Lessons From a 25-Year Treasury Career: How Transparency Turns Relationships Into Partnerships

In this week's episode, you'll get to hear from Daniel Fez, Senior Treasury Director at Horizon Blue Cross Blue Shield of New Jersey. Have a listen.

I think that no matter where you are in your career, you always have to keep on learning. You have to be, you know, and I, and I, I'm trying to learn every, every day, you know, some, some of the things I do in downside. I got very fascinated, if you will, on the financial crisis, right. So some of the things I've read on my, you know, complete downtime, it's about the financial crisis. One of the things that happens in treasury is that everything's quiet, right? You're managing your day, you're managing your department until a crisis happens. And what's the first thing everybody looks at? Do we have the money, right, where's our money? Or operationally, where can we do this and that? And I think that's where treasury shines the most. Right. If you have a good structure, you have good fundamentals and operational process, you're going to be able, hey, yeah, just another day in the office type of deal. Coming into Horizon now, I came into my third industry, Mike. Right now we're talking about industry and Treasury. So a lot of the treasury functions were the same, right. We talked about on that, but it's really about learning the industry and it's not an inde easy industry to learn. Right. You know, healthcare is very complicated and you really need to understand, you know, from a regulation perspective, you know, how does that work? How do you, you know, how do you raise money? What are your, your outflows, you know, the forecasting's all different on that.

Welcome to this week's Treasury Career Corner podcast where I interview treasury professionals about their treasury careers. Each and every week I talk to treasurers about how they build their careers, where they are now, where they see both themselves and the treasury profession going to next. Let's get on with the show. This week's show, delighted to be joined by my good mate, Daniel Perez, Senior Director of Treasury at Horizon Blue Cross Blue Shield of New Jersey. Horizon Blue Cross Blue Shield of New Jersey are the state's largest and oldest health insurer and subsidiary of Horizon Mutual Holdings, a not for profit mutual holding company. Together with its affiliates, Horizon provides a wide array of medical, dental, vision and and prescription insurance products and services for all of their, their clients, their customers right the way across. Well, in fact, I'll get Daniel to explain exactly who they are later on in the show. We've known each other for many years. We're good friends. So I always enjoy these podcasts where I know you well. Daniel, mate, take us back to the beginning, if you would. You just described before the show that you're a Treasury lifer, but in a good way. So over to you, sir, and great to have you on the podcast, finally. Over to you.

Well, thank you, Mike. I'm really looking forward to this. I know that we've known each other for a long time, so I think it's going to be a good conversation, a good chat on that. So I'll start with, you know, how I got into treasury, and I'm going to go back a little ways, right. I'm a big person in believing in destiny and how you get to where you're supposed to be getting. And, you know, I'll go back all the way back. As a kid, my mom was in banking for over 40 years, managing branches, managing different credit. She was a vice president of credit. And I got to see a firsthand on what banking is. And I always say, treasury is your corporate banker, if you will, on that. So I got to see her work a lot. And I was always interested in that aspect of finance, if you will, but not necessarily that I say I want to be a banker on that, but I was very intrigued with that. So, you know, when I was going to college, I was wondering, okay, what am I going to study, right? And what am I going to do? And again, you go to a parent, you go to, you go to mom, hey, mom, what do you think I should do? And I remember the conversation. She goes, hey, listen, you know, if you get into finance, then you go branch out to a lot of different things in your career and whatever you wanted. So that's exactly what I did. You know, I got my degree in finance. Quite frankly, it was more concentrated on being a stockbroker or being a financial planner, which wasn't bad. So I got out of college, tried that out, and, you know, one of the things I learned, Mike, is, you know, to be a good stock worker, financial planner, you have to sell. And one of the things I don't like doing is selling, so I don't like doing that. So I somehow got into accounting. You know, one of my first jobs in accounting, I worked for luxury brand Gucci at the time, was a junior accountant. I was doing a lot of reconciliation, a lot of bank reconciliation, was backing up the treasury person at that time every once in a while. So I got a little taste of that. And as a Treasury president, I like money, right? So I find that, I found that interesting. So ironically, I got a call from a recruiter at that time. Wasn't looking to move at that time. I was about to get married. I was very happy where I was at first for the moment. But he's like, listen, just have a conversation, you know, you bet. In my ear. Enough. I went to. Had a conversation. I went interview with Bed, Bath and Beyond corporate office at that time. They're looking for a staff accountant.

