Life as a Treasury Consultant with Paul Harrison

Hello, it's Mike Richards here from the treasury recruitment company. I hope you're enjoying the Treasury Career Corner. If you are great news, perhaps you'd give us a rating on itunes or wherever you consume your podcast content. This means that even more treasury professionals can benefit from finding out or by finding out about how treasurers have achieved their career goals. The link to rate our show will list at the bottom of our show notes. And please remember as well, the show itself is as much about you as it is about us. There are specific questions you want us to ask or there's feedback you want to give. Please drop me an email. My direct email is mikeresuryrecruitment.com inventively enough. But anyway, that's enough from me. Let's get on with the show. Welcome to this week's Treasury Career Corner podcast where I interview treasury professionals about their treasury careers. Each week I talk to treasurers about how they built their careers, where they are now, and where they see both themselves and the treasury profession. Going to next this week's show. I'm delighted. We're joined by a good friend of mine, Paul Harrison, the head of treasury advisory at Grant Thornton.

Good morning, Mike.

Good morning. Good morning, sir. Now, to give people who don't know Grant Thornton founded in Chicago back in 1924. He'll explain a bit more, but they're one of the for those again, some of the listeners that might not know Grant Thornton, one of the world's leading independent audit tax advisory accounting firms, if you like. Grant Thornton Massive 42,000 people across 120 countries. Revenues 1.7 billion. So pretty good. I'm surprised to let Paul in the door. You never know. I'm allowed to say that. So. Right. We're good mates, Paul, rather than, as I say, sometimes I give a big description. But why don't you describe your background? I mean, take us back and how you got your first start in maybe finance and then came into Treasury.

Okay, well, although I'm a Brit and you can probably hear that from my accent, I actually spent some time living in Australia. So I moved over to Australia in 1985 with my mother. I did my degree over there in business and economics and I actually moved back over here the beginning of 93 to do of all things and you knowing me quite well, this may even raise your eyebrows to do A probably a PhD in economics. For those that know me, it's about as far as you can imagine. So almost like saying I was going to be a rocket scientist the academic year in Australia runs concurrently with the calendar year. And so I came over here in sort of January 93 and had, you know, six or eight months to kill before I would have started the Masters. That would have led to the PhD. I got myself a job. My father lived in the Midlands and I got myself a job with a small bank up in Birmingham, which was subsequently subsumed into HSC and eventually hsbc after my time and I was there for four years. I went in as a graduate trainee and within literally six months was inserted pretty well on my own into what was somewhat euphemistically described as Treasury. And that led to me selling commercial paper to the brokers in London, managing syndicated and bilateral facilities. And then following that, a Treasury manager came in, a guy called Andrew Vaughan, who's now been at BAS for many, many years. And eventually there was three of us. I left that in 1997 and I moved down to London where I've been ever since. And I joined, and this shows you how long ago this was. I joined Grand Metropolitan, which was one of the two legacy firms that only a few months later formed Diageo along with Guinness, a drinks company.

What? A drinks company.

You're going to find that I've done most of the vices actually in a minute. But yes, Kel, surprise. I did that for a year and a half and actually was able to leave as part of the. I was given a free option. I was very, very lucky, I was told. I said to them I wanted to do an mba. I was working for a couple of guys who both done an MBA at about my age and they said, well, just go and see if you can get in. They were probably skeptical whether I could actually, frankly and rightly so, I did get in. I went to Citi and did an MBA in finance. I then joined Deloitte's and for a very short period of time was, I think what I can confidently say was possibly the world's worst treasury consultant. For a variety of reasons, let's just say my mind wasn't completely on the job and I moved straight from there to rail track four weeks before the Hatfield crash. So it was exciting times. I then moved after a year from there when rail track was being wound up to British American Tobacco. So there's the second vice from there. Unfortunately I was then made redundant. So you can, you can see my, my career is somewhat in this sort of four year period, three year period, albeit with an MBA in the midd or a somewhat concertina. So I've had a year Here a year, there a year the other place and so forth. I did a contract role and then at that point my career changed somewhat. In early 2004, I was very fortunate to be recruited by PwC. Now, the good news was that was I was recruited by PwC. Great name, great training and all the rest of it. The bad news was, and perhaps we can return to this, I had to take somewhat of a step back in terms of seniority and, crucially, money in order to do that. But I was at PwC for three and a half years and in that time I built up a small team that was doing treasury advisory, primarily into transactions, both pre and post deal.

