Key Insights from the Global Treasury Salary Survey

Foreign welcome to this week's Treasury Career Corner podcast, where I interview treasury professionals about their treasury careers. Each and every week I talk to them about how they've built their careers, where they are now, where they see both themselves and the treasury profession. Going to next, let's get on with the show. In this week's show, we're doing some something a little bit different. We're going to feature the team at the treasury recruitment company. We're going to discuss our latest global treasury salary survey. So, morning, everyone.

Morning, Mike.

There you go. So, first of all, we're going to talk about why we do the survey, what the results have shown us and where do we go from here and why do we bother actually doing the survey? It's quite simple really, because you, our clients and candidates, the people listening today, hopefully you want it, you need it and you deserve it. Every client or candidate that I think, you know, me and the team we talk to wants to know about their salaries and they want to have a survey that just focuses on treasury because there are many, many others out there, they're just so general, they focus on finance, but ours is 100% treasury focused. Ours is global, covering from the US throughout the UK and Europe and then right the way across into Australasia. And it's from real numbers, not just crazy ranges. I hate those surveys which say, I saw one actually yesterday that says a treasurer role was paying 93,000 to 240. And I'm like, what does that mean? That means nothing. It doesn't really help someone if they're trying to benchmark themselves.

Absolutely. And Mike, what about the other actual surveys that are out there, though?

Well, as you say, Craig, many of them aren't, I would say, actual surveys. They're more recruitment fishing trips, if you like, that have been created to generate some sales leads rather than offer the value the guys listening want. We wanted always to have a Treasury survey that adds value. It's great piece of research and really enjoy doing it. Now, there are other ones. There's one in the US which is a great piece of analysis, but it takes so long and it only just focus on the us, Whereas ours is global and ours is a snapshot of the salaries of treasury professionals throughout the world. From we in the latest survey, we've done 530 treasury professionals. And in 2022, the survey is going to continue to evolve and grow. So we knew we had to get the initial results out there recently and we did it. We managed to get it over the line, sort of Thing that's. That was a key thing for us.

What's it been like on top of the day job, though, Mike? That's why I think we do want to know.

It's been brutal. It's been a lot of hard work for, well, the other guys on this podcast with me. The service free, but it also means that it's not sponsored, so it's not a paid activity. So on top of a day job of recruiting treasury professionals like you guys. But I believe it's also very important to provide this information to everyone. So I'm going to go through the survey a little bit. We're going to talk to the team about the survey itself. So let's chat to Carl Stevens, our Treasury recruitment associate. He. He helps me, bless him, sort of assess the survey, go through all the graft of it. And, yeah, that was when he joined the business. I don't think he really realized what he let himself in for. So, Carl, what's your role and involvement in the survey and helping me, would you say?

I've only recently joined the recruitment company, Mike. It was a real learning curve for me at first, to be honest. As you know, I help correct any mistakes that have been put through on.

The survey and you and I assess that, don't we? We sort of talk it through. It's not just me saying, oh, you know, changing. What do we look at, would you say?

So first of all, we look at something, say, salary that they're on, do find that some people do put themselves down as group treasurers when they're really on, like 60K. And for us, we can't have them numbers kind of fluctuating through the graph because it would just mess up the whole salary survey results itself, Carl.

Now we've released version one of the survey, it's been a labor of love, hasn't it? You know, we said, just get it out, get it out. Craig was like, oh, no, we need to make it better. But I was like, no, we need to have a survey out there. What are your thoughts? You know, you've been helping me with it as well, to be honest.

I think it's really, really impressive for version one, it's really, really hit the spot there. I think there's a few rough edges, as we know, but as we go to version two and version three, our goal is to hit 1,000. We're currently on 530 and we're fast approaching 600. In the beginning or so of 2022, we'll reach that 1,000 mark.

Amazing. Thank you there, Carl. So a few bits about how we put it together without going into specific numbers, as it were. So again, take part. Treasurysalary.com and we're going to keep on updating it. It's a snapshot, if you like, every six months we're going to get people to update the figures. So as it grows and grows, it's always going to be as accurate as it was on day one. So let's go on to the amazingly eloquent Joe Fawcett, who never uses one word when 18 will do. As many of you find out as you talk to him on the phone. Either I'm going to have lots of podcast editing or I'll interrupt a few times. I don't know. We'll see. Joe, you focus on the junior market and particularly what has the survey been telling us? You know, surveys going up and down post pandemic or where do you see the future? So over to you and I'll chip.