And who are they for? I know them well. Yeah, yeah. So explain who beyond.

Yeah. So Bed Bath and Beyond was, you know, longer around the retailer. A lot of different stores. They had a lot of different stores across the country. They sold a lot of bedding and kitchen apparel and stuff like that. So the folks in the States really know about retail. Yeah, retail on that. So it was retail. And I was coming from retail at Gucci at that time. So when I went there, I was interviewing for a staff accounted job, like I said, with the assistant controller. And she had, at that time she was overseeing treasury, you know, she just got treasury under her belt and she goes, hey, listen, I see you have a little bit of treasury experience. We had the treasury analyst just resign four days ago. Would you want, would you want to sit down for the, to interview for the treasury analyst job? And I was thinking to myself, I wasn't planning on it. Another half hour conversation is fine, let's do it. So I went and I interviewed the treasury manager at the time. Another Mike and I'll get a little more, a little bit on that. And I interviewed there went great. And one of the things I've never had to ever happen again in my career was I got offered both jobs, Mike. And it's interesting the Kruger said, listen, you did so good, they really liked you, you could have your pick of the job. So I had to think for a little bit. And coming back to the destiny situation wasn't something I was thinking about. I was like, you know what? I really like the vibe I had with the manager at the time, Mike, at Bed Bath beyond and let's try the treasury thing out.

Yeah. See what it's like.

And I haven't looked back since that was 2001.

And, and with the treasury there, was it more retail, treasury, domestic? Cause again we, when we talk to some of our podcast guests and by the way, across, sometimes you have lots of international, but you were more domestic or what was the sort of the.

Treasury mix at the beginning it was very domestic. We were starting when I started, we are about 200 plus stores, only domestic. You know, we were opening about 70, 80 stores a year as we went by. I forget what year, maybe 2006, which was a good experience. We did go international, which was Canada at the time, and then a little bit after that was Mexico. So I got a little bit of a taste of FX and how to deal with that on the accounting side. But mostly it was domestic, what I'd say about Bed Bath Beyond. And I try to put my career in different buckets, if you will. That's where I learned my core treasury very operational. Your normal stuff that you do in treasury, your positive pays, your cash management, that was very operational. Again, domestic on that side.

And you then went, I know you and I have talked about this. You went from treasury, what's the word? Contributor to then actual. More decision maker and leader and things like that as you started to step up. What was that like? Or how did that happen?

So it was, it was really good. Listen, I think that's when you have a good manager advocating for you and they see your talents. Right. He saw something in me that I probably didn't see right right away. He saw, hey, Daniel's going to be a good supervisor, if you will. So that's where I got my first opportunity to supervise a team. And that. So which I really, really did enjoy on that and giving, basically giving you the keys to manage the way you wanted to manage. So that's how I, I got my, my opportunity there. So I was, I started as a contributor, you know, a couple, you know, a year and a half later, I was a supervisor at that time. I got to be able to manage a team. I always say managing people is not the easiest thing in the world. And it's not because it's hard for me. It's just you're managing other folks, you know, you're not, you're not controlling the, the process you're doing. So that's, that's what comes a little hard in managing. And after that, I got, a couple years after that I was able to be the treasury manager and control, you know, all aspects of treasury at Bed Bath Beyond. But one of the things, and you alluded to a little bit is I think for me, I've always wanted to challenge myself, right? And what is going to be the next. What was going to be the next step in my career? And we talked about it. We were domestic. We had a little bit of stuff in Canada, we had a little bit in Mexico. But I looked at myself as I listen, if I, you know, we talked about Treasure Life for. I want to be progressing in my career, I need to probably take another step.

Yeah.

And I always thought, okay, the next step is being working for a more global company, getting more exposure to fx, more exposure to what happens around the world. Because at that time I was like, this is my next step in my career, which, you know, if you want, I could lead into that. That, that got me to be, you know, assistant vice president of treasury operations at what is now Chubb Insurance at that time. It was Ace Global Insurance at the time. So that's great opportunity. I hated to leave Bed Bath Beyond. I was there nine and a half years. In your career, you have to challenge yourself and you need to take that next step. So keep on progressing.

And you were doing two, two transitions there. You'd move from retail into insurance, which in and of itself is a challenge. But then you've gone from, as you said, domestic to this much more global environment things. How did you, you know, again, we're in a Vice show, so you, if someone else is going through that, how did you handle it? Or any bits of advice you give people.