So you've done some corporate treasury roles and then you made the move into consulting. Now, a lot of people say, you know, we discussed this when you very kindly came on our panel recently, Create a corner live, and there were a couple of other guys who had had exposure to. And consulting. And, you know, some of the audience listening will go, oh, consulting, you know, you know, that's a bit of sales in there. There's all these different things. Whereas they prefer working for one corporate and improving it and stuff like that. Why did you make a move? I mean, they, as you say, they approached you, but then. Or how did it come about and why did you go.

Actually, how it came about was, you know, there were. There were various options and PwC was one of them. I'd actually, when I joined Deloitte, I was also offered a job by PwC several years before as well. So I reconnected with the people that offered me a job then who I, you know, knocked back. So it was a bit cheeky, really, doing that anyway, one might say, and they interviewed me, they were looking anyway, and they took me on. But to answer your question more broadly, why consulting, it did interest me. It had always interested me, you know, and for the reasons that a lot of people give, which is that you get a very wide exposure to a lot of things, both from a technical perspective and from an organizational perspective and actually from a geographical perspective perspective as well. I mean, I've worked in a great many countries. I've done work in most Western European countries. Haven't been to Portugal on business, I'm afraid, and. Or possibly Luxembourg, I'm not sure I would know, but all of the Scandis, all of the Dutch countries, Spain, Italy, Greece, Turkey. I've also worked in Japan, India, Canada, various parts of the us and so it gives you that exposure to a lot of other stuff in a whole range of Areas. Now I get the argument with being in one place. One of the things of being in one place is that you get to specialize sometimes you also get to see something through a number of cycles, whether that's just time passing or whatever. The disadvantage, of course, you can get stuck in a rut. That rarely happens with consulting.

And with that, with that role of consulting, you say, you know, there's all those different varieties, but how do you balance that, you know, with your life really? You know, because you're having to travel, how do you manage that? Because a lot of people, again particularly, actually, I don't know why, you know, seems within Europe, maybe it's the manageable travel and things like that. But some of the guys I talked to in the US and let's give an example, there was a chap I was talking to a couple of years ago working for actually one of the larger consultancy companies which you mentioned. But we were joking at one stage I saw him at a conference and I said, surely you could just turn over your card and actually just write. Because he was telling me about some of the companies he'd worked for and it seemed he never been in the office and it was 80 travel and he had a wife and kids and eventually had to leave. He enjoyed the variety of the role. But how did you balance that and how did you balance that personal wise and stuff like that?

I think one of the ways you try to balance is it is by getting more senior.

Right.

So if I'm completely honest with you, quite a lot of the excess travel that people do, particularly this side of the pond, I think is done at the more junior level. I mean, a lot of the time the travel itself is overnight. So by the nature of a lot of the work I do, I'm going to Milan or Madrid or Stockholm or something like that for two days and one night or perhaps three days and two nights. That would have been clever, wouldn't it? But clearly, yeah, travel can be an issue and travel is an issue for a lot of people. And then quite honestly, even if you are traveling business class and or staying in reasonably nice hotels, the glamour as epitomized by sort of 1960s movies, sort of Pan Am and all the rest of it does pause quite quickly. But against that you are also getting to see some different parts of the world and some different organizations and people. If you want to work in a particular office the whole time, you can still sometimes do that with consulting, but it depends on what consulting you're going to do. So a lot of the deal based stuff can often be in house because there's a lot of analysis and a lot of work that you're going to do there. It really does depend on.

And you said that you built a practice there and was that forced upon you? You know, build a practice and everything else?

