Making Smart Treasury Technology Choices with Anshul Patni

Foreign.

Welcome to this week's Treasury Career Corner podcast where I interview treasury professionals.

About their treasury careers.

Each and every week I talk to them about how they've built their careers, where they are now, where they see both themselves and the treasury profession going to next. Let's get on with the show.

This week's show, delighted to be joined by Anshul Patny, the treasurer at Instacart. Instacart, probably you guys all know it, they're the leading grocery technology company in North America, working with grocers and retailers, basically transforming how people shop. The company partners with a number of different brands right the way across, helping facilitate online shopping, delivery, pickup services right the way across North America on the Instacart Marketplace. Now I'm going to get dig into that a little bit later on in the show and Ansha will tell us about his role there and everything else. But if you would, Ansh, take us all the way back. I know it's a few years ago now, but it's all right to how you first started in the world of finance and then treasury because we've got some lovely stories to share with some of the listeners today. So over to you, sir.

Thank you, Mike and thank you again for having me on this podcast. Well, it's been a while, about 15 years back. In fact, if I go back to my school year years, I would go back to the college when I was doing bachelor in economics, very interested in knowing about micro and macroeconomics of the world and very relevant at all point of time even, even now with everything that's happening with the macroeconomic headwinds. I knew it's a great start but did not know what to do with my career at that point of time. Thought about what's the next step. Did well, do I go into economics, are there enough career options or do I do mba, which opens different lines of finance for me. So that's where I think I got some idea that that's what I want to pursue and was very clear that that's an area of finance and international business is what I wanted to focus on during MBA and was very focused on different areas, whether it's portfolio management, equity analysis. But one of the key areas that even while studying it was highly relevant and something I thought I could do well was foreign exchange, risk management, interest rate hedging. Was very intrigued about how to how do corporate professionals actually manage it. Whether it's professionals or companies, how are they managing it at that point of time? During second year of my mba I got an opportunity to do internship with Ernst and Young at that point of time with their firm in India. Great opportunity. Learned how they were managing their foreign exchange risk. They had certain strategies in place, really learning about it and then also trying to give my viewpoint as to how that can help them. It was a great opportunity for me to learn about how companies practically manage their hedging risk. In fact, at that point of time when I did that internship, I got nominated for the best internship during that year in my college, actually won that award successfully. So that kind of gave me this feeling that this, this is the world I want to go in into finance. There were several companies when I was applying for jobs during my MBA that were coming into my campus. But my focus was very clear. I wanted to get into risk management. At that point of time I got an opportunity, Mike, to work with Reval, which now is actually part of Ion trading. They, at that point of time used to do derivatives, risk hedge accounting. They had a software for that and I worked with them for about five years. Great opportunity. Worked with them for about two to three years or actually about three years in India, then moved to the US In New York. Wonderful opportunity to work with all the big companies to name some of them. Working with companies like Coca Cola, ge, Anheuser Busch, Starbucks. Great opportunity. Learning how they are managing their portfolio, providing them advice in difficult matters when it comes to FX risk management, interest rate, hedging or even how do they manage based upon FAS and IFRS based requirements for hedge accounting. Wonderful learning over the years there working at Reval, I felt at that point of time that I need to broaden my horizon. And I'll also talk about this later during this interview that something that treasury professionals should continue to look at, is there something more they can learn? And I wanted to then think about how treasury is actually managing their cash. How are they thinking about capital structure?

I just want to jump in. I know Reval and I've known it since the days of JIRO and everything else. Can you just explain to the audience if you like. Now, whilst you and I both know the company very well, you know, Rebal was a hedging system. If you know your, you know, you can perhaps explain it better to the audience because obviously as you say, it was then taken over when you were there, you were, you know, looking after their hedging and the accounting matters for lots of different companies where you. But can you just explain to people you know, because it wasn't a Treasury systems company, if you like, you Know got the Kyribas and everything else. It was far more specific. Can you again for the listeners, some will know the name very well. I do, but some of them don't. So how can you explain that for us?