It wasn't easy, Mike, I'll tell you that. It wasn't like, oh, I jumped in right the first day, like, oh, I know exactly what's going on. There was a lot of trial and error, quite frankly. To your point. I went from retail to property and casualty insurance. Totally different industries altogether. I always say treasury is treasury, right? You manage cash, you. A lot of it flows into different industry. But the key about treasury is really understanding that industry. So I really had to go head on and really ask a lot of folks different questions, pick a lot of folks brains. I feel like I'm a good collaborator, right. And I think that's part of what I really like about my job and in. And be able to do that because that's how you learn the process, you know, and meeting with people being, making sure you're. You're comfortable, being uncomfortable. You know, I'm using a term from a, you know, former colleague on that, on that. And that's me reaching out to folks that are more subject matter experts in the process and say, hey, listen, let me meet, Let me. I want to pick your brain for a little bit. Let me start learning what you do, how you do it. And that's how it evolved in learning, learning things. And don't be shy about reaching out to folks because I feel like folks really want to tell you what they do, right. They want to say, hey, this is what I do, but I approach it as I want to learn from you, but I also want to learn how I could help you. And that's the key to Treasury. I always look at treasury. It's a financial aspect, but it's a customer service part of the business. And that's one part that I think a lot of folks don't understand.

And but so I just want to jump in there and I know you and I talked about this. Sorry, just on that. No, you said you like as you say you've got external customer service but within treasury and the way you approach it, you and I talked about this on the pre call that you're an internal customer, you're trying to help other people. And I think a lot more of the successful treasury folks do that rather than operate in their silo. How do you approach that then?

So I coming back to one of the things I saw my coming back to my mom and what I liked about the banking world is the relationships that people had, right. And you know, my bankers will see, you'll hear this when I, when they hear this podcast, they'll say, you know, I say this all the time. I don't look at those relationships, I look at them as partnerships. Right. Because it's a give and take amongst each other. I think in treasury as and again, being biased in this treasury is one of the roles that you're going to be working a lot with internal and external, right? You're that bridge amongst folks in the organization that have a problem or have you need a solution, they're coming to you typically and say, hey, we have this billing or this receivable model or issue that we want to have. You have any ideas? I'm the one that's going to take it out to the bankers or my vendors and say, hey, what do you have? You know, what can we do? And that's what I really enjoy about my job. And it's really that relationship and partnership management. And quite frankly, that's why I've been in treasury for 25 years, because that's what I enjoy. Not every day is the same day. Every day is a new challenge, a new opportunity.

How do you take it from relationship to partnership? There are great words, but what's the crossing point?

I think it's not only from a banker perspective, not only reaching out to your bankers when you need them, right? Having consistent conversations and really just working with them and offering them, hey, I have this issue or problem, what do you think? And then also understanding what they're doing from A banking perspective, what's happening in the industry. But the other piece that I would say as a partnership is transparency. Right. Yeah. Transparency is, I think, a major part of the partnership that you have with your internal and external partners. Right. I think I'm very transparent. I'm very, you know, you and I have a really good relationship. Exact same relationship I have with every, you know, every partner on that. I will tell them, hey, banker A, you're doing this great, but you need work here. Right. Or, you know, there's other areas that we would like to. To address and just be very, very candid.

That.

And I feel that that's appreciated. And I always call my. I look at myself as in the transparency. It's a transparency journey for me. Right. When I. Earlier in my career, I was very, you know, strategic of what I can and I cannot say to my. My bankers. And quite frankly, Mike, that didn't. I didn't feel like that worked. Right. I was. We're going in circles a little bit and sometimes and some. And initiatives and processes. But, you know, there was a point in my career, and I can't tell you pinpoint right now it is and said, you know what, I'm just gonna rip the band aid. Be transparent. And I just found that that's when we were. We started getting things done.

Yeah.

And for example, if we're not going to do something, I'm gonna say, hey, it's probably not the time. Maybe 18 months from now we'll do it. But not now. That's not the time.

Well, I think. And actually picking on that. And it's brilliant. We talked about that. Sandra Rama Salves or I know you saw Bristol Myers Squibb. She was. And a live stage guest at Treasure Career Corner Live. Now we've actually got a colleague, Keith, who Gorb. He's in a session in March and the two. So the three of you just need to talk relationships about banks. I mean, there'll be bankers around, you go. But the fact is that's something that came across to me that actually he said, you know, they've recently done some big, you know, public things, big issuances and really worked hard on it. And he said it's all about that. And he said that didn't happen just for that one deal. He said, we've been building up to that for years. So that was cool. And then.