In with questions in terms of the salary aspect of things, you know, are they going up and down sort of post pandemic? I would say there has been a slight increase, but nothing too dramatic. If anything, the most interesting thing I think I've seen is jobs outside the city are starting to match London salaries in order to entice people kind of out of yet out of London to kind of work in, you know, recently working on a role in Kent, things like that, as kind of some of the most interesting things I think I'm seeing with the salaries.

Can I interrupt there and just ask, but do you think that's, you know, we are going to talk in the show in a moment with Craig about working from home and, and the fact is that you don't have to be based. I recently, as we know, place the treasurer, he's based about 100 miles, if not more from London. But the fact is his job is based in Under Bridge and he's only going to be in one, one day a week. So he has to do one journey and it means it's leveling up across the uk for instance. Is that something you think is you're seeing now?

I would say absolutely. I think hybrid working is pretty much the norm now. Anything that doesn't incorporate hybrid working, I mean, you better have a pretty good excuse as to why you're not doing it. And to be fair, I have come across companies that have decided not to implement it, but there are good reasons for it. On the whole, hybrid working is what people are doing now. It is sort of Cutting down on costs. And I think a lot of people I speak to would say I would take that role on in London or in that slightly obscure location. But if I'm going to have to travel in five days a week, I'm going to need that extra two, three grand a year. But I think, you know. Yeah, without that it is saving costs for businesses and employees alike.

And we got very international audience listening to the podcast. One thing we would say is Katie on later we'll talk about the international market. She helps me on the US and overseas throughout Europe and things. Obviously Joe's got a bigger focus on the uk, which is not a bad thing, but it just means that, you know, we've got a good snapshot of the UK and then other areas and one of the other things that's happened with this year's server say we've had a lot more junior candidates in the past, whereas it's a bit lower this year. And actually I've been sort of giving Joe the odd nudge or two and a few other bits.

Yeah.

Why do you think we haven't quite had so many take up at that stage? So if you're an analyst or you know, treasury assistant or manager listening today, take part. But Joe, why do you think that is?

To be honest, in short, Covid. You know, I think Covid has sort of messed things up a lot in that respect. But I also think these junior candidates who were just in roles during a very difficult time and they were just grateful to have a job and I think that's really all it was. You know, I think they do kind of feel that they owe a lot of loyalty to their companies that sort of kept them throughout Covid and I just don't think they're, they're sort of. Now, I appreciate our survey. It is, it's not for us necessarily, it's for the candidates, but I just don't think people at that level are even interested because I don't think it's a case of time because like you say there is a, there is a really good sort of participation from the more senior level. I think it is just a case of these people are not looking for anything. They're happy they've got jobs, they're happy they've had jobs over Covid and they're just not looking for anything else at all right now, especially around this time of year, sort of Christmas time anyway. But yeah, I just think they're happy to be where they are. Surveys are just a distant sort of thought for them. As far as they're concerned.

Wow, amazing input from Joe there. Thank you very much, sir. We're going to move on to the lovely Katie Hardy shortly. But before we get to Katie, we're going to come to Craig Perkins, who leads our UK division. Craig, we've got the numbers, we have the facts and figures. You focus on sort of treasury manager through to group treasurer and helping me with those assignments and working on it together what's been going on at that level in the market.

Thanks, Mike. We certainly do have the numbers on the end of the survey that I deal with, as Joe mentioned a moment ago, in terms of what that looks like. In fact, the majority of the participants in this year's salary survey fall exactly in between that level of the market. Meaning that the data behind the results paints a really accurate picture of that bigger picture here, especially in the uk. You must consider that although we are seeing slightly higher salary increases, I do think there are industry specific factors that have made an impact to this and not all of them are positive, unfortunately. Give you an example. So if we look at another factor, we take the salary and we break it all down. If we look at bonuses in the last year, largely due to, as Jode mentioned, you know, Covid, being really honest now, we have seen bonus increases within certain participants who work within clients such as FMCG or pharmaceutical markets. Then on the flip side of that, you know, we are seeing very minimal to no bonuses being paid out to those harder hit, you know, such as like travel and transportation. And we know that you know firsthand from, you know, evening supporting clients in that regard and other ones we've spoken to.

