did. And you know, that's a much slower pace to it. And the Amount of transactions was a lot less The. A large part of what we do here. With 265 billion in assets, we have a very, very large investment portfolio. The investments were much simpler back then, more straightforward. You didn't have derivatives that you were trying to understand how those works and the implications. So things continue to get more complex. Our product lines, we didn't have as many product lines as we do today. So the interesting thing is, though, 25 years ago, I had more staff than I have today.

So how many do you have then?

How many were back then? We had 25 and we're down to 20 people now, so.

And the volume of activity, that's gone.

Up more than double, more than doubled.

I tell you what, ask your boss for more people. Just say, come on, I need more people. Can't automate too much. I'm joking. How's it changed?

So technology has played a key in what treasury does now. So I was fortunate enough that when I started with the company, we had just implemented a Treasury workstation, which was very innovative back 30 years ago. It's a necessity today, but it was very innovative back then. But that's what really allowed us to grow over time and take on the volume that we did without having to add staff, because we had integrated that technology early. But with that being said, we used to call wire transfers in. Right now, all of that is fed into the banking systems. We're able to request whereby paper from the business areas. Now that's all electronic and we can feed that information right into the systems. You know, the amount of investment activity. Again, by using technology, we're able to take in much higher levels of trade activity, much more complicated trade activity than we used to be able to do. And it gives people a lot of variety in what they do. So technology has continued to grow. I mean, we. I'm trying to. I'm sitting here trying to think, is there anything we do that doesn't have a technology component to it? And nothing really comes to mind whether it's paying the bank bills. Right. We have software that analyzes that we have to do the bank reconciliation. There's software that does that. So everything has a automated component to it. And I would say where we're at today is now it's about taking that data and saying, what can we learn from that data? So that's kind of the next evolution that we're going to be facing. So you've gone from a lot of manual processes to automating those using leveraging technology there, which has created A ton of data. And now we have to start figuring out how can we use that data to do what we do better.

Yeah. And talk me through each of the steps up in your career and how, what you would attribute those to, because if you like. So back in 2000, you were in a decent role there, but then 2002, you became assistant treasurer, and then you, in 2011, you know, after a number of years with the group, you sort of became treasurer. How did you set yourself up for each of those moves and what was it like making the move? You're already there, you know, you're known as one of the people in the team. But then that first step, and again, we've got listeners who will be making maybe that first step. They're senior treasury manager, there might be a trader or whatever. They're going, right, I'm making that first step to assistant treasurer. What was that like for you? I know it was a couple of years ago, but you know what, looking back on it, what would you do?

Yeah. So, you know, as I, as I started my career, I managed kind of the operations for the treasury team. And so that was great insight into, you know, what the organization was about, where the cash flows were. I moved on to a project consulting role. And I would say that was a key role for me because now I had to take my treasury knowledge and align it with business knowledge. So I would be one that would be representing treasury and some of the tools, payment options that the banks could bring to the table and going out to the business areas and working with them to improve the work they were doing. So one of the big initiatives was to try to get ACH leveraged across all of our product lines, do more with electronic payments. So you're educating people, but you have to understand how their process works. So, I mean, you can do an ACH transaction, but if all that does is deposit the dollars into your bank account, it doesn't update your admin systems, it doesn't do any good. So really making them understand the payment side. But then I needed to understand the business side. And I think that just really opened my eyes to and really gave me a lot of knowledge about the organization that is probably even more valuable today than it was back then. And so I did that for a number of years. And then, as with everyone, it's always good to deviate. I took a bit of a left turn and I ended up raising my hand when there was an opportunity to go to our common stock group as a foreign equity trader. So a lot of that had to do with. I had worked with those folks a lot as they had set up a lot of new portfolios. We started set up public mutual funds at the time, so they had gotten to know me well. So they were taking a big chance because this was not my background, but they give me that chance. And really, I was kind of at a fork in the road in my career where my boss was. I saw her as the heir apparent to be the assistant treasurer and then to move on into that treasury role. So I thought, you know, I don't know that I want to sit here and wait 15 years before I have that opportunity. So I took this left turn and it was, again, it was great experience. I learned a ton, and I brought things to the table that that team didn't know. So. And how it connected. Ironically, I only ended up doing that a year because my boss back in treasury had decided to leave the organization. She wanted to pursue a career in account. And so I had a great boss at the time, which is a key in people's career, and sat me down. And she said, karen, if you're interested in going back to Treasury, I can. She goes, I don't want you to leave the common stock group, but if that's what you're interested in doing, that's in the best interest of the organization and I'll fully support it. So then I had the ability to go back and that was. Can't say how excited I was to kind of build a Treasury team as the assistant treasurer. You know, my boss, as a treasurer, he really let me kind of lead because he had other responsibilities. He kind of let me really kind of form the treasury team into what I wanted it to be.

