Leading Treasury Transformation at SSE Through a £33bn Growth Investment

This week's guest is Andrew Binney, Group Treasurer at SSE. Before we get into the full show, here are a few short clips to give you a flavour of what we covered all the way through from his time at Vodafone. Then he was at BT as the Group Treasury Director and now Group Treasurer at SSE. So have a listen.

I think being challenged but also being supported.

What does being challenged mean to you then?

So being challenged, being put in situations that you may not have felt comfortable choosing to be in that situation yourself. So having someone like a manager, a boss, a leader that has got the confidence in you that they will put you in a situation that you may not feel you've got the experience to be able to deal with. So that's the challenge and the support coming from, you know, the help you prepare for that challenge, getting out of your comfort zone. And also having that leader that has the trust in you that you'll be able to, you've got, some people call it a gut feeling. I don't know, you've got some intuition so you can, you can work things out. So they trust that you'll work it out. There's guardrails around it. So you won't be in a situation where you'd be destroying value. You'd be in a situation to represent your organization. And then learn from it, build from it, and then continue to build your confidence. The missteps in careers can often be, I think we can all fall on this, sometimes taking a short-term view, taking, taking a short-term view and maybe joining a company where your role may appear to be more senior, more impactful than potentially a more junior role in the company that you're with. Yeah. And that, you need to take your risks in your career, but you need to be really confident that it will give you a platform and the colleagues that you'll have will enhance your experience.

Welcome to this week's Treasury Career Corner podcast, where I interview treasury professionals about their treasury careers. Each and every week I talk to treasurers about how they've built their careers, where they are now, where they see both themselves and the treasury profession going to next. Let's get on with the show. In this week's show, I'm joined by Andrew Binney, the Group Treasurer of SSE PLC. SSE is a leading generator of renewables and flexible energy in the GB and Ireland markets, and one of the world's fastest growing electricity networks. Companies. They've got onshore, offshore wind farms, hydro. Well, in fact, I'll get Andrew to explain a little bit more about the business later on in the show because he can cover it much more, particularly with some of the new projects that are coming up, infrastructure. And I know we would, when we talked on our pre-call, there were some very exciting things happening at the company. But Andrew, I know you're very well rehearsed, which is great. We're going to go back to the beginning of your career, how you first started in finance and then, well, banking then, but then finance and treasury. Over to you, sir.

Yeah, no, thanks, Mike. Hi, everyone. So yeah, as you mentioned, the, um, my roots are really in high performance sport and an early career in financial markets and banking. Having studied business studies at university in Edinburgh, I spent a bit of time trying to be a professional rugby player, combining that with working insurance. And that gave me a platform to join Lloyd's TSB, as it was then, on the graduate program. And I was fortunate enough to get my first placement within the Treasury division based in Edinburgh. So that was the start of it all.

And you discovered Treasury then. What did it look like? Because obviously it's quite different to now, really, if you like. It's a good place to cut your teeth and get stuck in with your roots.

Yeah. So given it was, it was in banking. So it was very dynamic. It was very impactful. Uh, and part of my role, even at that early stage, was supporting the team managing the bank's balance sheet and then managing and supporting the treasury activities of Scottish corporates and financial institutions. So there was a broad range of activities. That I was involved in. And really the key thing I think was the insight into how financial markets operated.

And then what happened next? And obviously you and I have discussed this, how the transition then to corporates and corporate treasury.

Yeah, so I think once when I was on the bank side, meeting corporate treasurers, understanding how companies operated, I got a feeling that treasury really being at the center of strategic decision-making. So that was something that appealed to me and I wanted to pursue further. Yeah. And at the same time, Vodafone was expanding exponentially. And I think when you're looking back, you know, you were 26 years in 2000, in a way Vodafone was like the Nvidia of the day. Yeah. It was, it had a market capitalization in excess of £300 million. In 2000. So this was a company expanding. So for someone with a treasury background and treasury career aspirations, it was an amazing opportunity to move from banking into corporate treasury within Vodafone.

And as you say, can you, again, we, you and I know Vodafone very well. And as you say, at that time it was what, number one of the FTSE, I think it was as well, wasn't it?