Then also we, you know, Joe there talked about, you know, different things throughout the country, you know, and traveling, you know, particularly you focus on the UK markets and again let's, we do cover the US so don't worry guys, but it's more, you know, but when you've seen treasury professionals, if you like, in around London, you know, is there a difference now or is it sort of evened up sort of thing?

Yeah, it's a really, really good point actually. You know, to be fair, as we see from the results, Mike, you would typically expect treasury professionals in around London to be on those kind of higher salary bandings and more attractive bonuses and what that would look like than their peers that are further afield. However, if I'm being honest, certainly the trends are now showing, as Joe had mentioned, are bridging off that gap. There are a couple, to be fair, very key factors that are likely the case in that, I know we touched upon it briefly earlier and there are even additional ones, but to be fair, that in itself could be a very much a standalone podcast episode, which probably will be worth going into more detail on.

Yeah, we'll do it later in the year maybe. And you know, we were working on the survey, revising it and evolving it, and one of the key things you sort of asked me about was, Mike, can we, you know, ask about hybrid working, working from home? And it was how many days you as a, an employee were working in the office, how many days your employer was asking you, but how many days you actually wanted in the office? Three different questions. What results are you seeing from that within the survey itself?

Yeah, it does, to be fair, it paints a really interesting picture. You know, overall, you know, first and foremost, you know, it's pretty clear that hybrid working is no longer that dirty word that it used to be in the world of Treasury. I mean, you used to say to me, Mike, especially when I joined, you know, when I joined the company in the meantime, since then, in the past, if you asked that five years ago, you know, in an interview what the working from home policy was bit, you know, would be, that'd be, you know, a pretty sure fire way to shut you out of your presence. Yeah, yeah. So it's, you know, offering hybrid working pretty much is as essential as food and water now, you know, when getting candidates interested in an opportunity, you know, alongside what's the role, what's the salary, what's the physical office location? And people are also asking, you know, what that work from home policy is. And I bet there's absolutely no shame in doing that.

And if people are, you know, looking at the next year as you move into 2022 and you're an employer, you know, what are they, you know, what should people be thinking about if they are recruiting?

Yeah.

So, I mean, based on those results, and I would strongly encourage those looking to expand their teams or looking to restructure in 2022 and to have a really accurate response, you know, ready for those questions. Being honest, Mike, we do still hear that phrase so much. We're flexible. And to be honest, that rarely kind of cuts anymore. People want more concise answers because that's what other people are giving them. And if, you know, you're, you're having to weigh up and benchmark yourself, what opportunities are going to be right for you, and one is going, oh, we can be flexible. And the other goes, you know, three days guarantee from home, that's what's going to look like for the entire team. It's going to be, you know, strategic in terms of what it looks like. You paint a picture earlier on for yourself. What opportunity is going to be more of interest to yourself. You know, I would also recommend those interviewing, you know, to not be afraid of asking that in an interview. I would say that's even more important, you know, ideally, and that you be giving those answers up front where possible. And I know me and the team, you know, always strive to be doing that.

Amazing. Thank you, Craig, for those great insights. If you're looking for your next role in the UK, reach out to any of the three of us. LinkedIn links will be in the show notes, but also you're looking for a role further afield. You'll see my details, but you'll also see the Lovely Katie Hardy's LinkedIn details so you can connect to Katie. Katie is our international consultant. We're going to roll over to her and actually ask her a bit more about some of her observations within the salary survey and I'll pitch in with some of my own questions there. So, Katie, we've done the survey, you've seen some of the results. You and I recently did a conference with New York and we were talking internationally and we were then across into Helsinki. What have you seen? Tell us about your observations about a salary survey.

Hi, Mike. Thank you. If we look at Europe and usa, both markets, let's just say recovered well post Covid and the number of opportunities within those areas has definitely risen. Europe was on the back foot compared to other markets due to Covid vaccination, so it's very much a bit slower in terms of recovery. Salaries and compensation stayed stagnant throughout 2020. However, I think if you look at the results now, it's clear that there has been a rise and we will see this continue throughout 2022.

And have you seen that this is at all levels or you. I know that we've started to see a bounce back with Treasury Ops. You know that level, Treasury Ops managers, we're getting lots more roles through because people move around because there are more jobs at that level. There are less treasurer jobs at the senior end of the pyramid. But are you then starting to see that following suit? Was it just slower like it uses? There's only certain number of big top jobs or where's it coming from and how is that affecting salary?