How did you form it? You know, what was the ethos behind it? Or what, when you're hiring, what were you looking for? Or what the. Again, this is an advice show in many ways that people are going, wow, yeah, I've got to do that. What were your. What was your ethos behind it? How did you focus it?

So it was, you know, the thought was that we wanted people that wanted to know really more about how the business ran, wanted to understand how investments work, weren't afraid to get in there, be vulnerable, and that they might not have the knowledge, but were willing to figure it out and, you know, kind of giving everybody that chance to do it. Not pigeonholing, okay, you're just going to do this set of work and really kind of putting everyone through the rotation, the work and letting them kind of figure out where they felt their skill sets aligned. So the team had really gone through. And at that moment in time, we were going through some turnover anyway. So it allowed us to bring in some different perspectives, some folks with some outside experience, which is always good. And so it just allowed us to kind of go in a different direction. And at that point, the idea was to try to message that treasury is a key strategic partner that needs to be at the table. As you're starting the process, don't wait to include us because you're ready to roll out a product and now you realize, oops, how are we going to collect premiums on this product? That we should really have a role earlier in the process and be at the table and help, and that we can add a very broad perspective on things.

And then as you grew the team, you grew that over the next 10 years, and you. You mentioned there that your boss was focusing on other things. After 10 years, nearly 10 years of the role, it was time for you to step up. What was that like making the. Being the number one? And you've been there 2012 to seven years. How was that a change, a shift and things?

So it probably was, I would have to say, as a young treasury professional, was never on my radar to be the treasurer of Northwestern Mutual. So I don't know that it was at the forefront of my mind. I think as I prepared for the role, though, my attitude was always, I don't want to find that there's the next opportunity and I'm not prepared for it. So I think I always took the approach of what education do I have to have? How do I continue to learn, and how do I continue to take on additional responsibilities that are outside of what I'm currently doing? And I just think from that, I was surprised that I was more prepared for the role than maybe I thought it was going to be. So when you're an assistant, you know, there's always somebody else that you can say, well, I need you to make the decision. So, but now that's your role. And I think, you know, just following the same pattern I'd followed up to that point, I became comfortable in being the one making the decisions. I think you also surround yourself with good people, people that understand the alignment of where you're trying to go, are willing to roll up their sleeves and get at those right answers and that you can. What is the best answer? So I would say it took a number of years. Doing board reports was not something that, you know, I would say it was unnatural for me, but over Time you do one and you feel like, you know, I did that really well, it really gives you a lot of confidence for the next one. And I think as I've gone in now over the years, I go in annually to give an update. I'm even better prepared for their questions. I think they continue to try to challenge our thinking and what we're doing, which is good. So I think just all those opportunities really prepare you for that type of leadership role.

And you're also, you head up the Wisconsin AFP and you're involved with those guys. Are you seeing that? The AFP study and ctp, for instance, and things like that? Is that a big thing for you guys, or what are your thoughts about studying, continuous learning and things like that? Professional development?