So, Yeah.

Talk us through your first role there and how did it then develop, or the move and stuff?

Yeah, so the— my first role was as a treasury analyst, and my responsibilities were the cash management, liquidity management, some foreign exchange hedging, very sort of nuts and bolts, nuts and bolts, operational, starting to understand the business and the flows. And after Because there was such a lot of activity, responsibilities got allocated at quite an early stage in the career. So I soon became responsible for managing a $20 billion commercial paper program, large foreign currency flows, and the short-term banking relationships.

And for you as an analyst, that's sort of quite a lot of responsibility on relatively young shoulders. What was that like for you?

Partly it was exciting, it was challenging, but super fulfilling as well. And there was some great managers, right, in Vodafone. The group treasurer at the time, a gentleman called Gerry Bacon, very influential on probably more than a dozen current treasurers or CFOs out Very high standards, but also very focused on developing the team to be able to operate. So probably exceeding what we all thought our own potential was. So the bar was high, the standards were high, but it was, there was lots of support in there. So it was, it was a great, it was a great opportunity just to grab with both hands.

And so you start in that treasury role, but I know that then you're given the opportunity to take on broader finance roles, which I think is interesting with the number of treasury professionals I talk to, corporate treasury all the way through and don't veer from that. And, but then later on they go, oh, I wish I'd done these other things. Whereas you did that. Talk us through the steps there and how it, your career evolved at that stage.

Yeah, sure. Really through expanding my capability. Through the skills I'd built up in treasury, because I had the opportunity to be executing. Yeah, there'd be, if there was M&A activity within the treasury, I'd be executing on the funding plan for it, the foreign exchange required for it, advising on the impact on the credit ratings, given the CFO a view of what the funding priorities could be. So treasury had a big strategic impact. And having built up those skills through execution and built strong networks in the company, I was able to move from treasury into the Vodafone mergers and acquisitions team as a mergers and acquisitions executive, supporting on some very material processes, projects, and activities.

And when you're doing that role, Again, I was just talking recently to Bert Jameson over at Ingersoll Rand, and he was talking about they've done 18 acquisitions in the past year alone and the playbook and everything else. But you are in a different position doing the M&A stuff. What's your playbook for— you are part of this big corporate, but you are leading the transaction by this stage, or certainly playing the key role. When you're looking at things, how do you look at it from a— with a treasury lens or in general terms?

Yeah, I think it's great having the foundation of looking through a treasury lens, which will be looking at due diligence, looking at the risks that need to be managed, looking at how the acquisition would be funded, looking at the appropriate cost of capital for the business plans and being able to rationalise and articulate the challenges around valuation and bid strategy. But it also gives you, it's a big eye-opener on the breadth of stakeholders, considerations, first order, second order, third order, political environment, regulatory environments, different agendas from other, from parts of the company. So you have to become, you have to become really aware of how people operate. How different people receive information, process information, and ultimately make decisions.

Yeah. And then you went from M&A and then it's quite an unusual move in a way to financial control, which is not something I'd— you don't have to see that in a treasury CV resume and things like that. What did that give you? And that was another big move.

Yeah. Yeah. And great opportunities that Vodafone gives colleagues if they're willing to take a risk on their career, move outside their natural comfort zones. And that, again, it's another discipline a CFO requires, financial control. There's financial planning and analysis elements in that. There's decision support and there's also building up a deeper awareness of accounting, accounting standards, governance, and controls as well. So again, it was just another aspect, another building block that I think is important in a career.

And did you enjoy it as much as the treasury piece? Because I know treasury then got you back sort of thing, or?

Yeah, no, I did enjoy it. Again, I was fortunate to be in a growth part of Vodafone at the time. I was financial controller for Vodafone's businesses in India, Egypt, and Qatar. And the leadership team, which was, it was led by Nick Reed, who subsequently went on to be Vodafone Group CFO and then Group CEO. So it was a really, it was a very high quality, high quality team. And just getting that into emerging markets and things like Egypt, for example, I was financial controller during the, when they were troubles in the Middle East. So it was quite, again, in that political regulatory environment. And also gave me the opportunity to have my first non-exec board seat, where I was on the, on the board of Vodafone Egypt, which was— Vodafone was the majority shareholder, but 45% was owned by the state-controlled fixed line company. So again, there's different nuances on how to run such an organization. Yeah.