Yeah, absolutely. So Reval, when they started, when Jiro who was the CEO at that point of time, he built a company which or a software which could not only do the derivatives mark to market valuations, but could do hedge accounting. Which means companies wanted to elect hedge accounting. They can actually pass certain gain and unrealized gains and losses to other comprehensive income. And this product was one of its kind, especially in the North American market, at least between 2010 and 2016 when there were not other TMS who used to do hedge accounting like Karibas and FIS. They actually provide those solutions now. But Reval had that product advantage at that point of time. And my role Mike was focused on a team called Reval center which was acting as a Treasury team for different clients. Companies which had very small portfolio or did not have enough people in their treasury teams. They would come to Reval to look at their portfolio, make sure we are actually managing their middle office and back office responsibilities which included mark to market valuations, month end close and doing hedge accounting. So pretty much once the traders have executed the trades, managing the whole trade life cycle and accounting from there on. And that is where the experience was highly relevant. Understanding how companies could use different hedging strategies, what could work in different markets like could you do plain vanilla forwards, could you do some FX options and what could accounting allow you? So Reval as a product was great and for me the learning was even more useful because opportunity to work with different big multinational corporations came through working.

With Reval and as you said, you spend that period of time with them and that provided a springboard if you like, if that's the right way into your next role. Can you maybe talk through how that happened and things?

Absolutely. This was 2012 when I think I knew enough about hedging. Spent five years by that time with Reval, learned a lot with respect to risk management and I wanted to broaden my horizon. Really do still wanted to remain in consulting at that point of time, but wanted to focus on other areas. How companies assess their treasury, how can they transform it with respect to whether it's cash management, doing M and A deals or capital markets. And that's where I got an opportunity, Mike, to work with Deloitte. I spent about eight years with Deloitte at that point of time between 2012 to 2020, very good experience. And I think an advice that I would also give to young treasury professionals that if you get an opportunity to work with, sometimes with consulting firms, you get an opportunity to work with different kind of companies. You can really see end to end. How are they managing their process? How can you really help them transform? One of the first projects, Mike, that I did was with Coca Cola, which was doing a big treasury system implementation. At that point of time they were implementing Wall Street Suite, which is another ion trading product, and they were implementing that solution for different entities all over the world. Very, very complex project and really required you to understand how they are managing their process right now. They were mostly manual or using SAP at that point of time, helping them understand what would a new solution do to you, how does it really impact you in terms of your resources and operations you're managing and really getting them through that implementation, whether very complex tasks, but how it helped was really helping them break down into different milestones and solutions to make sure that they can achieve what they were looking for as their end goal. And even now my, as I look at my career, that's what I try to do with different priorities that we have, make sure that we are looking at in the right direction. What is important for us, is it optimizing cash, is it investment? And really helping down with respect to making sure that we are looking at from the right lens. So I think from Deloitte's perspective, great experience. I got a chance to work both in the US and Canada. I'll talk about some of the experience in Canada where I worked with the firm for about one and a half years there. It was an international assignment and it was more about helping them set up their treasury team. Deloitte at that point of time in Canada did not have any treasury professional. So helping them think about what kind of market is it, what kind of team structure that we need and really pitching to the clients how Deloitte can help you. So I think that experience was again immense in terms of making sure you are learning, you are working with different clients. And some of the clients that I worked with, like I talked about, Coca Cola, hp, I was involved with HPE when they were actually doing separation of the firms, initially when they were HP and then two different firms got created between HPI and hpe, helping them think about how would the different treasury structures look like. And again from all the process that are involved in treasury, whether it's capital markets, whether you have interest rate, FX rate, risk management, how would the cash management work? For two different companies and what kind of team structure you need helping them think about is the current banking structure the right for you or do you need to think about new banking partners now that your geographical entities could be changing and that would also have impact on how you would like to operate. So really I think that experience over about eight years working with Deloitte, I joined there as a senior consultant, got promoted to senior manager, had responsibilities for both doing sales for the companies as well as managing such long term projects was very valuable in terms of helping me get through where I am right now.

And, and Sean, can I ask the. You know, and we've explored a little bit on some of the previous podcasts when I've had a number of treasury professionals who are now in corporates or then some of them were in consulting firms themselves in a similar way to yourself, how do you balance out the sales and being pushed towards a sort of sales route? And right, you've got to sell a piece of work and you've got to deliver this and you've got to do that delivery model because it's different to when you're in corporate treasury, you're working for the corporate, whereas as you say, you're working for Deloitte who are providing their services but they want to get value for money as a client and everything else, that balance, if you like, you know, those scales, delicate balance between delivery but also right, where's the next piece of work going and everything else. And obviously you were, you know, became more senior and that must have been a challenge. How do you deal with that, would you say?

