Innovation and Optimization in Corporate Landscapes with Lisa Dukes and Chris King

Foreign.

To this week's Treasury Career Corner podcast where I interview treasury professionals about their treasury careers. Each and every week I talk to treasurers about how they build their careers, where they are now, where they see both themselves and the treasury profession going to next. And a special thanks to flywire, our fantastic sponsors. If you've ever wondered whether there was a way to ease your international transaction hassles, they're the guys to talk to. If you follow the link in our show notes, you can see me talking to my mate Greg Levin, their Senior VP of Sales. I get to ask Greg about who are Flywire and how they can help you and your treasury team with your cross border payment headaches. Just follow the link to the interview in today's show notes. And now let's get on with the show. And this week's show is a bit of a first. I'm actually joined by both Lisa Dukes and Chris King, the co founders of Dukes and King. Dukes and King are a corporate finance and risk management firm specializing in end to end innovation optimization in corporate landscapes. Both of them are passionate about using their experiences to support others within the treasury to manage risk, create value, avoid pitfalls and maximize opportunities. Yes, I'm reading from the script, yes I'm making sure. But basically what I've known Lisa for a number of years got to know Chris as well. What we're going to do today is talk about both their treasury careers and then they came together and formed Dukes and King, but also talk about what they're doing to help treasurers out there and everything else. We'll start off with Lisa, then we'll come to Chris and then we'll sort of intersperse between the two. So Lisa, if you would, how did you first start in finance and then later on you discovered Treasury? Over to you.

So I took the decision very early that I wanted to work in finance, which I don't know whether that was a good choice or not, but I took one of the few accounting scholarships immediately out of college to become an accountant and avoid getting into student debt, which looking back was a great decision. As a result, I qualified as an accountant very young. So I quickly decided that a life of an auditor in practice wasn't for me and in my newly qualified years I sought out some of the more niche and interesting roles and spent time across M and A and corporate finance in the UK before moving to the Cayman Islands and working in captive management. Yeah, I enjoyed my time in the Cayman. It was a unique mix of being exposed to new management focus and different nationalities. I like to think it as my working gap years and the bright pink Vesper and Flip flops made working days colourful, to say the least. It was in Cayman where I actually became interested in treasury, although at the time, studying for the ACT was a little bit too logistically challenging. But when I moved back to the uk, I targeted roles with elements of treasury and that's when I became hooked, really.

When you say you discovered treasury then, was it just through local companies or how did you find out about treasury then?

So within captive account management, you're essentially doing everything. You're being the directors, company secretary, the treasury of the captives that you manage, and that's really what piqued my interest. And like I say, I like the niche and treasury is definitely that.

And then you came back and as you say, you start to think, right, treasury is what you want to do. What, what happened from there?

Yeah, so I had a few roles moving back into the uk, but most relevant is when I moved into the pure treasury and corporate finance role, which was focused at Drax, where I was for 13 years. And I was fortunate enough to see the company go through almost every change cycle a company can.

For the listeners who you know, some people in, certainly in the uk, will know Drax, well known, but international audience who are Drax, what do they do, treasury wise?

So Drax are the largest power generator currently sourced through biomass, they produce pellets in the US and they also service business customers in the uk. So they have a number of economic exposures, particularly perhaps in my sweet spot on the FX side, with being a UK company and sourcing fuel from the us, they have quite significant FX exposures and complex corporate finance needs across all aspects, from working capital, insurance, financial risk management, including FX inflation and interest rate management, as well as the financing aspects. So a good kind of covering of Treasury. Yeah.

And you were there for sort of 14. Well, nine. 14 years. 13 years. Talk us through, how did you progress there? Just briefly.

I started as treasury analyst, moved through, I left as Director of Corporate Finance and Derivatives. At the start, there was only myself and the treasurer, an administrator at the time, so a very, very small treasury team. But as Drax grew and the strategy changed and evolved, the. The need to grow the treasury team was evident and when we left, there was quite a significant team. I can't remember the number now, but almost double digits of people covering all aspects, from cash management through to projects and cap structure. So throughout my time at Drax, I covered everything from implementing systems, developing policies, procedures and Controls, but also working on the debt, the insurance, the working capital and the risk management. So really end to end treasury and corporate finance.

At least one of the things I know that you're a big advocate or keen advocate if you like, for the FX Global Code of Conduct and you know, across the spectrum. What does that mean, you know, for listeners out there?