And you've mentioned there about having just, you've mentioned there a couple of good strong bosses and often you can't choose your boss, but you can follow your boss and say, right, this is someone I wanna work for, wanna work with. When you are, again, if you are someone listening today, what is it you were looking out for from them? What were you thinking? Yeah, this is someone that I wanna work with or continue my career underneath with? What were you looking for?

Yeah, I think being challenged, but also being supported.

What does being challenged mean to you then?

So being challenged, being put in situations that you may not have felt comfortable choosing to be in that situation yourself. Yeah. So having someone, a manager, a boss, a leader that has got the confidence in you that they will put you in a situation that you may not feel you've got the experience to be able to deal with. So that's the challenge and the support coming from, you know, they help you prepare for that challenge.

Yeah. So getting out of your comfort zone.

Absolutely. Getting out of your comfort zone. And I think also having that leader that has the trust in you. That you'll be able to, you've got, some people call it gut feeling. I don't know, you've got some intuition so you can, you can work things out. So they trust that you'll work it out. There's guardrails around it. So you won't be in a situation where you'd be destroying value. You'd be in a situation to represent your organization and then learn from it, build from it, and then continue to build your confidence.

Yeah. And then you came back into treasury. Dragged you back kicking and screaming in a good way.

Yeah. Yeah.

What happened next?

Yeah, well, so the way I came back, I'd actually done an overseas assignment.

Yeah.

So my financial controlling experience gave me the— then gave me the opportunity to be head of financial planning and analysis at Vodafone Netherlands. And as part of my assignment there, I supported the CEO of Vodafone Netherlands to craft a merger business case with a company owned by Liberty Global called Legal.

Yeah.

So the last sort of 6 months of my assignment was doing this integration plan and of course signing that. It was a good time to come back to, back to London and Neil Garridge, who's a treasurer Vodafone at the time, he asked me to come and be part of the team. And it was a great opportunity to get back in the treasury. And there was a good alignment with the Dutch deal.

Yeah.

It was part, one of my first activities back within the treasury team was doing a recapitalization financing of the joint venture that had a high yield capital structure. So more, it had more leverage, Vodafone, a strong investment grade company. The joint venture, a high yield capital structure. So that gave me a great opportunity to weave together what I knew about the company, but also learn lots of new technicalities and new skills about how you manage a company when it's got a purposefully high yield capital structure.

So you'd started in treasury, gone out around the business, you come back into treasury, but also during that period of time, Vodafone had changed quite a lot as a company in terms of size, dynamic, a lot of global, international, but then come back into itself. What was it like, or how had it changed, if you like, or evolved over that time?

Yeah, I think the other things to remember over that time, we'd also been through the global financial crisis. We'd been through the European sovereign debt crisis. So the macro environment changed a lot as well. And the Vodafone treasury team had navigated through all of that in exemplary fashion. The team had really maintained such robust guardrails around how, about how they operated that they'd come through that, come through that really well. And it was even more important. The financial stability that the Treasury was providing for Vodafone as it was pursuing, you know, still pursuing a growth strategy. That growth needed to be funded and needed to be managed. And so the Treasury team was still, I guess, provided a platform for a business to pursue that strategy. And it also had a really strong commercial layer. I think, again, it was a privilege to be part of it. Because treasury can often be in a finance function, working, working with financial controllers, working with financial planning analysis, and, and working with tax colleagues. The Vodafone treasury team were working with sales and marketing colleagues because working on, working on price plans and propositions where customers were buying now devices for £1,000 and treasury was providing the capital and the liquidity to make Vodafone's propositions as attractive as possible. So real, right with the sales force, the marketing teams, designing propositions, and then also were really integrated with the supply chain team. And so that again, both ends, both sales ends and procurement ends, the treasury was integrated across. Across both ends of the organization.

