Investigating 21st-Century Treasury with Winny Li

Hello, it's Mike Richards here from the treasury recruitment company. I hope you're enjoying the Treasury Career Corner. If you are great news, perhaps you give us a rating on itunes or wherever you consume your podcast content. This means that even more treasury professionals can benefit from finding out or by finding out about how treasurers have achieved their career goals. The link to rate our show will list at the bottom of our show notes. And please remember as well, the show itself is as much about you as it is about us. There are specific questions you want us to ask or there's feedback you want to give. Please drop me an email. My direct email is mikeresuryrecruitment.com inventibly enough, but anyway, that's enough from me. Let's get on with the show. Welcome to this week's Treasury Career Corner podcast where I interview treasury professionals about their treasury careers. Each week I talk to treasurers about how they've built their careers, where they are now, and where they see both themselves and the treasury profession. Going to next this week's show, I'm delighted to be joined by Winnie Lee, the group treasurer at ppd. PPD are a privately held group, are actually a leading global contract research organization. They provide comprehensive drug development, laboratory and lifecycle management services. In terms of size wise, to give you an idea, they worked on development programs for 49 of the top 50 pharmaceutical companies, 270 biotech and small pharma companies as well. In terms of size again, 21,000 employees, 92 offices, 48 countries. I know you treasury guys like your numbers, so there you go. It gives you a bit of an idea. There's a quick overview. Winnie herself, she can get through her background a little bit more, but she graduated from Cambridge, then she did her finance career and started with some of the professional accountancy firms before then joining coming through Viacom and then actually joining PPD where she's taken a real active role and set up and developed their treasury function. Again, one thing I will say, Winnie was recently described as having a willingness to up sticks, move to where the action is and have a real strong commitment to the treasury discipline. So well, when he can describe herself a little bit more, that's enough for me. As always, let's get into the show. Winnie, take us back if you would. And you originally graduated from Cambridge and then found treasury later on. How did it all first start for you?

Very interesting question. Certainly. You know, once I graduate from Cambridge University I actually done some SWOT analysis of myself and then trying to find out what my Strengths and my weaknesses and certainly, you know, numbers and working in business finance are my passion. So well actually at the time I have the career opportunities in investment banking or corporate banking as well as, you know, go straight into industry or working for accountancy firm. So I did some research compared to US and UK specifically regarding the finance world and eventually if you want to become cfo, what path should I take? So I decided, you know, to go into accountancy firm, professional accountancy firm. Knowing the fact, you know, have a good qualification is actually outside university as must, you know, to to develop my career further in finance. So then you know, then I actually started my career with Arthur Andersen. I had a wonderful training in Arthur Anderson then also Deloitte. I think really appreciate those time where I able to just you know, fly into any single company doing three to four weeks various different work with them, get to understand various different industry how do, how do they work within the, you know, within entire United Kingdom traveled a lot during that time within the uk that was really a very wonderful experience. And then surely after that, actually you know, when I say surely so good, you know, seven years or so that moved to outside the industry going to Viacom. Viacom.

Winnie, before you move, just going back into that you developed those seven years, tell us, just you know, digging into that, what do you feel it gave you? Because there were some guys listening and those listening and they'll go oh actually this I'm in because I'm in working for one of those big accountancy firms. Before you got to Viacom and you walked to the door, what did it give you? What was it that you know, you say it was a great exposure but describe that a bit more if you would for us.

Sure, no problem. I think in the accountants firm they give you really good solid training. So the training is not just qualification training because we have definitely have, you know, the study leave training which is really, really appreciating for someone who has a juggling work as well as actually technology and theory training. I think that's very important also you would have the training on job training. So you in the beginning you will be actually working on the project, assisting the leaders and also the partners to actually examine the company in detail. But very soon you will find out within year two a group, a team. And so then the training is not just about understanding the organization in very quick fashion but also point out what their risk are and then developing a strategy, how to deal with the issues where possible and as well as how to lead a team. I think it's important to early on you starting to thinking how we get team to work and how they can interact with each other as well. Actually bringing something in and how to interact with organizations Senior management group because the people you tend to talk to are fairly senior staff in organization. So that gives you the all round communication social as a leadership skills from those training.

That's relatively early stage in your career. So you're relatively young as it were. And then you're talking to CFO CEOs. How did you have that confidence to deal with them? What gave you that? You know, hang on, I can do this.