Yeah.

So at the start of 2020, I became a member of the FX Joint Standing Committee, which is chaired by the bank of England. And then following that, I was appointed as the UK private sector representative of the Global FX Committee. And as you say, I'm an advocate and the voice for corporates, amongst other things, in encouraging my fellow treasurers and corporates to understand the benefits of adopting the FX Global Code of Conduct. Where FX is concerned is the G&ESG. It's a great example of how we can scrutin ourselves and regulate ourselves as treasurers. The code has 55 principles covering six key areas and it doesn't look to impose any additional legal or regulatory obligation. It's there to promote integrity and an effective function FX market by applying those code that those principles and key areas proportionately to that each market uses. So I would implore everybody to look into the code and see how it can help your organization.

It sounds obvious, but why is that so important? Would you say to treasurers, is it just about the ethics and everything else about it?

Well, I see there's a few key benefits for corporate signing up to the code. Firstly, it provides a proportional best practice framework that everyone can use and look to without it being regulation. It also helps set aspirations or areas that can be developed or targeted as companies grow or change. And it should also provide a great framework for training new members of the team. Boards and shareholders should gain comfort that the right ethos and appropriate governance is in place. And by sharing your commitment, it evidences a deeper investment in the rigour of your overall FX framework, making it more resilient and adaptive as the company grows. And it also helps level the playing field, giving us corporates a more equal voice in the market. So, yeah, there's a number of benefits. Not only that you're showing that you're invested in governance and giving you a grounding in your policy.

Fantastic. Okay. And that's where you met with Chris and I was going to sort of jump into Chris's background because that's where the two of you sort of got together, got to know each other and everything else. Would that be right?

Yes. Chris probably gives a more eloquent description of Drax as well.

Not at all, not at all. I think you've done very well there. It's brilliant. I mean that. So Chris, if you would again, same question, take us back to the beginning. How did it all start?

So I think so I again, similar traditional finance route, broad finance route, so ACA for a few years and then moved into commercial finance roles at AstraZeneca and McCann Erickson, the advertising agency. But I'd always had a strong interest in financial markets and had a, I suppose a cognizance of treasury, if I'm being brutally honest, didn't really know what treasury meant at that age. And I'll be honest, having spent the last many years in corporate finance, I think it's safe to say that treasury is very different and it means a lots of different things to different people, which is why I find it very fascinating. But so I after that I took my first treasury role at the VITA Group, which is a private equity backed portfolio company, global manufacturing business, which was based in or HQ in the north of England but also in Luxembourg and in Cayman as well. And that was the first, I guess move into treasury and actually it was more enjoyable than I actually contemplated. And so I've kind of been in.

That zone since and with that role and you were there nearly, you know, nine years at Viton, sort of how do you develop and what was treasury like when you started? Because you started back in 2007, so a few years ago now, so quite. Treasury's really evolved a lot, you know, throughout that time.

Yeah. So you probably park into different baskets, if you will. But in that period it's, it's probably vital, is highly leveraged, shall we word 6 times 7x leveraged going into the GFC. And we were one of the first organizations that felt the pain of what highly leveraged means when the economy turns you away. And so whilst that was immensely painful, it was hugely, hugely valuable and rewarding going through a very, very major debt restructure and there's 102 financial institutions involved in that and then working through that process and all that goes with it. Not just the debt but the implications for directors and liquidity management and then the broader risk management. So that was a kind of the first phase. Then there was the group itself was going through P back, so it was going through a divestment phase. So managing that, managing risk. And also whilst at Vita, I entered into an MBO for Canadian business which I guess I would say harnessed my treasury and corporate finance skills and have found that immensely rewarding since and still part of that organization in a different role now. And I suppose that's more broadly around risk management in terms of development. I think the technology has certainly changed and there's a lot more processes that are slicker. That said, they can be challenging to implement. So there's always a lot of pains to get to a efficient process. But I think the, the systems can be a lot slicker than they were certainly when I started.

And then you, you left there as the treasurer and then you then joined Drax again. When you joined in 2016, what was the sort of. Where was Drax in its journey then?