Yeah. And then what happened next? Or then the move after a number of years with Vodafone, it was time to—

Yeah. So before I moved on, I also combining, applying my treasury experience, my FP&A experience, my M&A experience, Vodafone, we decided to embark on a project to demerge some of our telecom infrastructure.. So in telcos, we call it the mobile towers, the masts, passive infrastructure, it's steel, it's civil works, it's bits of concrete, it's cabinets. And we embarked on a project, Vodafone embarked on a project to separate these assets from operating companies across 10 European countries and then merge these companies into a new group. Yeah, and IPO that business. It was called Vantage Towers, and IPO that business in Frankfurt on, in March 2021, which I'm sure listeners will, will remember. That was like peak COVID, the whole project. Yeah, we IPO this €15 billion enterprise business. So, and I was the program director for, for creating that, and then working obviously with lots of colleagues and advisors to get legal advisors, financial advisors, huge project team to IPO it and subsequently did baby bond financing, €2.1 billion the week after the IPO. And then having completed that project, there was an opportunity to transform the treasury team at BT. So that was—

you and I know BT is a household name, but we've got a lot of US listeners that go, who are BT? So Give us a bit of an insight. I mean, I could probably do it, but you do better.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. BT, formerly known as British Telecomunications, is the UK telecommunications backbone. It has been operating in telegraph and telephone over 125 years. So it is an institution. Currently, it owns the UK's number one mobile company as well called EE. So it's, and it's been, it, I was joining at the time that it was embarking on transforming the UK's fiber network. So in, in 2021, the BT division called Openreach probably passed about less than, probably about 4 million premises with fiber and then embarked on a, uh, $25 billion capital investment program to fiberize effectively the entirety of the UK.

Yeah. And it continues in this current— Yeah.

And continues in this one and modernize the mobile network. Yeah. So this was a phenomenal investment that the company was making. And so the company was transforming, a great opportunity to come and transform the treasury team as well.

And you came into the treasury team and then also you were creating a center of excellence overseas as well. Or talk us through that time. You've walked in and it's not business as usual. It's like business plus plus. Talk us through that.

Yeah, you're right, mate. And it was still COVID as well.

No, this is what I was going to say.

It was, yeah, we had plans to consolidate. The plan was to consolidate the middle and back office activities. In a, and this is a really important point, a BT-owned center of excellence in Budapest. So it was about needing to build that team from scratch. Super important to get the senior leaders in Hungary and find the right people and also being able to effectively manage the transfer of activities from London to Budapest. Because the loyal, longstanding colleagues in London, I needed to get their engagement to be able to make sure that this transition would happen as effectively as possible.

So how did you do that? Except for big bonuses. I'm joking.

Yeah, it was big fee.

It was, yeah.

Yeah. Well, I guess I think I've always said, I think I got lucky. It's always, you always plan for the best and then you plan, plan. And if you plan well enough, you get lucky.

Yeah.

I was able to recruit some great individuals in Budapest that jokes aside, thanks to Diageo Treasury Center, they had some super colleagues that were also looking for that. So sorry for that Diageo, but they had some great colleagues that were then looking for the next challenge and wanted to be part of something. To be able to create something. So yeah, I got some quite clever— joined the team.

Yeah, well, we did Eurofinance in Budapest just a few months ago, and I met a lot of the local treasury talent there, and I, as you say, I was blown away. These guys were great. I'm like, oh, can we move around? We'd like to. And I was like, yeah, send me your CV. I was just like, they've got great experience and an international experience as well, rather than just sometimes you meet, we've been to different venues, it's more local. These guys have got everything and I'm like, wow.

Yeah. Yeah. And the career proposition that they got, it's not, so at BT, BT, we were managing a debt book of 20 billion worth commensurate cross-country swaps, interest rate swaps, derivatives. So the guys there were, they're managing the operational side of that. And the valuation side of it, the accounting side of it switch. And so when we're doing, we're doing capital markets exercises, liability management, the guys, they're part of that. So that was quite, it was a real attractive career proposition, but for me it was making the purpose and the outcomes really clear to get that team operationally excellent.

So take us through the next move to SSE. And I touched on them as a company, but I know that you can explain it much more because again, a very exciting challenge and big expansion as well.