Yeah. And I would say, you know, mid, you know, about 10 years into my career is when I took the Certified Treasury Professional Exam. And I think that's a really important credential to have. Back then, it was actually called the Certified Cash Manager. And when they switched it, you know, you had to make the decision to take the new credential because you weren't a permanent CCM anymore. You would, as a ctp, you had to have the continuing education and some other requirements. And I went, you know, if you're really committed to being in treasury, this is a credential that you should have. And I think the exam was a good challenge for me because there's the theoretical and then there's the world you live in, which aren't always necessarily 100% in alignment. So, you know, really having to dive in there again and really study for the exam, I think was good. I certainly, my staff gets challenged with taking that exam. There are some other credentials, too, that we're expanding for the Treasury Group, such as the ACH credential, because that's such a large part of what we do. So having those specialties and having some credibility behind it with a credential, I think is really important. I'm a lifelong learner. I actually really enjoy learning. My team monthly, we do a spotlight topic, and it can be anything from talking to bringing in a panel to have them talk about their careers to last month was about derivatives. So, you know, I just find that very enjoyable. It's what keeps your mind fresh. It keeps you challenged, it keeps you getting to better solutions. So I think through the Wisconsin afp, that opportunity to learn at the national level with afp, you know, it gives you some insights into what vendors are doing, what your peers are doing. One of the things I get teased about a lot, but at the afp when I attend they do industry roundtables and I never, I don't attend the insurance industry roundtable on purpose.

Look at you.

Because I want to know what other industries are doing and I, I have the insight. I belong to Loma, which is a life insurance industry, sports for life industry, and we have a trusted group. So I have a lot of ins into the insurance industry. So this gives me a chance, you know, to look at, you know, I love going to the utility one, the retail one, just what. Because they're out there a little bit further along than an insurance company is when it comes to payments and some other things. So it just gives me some insight into what, what challenges we have that lie ahead. So, so I think just you don't have to always stay within your, your sleeve of industry that you're in. And that's what's been great about Treasury. Although I haven't chosen to leave North. I could be go to a Treasury at a manufacturer, I could be a treasurer at a hospital. It's a skill set that every company needs across any industry.

It's transferable all the way across. It's great. And then looking at just your leadership style and those guys working for you, obviously we host the podcast, the treasury recruitment company. We don't sell like that on the podcast. It's not our ethos. What we want to do is share your stories and everything else. But, but in terms of your recruitment, digging into that for a moment, what are you looking for? So someone's sending you their resume, you guys are advertising or something like that. What do you pick out of it? What are you looking for? Is it good resume? But then it's all about the meeting or what ticks your box and what are your drivers to freshen up the team and bring new people on.

Yeah. So I think, of course experience always matters. So I mean that's that, that's what you're going to get out of looking, I think at somebody's resume. But for me it is that face to face conversation and a lot of it is just looking for that willingness to try new things. A really important aspect for me is willingness to admit mistakes because we all make them and you know, so it's how you handle that that really makes a difference. Right. If you can admit the mistake, learn from this mistake and move on, you know, versus it's going to be somebody else's fau, that's just going to drive a lot of other issues on your team. Or within the organization. So that's a big one for me. Go ahead.

Sorry to pause you there. I'm asking for the listeners here, you say, yeah, you admit your mistakes and everything else, but you're walking into an interview with Karen Malloy, the 30 year Treasurer of this massive organization and then you want to walk in, oh, I was terrible at this and I learned from it. But yeah, I was really rubbish. I really failed in this. Surely that's going to be difficult to do at interview. So how are you going to, you know, how are you going to assess that from someone? Because they're going to go, they're always going to give you the most positive thing. Yes. You might do a competency base and say, look, tell us about we've recovered from a difficult situation or how would you pitch that?

So one of the things with me is a lot of transparency. And so when I tee up the question, I'll talk about a mistake I made. So right off the bat, putting them hopefully at ease. And this is actually even something we're trying to do within the culture today with current employees. Right. We're moving at such a different pace that probably are making more mistakes than we used to, but you're also making them earlier in the process. So anyways, so back from an interview perspective. You know, I think the message is, hopefully when it comes across from me is by admitting that I've made mistakes and giving an example that it's okay to be honest about what that mistake is. And again, a lot of it is going to be, it isn't necessarily the mistake, it's what did you do afterwards? You know, how did you, how did you learn from it? That's the aspect of the answer that's really important to me.

Yeah. And breaking it down and the learning lessons you got from it and stuff and apologies wasn't a trick question. It's more that I think people do listen from the outside. And that's why I hoped your answer. But, you know, you might have been a different way. That's why I asked these, these questions. Questions. Okay. You know, just looking back over your time there and we'll come, you know, we'll wrap up shortly. But you know, what we'll do is we'll put your LinkedIn notes in the show notes so people can connect to you if it's appropriate things. But looking back over your career and it's been a number of very successful years and that's proven, what would you, you know, someone says, do you know what? I want the same Background as Karen what are the sort of key tips you would go give to those guys? We do this every week on the show, but maybe some actionable tips or what would you say to people listening to the show today and going, actually, that's great, I should be doing that? What would you say?