So Drax. So, yeah, I spoke. It was Will Gardner who was the CFO and he's now the CEO, but he spoke to him and he was, he sort of positioned the organization. So it was, you know, it was, in my mind it was a utility company in Yorkshire which, you know, wouldn't have, wouldn't have been in a good match for what I was pursuing. Yeah, but actually, as he articulated it, they would, they were just embarking on a major growth phase and a major transformation phase. And both those coupled with the very unique economic exposures that Drax has given. It's the world's largest biomass plant with huge, huge FX exposures. I mean, when I joined to give a content that the mark to market on the FX portfolio was larger than its market cap. So, you know, treasury mattered and it was pivotal to the organization. And then I think quickly working with Lisa, we found a very, we found our way of operating that was, I guess we operated at high pace in many different routes and found, found it fascinating going through and, and managing the risks and helping the business go through.

That transformation cycle and with that risk management, was that then that sort of. The two of you are sort of. And not speaking for Lisa, but was that a shared love of risk management and all the different complexity, was that where the two of you sort of overlapped?

Yes, I mean, to be honest, it was in pretty much anything that touched treasury, so to speak. So it was whether it was on derivatives or thinking about capital structure in, in different ways, but relevant for Drax. And then you were constantly. Because the organization was so. Is so unique in a good way. You're constantly sort of having to challenge a status quo and your own mindset of how you can approach things and then having somebody who's off a similar ilk of mindset that can, you know, be innovative and, and think through is, is invaluable because one thing I found generally it's more accentuated in treasury is being on your own in a silo doing complex things is great, but it's, it's quite, it's quite difficult unless you can, you know, surface and challenge your own ideas and get people to, to help foster it, you know. And so having that sort of capability to work together and with the wider team as well is, has been super helpful.

And then I don't know if to pass to you or you know, again, my first ever two hander sort of thing with the two of you. I mean, going back to Lisa, then you guys decided to sort of give the microphone if you like, back to Lisa. You both decided to work together or how did it come about then?

Yeah, I think Chris covered it there. The key is that we play to each other's strengths at dk. We say we have complementary differences which many that work with us would probably both laugh at and agree with. We tend to get to the final answer through very, very different route with a bit of friendly debate and quick iteration along the way. But I think the way that we work together really gave us that foundation to be able to move on and share the way that we approach things in treasury, risk management and corporate finance to others. And that was the grounding for dk.

Can you explain what Dukes and King is?

It's many things to many different people I think is the answer. So Dukes and King, we focus on all things treasury derivatives and corporate finance with a particular focus on financial markets and the management of risks. From there we are embedded within organizations as the right hand, I suppose, to the CEO, CFO and the treasury team to fill in their bespoke needs. And that might be very different. For each challenging risk. We use our experience to provide them with either solutions or ways of working which they perhaps haven't explored before, either looking at a specific risk or the treasury as a whole to meet their needs essentially.

And Chris, when we spoke, we had our pre podcast call. You know, we touched on the fact that Lisa's talked about being that extra hand if you like. But we were then exploring about when people should call you and a lot of the people were calling you too late or not too late, but maybe they should have called you earlier because then it'd be more effective. Can you perhaps explain that for the listeners?

I say early is better, but late still good. So that's good. I think that what, what I was trying to, trying to articulate is whether it's Jeep and King or anyone for that matter, just having an extra set of Eyes is always helpful and it's trying to understand time and how to best utilize that for the challenges or risks or opportunities that one faces. And so typically as one looks at the next set of opportunities or risks, then trying to work through what those risks are and what the solutions could be is, can just be aided by having an extra set of eyes who will just challenge that or come up with something potentially different or equally just validate that your route is fine. And so there's, and also, then that also gets, you typically gets a solution that's hopefully more well rounded and therefore can be shared with stakeholders earlier in that sort of. And then you can utilize that time. That said, for those who often were called sort of after events, so to speak, and after volatility or when there's been something that didn't happen as people envisaged and we relish a good challenge and opportunity to try and help them cure and remedy that, it just, it just means it can be a bit more challenging and time consuming than it could have done.

And again, to make it real for the listeners, can either or both of you, maybe without, obviously without naming names, you're not allowed to, but the fact is, you know, a, a practical project or something that, you know, a company has come to you with and then you've gone, right, we can help with this or what's your sweet spot? What you know, you know, maybe to Lisa first. What, what would you say? Typically you get the phone call and they say, can you help us on this? And you know, sometimes no, that's not us. Oh yes, that is definitely us. What, what sort of stuff would you explain it to be?