Absolutely. Yeah.

And then with you then bring us a bit more up to date. And then your journey at Horizon Blue Cross Blue Shield in New Jersey again, explain who they are. Now, some of the people will have heard my chat with Frank, but give us a chat through the organization then, Frank, and then bring us up to date.

Yeah. So Horizon Blue Cross Blue Shield of New Jersey. I'll start on explaining the Blue Shield. Blue Cross Blue Shield brand. Yeah, it's, it's a license of the association. Right. So other folks heard of the Blue Cross Blue Shield. I don't like to use the word franchise, but think about that. You know, there's the association and everybody licenses that, that name. And you'll have different blue claws, Blue Shields across the country there. That's just that that Blue Scrolls Blue Shield name. They're licensing, but they're all individual. Right. So you have different associate or different plans across the country. We are the health insurer of New Jersey. Right. We are individually an individual company. We have our own board of directors, we have our own senior management team. And we primarily, you know. Right. Business, medical, Medicaid, dental, all that. Business in the state of New Jersey. On that we have other, this is.

Health insurance for individuals, families, employers, because obviously that's a business in the US Whereas it's structured very differently. And you've got, I mean, looking here, it says over 3 million. You know, you serve over 3 million throughout New Jersey and things. And it's quite different, if you like, for us, you know, in Europe in particular as well.

Yep. No, absolutely. So that, and that's really what we do. We're here to provide services for our providers. Right. And in our groups, you know, we, that, that we do health insurance administration for. On that. So that's, that's part of our business. I always, you know, my, my part of it is I, I got to make sure I pay these providers. Right. That has the money to pay to pay them. But that's, that's essentially, that's what it is primarily in New Jersey is where we're based out of.

And you've been there 10 years or 11 years now, but you started with as treasury ops manager, now through to senior director. What's the title of change your roles evolved, what stayed the same? What's changed?

So I'll, I'll say what, what got me here, right. You know, I, I talked about, I wanted to be global effects and stuff like that, and I did that. And it gets to the point like, you know what I want to, I want to change it up a little bit. Right. You know, I like, I like being in state New Jersey. I was working in Philadelphia for a while and I was like, you Know, I want to come back to New Jersey on that. And you know, this opportunity came up at that time to be a Treasury, treasury manager. And like you said, I moved all the way up to senior director now on that. I think a lot of it is where I've gotten myself is frankly outworking everybody. You know, on that. One of the things I always say is you don't need to be the smartest in the room, but that shouldn't stop you from being the hardest worker in the room on that. Coming into Horizon now, I came into my third industry, Mike. Right now we're talking about industry and Treasury. So a lot of the treasury functions were the same. Right. We talked about on that, but it's really about learning the industry and it's not an indis. Easy industry to learn. Right. You know, healthcare is very complicated and you really need to understand, you know, from a regulation perspective, you know, how did that work? How does that work? How do you, you know, how do you raise money, you know, how, you know, what are your, your outflows? You know, the forecasting's all different on that. One of the things that I really pride myself and I'll go back to bed. Bath is operational, right? It's really understanding operations of the business. And one of the things I stress for myself and I stress for my team is whenever we're doing something, we really need to understand the ins and outs as much as possible. You know, map out the flows, what happens from A to, to Z and even further on, on that. Because once you understand the operations of the process, then you really be able to understand, okay, how can we fix it if it needs fixing, how can we expand on expanding? And that's how you'll be able to build it. It's a foundation, if you will, that you need to really understand. So for me, I've always been very strong operationally, right. Understanding that that comes in with experience. Right. You know, when you, you at some point in your career, something didn't go as, as planned, okay, what can I do to fix that so that, you know, coming in, that's how I approached it. Hey, let's understand everything we do. Map it out. Do standing operation operating procedures. Really look at those operation operating procedures every year. Do they make sense? Do they not make sense and maybe challenge something that, hey, I made a decision on something two years ago. It made sense two years ago, but it doesn't make sense now. So it's really about operational structure of that that's helped. And coming up a little piggyback on the operational side, I think from treasury, what happens in treasury and I've been through a couple different avenue financial, not financial crisis, but world events, if you will. Right. We had financial crisis in 2008, you know, we had Covid in 2020. Right. One of the things that happens in treasury is that everything's quiet, right? You're managing your day, you're managing your department until a crisis happens. And what's the first thing everybody looks at? Do we have the money, right, where's our money? Or operationally, where can we do this and that? And I think that's where treasury shines the most. Right. If you have a good structure, you have good fundamentals and operational process, you're going to be able, hey, yeah, just another day in the office type of deal. Yeah, you're going to be working more hours and stuff like that, but it's another day in the office and you're very prepared for that.