It sort of was. I mean I, to be clear, that was the time we're talking about was 12, 13 years ago. So I was much more junior in that sense. So I had a small team of people that largely did work for me. The person oversaw the whole practice then was a guy called David Stebbings, who a lot of people listening will know and perhaps David's listening. So David had worked very hard to build that practice up, in particular working in the transaction subsequently, then moved on to larger corporates. I think around the time I left PwC in 2007, you build up a business in that case, the clients were typically internal. The clients were typically the partners, the transaction partners at PwC. But while I was at PwC then towards the end of that time, I came across an organization who on the other side of a very large transaction called PMC. And I joined them in 2007, was there for 11 years, actually entirely last year DMC was and indeed I believe still is focused on treasury advisory, both hedging and consulting into the private equity market. So my role there was on what we call the operational treasury side. So that meant working with typically private equity sponsors and their portfolio companies to either establish a Treasury function from scratch, particularly in a carve out situation, or to use rather consulting language, make it fit for purpose in a leveraged environment. So that leveraged environment, what that's really focusing on then is making sure that the organization's short term cash flow forecasting works well, that it can manage its effects and its exposure to that because the organization is typically less resilient, fix up any holes in the banking that may arise from a transaction and then finally I think just making sure that the organization can manage a new debt facility. So I did that for about 11 years and the last few years I was looking after a quarter of the business really which is the operational treasury side for Europe and that went quite well. I built that up quite substantially. Prior to that I'd worked with and for a guy called Michael Haken who had done that role previously and he retired a couple of years ago and very much was a mentor for me then. But then I joined Grant Thornton last year.

But before you move to Grant Thornton, let's look at the Transition PwC to PMC just changing a couple of letters. PwC global accounting firm business walking through the door. You know, as a result a lot of the time of maybe an audit or a review or anything else, the business just sort of is brought up to your door and not 100% but you know, stuff like that. And then you've joined in some ways not a startup but more established company, but at the end of the day not a PwC global mega major. How, you know, how did that change your role and what was that like? Actually, you know, having to fight for.

Business as it were, changed the role substantially. I mean there were a number of reasons for moving. One was that with joining PMC I was going to be specializing in treasury consulting and in particular area that I now knew quite well. Whereas at PwC certainly then I can't speak for now or indeed the time, the intervening period, they were very much moving towards a model whereby you became much more of a general finance consultant, which frankly I didn't want to do. It wasn't where I said I know what I know. It was more it wasn't what I wanted to do. So to pick up on your point about business and making sure that you get the right amount of business in that was actually quite pleasing as well. Because at PMC you were encouraged to over time to begin to build your own relationships with private equity sponsors and with CFOs. If I think of my client base today, my client basis is pretty well exclusively. There are some group treasurers, but it's pretty well exclusively a CFO or other senior but general finance person depending on the organization and or the the investment director or portfolio partner at a private equity sponsor. I now have some relationships at those organizations that date back 10, 12, 14 years. And that's very interesting and very exciting and I think what it does also bring up, and I think this topic came up in the meeting, the presentation that we panel presentation we all attended a few days ago. One of the other concerns that people often have with consulting, in addition to potentially having to travel and somewhat disconcerting nature of change is this idea of selling. So when I was having a quick beverage afterwards with several people, more than one of them came up and said, well, how do you manage the selling? It's the selling that I would hate. And I think there's somewhat of a misnomer there because the concept of selling in that context implies that you're getting on the phone and you're almost sort of inviting people to purchase double glazing from you those family portraits and so forth. Photograph portraits, when in actual fact, it's not really like that. It's primarily about relationships. So it's about putting together a compelling offering to people. So knowing what you're talking about, having the resources, having some credibility there and then building up a relationship with somebody over time whereby you obviously then build a track record, but you clearly are understanding what they are looking for. That's quite different from selling lollipops.

That was one of the things just for again, anyone who's listening. So Paul very kindly stepped in and was a guest. We ran the first ever Treasury Career Corner live event here in London. Got three treasurers, I got Greg Koza from Vanquish Bank, I've got Connor Ma from rbs and Paul very kindly joined us from Grant Thornton. And what happened was I interviewed the three guys that all been on the podcast, what Paul was about to do his today and we talked about their careers. We talked exactly as I said at the start of the show, how they got to where they are. And we got into various issues. And this was one of the things about consulting and that's why, you know, it was an education event. So it wasn't just a, you know, very technical event and things. We got a lot of treasury analysts, treasury managers, treasury dealers in the audience to sort of coach them. And exactly as Paul says, that was to sort of dispel some of the myths because sometimes those guys, you know, were going, oh, I don't want to be a sales guy. Exactly as you say. Well, it's not, it's actually, you know, professional services, you know, it's, it's actually, you know, we can deliver change or help you with that as well. And I think it worked rather well, don't you? I mean, I do, I do.