Yeah, Mike, that's a great question. And I think including me, a lot of people struggle with initially in terms of what to do now that you're getting promoted, the focus is not just on delivery, but also sales. How do you help the company with that? I think it's important to understand at that point of time what are you really good at? What is the area that you would like to own within treasury and that's what having a right mentor also helps you. Thankfully I did have few people who I could talk from different point. They knew what are my skillset, what am I strong at. So given that I had a lot of experience with risk management when I came through Reval, I knew technology well as well. So my focus, talking to my peers as well as my leadership, was that I should focus on clients who are focused on managing their risk, improving them with their hedging practices as well as focus on technology. Am I really good at Kariba Yes, I am. I know Reval, I know a few other solutions. So. So I think at that point of time that's where I made a niche for myself at Deloitte. And then I knew what I needed to focus on in terms of clients conversation because when you have delivered it for over the time, you kind of understand that some of the problems could be very similar and then really helping them drive through those conversations. I think when you're selling, it's not about really generating sales or getting the revenue, it's more important thing is to understand what the client is struggling with, how you can help them. Because if you try to bring a solution to them rather than bringing a sales pitch, they understand that this person really wants to help you and that really becomes key point in terms of you helping them, not just in short term, but in long term with different opportunities that come up. So I think Mike, knowing what I wanted to do was important there, then it was more about focusing on it. And the key area that I would focus on is if I am trying to bring in a client with a long term engagement through sales, I would try to be on the delivery model as well because the client's trust is in me as I was involved in the sales process. And if they see that person is linked to the whole implementation cycle, they know that they have the right trusted partner whom they can go to. So I think that's what I would advise to other treasury professionals, especially who have been in consulting space or aspire to, that it's not just about sales, but it's also about how you support the client through that end to end engagement.

And with your experience of, if you look back now maybe at your experience as a Deloitte consultant and you were walking into a number of different treasuries and I'm not specifically talking about Coke or HP and things like that, but when you came into a consulting gig, you know, when you coming into an assignment again, this is for some of the maybe more junior consultants because you grew in your experience there seven and a half years and everything else with that. How did you coach the other members of the team? Or if you're in a situation where you're walking in the door, it's a fresh assignment maybe a bit later on in your career. This is, you know, maybe before you made the last move, what would you say that those consultants need to think about, you know, when they're helping a client? Thinks what's your checklist if you like.

Yeah, no, I think one of the key things that helped me at that point of time was being very flexible and keen to learn different areas that are coming to you initially. When, especially when you're new in your career, you may not get the top layer work of the project. You may start with something that is more of a filler work at that point of time. But that is again, important for you to understand that this is bringing different skills in you, whether it's project management, whether it's making sure that you're delivering key aspects of the project at that point of time, and then as you are learning, learn and focus on different things. I would advise the consultants that if you are a cash management expert, not just focus on that, learn about technology, because you cannot do anything without technology during this time in the world, especially that we are working in an environment where we do not go as much into the office as well as if you know cash management, you learn about technology, you learn about risk management, you learn about capital markets. So that is where I would say, for a person who's new in the career, don't just focus on one part of treasury, rather be knowing different skills, because that's what really helps you drive and get you the next opportunity. If I, as a corporate treasurer is looking to hire someone in my team, Mike, I have a very small team right now. If I need someone, I would rather have someone who has done some work in all different areas of treasury rather than a person focused on one specific aspect. Because we pretty much have to do everything on our own and we are still in the process of improving our banking and technology infrastructure. So that's where having holistic knowledge of treasury becomes very important.

I was going to talk about you making the move to die bolt and stuff, but before we do that, 2020, January 2020, you made the move across. So where did it sort back up with regards to Covid and Pandemic and everything else? Obviously that's a, you know, I don't want to get deep into Covid. You know, we're moving past that now and there's these new ways of working with my colleague in an hour about it and you know, on another podcast, you know, what was it like for you? How did that affect you with consulting and everything else? It's still on everybody's lips.