And talk us through, if you would, touching on that. He talked about the team, talk about that you recently got promotion. We moved, Frank, and things. Can you talk us through that? And then where that transition for you? Because obviously you've got that promotion. What's that been like for you? That's. That's quite a shift, which is great.

Yeah, so that's great. Listen, I think what's good about it is that coming back with the transparency, right. Frank and I, you know, we had really good relationship. Very transparent.

Frank is. Can you explain some people?

Frank Balacio? Yeah, he's. He moved on to. He's a vice president, treasurer at another company, I think. Serious Insurance Life. Yeah, Serious Life on that show. You know, I look at him as a mentor a lot, but, you know, we worked very close together throughout the years and I was able to be in the room, if you will. And a lot of these meetings, a lot of these discussion, you know, I've been managing. Now I manage a rating agency process, which is great. You know, he helped me bring me along and I'll talk a little bit about advocacy on that in a little bit. But I, you know, I, I've been, you know, able to manage bank relations for a number of years on that. So I was able to get the keys, if you will, to manage that. So when he left, it was a good transition plan, you know, quite frankly, a little earlier than we thought, than we ever thought it was going to happen. But what I, you know, I did was dive right in, Dive right in and see what it is. But what I'll talk About is the team. Right. You know, it's. I think it's what happens and it didn't happen overnight. It was a number of years that we put the right people in place. Right. We challenged them and that. And I think the only reason why this has worked is because we've had a really good team on that. I got a couple of new areas to manage, but to me it's like, listen, I'm here to guide, I'm here to help type of situation. I'm not here to change the world tomorrow. I want to learn too. Right. And that's what I come back to you. I don't have to be the smartest person in the room. I just, I have to be the one that helps catch up on. On that. But it was only a good transition because we did a lot of work when nobody was looking, Mike. And that's one of the things that just because somebody's looking, that's not. When you work, you got to work all the time. What is your forward thinking or how can you. What could happen that you don't, you don't want to happen? Are you prepared for that? And I think that's how we, we did and we really worked hard to get that. And you know, and I think that's what propelled me to the, to this role and be able to do that. And I think it's. So far it's worked really well.

And that's a transition, though. You. You letting go of some of the detail without letting go of it, getting off your plate. But, you know, you've made that step up. What's that been like?

I think I feel like it's been a little easier than I even anticipated. And I think it comes back to letting go a little bit on that. Early in my career, it was. I wanted to be in control of everything. Right. Because I wanted to. It's a certain way to do it. But what I learned over time is like, you know what, Just because you're doing a certain way doesn't mean there's another somebody else that could do a better way. Right. And they could bring a different viewpoint on that. So I said, you know, the only way to one, keep your sanity, if you will, from a work perspective, because, you know, when you're in treasury, you're responsible for a lot. You're responsible for all the funds of the organization.

Yeah.

So that, on. That is a lot to bear, but you don't have to do it by yourself. Right. You want to have your team take on that as well. Along with you and be on that journey with you. And that's what, you know, that was done for me and I, I took that weight on and that I'm, I'm letting that happen too, because delegation is not easy. You want to do things perfectly your way, but you really need to let, you know, let go and say, hey, this is what I want. This is how we, we want to do it. You know, provide more guidance than anything and then flows. And I think that approach has worked very well. So I let the folks that are subject matter experts in their areas continue doing that. Right. I think it's, it's a good, it's a good balance for everybody.

I want to talk about some of the challenges facing treasury, but we moved down to that. But just before we do, you know, you and I, we see each other at the AFP conferences and I know you've got your ctp, you advocate for it, as do I. And we, you know, we partner with the afp. We'll put that in the show notes and also we'll put a link to our previous podcast with Frank, because that was a great one as well. You know, great guys saying, great guy to learn from. But just on that certification itself, pro it, getting the other guys to do it, you yourself, what was it done and how has that given you, you know, knowledge, if you like?