I mean, it's always difficult to evaluate from that side of the podium, of course. But yes, I felt it went well. And yeah, we had an interesting range of questions both during the main part of the event and following it. And it was interesting to hear some people's perspectives on that side. It was also interesting to hear that, you know, there were some people who again were thinking, why would I do this and why wouldn't I? In a way that clearly, you know, I had quite a few years before and to hear what their perspectives were and what their decision making criteria are.

Just going back on a point you made there, Paul, you talked there about you develop these relationships with CFO's responses. One thing I think is perhaps to maybe highlight on this Because a lot of the time, a lot of the listeners to this show will be treasury professionals, rightly so, but it's a similar thing that I face that. For instance, I'm in the process of a lot of my treasurers say, oh, have you got any more treasury roles? I'd like a big treasurer role, please. Da, da, da. And I said, well, the problem is I have these amazing relationships with you treasury guys. Well, this is what the podcast is about. That's fantastic. But a treasurer doesn't necessarily always recruit their replacement. I need to have some really great relationships. So any CFO you listening, please call me. But we're joking aside, we're actually putting together, in fact, I'm doing this with case Studies for a CFO's guide to recruiting your next treasurer. And that's not trying to give some advice about what they might think about how to create a job description, what the treasury market is like and all that advice. Now when you talk there, you talk about having relationships with CFOs and with sponsors. That's not at the cost of relationship with the treasurers, is it? It's more they're part of the transaction deal and you'll then help a treasurer split to one side of it. Or how would you describe those relationships you have with those guys?

Well, really, I mean, there's several strands there. So I have a close relationship with a number of treasurers, but they operate on what we call a panel basis with and for me. So I have a relationship with about 10 senior interim panel freelance treasurers who sometimes dip in and do some permanent work for a few years. But in the case of a couple of them, they've worked with and for me for almost 10 years. So I have a relationship with a number of them anyway. With others with the treasury market, where you are talking to group treasurers, one of the issues for them will be, well, why would I use a consultant when my CFO is going to say, can't you do it? And so their response to that will be, well, either we will use a consultant where we just don't have the bandwidth to get something done, or alternatively where we need some particular advice in particular area. I mean, the most obvious one there is treasury system, but there are others. And certainly most organizations get the concept of doing requests for proposal, but they aren't always necessarily not particularly OK with actually putting one together. But the other reason why my relationship is quite often with the CFO or the private equity sponsor is because apart from the fact that they're often the person making the decision with. A lot of the organizations I deal with, whilst they have a requirement for treasury services, whether those are banking, cash management, FX etc. They don't necessarily have the requirement for a Treasury function. And particularly in a private equity environment, once the business is bought and settled down, a lot of its financing and hedging requirements are sort of set for the next two, three, four years. And so a lot of the incremental work that will keep a, shall we say a fully qualified and experienced treasurer keep he or she happy doesn't necessarily exist. So quite often my market then is not just in competition with, because not usually it's more than my actual. The requirer of the services I'm going to provide is that CFO as you.

Described, you were working PMC with all these different groups and you thought, I know, let's go to Grant Thornton, establish a new treasury consulting practice, or, you know, how did that come about? And you're back into it. Talk us.

Well, yeah, I've moved to, as you say, a much larger firm. So Grant Thornton, Grant Thornton Thornton itself is not going to pretend that it's at the same size and scale as PwC and the other big four, but it's also not a million miles away in the uk. Grant Thornton and BDO are about the same size. I think BDO is now just slightly bigger again because they've made an acquisition of a smaller firm. But we're both sort of level pegging at number five and typically just under half the size of the smallest of the Big Four here in the uk, which I believe at the moment overall is kpmg. We offer a whole range of services, as you articulated. I'm not going to go through all that again. I had formed a relationship with Grant Thornton over several years where I firstly knew several people. It's a small world who had moved there and were and are there as partners. And I went to them and said, look guys, you know, you don't have a Treasury advisory practice at all, or at least it's not as far as I can see from your website. How about we at PMC help you with that? That went well. We did a couple of pieces of work that they'd referred and they started to talk to me, me. We started to have a discussion about would I contemplate moving to Grant Thornton. Now, that was a process that took quite a while. I had some equity at PMC and I had some long standing relationships and loyalty there, but decided to leave towards the end of 2017. Left in March last year and joined Grant Thornton after a short break in May. I think what's more important with Grant Thornton is that their offering to me was very open ended, very entrepreneurial and giving me an awful lot of autonomy to get on with it and just do it. So my brief was what you might call a greenfield site job. So they said, we're going to support you in whatever that means, where we'll refer clients, we'll provide you with marketing backup, we'll provide you with junior staff as and when required, etc. Etc. And we'll also just give you some time to get on with it. And that's what they are doing and it's been great. It's a lovely organization, lovely people, lovely culture. By and large. It's an organization that's going places and I think it has a strong and growing brand which resonates with. I can speak from personal experience with a lot of my now and future clients.