Yeah, absolutely. 2020 was very interesting time, as we all know, especially with respect to making the move at that point of time. And personally, my where I was at that point of time felt that I needed to spend more time with family, have a young daughter and wanted to spend More time with her and my wife. That was one of the key drivers to think about switching to Diebold Nixdorf at that point of time. And there was that nervousness with respect to what's going on in the world during pandemic. How it could impact different companies, what could be relevant versus what may not be relevant after a pandemic was a key part to think about. But I did switch, make that switch. Decided to join as a director at Diebold nextdoor. I think very rewarding in terms of career experience. What I learned through treasury consulting with working with four different clients really helped me shape the vision as I joined Diebold. Diebold is a very global company. It probably operates in more than 80 countries in the world. And initially when I started I was very focused on FX and interest rate risk management. Before my role got broader into other aspects of tragedy. We were having some very high challenges with respect to managing the FX risk. We were operating in Latin America as well as in some Asian markets. And with FX risk being very volatile, we needed to think about rather than being more static in terms of hedging, adopt an approach which was more of a risk management model base. So we decided to use value at risk models so that we can try to correlate our hedges in terms of how those would work and really come up with the model that could work for the company. And at that same point of time, another key aspect of working at DBOLD was we were able to refinance some of our long term debt with respect to changes in interest rate at that point of time. So that's an opportunity that Mike I had not worked at Deloitte, I worked with the treasurer at that point of time. It was a very long term project in terms of making sure what we are doing for the company is the right structure from the capital structure perspective. I think what we did was create we were able to refinance at a very attractive rate, especially in the market that we were in. So really, really proud of what we did in terms of making sure that our treasury was operating in a way that helps the company and then I think finally helping the company at that point of time automate all their treasury process. We were pretty manual at that point of time. So helping get all our FX risk, interest rate, risk hedging hedge accounting into Kariba. As a tms we had issues with our netting and in house banking process. Those were further automated using Kariba. So I think really key learnings and making sure that the team delivered some of the goals that we had Set up with my treasurer, talk us through.

The next couple of moves to bring us up to date with Instacart things and how you got there.

Yeah, absolutely. After working with Diebold, I spent some time with Deloitte again in terms of consulting. It turned out to be relatively short move because this great opportunity came up with Instacart and I was offered an opportunity to work as a treasurer of the company. As Mike, you described earlier during this podcast. Instaguard is a company which is transforming how people do their groceries with respect to not just helping them during Pandemic, but becoming a relevant lifestyle in terms of how people want to shop. The opportunity came up for me to lead the treasury team. We did not have any treasury professionals at that point of time and where we are, we are a late stage private company looking to go for an IPO when the timing would be right. It seemed like an opportunity where I could use all my experience that I had during my consulting days, really think about what is right for the company in terms of treasury structure, how can we better manage our process and also think about what kind of team structure do I need to create. Now my six months into this role, we are a team of three professionals. Still a relatively small team, hopefully will grow up further next year, but already some key opportunities that we have started working on. We have started thinking about do we have the right banking structure. We operate, Mike, mainly in the US and Canada region, but we also have some operations in Australia and China. So want to think about as we grow further in future, is the bank that we are working with going to support us with the right structure in place, do we also need to think about how we manage our payment aggregators? So there is a lot of work that's required there and then also thinking about what is the right capital structure for this company that we can have as we grow further. I think a lot of rewards in terms of working with this company, in terms of what you could do as well as helping them shape what would be the right vision for the company is what I'm getting here.

One of the things I wanted to ask there actually is I know that a number of my clients have actually used the podcast that I've done with them to sort of attract staff or to explain to them about why come and join you and things you know, with welcome join Instacart. So feel free to use it. But when you're doing that, where would you see the treasury team and department for Instacart developing to you? You've Seen. The great thing is you've seen a number of different other treasury teams. You've seen what's good, not so good, you know, you've judged it, you know, we don't have to name names, that's fine. The good thing is you've seen that, you know, with yourself, what would you be thinking about? And again, for someone's coming in and you're presenting Instacart the future, how would you explain that to the people?