I talked about advocating a little bit and you really have had good mentors, right? Yeah, I got my CTP much later in my career and I probably should have. And I think part of it is because I didn't really have somebody advocating, hey, ctp, get your certification on that. So I, I have a, you know, I have a Bachelor's of finance, I have a Master's in accounting, and they're really good and they've gotten me to a certain point. But if treasury is the where you want to be, you know, to me, and you and I talked about it very candidly, CTP is the way to go. Your certified treasury professional certification is the way to go. And it's not just about having that certification. It's what comes with that certification. Right? It opens a world of things that, you know, you probably are not a subject matter expert on on that when, you know, example, afp, yes, you are. You are required to get certain credits to get your AFP credits. But if you're there and you're open and you're engaged, you're listening to what's happening in the industry, right? What's happening with AI, what's happening with APIs, different things that are out there. And that's your exposure to that coming back to. You're the customer service for the organization, the external connection to what's going on outside. And that's what I think the CTP brings as that. And it also brings a listen, a seriousness to what you want as a treasurer that you want to do. Right. You're dedicating to that. And I think CTP to me personally has been a game changer. So from my career and that's one of the things we do advocate. I have a few people on my team right now that are going through the journey of getting a CTP and we push it. And I don't push it, say you got to get your ctp. If you don't get it, it's failure. I opposite get your ctp. When you're studying, you're learning. Right? So that I think that's the CTP is the way to go, especially if you're going to be in a Treasury environment.

Challenges for treasurers, you know, what are the key things that you're thinking about? Not giving you awake at night? We're not going that far. But you know, what are the things, do you think that other people out there need to think about?

You know, I think with treasury, the main thing that I always say you need to be as systemic as possible. That doesn't mean you don't have people, but you need to be as systemic as possible in all your processes. The more systemic you are, the less mistakes there are that could happen. You know, a lot of times, you know, working in environments that are very manual, what blows up is process as manual. So for those treasury folks that are looking at treasury management systems, I advocated very, very much because you're able to manage your cash more systemically and more efficiently if you will. But I think you really gotta start looking what AI is bringing. I look at it as a tool, it's tool to make things more efficient. What can it do in Treasury? I think it's to be seen. Right, right. It really depends on, on the industry and how the industry is going to accept it in different things. And I think it's a slow moving progression on that. But I think the obstacles is really what you, it depends on your industry and how you're, you're doing it. I, I think you don't shy away from it. It's, you know, things are gonna, you're gonna happen and in the treasury world you have to become more digital and you gotta come with the times. If, if your Customers, you'll want to get paid a certain way. Well, you, you need to start looking at that and it's real. Right. And keeping your ear to the ground. So I, I think there's a lot, a lot of that, but I think systemic, that you're not systemic at this day and age. You're a little bit behind the times and not so much about being efficient, but also from a fraud prevention perspective. Right. The thieves out there are pretty smart and, you know, and you need to be try to get a step ahead of them as much as you can.

And you and I touched on before the show as well that you, you know, Ed, you talked about education there and people, junior people coming into treasury and obviously by, you know, implementing new technologies and AI and all these different things and people are still trying to learn about treasury or we're trying to tell people learn about treasury and that's one of the reasons we do the podcast, you know, to share the word of treasury with, you know, world of finance guys. Do you see that going away a little bit that, you know, obviously it's more difficult to maybe hear about treasury, you know, because as you said, you didn't hear about it necessarily at school and finance and stuff.

What are your thoughts? Yeah, I, I come back to like the day and age of people just falling into treasury because they needed somebody to manage a cash checking account, if you will. Yeah, you know, I'm not sure that is here to stay much longer. And I say, you know, next, you know, yeah, four, five, seven years on that. I, I think what's going to happen is, you know, treasury is going to be here because, you know, there's always going to be money to be managed. You know, what is that 20 years from now? Who knows? There's always going to be money to manage. I think what is going to happen more on the analyst level and there is, the person's going to have to be more strategic in, in their process of, in what they're bringing to the table. You know, it's not going to be just about punching widgets and, you know, and processing and getting cash positions done. It's going to be maybe a little bit about that, more systemic. You get it. The easier that's going to be. It's going to be okay, what, what do we do strategically? You know, what, how can I, how can I help the organization in, in an M and A or, you know, or, you know, a different transition on that or different debt deal, whatever it is. So some of the analyst work, you know, might be elevated from that perspective. And I think, you know it at that level, you're going to have to accept that, right? If you want to keep on that, you're going to have to accept that. It's not, it's not just about being. I got my normal routine every single day. Your routine could be, you know, done more systemic through AI on that. And listen, I've used it for a couple of tools, you know, more about revamping, wording on some stuff. And I think it's great. It surprise saves me a bunch of time. So I know, I know it's here. So if you're, you're willing to accept it, you're, you'll be, you'll succeed.