Talk us through it. Yeah. Yeah. So I guess on a number of— SSE were looking for a new group treasurer to advise and help the company navigate through an amazing investment plan.

So who are they?

Give us business. So SSE, as you mentioned at the start, Mike, we're what the industry calls an integrated energy utility. Right. There's 3 main divisions. Yes. Networks. So we own electricity networks in the north of Scotland and the south of England. 2NetOne is called the transmission network, which is the big pylons carrying energy from where it's generated to where it needs to be consumed and where it's delivered. The distribution network takes it from that point to the premises. So the two, so networks, regulated local monopolies. There is renewables. So renewable generation, SSE owns Europe's largest wind farm called Dogger Bank. We got a, we were awarded a contract just last week for part of what will become the world's biggest offshore wind farm called Berwick Bank. That's a process that we're, you know, a project that's starting now. So the generation capacity of our offshore wind is crucial for the UK energy security and super important, the path to net zero. Yeah. And then we've got flexibility, which is our— we do, we sell energy to, to, to businesses. We sell it to consumers in Ireland. So we're present UK and Ireland, and we've still got gas-fired power stations. You need the— we need the flexibility. The energy security needs the flexibility that comes from gas-fired power stations. And then, so if we just go to the investment case that they need, The UK and countries across Europe were going through an, it's a once in a generation investment in the electricity networks. For example, in the UK, we've got all this generation capability in the north of Scotland, but it's kind of stuck up there. So we need to build a transmission network that will modernize and it will take the power from where it's generated to where it's needed. And so in November, November 2025, we announced a new plan. It's called Transformation for Growth 2030, which is a £33 billion investment program to then just to 2030. So effectively over 4, over 5 years. And that's to the majority of it is to increase the capacity of the transmission network. Yeah. And why, as a treasurer, why would you need a new treasurer to help them on that? Because 35% of the investment is getting funded by an increase in our net debt and hybrid capital. So £15 billion is a requirement, comes from increase in debt.

Yeah. And what has been the biggest challenge, if you like, your first 6 months in the role? What's been the greatest challenge or the hardest that you've encountered and what has pleased you, if you like? How have you won hearts and minds sort of thing?

Yeah, so I think that I— the biggest challenge was getting up to speed very quick because this— the decision-making on the— how the capital funding was going to happen, that had been— the train had left the station a long time ago. I hadn't quite got to the destination, but now CFO and CEO were seeking my insight on how confident I would be on the ability to raise the capital, to raise the debt funding, to really underpin, underpin what's now a fully funded business plan.

And you're only just in the seat.

You're like, right, okay. Yeah. So a bit of pressure on, yeah, this is why we hired you, Andrew. We're expecting you to be able to tell us all that straight away. So there was, so there was a, there was, that was a bit of a challenge. And I think it was made relatively straightforward by the Treasury team. SSE is super strong and super experienced. Yeah. And so for me, it was ensuring that I, my arrival, when I guess did it elegantly with humility, engaged the team and became a bit of a glue. For the team as well and help, just to help and elevate their, their decision-making, their confidence, and just providing real clarity on, on the purpose, what our purpose is going to be, how we're going to support the business, what, how we're going to represent each other, values, and clarify and do it, honing up what outcomes we're looking for.

When you say you've got a strong team, is that, that they've got established relationships with the banks and relate around the business as well, or is it, what's the standout bits for you?

Yeah, so in the, my leadership team have been with the business for a considerable number of years. So deep knowledge across the business, understand the heritage of the business, understand the strategic direction of the business, and have worked with a core number of relationship banks and partners for a number of years.

Yeah. And you're, as you say, the sort of the new person, if you like, new, newly in the seat. What, how did you talk about the clarity and setting the decisions? If someone's listening today and they've got the similar challenge, was it go out and win hearts and minds, or what process have you been through again? Because you're relatively early in the role sort of thing.