I think a you need to believe in yourself. Believing what you do is for the good. Then also prepare yourself before you actually ask any question. Do your groundwork. The most complaints you will get is actually people always think especially nowadays are working for organizations. Seeing various different consultants and authors coming to the organization. The often complaints is they don't know about my company. So I think you need to spend the time to research looking through the part or the paper, looking through the information about organization. Get to know the people who you're talking to. Yes, you might spend more time, but more time you spend is so valuable and creating more effective communication later on. As soon as the CFO and CEO understand where you're coming from and you already done some groundwork to know who they are and what question you raised has stands, then they actually give you respect. Then that respect actually resurface and then you starting to have a very good working relationship. Very early stage. Actually I dealt with a very difficult client. Every single audit manager has been rejected and I managed to work through with that particular categorized as difficult client. I managed to get what we do and then actually get award for it. I think I would attribute that to the good groundwork in the beginning and spending more time. I think that's so important in your.

Research and really understanding a client before you just walk in and I am here. You know, it's actually this is what I know about you already.

That's right. Exactly. Yes.

And as you said, you then made the move to Viacom. How did that come about? Why Viacom?

Viacom obviously I think is more head down to looking for people for Viacom. Viacom is obviously one of the biggest media company in the world. The industry is very exciting. I went into, you know, internal audit and internal consulting role which was very appealing to me. I liked the international travel aspect of it. It's the most changing but it's the most exciting part of the job where I get to travel 30 something countries in two, three years. Literally one point I leaving in the summer, come back to England after Christmas, one job to the other, which is not suit for everyone. But that was exciting for me. And then also I learned so from that business where if I say in Alpha Anderson Deloitte, I learned industry experiences, expertise, where in Viacom I learned international skill set and then went into various different countries. Vietnam, Thailand, Denmark, you know us, all sorts of different countries. And every single places I do go tend to stay for three to four weeks. So you actually try to learn how to deal with people in different culture using different language. And I try try to also utilize some of my language skills. And then I get to a point now traveling is one of my most desirable thing because that experience I learned during that time.

And if other listeners are in a similar situation, they're having to sort of jump from one country to another within their roles or within the things that they're doing. What tips would you give them? When you go to one day you're in Vienna, then a month later as you say you're in Thailand or something like that, what your tip not you know, what are you packing as your travel kit, but more for you as a person, what's your personal travel kit, as it were.

I think you need to have an open mind. Don't obviously rely on what you read in the books, what this country, what people like, that might be helpful. But I think you need to discover for yourself also what your possession of a country might be One way once you get there, you realize might not work as what you say, what you potentially see. So you need to have a very much open mind for yourself. And then also you need to be more flexible with your way of approaching things. So for one I can, you know, illustrate examples. For example, if we actually making client recommendations in majority country, you talk to the CEO CFO in a private meeting, you go through all your findings and going through that. And then for example in Japan we will find you will find a classroom full of staff. Every single member you interviewed together, the CEO CFO. You put an effort entire classroom feed 100 people you going through the findings. So that's a completely different experience. And then you have to deal with it. You actually present the issue. As long as you've done your homework right, you can illustrate examples and show them why your recommendation is what they are and what sort of risk you're trying to dealing with. As long as you got solid evidence and where the reason are coming from. And also what you're trying to illustrate is something to help them as soon as they understand that. I think that's a common language for all cultures. No matter. Some culture might be aggressive towards your recommendation, some cultures might be more receptive. But as soon as they understand what you're doing is helping them, then they actually on your side, you will get the buy in.

So it sounds like research and the actual term itself is really in your blood because research, not just the stuff you've done when you're an accountancy and then the most recent role, the role there at Viacom, but also then you've joined a research company. This is, this is you through and through. From the sounds of it.

You just like, just love this stuff.

You're like, yeah, I love this research. How did you then come about hearing about PPD if it wasn't for your research? Obviously.

True. A is a personal choice. We decided family choice, want to decide to move to Cambridge. B is the headhunter actually looking for, you know, for people coming from London to Cambridge. So PPD is amazing company located in Cambridge, United Kingdom, but is actually truly global company. Also. I see the potential of the company. At that time when I joined, we had about 5,000 employees and personally I involved in many development in the organization including organic growth. We set up various different organizations around different part of countries. I personally involved in that merger, acquisitions and various different massive deals we actually work into. At the time PPD was listed company as well. So also I helped the company to become delisted. So all this process going through was actually tremendously useful, especially with my experience with accountancy firm as well as Viacom, both in industry understanding as well as the international understanding. Then working for a global company that was almost like a perfect match.