Definitely the operational jobs, as you've mentioned, I think across both the states and Europe and further afield, there tends to be that Mid management level, where there tends to be more jobs available at the junior end of the market. We've seen that it's slightly more candidates that are looking, but not as many jobs flowing through. And at sort of treasurer level, I've been surprised specifically across Europe that there have been more senior opportunities over the last two, three months, whereas before it's always been maybe one or two a year. So it's definitely changing a lot.

Recovering is a key thing that you and I have talked about. Any particular geographic anomalies but bumps up because again, I talked in other parts of the podcast about, you know, Switzerland. We used to do a Swiss survey and that was one stage going bonkers, but then that sort of calmed down. I know pre pandemic you were doing two or three roles out there and then that sort of got on hold for a while. But then you've been doing a lot more stuff in Germany. Where are you seeing the hotspots and is that then impacting on salary?

Generally across the salary survey, we had a good mix in terms of the states, the different states across America. In Europe, it's always been quite buoyant for us in Luxembourg and Belgium. However, this year I've seen a definite boost across the Netherlands and I've spent many a conversation and many hours talking to various clients about salaries this year because this is where the majority of the roles have been for me. A lot of the clients I've spoken to are back in the 2019 zone with their salaries and their compensation, whereas they now have jumped and people want to know what is the market right now, how far has it moved? So they're having to compare it to 2019. And I think, you know, what's become very clear across all areas is that all dimensions of the total compensation is more important than ever. I recently had a few roles across Prague, for instance. And you know, when you talk to candidates and you do a lot of research, the basic salary hasn't moved and isn't going to move. But there's been a lot more focus and demand on better benefits out there. Whereas if you look at other areas across Europe and the states, it's both the salaries and the benefits that are important. And I know that Craig sort of touched on the whole hybrid working. But again, the salary survey across Europe and the States as well focuses on that being one of the key elements now in people's decisions to move. So, you know, 64% of the people have put that down as one of the main considerations. The maximum amount of days that people are prepared to go into an office now is three days a week. And then if we look even further into that, you know, we in the salary survey have also looked at how happy people are in their role, because these days it isn't just about the money side of things, it's about having the opportunity. It's about, as you get more senior, having the added responsibility. It's in general being happy within your role, which isn't just money. There's a lot of elements and factors that involve that. Take into account that happiness about being valued in your job is just as important as having that extra two or three thousand pounds.

And you and I also talked about one of our clients was wanting to benchmark some of the salaries. We said, that's fine, just do the salary survey, we can share the results. And they're, oh, well, not sure about that. And so, look, get one of your team to do it and we're happy for them to share it with you. And you've started to see that yourself. You mentioned it the other day that one of your clients had, you know, then effectively benchmark their salaries because they got like two or three of the team to do it. And then it was like, you know, it was great. They could see where it was. And you know that that's something you're seeing as well, that clients are using it for.

Absolutely. And I think it goes back to the point I made that because we've had a year where nothing has changed. We don't, you know, clients who are looking for new people within their team don't have up to date data to benchmark against. So actually, that's why we sing our praises a little bit. That's why the salary survey that we're doing has been launched at exactly the right time, because next year, people are looking at the structures of their team. You know, this year it's been relatively fluid, with natural attrition within roles, but some new headcount as well. But I think over the Next sort of six months, as we go into 2022, people are looking at what does the structure of their treasury team look like when looking at that? They're having to put budgets together and they need up to date information about what they should be pitching, those salaries, those benefits, and what is the competitive hybrid working solution.

Exactly. Well, we're going to move on. Thanks, Katie, for amazing answers. And as we said before, it's time for you guys to get your own back and you can ask me a few. I know that we've looked at these not overly scripted, but just some of the Q A that people have actually asked me about in the past. So Craig, what did you, what was the first one you were going to kick off with?

Yeah, thanks, Mike. We know you are very passionate about the survey, really passionate. But can you explain, you know, why. Why is it such a passion to you?

I think there's a few reasons. One of the key ones is 25 years ago I was, I can't believe it, but I was working for a company that produced a. A quasi salary survey and it was a work of fiction. My boss came to me one day and said, oh, you know, what's the lowest salary? What's the highest salary for this level of treasury analyst? And that was the survey. And every day they then and each year they just re ran the same survey. And I was like, oh God, this is, yeah, very frustrating. Check out my LinkedIn profile, you might be able to guess who it is. And I always felt that our clients candidates deserved the truth. They can handle the truth. I think that's one of the key things. But back in 2002, I sent out the first salary survey and we just continue to expand it from then on. It's sort of been the key thing for me.