Yeah, no, I think something on this about doing it in a purposeful step-by-step programmatic way. Yeah. So one of the, one of the first things that I did, and even before joining, meeting everyone one-on-one, the entire team. And then you've got a relatively short, you've got, I think you've got a relatively short time to just make, you need to observe, you need to consider, you don't want, you don't want, you don't, I would recommend against jumping in with two feet. But one of the, one of the, my learnings from transitioning in the past was give everyone a voice and listen to it and try and co-create, try and co-create using, using technology as well. Getting the guys, I think, being a couple of my senior, Ricky, George, and Wesley, putting together, you know, a number of questions that you would ask, got a team to answer all these questions that we then feed into. Purpose, why we're doing stuff, how we're doing stuff, and what, how we're going to measure outcomes. And then bringing the team together in a workshop just, just to go through it and help, you know, help them understand what they see as a purpose of Treasury, the purpose of their job, how they want to, how they want to show up, what support they need, and put something together that everyone buys into. Yeah.

Well, I wanted to highlight something as well. When we, just before we started the call and stuff today, One of the things that really impressed me was I usually have my pick list of questions and some of the transformation and things, and I'll recommend this to other podcast guests. And Andrew sent me through this great background about your phases of your career, expanding your capability, delivering transformation. This was— I was thinking, hang on, we've done a great document here, but it didn't. It came from you. But you, as you said, you've really worked on that as well. And I think that's something that other treasurers should think about and other treasury professionals. Is that the way you think or is that just something you've developed over time or where's that come from?

Yeah, it's something I've developed over time and I was looking through the other questions that you sent over in advance. There was the other example questions. There was one in there about mistakes. Yeah. Have you made mistakes? And I've made more mistakes than I could care to imagine. So many mistakes, whether that be early stage career, misreading the financial markets, right? Sometimes misjudging investor sentiment when I'm issuing some bonds, turning up to, I remember one time with Vittorio Colao as the CEO of Vodafone, and I'm representing the M&A team thinking, I'm just, I'll be there. There'll be a, there'll be a few decisions. More people, more senior than me. Be talking here in the room, first thing he says, Andrew, what should we do? I'm like, maybe, you know, so that's a mistake. Yeah. So I've made so many. So I just haven't done that and made mistakes. I just like to prepare and like to think things through. If you write stuff down, you start thinking clearer and you put it together and it just helps you. It helps you clarify why you want to do something, how you're going to do it, and it helps you communicate to others so that they can understand as well.

Yeah, that's great advice. And that example really reminds me of— I'd made mistakes a bit like that early on in my career, but then I was asked to do a presentation during COVID virtually, and I was meant to be co-presenting with another recruiter.. And I thought, plan for the hope for the, what was it? Hope for the best, plan for the worst. Luckily, I planned for the worst because I thought he's meant to be nice. He was nice on the calls and stuff. Got to the actual session. Oh, he pushed me under that bus. He was like, oh, you are the treasury, you are the treasury expert. Over to you, Mike. I was thinking, yeah, that's not what we rehearsed. But the lucky thing I would say is that literally where I'm sitting now was actually full of Post-it notes and full of planning things. And I thought, just in case, what could go wrong? And luckily, and actually I came out of it looking rather good. I was pretty bloody brilliant because, but that was because I'd planned for it as just as you've done. This is the way we've gone through the interview now and it's just made my life a lot easier from everything here. So about strong foundations, expanded capability. This is— I'm reading from Andrew's notes. So we're towards the end. Just— we're not wrap up yet. Where do you see the biggest challenges? Obviously, you've got some challenges in your current role. Lots of stuff coming along, which is great fun. But where do you see the challenges when you and I are hanging out at conferences? What are the things you think that other treasurers need to be thinking about?

Yeah. So I think there's a lot of noise around. So if you think it's sort of the treasury activities from a funding and risk management perspective, there's a lot of information. There's a lot of noise out there. So I think for a treasurer, it's, it's being able to have a small group of advisors that can help them cut through the noise and help and help support because ultimately the treasurer's decision recommend to the CFO or the board, depending on how the governance works, but it's being really prepared to be able to interpret what's happening from a macro, a macro perspective, and then making the appropriate recommendations for your company. So that's one of the— and then of course there's always evolving technology. And as we go through different business cycles, there's operational efficiency pressures that come across all functions. And so I think it's a challenge for a treasurer to continually ensure that the organization understands second order, third order of the value that a treasury creates. A treasury is, a treasury, I've got massive bias obviously. Treasury is not a headcount thing. A treasury is all the value that sits within treasury. So you've got the finance expense, the funding cost. Every member of that treasury team is a commercial member of that team. So I think that's a treasurer's challenge is to, with the business, if businesses, if you're in a position where businesses are looking for efficiencies, it's been able to deliver efficiencies that the company needs, but protecting, ensuring the company is protecting the values and the value that doesn't sit in overhead.