And you walked in the door and you came in as the treasurer. But it was a treasurer of what? What was the sort of treasury set up when you sort of opened the office went ah, is it just me or you know, what was the situation?

So when I first come to ppd, I was coming as finance. So I was working as finance director. And then the role we, because we were listed company, we had lots of cash. And then my role was more basically finance director, working on the merger acquisition, leading on various different regions finance functions. And then 2009 we actually acquired two fairly big Chinese company and I was involved in that due diligence, then also acquisition, then integration. So the company actually moved me to China for a year. So I spend one year literally actually moved the entire family to China for one Year as a second helping out for all the integration, get everything on board, everything truly integrated. 2010 I come back to UK. We actually preparing for become delist the company and again help the company to delist the company. During the entire delisting process. We recognized we do need to set up a separate Treasury Department. In the beginning the Treasury Department will be really one quarter of my full time role. So it's really my job title from Director comma Finance becoming Director comma Finance and Treasury. So then begin looking after the probably cash liquidity and investment and merger acquisition. Then more and more you realize you need to look more about the debt and how to effectively working on PPD's capital structure. We then exploring how to set up the Treasury Department. At that time, 2010 or so I started to attend ACT conference and also gain further treasury qualification for the ACT. And that was a great experience too because I was able to take the opportunity talking to various different treasury professionals and people literally doing similar role to me or actually already been doing the role for some time. And I was actually seeking their advice saying what their organization treasury organization look like and what the team, you know, how many people in their team, how do they make up their team? What is the difference between Finance and Treasury? How should you actually draw the line in between finance Treasury? So that was really a great discovery. Back to your research. I liked my research. So literally done the research, you know, through theory, learning technical skills, but as well as talking to people just to us.

There you were going through a delisting. I was going to ask, you know, for the listeners why delist and what effect you know then impacted that have on. As you say, you're doing your research on how to set up a Treasury, but you're a listed company and you look at some listed companies in their treasuries. This is the setup. But you were delisting. What was driving that then the impact on, you know, the treasury you set up from there, was it quite different or what did you find?

So when we before the delisting process, PPD is a very effective listed company and we actually have a lot of cash. Well in some ways a cash generator doing very well. Our founder who owns most of the shareholding decided to retire. He wanted to spend more time with his family, which is very much understandable. So then that's the whole D listing process coming through in terms of impact to the finance and Treasury. Mostly our experience was we realized we'll be instead of having lots of cash, we will have probably a lot of Debt and how to manage the debt, how to fund the company and how to do the capital structure has become more important. Hence we actually decided to set up the Treasury Department to have a focus on issues like those because previously we didn't have those issues.

And so then how did you structure up treasury going forward?

Yes, very good question. That's what we tried to get to. So I done lots of this discovery with other people. We realized looking outside of ppd the Treasury Department looks completely different for different organization. I've spoken to many, many treasurers. In fact some of the companies might have 2, 300 employees in Treasury Departments where others may have won and outsource absolutely everything. And most organ organization obviously between three to 15 employees. And then really and also how they design is very different and they seem to have a slightly different focus. So that's the time I actually really triggered me thinking more. I think I need to take inside look what PPD finance organization already look like, what the people strengths and their weakness are. Then at the end we actually customized Treasury Departments for PPD itself. Look through what we are doing well, where we actually can be enhanced. What is the gap, how to fill the gap. So hence actually I would say the Treasury Department in PPD is somewhat different to others but suits us perfectly. For example, how they work differently. We got credit control reporting into treasury. So then that make treasury very much client facing. So we literally looking after all the aspects between cash in to cash out and all the liquidity in between. And also debt structuring, capital structure, risk management all become one. So this actually we don't have a gap. Some of the organization treasury may not be client facing. So they may not see the issue before they become an issue. I think we're, we're blessed to structure the way actually we decided to structure make a lot of sense for us.

So you have a sort of life cycle of cash that as you say, if it's credit control right the way from inception of cash coming into the group, passing through treasury and everything else, you look after it in that entire life journey, is that right?

Yes, absolutely right.