Yeah, I think, Mike, when I hired my team initially, I think the great thing about where we were, everything needs to be done. We did not have any treasury policies in place or process in place. When I hired a senior manager in my team very recently, it became an easy fit because there's a lot of work to be done. And when I hire someone, I also look at in a similar way, is the person motivated, does the person have passion to work for several years in Treasury? So I think that was a. That was a key pitch at that point of time, really telling the candidates that, well, there is a lot to be done. We have to think about our banking structure, we have to think about automation, we have to create treasury policies and procedures and then as we grow, there is more to come with respect to FX and capital markets. So that delivers that message to the candidates, that this is a role which will continue to have responsibilities, which will continue to grow as we move along and as Instacart grows further into international markets. And I think that will become highly relevant because treasury team is the one that provides a strategic vision to the finance organization, how we can manage cash, if we need to acquire certain companies, what we need to do in that sense. So I think it was key, from my perspective, to make sure that I'm delivering the right message, which is, to be honest with you, all the truth, because there's a lot of work to be done. But then that really becomes rewarding for the person because that gives you the recognition when that work signals is being delivered.

I know, again, we spoke before the episode that, you know, so which areas you really passionate about. And one of the key things you just touched on there is technology. So you've got this real strand of technology all the way through you, your experience and utilizing it. But I've just, you know, returned from a number of different conferences and, you know, I'll be in the room and there's so many different providers and they're all different sizes, different cost structures, different ways. If I was to ask you, you know, when you, when you're at those and they're sort of deluging you. It's quite funny because you'll be like, look guys, I've done your job, I've stood at your stand when you're doing it, what are you assessing? And again this is to try and give some of the listeners a bit of advice really that they walk into there. What should they be thinking about or what should they be avoiding? If you like, you know, because you've been, you've seen behind the curtain. So what are you looking at?

Absolutely. Mike, I was in the same conference in the US as you were attending a few months back and really the number of vendors have grown up. But I think your point, it is very important that I, as a Treasury professional, I'm looking at what are my business process, what is the requirement of my company. And then don't just go by the name of the different products, really see what is relevant for you. Do you really need a full blown system which has very good functionality but it could be very complex for you as a Treasury team? Or should I go with a system which is relatively smaller in size and in functionality, but it meets the vision that you have set up for the next five years? That is what I would see in terms of choosing the technology. And then like I said, all organizations are different. Mike, if I talk about my organization, for us, cash visibility and payments, visibility is very important the way our business operates. When we are assessing these different systems, we look at different technologies. We use certain payment aggregators like Stripe and Marketer. Could they actually connect with these aggregators? Could they provide us real time payments or visibility into my cash? So again, I think going back to my message, it's important to see what is your need and making sure that it aligns with it's what is not important for you or not as important is looking at what other company has done. It may be a right system for them. But unless you look into your requirements and scope in detail, make sure the Treasury's vendor that you are meeting with, you do proof of concept with them, make sure the requirements that you are providing, they can actually show you that those can be implemented in the system and then you execute that project. Because I've seen working with different clients that you may have spent a significant amount of dollars in terms of implementing a system, but the effort that was required during the selection of the system was not done right. And that could impact you in the long term because you may not be satisfied with the system and then in a year or two you may already be thinking about moving to a new TMS which may not be the right thing to do.

I think it brings in actually something I did the Dublin conference in our did our treasury career corner live and one of the things that came up about technology actually it was one of the talking points that you know what had happened throughout lockdown and some systems had been found not to be quite as helpful as they might be. I'm not going to name names name a shame because otherwise we'll have a lawsuit on our hands. But it was more that I I referenced a conversation I had with a very dear friend, Jean Philippe Dweller Johnson Controls amazing guy and we were having meal one night and we talked about I was had a speech coming up for Euro Finance and we talked about where technology and they've really utilized it to the max using Mario their amazing systems guy. But what we brought out was about referencing so if you're going to bring a brand new employee you would, you know, minimum two references, probably three or four make sure how have they been conversations just like this. You'll go through all that reference checking. And he said well when you bring in a system which is actually in some ways probably going to cost you more than an individual and can be used by more people and being used across the organization wider sense how many references do you take? How many other customers do you talk, how many do you do a real in depth study of their backgrounds or do you just take what they're saying at face value? And it was great piece of advice and I've now it's more and more more recently as we come out of lockdown I've noticed more people looking at their technology needs and reviewing that and you just talk there about some of the integrations with things like Stripe and everything else and making sure it all works and getting that value. So that's a long prelude to the question but how do you make sure and how would you recommend that any of the listeners really get the most out of their systems or before they even get there? What are the recommendations from you as an experienced person in that sense?