What do you enjoy most about not treasury, but Treasury Consulting? Why has this kept you, you know, why has this gripped you? Why has it kept your interest?

Well, it sounds quite sad, but one of the reasons why I quite like, because it is client led, you actually do get quite a lot of satisfaction out doing a good job and having the client happy. Now that can sound a bit fluffy and I do acknowledge that. But when you do a good job and you know that you've delivered something well, that can be very satisfying. You know, we're not going to quite say when you've helped somebody because that makes it sound particularly altruistic and because clearly we earn a fee and that makes that work well. But yeah, I think part of the joy of consulting can be assisting a client to work through a problem or a challenge that they have. And I get an awful lot out of that, frankly.

Okay, flip side, I remember this ever since the lovely Chris Hill, now I think he's CEO actually over at Hoggs Lansdowne. And I actually placed him originally as the treasurer, came out of Arthur Anderson, placed him as the treasurer of GE Insurance.

Yep.

Later became Gemworth and things and. But when I did, I sort of had. I remember having vividly first ever real insight into consulting. I said, you know, only similar to you. He told me about some of the things he really enjoyed about it at the time. So what do you hate about it? What do. You said, Ah, right, the glass room. I said, right, okay. Said, yeah. So you're the consultant, you've delivered this piece of work and then in the sort of the world. They make you then stand outside this room and you walk through these glass doors and they get together with the treasury team and they all toast some, you know, get some champagne. They all toast it. Oh, haven't we done a great thing? This is a great recommendation. And you look through door number one, you don't get any of the champagne. Oh, yes, all right, I can live with that. I can go buy my own stuff. But you've then helped them, and they round in the middle, this cake, this cake that you've created, help them create. And it's an amazing cake of, you know, this treasury wonderfulness. And you think, oh, my God, this is great. And they go, do you know what? That's fine, but no one's making us do that. They then either throw the cake in the bin, say, now you're right, thanks. Actually, you know, we've done our consulting bit, we don't need it. Or. Or they take one of the slices of the cake and they put the other two either up on the shelf and say, we'll do those later, or chuck them in the bin, or there's another cake at the other end. Said, actually, we don't like that cake. We're not bothered with that one. That's a bit too expensive, that cake. We go for the cheaper ones down here. And all of these were describing the frustrations he sort of felt, or could see that could come out of delivering a piece of work. And then people have said before with our business, it'd be great business if only you didn't have to deal with the cloud, the clients are a lifeblood and everything else. That joking all aside, at the end of the day, how do you deal with that? Or have you had experience of that yourself?

Yeah, I don't use a cake analogy. Sometimes the analogy can be more that you make the meal, there was still food, isn't it? You don't get to eat it, and everything else. My difficulty is not so much that. My difficulty is that sometimes take a step back, sometimes you'll have a meeting for a couple of hours with the client and. And at minute 90, you're still not at the point where you really fully understand what you think the problem is, let alone what the solution is. And you're thinking, oh, my goodness. And occasionally you don't ever get it, and so they'll criticize you and so on and so forth, but you usually do. And that can be very satisfying. Where it isn't satisfying and where it can be is sometimes when, for whatever reason, this doesn't happen often the client will sort of accuse you of. Of bad faith. It's as though either A, you deliberately didn't do a good job and that rarely happens, or alternatively, sometimes I'll even have this idea that if they'd only paid a little bit more, you would have got out this special silver bullet that you had in your pocket that you were holding back on until they pay that bit more to you. And none of those are the case, by and large. You want to help somebody solve their problem, earn a fee and move on to the next piece of work. The comment about the cake and the client and this job would be great with a that client is true. And clearly the flip side of helping people is that you've got to help them and sometimes people should we say, will play the client prerogative rather more than they should do. That's human nature but doesn't make it any better.