Probably the weird and wonderful is a good way to summarize it. Obviously we can, and I've got experience in doing the day to day, but perhaps not the best way to use us as a resource. Yeah, it's for those areas where either it's new and challenging or they don't have specific resource or experience to cover it. Now that usually ends up being the more complex nuanced areas of treasury, whether that's in a change environment, whether that's cap structure, financial markets or whatever it is, that's where we can add most value and it's probably where the people we speak to need most additional support, either from a resource point of view or just from a different way of thinking. So we've done a lot of work over the last year in financial markets. As you can imagine, it's been a relatively choppy period making the most of volatility and really challenging people's ways of thinking and the way that they view their risk and hedge that risk, if that's appropriate. We tend to think of things on a more holistic basis and treasury is often very interconnected. So one of the big pieces of work we've done over the last year has touched many areas of treasury through necessity, starting at the financial markets wanting to resolve that risk. But when you pull back on all of the other areas, essentially foreign exchange is just a foreign currency cash flow. So you need to have the underpinnings there to make sure you have them building blocks to manage the risk effectively.

And Chris, coming to you again. Lisa touched on the markets and everything else that a few years ago cash was free, you know, and now treasurers are actually proving their worth and, you know, they're back in it. And now, oh, hang on, we've got this and all the other risks that are coming with it, global financial risk and everything else. When you're looking at the markets, what are you seeing as the things that people should be looking for? Or again, any practical examples, maybe?

I mean, if we're talking right now in the current standpoint, the markets are in a particularly. Markets are always in a peculiar position, but they feel in a particularly peculiar position in that the geopolitical backdrop doesn't feel particularly calm and also the economic backdrop, one could argue, doesn't feel that calm. Yet generally, I don't think I've seen some of the equity markets and broader markets look as more as sanguine as they are and that will feed through to how people feel. And I think there's a piece of beware of that risk because things can. It's amazing how the unknowns come out and things can rapidly change. And so I guess know it's easy to say, but think about the broader sensitivities and the broad risks and at the moment protection in most forms be on interest rates, be it on FX or wider markets, is at pretty cheap levels. And therefore you could probably give some protection at cost or think about that cost mechanism to just give yourself certainty and therefore strength should things develop in a. In untold fashion. So I think it's thinking through, it's that being permanently nervous, sort of. Yeah. As a treasurer of trying to walk, it doesn't. Feeling nervous doesn't mean one should freeze. It means you just need to kind of move forward but be constantly aware.

An eye over your shoulder sort of thing as well.

I was gonna say I live in Sweden and I always think an anecdote always helps. But at the moment it's the winter months and the lake is frozen and so we will walk on ice.

Yeah.

And it's just. And it doesn't mean to say that walking on ice is risky. It's just you need to be. You need to have the products and tools and make sure you be aware. And it's the same. It's the same with a Treasury. When you're walking out, you need to make sure that you've kind of planned and, and thought about, you know, what the what ifs and it's. It'll be different for every organization. But just because the market sanguine doesn't mean that it can't hurt you.

Yeah, Elisa's the same.

Yeah. I think if anything over the last few years or more, actually, if they've taught us anything, it's to avoid complacency. There are a few obvious topical challenges at the minute, whether it's economical or political outlook and the stresses that may have caused, and probably will cause coming down the line. But I think it generally boils down to how to best manage risk in an efficient way focused on enabling strategy and driving value. Regardless of what that is, whether it's DCM markets or liquidity, the list in treasury always goes on. It's very rare that markets stay the same and there's always a risk to manage, but there's also always an opportunity to manoeuvre for. So having the frameworks and toolkits to be ready to move quickly matters a lot. And looking back over the recent years, there hasn't been a moment to pause and take breath. And I think rolling with those challenges and capturing the opportunities is something that's here to stay.

Go back to Chris for a moment and look at the future a little bit with. The great thing is you guys now get to see a variety of different treasuries in a variety of different states. And as you said, lots of them have different. The one thing is that they're all different, they all have different challenges and things like that. But are there any commonalities from some of the treasures you've seen out there that may be some of the common mistakes or you walk in and go right immediately, okay, I can see these two or three things. This is what you need to get a handle on and this is what we recommend or, you know, you said everything's different. Is. Is it literally just walking in every time? It's a completely fresh field.