Yeah, I think two key things come to mind. The first one is around not putting limits around the responsibilities that you have. You need to know what you're responsible for today. You need to do that. You need to do that well, but you should be looking around saying, well, what else can I do? You shouldn't. You should be going into your boss's office and saying, what can I take off your, your plate? You're a busy person. What can I take from you that will help me learn? You shouldn't be afraid of taking on something that maybe isn't in your comfort zone or something that's going to challenge you. In the last few years, one of the things that I've taken on is up until probably five years ago, fraud was pretty minimal in the organization. But fraudsters have figured out there's some cash value in our product and they're figuring out how to different angles to commit fraud. And so again, if I go back to those mutual values, that's hard when you know that somebody's coming in and harming our policyholders because we're here about protecting them. And so whether it was their email that was hacked or some other way that, you know, they figured out they were a customer of ours. So I raised my hand to start up the fraud committee and kind of really, kind of position the organization to say, you know, unfortunately, the world we live in, having, you know, a fraud program is now more important than it ever has been. And really communicating that at the corporate level and getting employees to understand, getting our field to understand, you know, that the fraudsters are looking at us now. So it really didn't have anything. Treasury didn't have to do that. As a treasurer, I didn't have to do that. It really, a lot of it has to do with the operations of the organization, but it gave me a chance to a learn more about cyber risk. You know, that that was something I had to roll up my sleeves and understand more about. It gave me a chance to really kind of message across the organization. It gave me some exposure to our field, which I typically don't have. So just not being afraid of those types of challenges and being willing to raise your hand, you know, what, big, small, whatever, and say, hey, give me a chance to do that. So that would be. One is limiting what you see your responsibilities as and the other one we kind of talked about a little bit is just that finding time to learn. Again, there's. For me, there's so much that we're trying to take 163-year-old insurance company that's been very paper based and make it a digital experience for our clients. And what does that mean and what might that look like? And again, how have other industries transformed in that way so that, that as treasury has a seat at the table, you can bring in those perspectives. So it isn't just oh, here's what treasury needs. But I've been thinking about so that just that learning aspect and just it's fun to ask people what are you working on? You know, and so you go to a conference, you know, you can ask people from different industries what are you working on, what are some of your challenges, how are you dealing with this, how are you using blockchain, how are you, you know, whatever it is. So that learning aspect. So because that's what's going to keep this, that's what keeps this job very interest, interesting, very passionate about Treasury. But I can say that I don't feel like from a day to day perspective I'm working on the same things several days in a row. Right. There's just lots of things because there's cash around the entire part of the organization. So you know, you just don't know which part of the business you're going to be brought into on something. So the more you can learn and when you're in those positions of being asked questions, you can give a Treasury answer, but you can also give a broader perspective.

Yeah. Wider than that. And I think that they both link, don't they? So you know, as you say, I'll just put the notes here, push outside of your comfort zone and by continuously learning and then you can integrate and add value to other parts of the business. So wow, guys, hope you enjoyed that episode from way back when. That's right. January 2020. We actually recorded I think slightly before then. Well, wow, January 2020, Karen and I talking about so many lessons learned within treasury and then there's been a few more lessons learned since then if you like and things have moved on, life wise and world wise. Karen joins me again now and she's very gratefully giving up some more of her time to bit of a reflection and I know that when we spoke the other day, Karen, he said, well, your original prediction was see you in a couple of months, guys. A couple of weeks or something.

Something.

Over to you.

Off by 96 weeks, that's all.

Well, go on your prediction skills. That's all right. But over to you.

I'm happy to be back and give a part two to this and give an update on what's been going on.

Amazing. So talk to me about how did it then affect you? We did the podcast, we know how it affected everyone. But what was the working things? And now as we return to work this time, what's been in Northwestern Mutual's journey, if you like, in yours as a treasurer? What's it been like for you guys?