Where do you see when you're doing that and when you're putting in place those processes because you've got this new team, a new department and everything else. What has been critical to you? Have you thought right, let's get this all systematized, let's get everything else. Everyone's talking to technology and everything else. But what has been your ethos? What's been your sort of driver motivation as it were?

Important, very important early stage to set your treasury objectives and what you try to achieve. So I usually obviously leaning on some of theories I learned but also very much customized to the PPD needs. What gaps that we try to fill and we make really a brainstorm. You put everything on the paper what we try to achieve in treasury, what value we're adding. Then actually try to look at the employees. We obviously had some employees previously working in Finance. You know, why the finance function. We have them coming to Treasury Group and examine what they did before and what they actually about to do, what things they should be doing, what things they shouldn't be doing. We have to do a quite clear line and when the credit control came into us and there are certain tasks from my mind is not quite a control number, not completely Treasury. So I had to actually negotiate with various different departments to say okay I keeping this part and taking another part. But actually you had to take this part because that is not quite client facing customer driven activities as more accounting for example. So we had to make it quite clear and in terms of system wise we obviously had deployed and then developing our treasury management system and having that system processes embedded to the treasury function. And that also helps to define some of the gray areas. You potentially say there are always going to be some gray areas between Finance and Treasury. But we try to make it as clear as possible. And at the end of the day even you actually finish defining everything. Which I always say to my team is actually we are obviously very lean, a highly functional team, but we are all within the PPD and Thai Finance team. And the treasury group sees the, you know, sees the process from beginning to end. We often see the end of a conveyor belt, what things come out to be right or wrong. And I want my team to be value adding and thinkers. If something is actually at the end we see is wrong. We have to schedule various different process improvement calls to actually talk through wider group to say, you know, we noted this issue, what are the root cause of these issues and have them addressed. What what I try to build is actually might be slightly different to some of the treasurers you interviewed. We try to have I would say a group of journalists who are good thinker be able to talk to people effectively and get people working collaboratively and effectively together. So that's what my goal is. I see some of the treasury individuals out there become more specialized. That's not what I try to build. So ppd, Treasury Department, I'm trying to get everyone to work obviously work in different areas but they all rotate way working and then they also learn from each other. So the end of day they all can become great Treasury Manager, Treasury Associate Director, directors and treasurer one day in different organizations.

It's interesting. Sorry, just one of the things you said there. I recently interviewed a senior treasury professional for this role we're recruiting at Nike, the Senior FX Director and one of the I said what would you say is your key to success? And I think very much reflects in what you said there is. He said don't leave any small mistakes behind. And he sort of explained it, he said he's got a team and that when he talks to that team, he said to these guys there's a small mistake, let's deal with it now together, collaboratively, get it sorted. Rather than go oh hang on, we'll get rid of that for now or hide that he said, because pretty soon with a couple of iterations it becomes quite a big problem. He said, but before that just let's deal with it together as a group. And it sounds like you've got that particularly focused with your sort of cross selling with internally and making sure people can, you know, cover for each other and things like that. Is that right?

That's correct, yes, absolutely. Because we will find PPD finance being a very well oiled machine and I would say 80% of processes covers, you know, what was it actually the process that we build deals with 80% of the of the issues and day to day but we often find treasury would be doing the ad hoc issues which is the 20% where the issues come about. But the more you spend time to deal with those issues then actually the time will be spent not just dealing with the tactical issues but you're more going to spend more time on the strategic projects and the issues and planning.

And that leads us nicely into the future Treasury. What are you seeing coming at you down the line? Again? On a few of the podcasts recently we've been talking that treasurers very much seem to have this sort of role of not futurists but you know, the CFO's pushing the treasurer in the way, in a nice way and say look, can you assess this technology or can you assess this new thing coming at us? Can you help us or can you filter this? Be the filter for me if you like the cfo. Are you seeing that as part of your role or what are you seeing coming at you?