Yeah. So it's probably backdrop. You know, we, we would tend to deal with. We're not at the Fortune, unlikely to be in the Fortune 500 zone. So where there's a team of 20, 30 people, we're typically, you know, going to be working with you know, more small, smaller Treasuries and, or CFO and a, you know, bespoke Treasury. And I think there's probably two things that I would say the different but, but current or, or consistent across them is the board's appetite or stakeholders. Appetite is often an inhibitor. It's almost beyond the treasury is almost an inhibitor. So it's, it's trying to you know, you got to be careful about pushing sand up a hill. But equally if you are going to be proactive with, with risks, you can't do that in a silo. And so it's just the different ways of making sure your communication and articulating the risks and sensitivities are understood because it's, there's nothing more frustrating than spending three months on a project and the board say well that looks great but we'll just sit on it.

So yeah.

And that you know, so a part of that is the nature of the beast, but part of it is kind of how you communicate with broader, you know, the broader stakeholders and, and, and bring that together. And then the other one is probably technology system efficiency and, and often you'll see treasurers super busy in, in tricky zones but it's, it's how do they kind of free up their time because it, and, and part of that is, is you kind of need whatever, whatever it is as a new cash management system. It's a six to nine month window or whatever that will then enable them to get their head above water. But often they're so busy just fighting fires or making sure that they still and the organization or some organizations kind of won't support that growth that's needed that would make them more efficient and more valuable. And it's a sense of frustration I guess to the Treasuries. But how does the, if I think if the CFOs or the wider organization, you know, understood the implications of it, I think they'd probably be more supportive.

And just on that and probably combines both. You know, if you've done a project or they've, they've instructed a project and then how would you encourage the treasurers to not put it on the shelf? Because as you say, bring them in, do a review, do this. But then actually is it that they've got to sell, sell that to the, their CFOs and the other stakeholders and the benefits and become that salesman. Because I know a lot of treasurers, that's what they're really good at as well. You know, very much relationship management and everything else. In your experience when you've seen, you know, maybe if you look at some of the successes and you've got in they've done this. What has been the key to that? Has it been the treasurer pushing it through or getting buy in from their team or what, what. Again, this is an advice show as well.

It's super hard to answer that because it's different. It's very idiosyncratic and specific to each organization. There'll be many who are listening thinking you're my, my boss just won't. If it costs, they're not going to support it. So, you know, I suppose he's trying to work out what, what, you know, what is the blocker or how many blockers there are and trying to alleviate them where possible and work, and work that through and that might take time and it's, I guess it's the alternative consequences. I suppose at some point it comes a decision for an individual to say, well, if, if I think what I'm doing is the right thing, this is managing risk and the organization doesn't support me, am I in the right organization? Hopefully they won't get there, but that's probably a longer consideration. If you are trying to do good, if you try to do the right thing and it's not supported. So I think it's really trying to work out what it is that's blocking either your immediate stakeholder or the secondary stakeholder. And quite often it's a secondary stakeholder and that can be, that can take time to surface.

Yeah.

So, you know, the, the board might not show openly why they're supportive and it might just be they got burned somewhere else. It has nothing to do with you as an organization or that specific project. They just, they don't fully understand it. So, so I think it's, yeah, having time and keep, keep pushing back on that.

There's also that cost benefit analysis when I've spoken to people as well that, you know, I've spoken to some treasurers, particularly when I'm recruiting them and things that they say, you know, I couldn't get it across the line because they couldn't see the benefit, you know, according to the cost. But then a couple of other treasurers I spoke to recently said it was quite simple. I just said, right, this is the cost, this is the benefit, this is how much we're going to save in man hours. And then when they're able to give it a number, they were like, oh yeah, yeah, do it now, please. I was just like, you know what, I'll be telling you this. But it was sort of. They were having to pivot a little bit I think as well.

Yeah, no, I think that's. Yeah, I think that's perfectly reasonable statement. The difficulty is it's who you position with will have a different value mechanism and their response. Some pitch could be exactly the same to two people and it might not resonate in the same way to those two individuals. But I agree the more granular and analytical it is typically that will resonate with CFOs in terms of that cost benefit and trying to work at that for them to try and work that out in a priority stack. I suppose the only other thing to add just is often projects get pushed back because people are trying to solve for, you know, I would say a nuclear power station effect, I. E. They're trying to get it absolutely 100 perfect. Whereas if you get typically most projects, be careful how you say this but you know, if they, if they get 80, 90% there, that typically is still an improvement and then you can optimize from there. So it's almost two stage projects and that first chunk can often be relatively short timescale, short cost. The second piece can take longer. So I suppose maybe articulating. Is there a way of segmenting the benefit or process to get that and try to not jump too far in one go.