Yeah. Just as you say, you've done a lot of reflection, you've gone back through and very much planned. But if you look back over your career so far, but it continues, are there any roles in particular or any bits of advice? Again, if someone's listening today and they're going, 'Oh, I'm being offered this at F&A role,' or something like that. Any things that you think maybe turned the dial for you, or that really helped you, sort of thing?

Yeah, think about what it means for the role after you've done that. Is it going to be complementary? Is it going to build new skills? Yeah. Is it going to give you new relationships? Is it going to enhance existing relationships? So there's a number of key factors, but also the job is to think deep and hard about the leadership team. Yeah. Who, your line manager, what are they like? What are their peers? If you can get to meet the peers, you know, and what's the boss's boss like? Yeah. That for me is as important, is more, probably more important, that character side of it. Is more important than some of the skills that you're potentially gonna, gonna build.

And what are the missteps then that people need to avoid? You, you talked there about preparing and going into that meeting and stuff. Are there any ones that you think that stand out and go, right, actually guys, you need to be— and maybe even you tell your team, guys, plan for this and or watch out for this.

The, the missteps in careers can often be, I think we can all fall into this sometimes, of taking a short-term view, taking, taking a short-term view and maybe joining a company where your role may appear to be more senior, more impactful than potentially a more junior role in the company that you're with. Yeah. And that, you need to take risks in your career, but you need to be really confident that it will give you a platform and the colleagues that you'll have will enhance your experience.

And you've had 2 decades in Treasury, either 3 decades of Treasury recruitment. So I know it's a bit bonkers, but what keeps it interesting for you then? Is it because you've talked a lot about the capital market stuff, you talked about the people. What's the things that maybe come to the top? And again, you gave a great summary in some of the executive summary you sent across to me, but What are the things that stand out to you?

I think, I think it's been at the heartbeat of the company and being able to, and being able to help people make more informed decisions, bringing insight so the decisions that are getting made are as informed as possible. That's number one. Number two, I take great fulfillment from building, building colleagues, building the capability of colleagues. I know we're going to wrap up shortly, but from the BT experience, you know, having the build-up, giving the colleagues the opportunity. And so when it was time for me, when it was time for me to move on to the next step in my career in the past, Tesh Collier, he was able to step up to the Treasury Director role at BT. So for me, that's kind of just what keeps me going, just creating successful treasurers. And successful colleagues regardless of what discipline they're in.

And so we'll put your LinkedIn details in the show notes so people can connect to you.

Any closing words from you, sir, from today? No, I think to thank you for the platform. Thank you for the opportunity to share. Maybe there'll be a fellow treasurer or treasury analyst, wherever anyone is in their career. It's, it's, it's a journey. It's a journey that you're on. Take the opportunities. And I think it was something I've read recently. It said something along the lines of, you don't learn to swim by reading a book. So get yourself out there and get swimming.

Yeah, love it. And I love a swimming analogy anytime. So thank you very much, sir.

Been great to catch up. Thank you. Thank you, mate.

Thanks all. Before you finish today's show, a quick reminder, you can earn CTP credits just by listening to the podcast. Listen to the show, take a short online quiz, pass the quiz, gotta do that, and then we'll send you CTP credits. This means you can recertify, which I know you have to do every 2 years, and lots of people do it. It's so convenient. They do it whilst they're commuting. They might be at the gym, walking the dog. We are there to help you. It's designed to fit around you and your real treasury jobs. Not add more work to it. If you're already listening, you might as well get the credit for it. All you need to do, head to the episode page, take the quiz, and as I say, as long as you pass, we will send you the CTP credits. I know, it's all part of the service. Thanks again for listening. We appreciate your support. I'll see you soon.

Thanks.