We talked before the show that Paul's actually building up the team and we can, you know, helping there and various other bits. But your ethos around recruitment, you've obviously grown up with it.

You.

We talked actually when we did the panel the other day about qualifications and some of the versus experience and what some of the different people on the panel, you know, valued. But when you're in recruitment mode, as it were, obviously, as we say, we're on the treasury recruitment company, this is us hosting the podcast. As I said, what's your ethos around recruitment? What do you look for with people?

Firstly, remembering that I'm not looking to. In almost all situations, I'm not looking to recruit at a graduate trainee level so I'm usually looking for somebody who's got probably a few years of experience and actually I'm typically in my situation looking for someone with somewhat of either the background or would like to have background that I have had. In other words, I'd rather have somebody who has some treasury experience who's considering consulting rather than someone who's just a consultant because as long as you can iron out some of the rough edges that inevitably come from only working in a corporate corporate whilst retaining the deep skills that you'll get, that to me is a better combination in terms of qualifications. I'm. I mean, I'm talking as someone who's got a degree, an MBA and I'm a. I was an MCT by examination. I clearly don't discount education but I'm also interested in the individual and just. And it's a very intangible thing and that sort of spark that sort of potential, the aptitude, the attitude, rather than just quals. I've had an. Number of situations over the years where, you know, being desperate to see a particular individual on the basis of their cv and then when you see them, you're not quite sure how they managed to find their way into the office for a variety of reasons. And similarly, I've had several CVs pushed towards me by including your good self, where you've largely seen them on the basis of cajoling by Michael. And I've been really glad that I have.

I wonder where that was going then. I was like, that bit's gonna have to be edited out.

So. No, but I'm not sure it should be edited out, actually, Mike, because it's true, you know, it's great to have that spark and that's what I'm looking for. It's an aptitude and certainly a guy we both know, who I'm talking about, who's French, who you introduced me to a few years ago, had that spark and certainly more than delivered on that particular potential.

As we wrap up today's show and you very kindly, if people want to connect with Paul, you can get his LinkedIn link for his profile in our show notes, so we'll put that in there. And he said that you'd be happy to connect with people if it's obviously relevant and everything else. But, Paul, we asked this at the panel the other day, and I'll ask you today to perhaps, on your own terms, describe for the guys, if they come along and they say, right, I've got Paul's background, actually, that seems quite interesting. I'd like a background like that that sounds a sort of. The sort of role or the sort of career that I would like to replicate and things like that. Now, looking back across it, you've done a variety of things, but what would you. What advice would you give to those guys and say, right, this is what you. You perhaps need to do or need to think about.

I think. I think the word of advice, which always makes you sound like you're just sort of the grandfather with sweets or something like that.

Yeah, we're not far off it.

Well, no, no, quite. Unfortunately, I think the thing I would would say to people is, firstly, your career inevitably is not going to go in a diagonal. Things are going to go better than they should at times and they're going to go less well than they should at times. So said, I've absolutely been made redundant once and I was pretty well made redundant another time. When there was at Deloitte's, you know, but that was where I was particularly useless then, as I say. What I would say though is when, not if, when you have a career, should we say challenge, Try to think about it positively and recognize that it's quite possible that this challenge is going to work out in a good way. And also to recognize that sometimes you need to perhaps go backwards to go forwards. When I left bat and there was a short gap and then I moved to PwC, I took a cut in both pay that was a substantial one and seniority to move there. Once I was at PwC, I went through an incredibly uncomfortable period where my, my report writing had to be shredded and started again and my understanding of a whole range of different areas and things were challenged and refocused. What I came out of with all of that though was I was a much better and more competent person. One of my favorite gags about myself is that I'm better now, or rather not as good now as I thought I was 20 years ago. Now it's largely a reflection of what I thought I was 20 years ago, which was there was a bit of a, shall we say, an ability to self awareness gap. But you know, you get better but sometimes you get better by having some of those challenges. Go back sometimes to go forward.

Great advice. Yeah, there you go. We try and finish maybe on a catchphrase sometimes go back to go forward. That's it. One step, two steps back, one step forward. I like it.

That's good.

Paul, delight as always to talk to you. You'll see guys on the show Notes connect with Paul via his LinkedIn profile. Just leaves me say, Paul, thank you for a great show. Really enjoyable to talk to you and look forward to the future.

Thank you. Talk to you soon.