Okay. And then passing across the lease. I was just looking and actually I'm pleased, pleased. I actually did take some decent notes, which I do sometimes. Lisa, when we spoke before you, you talked about the importance of treasurers taking responsibility and actually challenging the status quo and not just, you know, getting on doing it. But she said why are we doing it like this? Why are we challenging that? Is that something you've seen as well and. Well, it is because we talked about when you said it was so, you know, how would you. How would you describe that or coach them on doing it Challenging?

I probably sound like a broken record on this. No, I think it's essential to focus on the basics efficiently. So I typically encourage everyone to be front footed and innovate using what are essentially our core skills as treasurers. It's only by questioning that status quo you pointed out and not just blindly accepting existing policies, controls or decisions that we can grasp opportunities, create value, but also guard against the risks that we're trying to manage. I think everybody should ask what does the policy of the future need to be? Rather than relying on the policies of the past to build those frameworks and toolkits. Because essentially the markets, whether that's infrastructure related to the markets where we operate or our businesses, the world generally is moving slowly so quickly. We need to be mindful of that and essentially plan to be ready for anything and everything. And being a proactive risk manager is key. Risk management's not just something that you do after or at the time of a risk event. You need to start from a place of being prepared so that you can grasp any opportunities and manage those risks. Out.

Brilliant. Wrap that one up. That was lovely. So it wasn't repetitious. It was very good. I really didn't like that. As I say we run these shows about half an hour, 40 minutes so we're not too far from the end. So we'll put your LinkedIn details in the show notes so people can connect to you and find out a bit more about Jukes and King and everything else. I'll come to Chris first then and then Lisa to sort of with the takeaways we've. We had our pre call. I know some of the tips and advice you gave are takeaways for some of the treasury professionals. Again it might be for the more junior treasury guys. We have all different levels listening. So from analyst manager right through to global treasurer. Chris, coming to you. What sort of advice would you give to those. To the listeners today, sort of thing about their treasury careers and treasury in general if you like. And then I'll do the same to Lisa.

I think that I would say is particularly this is probably talking to where you're in a smaller or you know, five person or less treasury team is the nature and the role of Treasuries is very diverse. But the one thing that we do have in. I think we do have in Treasury's fantastic network whether the, you know, EACT or the ACT or. Or just, you know, there's lots of events and actually the very lots of attendance and people tend to talk. So yeah that you know where you quite often. Because typically in an organization what treasury does is quite unique and there's not many people who understand the absolute details of what we're doing and so trying to bounce off ideas with your peers and just. Or just generally around your career in different. Is. Is I think is super helpful and I think we've got a good network that. That enables that. So it's. I suppose that's more Just more of a general comment rather than, you know, technical themes.

And what we'll do in the show notes, we will put links to the. And again, you're both invited to our treasury career corner live. We're doing London in April. In fact, we're doing it globally as well across the us but we're doing events in London in April, in June. And last time we did it, we had 125 people and exactly as you say, a lot of treasurers just coming and just talking to other treasures. It was just like talking treasury for, you know, and there's two hours. The room just never stopped. You know, there's a lot of sharing of knowledge and everything else. I'll pass it back across to Lisa. That was great. And. Or any other words there, Chris? Just before I move over to Lisa, because we want to have Lisa have that last word because we don't get in trouble.

I'm fine.

Okay. Right, there you go. But Lisa, then we'll, we'll let you wrap up the show. So what advice would you give?

I'd say pursue what you enjoy, whether that's in or out of the detail, whether that's in cash management or bespoke corporate finance. Treasury has something for everyone. I'd say be and stay inquisitive. Every day should be a school day, even if that means setting your own exam question. I think looking back, some of my favourite working days have been finding an answer to a bespoke risk. Rather than just accepting existing offerings. Work with who you enjoy working with, whether that's internally and externally. Actually work on building your network, which is super important for all treasurers, particularly those externally and most importantly, own what you do and be prepared to justify your decisions. We operate in an ever moving environment, so being rigid and guided by static reference points could actually increase the risk that you're seeking to manage.

Every day's a school day. Build your network and, you know, actually take ownership of that. Amazing. Thank you both. You've been. Both been amazing. My first double podcast was great. Look forward to seeing you at networking event soon. So thanks very much.

Thanks, Mike.

Thanks.

Thanks, Mike.

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