Yeah, so I think it's had a number of twists and turns. I think anticipating that we would ever work from home exclusively for two years was never on anybody's radar. We were well prepared with a very sound business resumption plan, but just learning to work in that environment and what it took took as an organization to get all 6,000 employees being able to work together in a virtual environment. When I reflect back, we left the Office on Friday, March 13. As of Monday, we were told to start working from home and by Wednesday, 96% of the employees were at least online and being able to do, if not all of their work, a large portion of their work. So it was impressive how the company responded working with our field force who is very accustomed to dealing with things face to face. So what was their world going to be like and how could we help them through this process and our clients? Our senior leadership team put together video chats with clients that they could log in and hear from our senior leaders and understand as an organization how we were prepared for this. So it was from an organization perspective. It was probably one of my proudest moments of Northwestern Mutual and how they handled it and how quickly, quickly things came together in order to make sure that we were ready to do this. And then I would say behind the scenes, treasury was doing the same thing. The world was changing very rapidly. When you think about stress tests that you plan for, you don't ever anticipate that the world's economy is going to be shut down within a matter of a couple weeks. It's just not something any of us fathom. So the markets were on quite an interesting ride and how we had to be positioned and having enough liquidity and where we're we at and what was policy owner behavior looking like at almost every day there were questions so I can't express enough pride in my team and how well prepared they were. Years of looking at data and preparing data and gathering data on all those different trends really became very useful in those moments. So it was that March to April timeframe was. It was an interesting time to be in treasury for a large organization. And we weathered it very well.

And then as you as a team and you as a leader, the treasury leader, as it were, as you then progressed through it, I again, you and I spoke about this, that we were doing various, you know, a lot of the podcast focus on this at the time. And then as we started to sort of transition out, started to see the sort of, you know, the glimpses of where it might be at the end and things like that. You've been through this trying to get balance. We talked about, about home office and I'll do one more email, I'll just do that. So you're trying to get that balance. I know we spoke with that. What was that like for you as leader? You know, how did you deal with the guys? We talked to a couple of our previous guests about virtual, you know, around the coffee, you know, around the water cooler moments and virtual coffee mornings and things. But as you started to come out of it, you know, how did you guys, you know, come out of the storm, as it were?

Yeah, I know there was definitely a focus on our people. The organization really did, again, a phenomenal job of we had been doing pulse surveys with employees, but not as routinely as we did during the pandemic. Really trying to get at what the issues are at the moment so that you could address things more timely, not do a semiannual or annual survey of employees. So that was one way that gave you insight. I think my team, myself, you know, we started doing weekly huddles, having conversations about what was on their mind. I think we also just had to get more creative in how we kind of interact with each other and kept things not so serious all the time. Right in the office you can feel easier to have a little fun. So we did things like we started something called Fun Fridays and we just did all kinds of different activities. Things like scavenger hunts around your house. You know, one of the things they had to find was their ID badge after six months of being out. So just trying to find creative ways to engage everybody and have a little fun and kind of take the edge off a little bit. And you know, just making sure though too, it's having those conversations with your employees that although your, your office now is, is maybe only 30ft from where, where you're watching TV, it needs to be shut down. You need to have that work life balance.

You know, when you're in the office.

You kind of draw that line as to when you're drop driving home and there still has to be that same line even when you're working from home.

Home and well, yeah, very similar way. It's an interesting one actually. Joe who works with me, he's just heading off on a sabbatical and things like that. But we reflected the other day that we'd been through this together. He joined me just as it sort of really kicked off lockdown and everything else. We were doing cocktail Fridays, you know, it was just like anything to try and break the cycle sort of thing. But now you know, we sort of, we come back to the pub. It's a bit oh this bit weird, you know, sort of oh other people but as you, you know. And that links into to the return to normality. What is the new normal? The next normal as I've coined it with you guys. How many days a week are you going to be back in? What's the new way of working, would you say?

Yeah, so as an organization we get it that one size doesn't fit all. So it's really. We've looked to the senior leaders of the organization. So the senior leader that runs my particular function is the cfo. So the departments that report up to him, that leadership team had a lot of discussions and it was determined that we would be in the office three days a week. Monday, Tuesday and Thursday. So as a function, you know that folks are in those days, especially as division head, you know, I know what day to schedule meetings with my team but the rest of the organization is going to have different schedule.

Right.