Yeah. So like I said two, three things are very important. One is knowing what you need from your system. Is it just going to be utilized by Treasury? Is it going to be utilized by other teams in the organization which could be accounting, which could be your AP professionals to centralize payments within the tms. So first understanding the scope of what you want and what you want to achieve in the next three to five years, how is your company growing like in Our sense or for our company. Mike, we do not have very heavy FX exposure at this point of time, but we know that we will grow in future. We will look at expanding in international market. So that is one area we would consider that that TMS should be able to support. As we bring on more effects we bring on say we get into a debt and managing the interest rate risk. So knowing the scope and requirements is very important. The second thing is doing the thing for concept is another key area that I would always recommend to all the treasury professionals while choosing the system that when you know your requirements, make sure that those can be actually tested within the system. I know you have a very short timeline in terms of selecting and finalizing the contract with the TMS vendor, but provide those requirements and make sure this vendor can actually commit to implementing those in the system. And then the third one, Mike, like you said, having at least three to four reference check would be highly important. And if you can do a reference check with a company which is in the same industry, least couple of clients like yours and if they can say that this is the right system and they meet most of the requirements that you have, I think that that helps you think about that you're going in the right path. So three things like I said, one is knowing the scope and requirement, second is doing a proof of concept and third is reference check with especially with someone who's in the same industry.

Excellent feedback. That's great. I think not too far from the end of the show. It's been great advice all the way through and she'll we're not going to go into the top tips just yet. I was just going to ask any other areas that you think that treasurers out there should be thinking about not keeping them awake at night, but they should be considering if you like and making sure that they've got an eye on what are the key things that you've obviously got global events happening and lots of other things. But what particular things do you think?

Yeah, that's a great question. I think from my perspective, always having visibility to your cash, how much cash you have in different entities, how are you managing it? Optimizing the use of that cash is very important. Could you centralize the cash and make sure you are taking the right opportunity? Especially in the environment we are in, the yields are significantly higher compared to what we have seen in the last few years. There's an opportunity for companies who have excess cash to invest in securities that can provide good return compared to what we have seen in the Past that's an area I would keenly focus on. And then I think third, like I said, risk management becomes always remains absolutely important for the company. Make sure that you are, if you have cash within the foreign entities, how are you managing it? If you have intercompany payables or receivables or you have different kind of exposures, how you're managing it. And then I think the final thing is, which I think most of the treasurers would talk about, is having visibility to the forecast that you have for cash always is important for the company, especially in this environment where there are so many macroeconomic challenges that you can forecast your cash accurately. You have that relationship with different finance teams so that they can provide you the right information that you need to make sure that your forecast keeps becoming important and accurate for the companies. So I think those are three, four areas that I would advise all treasury professionals to keep a focus on with that makeup.

We'll put your LinkedIn details in the show notes and usually we then say some top tips, but that sounds like they are your top tips or is there any, are there any closing words or final tips that you would give to people out there that they should be thinking about, in your opinion?

I think generally from career advice, Mike, I'll say for treasury professionals, this is Treasury. Treasury is a great field in finance to learn and grow in. I would like, I said advice to the professionals who are young in their career to be more flexible, focus on different things in treasury because that really helps you get into your next role. I think, again, there are important things that you can achieve through that career.

Thank you, sir. As I say, I know that your LinkedIn connections will swell after this. They always do for a number of guests. Actually once said the other day that they literally were just, people were just like, ping, ping. They came out on the Tuesday and they were like, wow, okay. They never had that many inbounds, just out the blue and they're like, oh, that's really nice. And so I know that that's going to be a positive thing. Thank you very much for your time today. It's a great value as always, and look forward to seeing you at another conference soon. So it'll be great to see you. Thank you, sir.

Thank you, Mike. It's been a pleasure.

Hello, it's Mike here again. I hope you enjoyed this week's show. If you did, then maybe you want to follow the show or subscribe, depending on where you listen, whether that's itunes, Spotify or another great place to listen.

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