Yeah. In fact, I was just thinking about that when you and I talked about it. I was asked a legal question this morning and actually just someone before Christmas, they said, oh, you should have gone into a different career and stuff because they were asking me to check a legal contract and stuff. And no, I didn't check it. AI checked it. And I said, right, and said, look, go through this. And I still checked it. But the fact was said, look, tell me where the, where the weak points, where the programs, what do I need to do and look out for. And actually went back and forth, back and forth. And, and it was basically because they would bring up two or three things that I hadn't even thought about. One of the things was about the sharing of data between one. And I was just thinking, I'm not bothered about. Then they were going, we should be bothered. I'm like, actually, yeah, I should be. You know, it's just, and I would have overlooked that. That's where, you know, it helps you, doesn't replace you.

That's one of the key things, right? And I think that's, you have to be call it the spot checker. Does this look right? And, and I think that, you know, when you look at it, you know, from a Treasury perspective doing a bank wreck, you know, AI should be able to do that at some point, right? And be able to look at it and say, hey, that looks right. That doesn't look right. You know, I'll AI some things, you know, personally, just, you know, just. Or just to see things, I'm like, well, that's wrong. I know that's wrong because like, so it's not, it's not an exact science just yet, but yeah, I think you use it as a tool and you, it might catch things that you want to catch, right? And which is a good thing.

Treasury professionals, not, not early, you know, complete newbies and stuff, but people listening today, maybe they're analyst managers, you know, not quite treasury level things. Maybe it is. What mistakes do you think that you've made but or managed they should avoid or think about whether it's career or whether it's more subject. What are you thinking?

I think one of the, and I'll, I can personally speak from it. One of the things that I probably made mistakes. I didn't advocate for myself early on in my career, right. I felt and I, maybe I came from a time frame that, listen, you're not rocking the boat. You go with what opportunities present themselves and that's it. And I think that was, you know, that that was my mindset. Not that I take it now and say, oh, I'm banging on the door on this, but I think folks need to say, hey, I could do this, right? Yeah, or what about this? I know there's a need here, let me do that. Because one of the things I say, like everybody's very busy, right? Not everybody's thinking, hey, I know that Mike is an expert at this or Mike has done this. You got to say it. You got to, you know, be a little bit, you know, vocal on that and shout it out and, and then like your managers will say, oh, you know what? You know what? I didn't realize that, or I didn't, I didn't remember that you did an FX model or you did this model, you know, say, say it out loud. And you know, sometimes, you know, it's not that it's not the right time because it's just there's not a need for that, but when there's a need for that, you put that in person's head. So. But I think advocating for yourself, no matter what level you're at, is good. And it's not just about career progression either. It's about advocating yourself to be able to challenge yourself in something that you might not be such a dramatic expert, but it might expand your knowledge. And if there's a need in the organization for something that, you know, we don't have an individual to do, but it's like a, you know, a stretch assignment, if you will, try to do that. Hey, raise your hand, try to do that, and you might learn something. You might develop a bi model on the stuff that they needed and then great. And then that might present other stuff. But I think advocating for yourself is essential on that, but also at the right time, you know, sometimes it's not going to be at the right time. But you got it. You. You do have to do that. Is it during a review or one on one sessions?

Whatever it is, I think it'll be difficult. I mean, just. You mentioned that we do our newsletter, which then I do the weekly video and actually that is more an advocacy video for us, you know, to shout about the fact they got asked today, hey, you do lots in the us. Yes, I do. That's why I travel loads and, you know, and these and it. And I'm not doing it. But back at Christmas, someone said, oh, you're an influencer. I could give a stuff about that phrase. I'm doing it because I want to advocate for treasury professionals like you guys, who I've done 400 plus these podcasts. I find the treasury professional fascinating. And what you guys do, that's where it brings it to life. And that's why I do the videos. That's not just like, look at this. I mean, otherwise I wouldn't be doing them here in the shed and stuff like that. But it's, that's why we do it. I mean, I mean, you're gone.