Yeah, But I want to know a little bit more about that, you know, I mean, why is it, you know, obviously we, like Craig said, we know you're passionate about it, but why, why is it so important to you? You know, why do you actually do it in the first place?

I think, I think also because it gives us knowledge of, you know, our marketplace. When we actually talk to clients, we know what we're talking about, which obviously we rarely do. Joking. No, we know nothing about what we do. But at the end of the day, it makes us powerful, you know, because we know exactly what salaries levels are across Europe. You know, we were just talking to Katie and we know that what's happening out there. What's the difference between a group treasurer in the Netherlands versus Belgium versus Luxembourg? We know all the levels. It used to be Switzerland. We did a specific survey there for the guys there. Every incredible insight. So we felt powerful, you know, and again now across in the U.S. it puts us in a unique position. It gives us our own superpower, if you like, because given the recent legislation changes and, you know, the employers cannot ask people their potential current salary, but they can ask what their expectations are. We support that. That's one of the key things. But it means that we know exactly where people are, are, and the salary survey is Our superpower, if you like, you know exactly what is what we're told, what they are targeting for the next move. And it's not up for us. We, we won't disclose that to people, but at the end of the day, it's an amazing benchmark globally. And you know, I've also been asked, you know, recently by one of my clients, they said, oh, we're going to target this salary, you know, but we're saying, okay, but for that level, for that role, it's 30% below the average. Oh, well, what makes you say that so? Well, we know the salaries, we know the salaries of 58 other U.S. treasury managers or in another of the regions, there were 34, 35 global treasurers, all at the same level. So we know where our clients are measuring up or how they compare financially, if you like.

Yeah. Mark, you've also, you talked earlier about the survey kind of evolving, you know, moving into that version two. What does that kind of mean? Why is that important to see that evolution?

Well, version one is, as we said, a bit rough and ready. Version 2 will have a lot of the other stuff we've done on some of the conferences out there. So we, you know, about, you know, Craig, you talked about working from home earlier and Joe was talking about some of the different regions in the uk. We're going to have more information in there. And that's one of the key things. This is a, it's a living, breathing, evolving snapshot of the global treasury market. And one example we also notice is that the treasury consultant category is too big, it's too wide. We need to subdivide it for those earlier, earlier stages within their treasure careers. In the treasurer category, we need to distinguish what is a group treasurer who maybe oversees say 5 to 10 countries versus a global treasurer who oversees 95. Bit of a difference there. So we're going to evolve that. We're also going to give more input about the working from home reasons for happiness and everything else. That's version two and then we're gonna have version three and we're gonna keep on going. But one of the key things I would say is take part in the salary survey. That's right. If I could do it in bold capital. I'm not gonna shout at people on the podcast, but without shouting, it is not a recruitment survey. Yes, we get some nice added benefits, but the fact is we want you guys to be able to benchmark your team. If you want to benchmark your treasury team, do the survey, you get all the results. If you want it as an amazing resource to share with your HR team, take part in the survey. If you think about your next promotion, do the survey. I think you guys are getting the message now, aren't you? Maybe a pay rise or measure yourself against your peers, say next year. I think I'm done, you know, but just take the survey. Treasurysalary.com deliver session about this Helsinki, New York and we do it because we, we love you guys out there. I know it's a bit of a different show today. We'll be back to the normal programming shortly with another great, amazing treasury professional coming up, but we wanted to give some treasury recruitment advice. If you're looking for your next move, please touch and all it remains is we'll get everyone to unmute themselves on the lovely Zoom and thank them for the time. Thank you very much, everyone.

Thank you very much.

Absolute pleasure as always, Mike.

Hello, it's Mike here again. I hope you enjoyed this week's show. If you did, then maybe you want to follow the show or subscribe, depending on where you listen, whether that's itunes, Spotify or another great place to listen to the show from. It's totally free and means that you'll be the first to see each and every week when we release a new show. And maybe whilst you're there, you could even leave a quick review. Reviews and ratings are among the most important metrics for a podcast to effectively rank. And as you can probably appreciate, the podcast is a lot of hard work to produce every week and be amazing. Just take, say, 20 seconds, leave a quick review of my amazing gaming guests and their great career stories. We'd really appreciate it. Thanks very much and I can't wait to see you soon.