I would say one of the major achievements did as a Treasury relatively new treasury group nine years or so in ppa. One amazing thing we Did Apart from merger, acquisition and expanding the company worldwide is actually the automation we've been bringing into the organization. I'm actually very much a fond of the technology. Yes, there are risk and there are potential issues on any technology you might be deploying. But the automation the way we actually the modern technology the benefit is huge. For example, all the things we build in terms host to host payments and how the treasury management system working within the organization. We actually throughout the years I brought in many many different automations into the organization. Personally I was the one negotiating with the technology department get them to move those automation project in the higher priority list. The benefit is vast because we transformed from nine years ago where we actually how we enter payments to banks how to get release. Today majority of the payment 80% are host to host all the controls built in the ERP system that gone through is actually personally I do think treasury being effective the treasurer needs to understand technology. Use the technology to bring your organization into 21st century. So in fact my CFO doesn't need to ask me that question. I already doing them for them. And I continue looking all the conferences and all the seminars I go to. I'm the one fairly vocal talk about the benefits of technology and how to manage the technology and obviously how to identify the risk as well. But embrace 21st technology bringing to us. There are lots of companies out there bringing new things. And also the banks are bringing the new things and some of the banking organizations and institutions also inviting me to their technology development group. From the corporate perspective, I truly like those initiatives because we should work together with no matter is actually a bank or technology company or regulators and bringing more technology to help our day to day make our processes more automated. And then the human will say would be able to actually how to think about how to manage automation technologies and how to think more strategic aspect of our job rather than focusing more on the tactical. So personally, you know, I think technology is the future for treasury and we should embrace more. We should do more. And then giving my background traveling around the world I often looking at technology deployment in various different countries and different continents. You will find I think the UK is a little bit lack behind. And there definitely need to be more investment and more corporate thinking. More deployment of new technology and understand how to use them. My thinking don't be afraid. We should actually embrace the change, embrace the new things. You know, come at us and also stay young. Right?

Why do you think we're behind? Is it because UK market is a late adopter or is it just we're afraid of the effort it takes or what do you put it down to that we're not early adopters and not taking on and being at the frontier of taking on the that stuff. What do you put it down to as it were?

I think it's a good question. I think you know capital investment is always the first fundamental block. The second thing is actually you know, technical skill sets I think in that's definitely my personal view. I'm sure we are developing more and more but personal view is actually there are shall we say less of a younger generations, you know, go into technology sector and then to look for those opportunities where other countries might be doing a bit better. So it's a shame but I can see the government as well as the schools starting to looking at STEM programs and trying to embrace technology is something we cannot avoid and also cannot be afraid of. I think the more and more emphasis would be on the sustained programs will help the country United Kingdom to be able to look for opportunities like that.

That before we back up today and just come back to your career and things like that. One of the things I was going to mention to the listeners is that both Winnie and I are on the speaking well we're both speaking later on this year at the Group Treasurers Exchange. We're actually side by side on the speakers roster so you can meet both of us and I'm looking forward to listening to Winnie. And what will you be speaking about there? What was your focus?

When I'm going to be in this treasury function I will be talking about technology and then. Yes, yes and also talking try to be the champion to get various different corporate to think about technology change and think about how we can deploy technology to bring our country into and also all various different corporates we're working in to 21st century and I've got to.

Say that wasn't a setup. That was actually quite nice because it was just more I didn't know which area you were going to cover. So there you go. So come and listen to Winnie and I'll be doing the treasury career corner line. So similarly live version of this podcast where I talk to treasurers such as Winnie and stuff but I've got on the show today now looking back at you, you've had this great career. You've got yourself to the treasurer position and you know along may that continue but if someone then looks and again we'll put Winnie's connection to her LinkedIn profile in the show notes connect there if you're it's appropriate things. But actually looking further than that and looking back at you, someone else looks at you and they go, actually that's a career that I want. I'm working. They might be in working for one of the big four, as it were, and say, actually I'd like to follow in her footsteps. What's the one piece of advice or overarching advice as we wrap up today's show that you'd tell someone? Obviously I think research might be in there. Obviously we know that that runs through as a strong bit of yourself. But you know, what else would you say?

I would say if you like to make history and do draft actions and becoming value adding to your organization. Yes. Then the treasury definitely is a career to be for you in treasury every day we're facing not just your internal, you know, potential organization issues. We're facing political environment change, economic environment change. You have to be so adaptable to the situation you're in and build something truly, really value adding to your organization and make history. Then, you know, come to work for Treasury.

What a great closing line. That's it. Make history, come into Treasury. Thank you very much. I think we'll get a T shirt with that for the conference. That'd be great. Make history, get into Treasury. Winnie, that's been fantastic. Really enjoyed today's show and thank you for your contribution there. And I look forward again. We'll publish some links to when you can see Winnie and myself and the conference later on this year in the uk but you know, I'm sure you'll see us on other stages as well. But all that remains for me say is thank you very much for your time today.

Thank you.