Sorry. On that point, I, I gotta give you credit because, you know, earlier in my career, nobody. There was no treasury outlets, if you will, on this. And things that, you know, come up in your podcast, like, these are great informations that I, you know, or things I, I was like, oh, my God. That I didn't think of that. You know, maybe, yeah, you know, advocate or I didn't think about this. What I need to look at or look for on that. So, you know, credit to you to have that platform out there and then also to afp, right. You know what it's become, you know, what it was 20 years ago to what it is now. You know, people are shocked and like, oh, there's 5,000, 6,000 people there. I go, yeah, it's a, it's a huge.

Yeah, there were 8,000 this year. It was like crazy.

8,000. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Well, and also. And just on that, and it's just an interesting one. I, I remember I was giving a presentation at a J.P. morgan event and I said, do you know what? I used to be a good recruiter. They're like, all right, okay, look at you. And I mean, now I'm a bloody great recruiter. And they were like, what? Look at you, Mr. Like, no, because I've shared the stories of 400 of you. I've said, I've listened and I've like sort of downloaded this and I've spoken to you. And then I've done the live sessions. I've done this. So before I was pretty good, but that was seven and a half years ago. Now, every single week for seven years, you know, you can't but help but learn on things like this, which is, you know, grateful for the time and stuff. And other. Any other areas we haven't touched on. We're not going to go quite to the close of the show, but any other areas that you think the guys out there, that is maybe even on your checklist that we haven't really covered.

I think that no matter where you are in your career, you always have to keep on learning. You have to be, you know, and I. And I. I'm trying to learn every. Every day, you know, some. Some of the things I do. And downside, I got very fascinated, if you will, on the financial crisis. Right. So some of the things I've read on my, you know, downtime, it's about the financial crisis, reading Geithner's book or, you know, you know, a couple of the other. Other folks at that time. But it's just been to me, it's learning something that, you know, yes, I was a part of, but I wasn't at the heart of it and what happened there on that. So I. I think it's just keep on learning and keep on challenging yourself. Don't be, you know, stagnating in that because. And then it comes back to Treasury. I mean, like, if you're stagnant and you're like, oh, we got everything taken care of, nothing's gonna happen. You're gonna. Two things are gonna happen. You're gonna get passed by one thing, depending on your part of your career, or two, something's going to happen that you weren't prepared for. Right. And, you know, there is not to get specific, there's been situations in my career in treasury that coming back to operationally, I've been prepared for, my team's been prepared for. If a happens, we might. We could do BCD and all that, and we've been able to do that. And there's been a couple of instances like, hey, this happened. Happened with a vendor. We're prepared, right?

Yeah.

We'll move on forward, or here's our plan. Right. And that is. That comes back to learning, preparing. Hey, is this system the right system for us? If it's not, how we're going to get to that? And it's really, you know, keep on. And that comes back with learning and challenging yourself. So if you're, if you're stagnant, it's going to be a problem.

Yeah. Okay, so what we're going to do, going to wrap up as we do each and every week. You've heard this. We'll put your LinkedIn details in the show, notes, takeaways for the listeners. This is them having a coffee and going right. If they're early stage, mid stage, late stage. What are the, the key takeaways you get from today?

I think the key takeaways and some of the stuff that I, I talked about, you know, listen, you don't always have to be the smartest person, but it doesn't stop you from out working everybody on that. Just try and try to do that in the treasury aspect. Always have a forward thinking mindset. You know what, you know, what's upcoming, how can I plan for it, am I prepared for it? If I'm not prepared for it, how can I move forward? And I think for me it's always, you know, be transparent. Right. Transparent with your internal and external relationships as much as you can on that. And I think you'll, you'll benefit for that down the road.

Yeah. Amazing. Sir, great to see you. We see you in a couple of weeks time on a March event which will be fantastic to catch up and look forward to the downloads coming through. Thank you very much for your time today.

Fantastic. Well, thank you for having me, really appreciate it.

Thanks. Before you finish today's show, a quick reminder. You can earn CTP credits just by listening to the podcast, listen to the show, take a short online quiz, pass the quiz, gotta do that and then we'll send you CTP credits. This means you can recertify, which I know you have to do every two years and lots of people do it, it's so convenient. They do it whilst they're commuting there might be at the gym, walking the dog. We're there to help you. It's designed to fit around you and your real treasury jobs, not add more work to it. If you're already listening, you might as well get the credit for it. All you need to do, head to the episode page, take the quiz and as I say, as long as you pass, we will send you the CTP credits. I know, all part of the service. Thanks again for listening, we appreciate your support. See you soon.

Thanks.