So we still have to get good at working. You know, as I said, where we've got great skills for working in the office, we now have great skills working remotely. So now we have to build up that hybrid muscle. Technology is going to play an important role in that. Having zoom enabled rooms so that our facilities folks are busy with that and whiteboards that folks can see when they're on their laptops at home. So you know, so the next normal is trying to get to this hybrid environment. Employees, employees have embraced working from home. I think they recognize some of the balance that brings, you know, the ability to on Friday really be done by 4 o' clock or you know, throwing a load of laundry and whatever. It just, it brings a little more balance to life. And so there is a strong desire for folks to have some time at home and then. But they appreciate to what it means to be able to engage with your co workers to walk up to someone's desk and just get a quick answer instead of trying to make sure they're online and getting a hold of them. So, so it's going to take some time. It's interesting. So my team officially goes back into the office next week and I was in the office yesterday and we're starting to just bubble up on some of the detail of things we have to think through. There were some issues we hadn't thought about about with certain meetings with, with other areas and how do we do it. And so, you know, I, I say next three to six months is a learning and experimenting and we'll get it figured out just like we did the.

Virtual environment and Well, I mean any, any find that you've given some great tips there actually a nice close to it. But again you, in the previous episode, we, you know, you gave some great tips about, you know, sharing with younger staff members or when you were recruiting people about where you'd suffered difficult times or difficult, you know, it was great advice that you gave. So. So any other clues? I mean that's some great advice just there just working there out for the future. But anything else we're going to leave today with, what would you say?

I think one of the things when I really reflect back, I'll do this truly from a Treasury perspective is the last two years have really been a time for treasury to shine and really show the value to the organization. With all these different twists and turns, what we do every day really came to light and being able to answer questions. So people should take a lot of pride. When you're doing a lot of data gathering and storing information and looking at trends and understanding trends, you just never know when that information is going to become so important and such a key part of decisions being made at very senior levels. So again, a lot of times people don't have their focus on treasury. But I would say in the last two years, with all the various conditions that we have and even what we're currently in, there's a lot of folks reaching out to us with questions on a routine basis that my team is so well prepared to handle. And that's one of, you know, to me, one of the fun parts of being in treasury is just the key insights that we can bring to the organization for senior leaders as they make decisions. So if you're thinking about a career in Treasury, I think the last couple years have really shown what a great job it can be.

Amazing advice. Then Amazing advice. Now you will put Karen's details in the show notes so you guys can connect to an amazing treasurer. Karen, thank you very much for joining me again. It was as amazing as it was the first time out. Really look forward to seeing you soon and thanks very much for invaluable advice. Thank you.

Thanks, Mike.

Hello, it's Mike here again. I hope you enjoyed this week's show. If you did, then maybe you want to follow the show or subscribe, depending on where you listen, whether that's itunes, Spotify or another great place to listen to the show from. It's totally free and means that you'll be the first to see each and every week when we release a new show. And maybe whilst you're there, you could even leave a quick review. Reviews and rating ratings are among the most important metrics for a podcast to effectively rank. And as you can probably appreciate, the podcast is a lot of hard work to produce every week. It'd be amazing. Just take, say, 20 seconds, leave a quick review of my amazing guests and their great career stories. We'd really appreciate it. Thanks very much and I can't wait to see you soon. Advice then. Amazing advice. Now you will put Karen's details in the show notes so you guys can connect to an amazing treasurer. Karen, thank you very much for joining me again. It was as amazing as it was the first time out. Really look forward to seeing you soon and thanks very much for invaluable advice. Thank you.

Thanks, Mike.

Hello, it's Mike here again. I hope you enjoyed this week's show. If you did, then maybe you want to follow the show or subscribe, depending on where you listen, whether that's itunes, Spotify or another great place to listen to the show from. It's totally free and means that you'll be the first to see each and every week when we release a new show. And maybe whilst you're there, you could even leave a quick review. Reviews and ratings are among the most important metrics for a podcast to effectively rank. And as you can probably appreciate, the podcast is a lot of hard work to produce every week. It'd be amazing. Just take, say, 20 seconds, leave a quick review of my amazing guests and their great career stories. We'd really appreciate it. Thanks very much and I can't wait to see you soon. Ra.